Formation and Evolution of Pakistan : The Real Story

The Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum is a venue to discuss issues pertaining to India's security environment, her strategic outlook on global affairs and as well as the effect of international relations in the Indian Subcontinent. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
menon s
BRFite
Posts: 721
Joined: 01 May 2010 09:51
Location: Bangalore

Re: Formation and Evolution of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by menon s »

Mountbatten~s first impression on Jinnah!
He gives me the impression of a man who has not thought one single piece of the mechanics of his own Scheme (Pakistan), and he really will get the shock of his life when he comes down to earth
Mountbatten about Suhrawardy CM of Bengal.
" He says that he could with confidence when given enough time persuade bengal to remain united. That he could get Jinnah to agree to that in that event not to join Pakistan"
Jinnahs answer to Mountbatten on the above issue!
"Without hesiatation, i should be delighted! Whats the use of Bengal, without Calcutta! "
Source: The Great Divide,India, Britain and Pakistan, By H V Hodson.

IMHO, cant make out what Jinnah wanted in the end!
menon s
BRFite
Posts: 721
Joined: 01 May 2010 09:51
Location: Bangalore

Re: Formation and Evolution of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by menon s »

George Cunnigham`s notes in his diary, available at Chatham House.
The bloke was the Governor of NWFP and the Kabali Areas.
" Maulana Mohammed Shuhaib (president of jamat ul ulema e sarhad) and Maulana Midrarullah came to see me at Nathiagalli on the 26Th of August, and produced a long draft in Urdu, of the pamphlet that they proposed to issue, both in the districts and in the tribal areas. All good anti congress, anti marxist stuff. They were extremely friendly. Asked them to contact amir of SWAT for any help!
Help, means funds required. Nawab of Bhopal and the Emir of SWAT, were the Hundi wallahs! Theese Brits sought the help of Mad mullahs even then! :x
menon s
BRFite
Posts: 721
Joined: 01 May 2010 09:51
Location: Bangalore

Re: Formation and Evolution of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by menon s »

The Lahore Resolution March 24 1940.
No constitutional plan would be workable or acceptable to the Muslims unless geographical contiguous units are demarcated into regions which should be so constituted with such territorial readjustments as may be necessary. That the areas in which the Muslims are numerically in majority as in the North-Western and Eastern zones of India should be grouped to constitute independent states in which the constituent units shall be autonomous and sovereign.
Pls note the word state`s

When Jinnah was asked to explain it , he said, Punjab will be a sovereign state!
The Resolution importantly and unambiguously asks that all the Muslim majority provinces be converted into fully “independent states” (countries), each autonomous and sovereign in their own right. This statement was a dramatic deviation from the original vision of a single Muslim country, as advocated by Jinnah and other members of the mainly Urdu-speaking faction of the All India Muslim League.

Hussain Shaheed Suhrawardee, a Bengali nationalist and future Prime Minister of Pakistan, for example, stated at Lahore session,
“Each of the provinces in the Muslim majority areas should be accepted as a sovereign state and each province should be given the right to choose its future Constitution or enter into a commonwealth with a neighboring province or provinces”.
Source:K. K. Aziz. The Making of Pakistan: A Study in Nationalism. Lahore: Sang-e-Meel Publications, 1993, p. 56
At a much smaller Legislators’ Convention held in Delhi in April 1946, it was decided that a united state of Pakistan would be formed. Many Bengali Muslim members were unhappy with the change. Abul Hashim, a senior Bengali leader in attendance, objected that the demand for the creation of Pakistan effectively amended the Lahore Resolution. Under its own constitution, only a full session of the All India Muslim League could make amendments. The Legislators’ Convention had no such right.

‘When Abul Hashim made his complaint, Jinnah, the lawyer, could see the problem clearly enough but his first attempt to get around it was feeble in extreme. He suggested that the letter ‘s’ after the word ‘State’ in the Lahore Resolution was a typographical error. When Liaquat Ali Khan produced the original minutes of the meeting Jinnah had to concede that he was wrong and word ‘States’ was indeed in the original text. He then fobbed off Abul Hashim’s objection by assuring the convention that the Lahore Resolution had not been amended. The resolution, he said, would be the document laid before the future Pakistani Constituent Assembly that, as a sovereign body would take all final decisions.’
Sources : K. K. Aziz. The Murder of History: A Critique of History Textbooks Used in Pakistan. Lahore: Vanguard, 2000, p. 62.
Sources : Owen Bennett Jones. Pakistan: Eye of the Storm. New Haven: Yale University Press, 2002, p. 151.
Sources: G M Sayed: A nation In Chains.

Jinnah the great statesman! talking about typographical errors, on that seminal document that announced the DNA of Pakistan! I feel like beating the shit out Gandhi and Nehru, ******** , you did nor have the backbone to stand up to such Charlatans and straw men! Shame on you.
svinayak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14223
Joined: 09 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Formation and Evolution of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by svinayak »

menon s wrote:
Hussain Shaheed Suhrawardee, a Bengali nationalist and future Prime Minister of Pakistan, for example, stated at Lahore session,
“Each of the provinces in the Muslim majority areas should be accepted as a sovereign state and each province should be given the right to choose its future Constitution or enter into a commonwealth with a neighboring province or provinces”.
They had lot of freedom on their imagination to create their own version of the map. They could in one shot completely destroy the entire age old heritage and historical culture of the land just by imagination. No other country has faced such an assault on their history.
svinayak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14223
Joined: 09 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Formation and Evolution of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by svinayak »

menon s wrote:Mountbatten~s first impression on Jinnah!
He gives me the impression of a man who has not thought one single piece of the mechanics of his own Scheme (Pakistan), and he really will get the shock of his life when he comes down to earth
Mountbatten about Suhrawardy CM of Bengal.
" He says that he could with confidence when given enough time persuade bengal to remain united. That he could get Jinnah to agree to that in that event not to join Pakistan"


IMHO, cant make out what Jinnah wanted in the end!
This is a good question. - cant make out what Jinnah wanted in the end!

The British gave Jinnah/ML blanket wish to redraw and create their own imaginary country however they want. This is the fundamental thing which fueled this murderous rage within the Muslim league and Islamists. They did not know what they wanted in the end but they wanted to remove what was already existing.

This overlord position( socially mfg by the British) to build their dream project without any sense of control or wishes of the local people or the heritage of the region is the defining character of Pakistan. This is seen even today in the leadership of the country and how they address India and define themselves. Some of the Islamists also talk about "How India belongs to them", "all the muslims and their regions belong to them", "they own the history" and "they decide the future and peace" etc.
svinayak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14223
Joined: 09 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Formation and Evolution of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by svinayak »

menon s wrote: When you have a hypocrite as the father of the Nation, what will the children do?
They are the orphan children of Jinnah - JS
menon s
BRFite
Posts: 721
Joined: 01 May 2010 09:51
Location: Bangalore

Re: Formation and Evolution of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by menon s »

The saddest fact is that we could not see through the British Perfidy? and halt it. Perhaps Veersavarkar alone saw it coming, but who was willing to listen to him?
A_Gupta
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12323
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31
Contact:

Re: Formation and Evolution of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by A_Gupta »

Punjab riots
http://www.newageislam.com/NewAgeIslamA ... cleID=2700
Let us see what Mushtaque Ahmad Wajdi (then a senior official in the railways) says in this connection in his autobiography:

“(During that period), Sardar Shaukat Hayat called me and told me that serious riots were going to happen for which weapons must be collected. Those would come from the Frontier Province but the co-operation of the railway staff was required. I gathered the Muslims of the line staff. They showed their readiness and swore that they would not retreat even if they had to go to jail or even lay down their lives. A committee was formed and responsibilities were distributed. I gave all the details to Sardar Shaukat Hayat. He told me to go to Delhi at once and apprise Liaqat Ali Khan of the developments. I reached Delhi the following day. Liaqat Ali Khan was the Finance Minister in the Muslim League-Congress coalition government. He probably had before-hand information of my arrival. Seeing my card he called me and listened to all the details attentively. He promised me further instructions and asked me to keep it a secret. During the same time I was appointed the deputy secretary in the Finance ministry and shifted from Lahore to Delhi. I do not know how useful the organisation formed by me was but from the large scale killings that took place afterwards; I can guess that it must have helped to an extent.”

It can be said that such a serious allegation cannot be made against an important political leader merely on the basis of a statement made by a government official. It would be appropriate to get the testimony of Major Gen. (Retd) Shahid Hamid. In his autobiography, he writes:

“The riots against the Hindus and the Sikhs started in Pindi. At that time it was common knowledge that a young Muslim League leader, who was a retired army officer and a scion of a big feudal family, started the ‘work’ in the love of his community and as an Islamic duty. In those days, the Muslims considered this something done in the love of community. When I met Brigadier Noor Ahmad Hussain in connection of the book being discussed, he told me that he had coincidentally met the leader, who was now among the aged politicians, in Londo in 1980s. He had taken him to his flat in Hyde Park. The aged politician neither denied his involvement nor regretted it, nor did he betray any sense of repentance over the riots. Rather, Noor Ahmad Hussain was surprised that even after such a long time he defended it, understandably because he had greatly benefitted from the riots.
Samudragupta
BRFite
Posts: 625
Joined: 12 Nov 2010 23:49
Location: Some place in the sphere

Re: Formation and Evolution of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by Samudragupta »

Isn't it the article a little stereotype? I would be interested to know how many bengalis were really there in the "Bengalised" BIA pre 1857......the article actully felt like a little bit propagandist because it resembles too much with the old falut line....remember Indraprastha/Magadh, Pratihara/Palas...isn't it Punjab/Bengal matches with the faultline?

But agree with the general idea of the article.....the ultimate aim of the British of Punjabisation of the subcontinent...and to use it in Hindukush.....
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59878
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Formation and Evolution of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by ramana »

X-post....
Karna_A wrote:There are 2 types of generals in TSP: Pakistani and Islamists

A nationalistic Pakistani general would never attempt a nook war with India since in return TSP gets destroyed. That's why terror is a low cost alternative. It's not going anywhere but it is so far sufficeint to keep Generals H&D.
However, for growing Islamist Generals, TSP destruction is a small price to pay for India's severe wounding. So Islamist General can surely be part of a nook attack on India.
Slowly TSPA is becoming Islamist from being Pakistani.
To avoid the 2nd types from being adventurous, it's best to take down whole of West Asia as a retaliation. That would stop the Islamists, as that would mean Middle East is back to 6th century instead of 7th Century.

And it's 100% guarenteed that if TSP does attack India with nooks, Agni V will be flying over Riyadh to deliver flowers and more.
If burning of just 50+ people in Godhra can burn the whole of Gujarat state, or 1992/93 can bring the whole of Maharastra into fire, then 5 Million casualties would bring a global slaughter by surviving Indians never seen before.

This whole concept of Indic being timid is a fallacy perpetuated by British and communist education which has been repeatedly proved otherwise. An Indic under pressure is basically a mad man, strongly believing in reincarnation who is capable of destroying anything and everything is his path.

As for India, it's simply indestructible. Even the Andaman Islands are six times the size of Singapore.
Partly correct. The Islamist generals want a new Khilafat estblished with TSP as the core state, the new Medina.

Its still a work in process. We are in the stream and cant see the flow.

The first goal is to have Islamist takeover the state. The initial steps were Zia's Islamization of the Army. A parallel step is the Wahabandization of non military society. These two moves will ensure that Islamist takeover.
The next goal is to spread the deen Westwards so eventually all WANA bows to new Khalifa.
KSA and West think they are stabilizing the TSP but they are feeding the jihadi snake which will devour them. Its not a cobra but a python.



Taking out Mecca etc plays to their goals.
devesh
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5129
Joined: 17 Feb 2011 03:27

Re: Formation and Evolution of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by devesh »

^^^

in short, Pakistan is going to become the perfect example of Wahhabism. just like the Wahhabis destroyed Muhammad's home, tombs, family tombs, and many other tombs etc of Muslim saints in Arabia, so also Pak will follow in those footsteps. what you have is eventually Pakis will start thinking that their fellow Arabs have become too un-Islamic and do to Arabia and West of Pak what those same regions did to India.

question is when Pak finally arrives at that point, should India watch and have fun while Pak destroys their fellow Arab birathers, or should India counter them to makes sure that a Khilafa doesn't form???
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59878
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Formation and Evolution of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by ramana »

If you look at financial markets a bubble can be spotted only when its five to ten times the normal growth. You have the noral growth line on whihc the bubble is overlayed. And unless you look at data five-ten years backwards you wont recognise the bubble.
In same way TSP has to sink five to ten times the normal before natural systems kick in to restore the 'normal' trendline.
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Formation and Evolution of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by shiv »

devesh wrote:^^^

in short, Pakistan is going to become the perfect example of Wahhabism. just like the Wahhabis destroyed Muhammad's home, tombs, family tombs, and many other tombs etc of Muslim saints in Arabia, so also Pak will follow in those footsteps. what you have is eventually Pakis will start thinking that their fellow Arabs have become too un-Islamic and do to Arabia and West of Pak what those same regions did to India.

question is when Pak finally arrives at that point, should India watch and have fun while Pak destroys their fellow Arab birathers, or should India counter them to makes sure that a Khilafa doesn't form???

Could Pakistan be the ultimate kafir revenge on islam? Mutants whose brains have been infiltrated. They used to be "Indian culture+Islam" until their brains were invaded and invited to remove all culture leaving culture free monsters who would attack anything for not being like them.

Only the Chinese who destroyed almost all of their own culture in the cultural revolution can empathise with these beasts - but Chinese culture is not totally dead. All culture is dead in Pakistan.
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59878
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Formation and Evolution of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by ramana »

JRR Tolkien created the Orc characters for such mindless violence.

TSP is getting orcised.
svinayak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14223
Joined: 09 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Formation and Evolution of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by svinayak »

shiv wrote:

Could Pakistan be the ultimate kafir revenge on islam? Mutants whose brains have been infiltrated. They used to be "Indian culture+Islam" until their brains were invaded and invited to remove all culture leaving culture free monsters who would attack anything for not being like them.

Only the Chinese who destroyed almost all of their own culture in the cultural revolution can empathise with these beasts - but Chinese culture is not totally dead. All culture is dead in Pakistan.
When a society reaches fascist level then they destroy their culture. There is nothing else but to kill their own
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59878
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Formation and Evolution of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by ramana »

X-post...

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 8#p1107388
ramana wrote:Shiv, I am now reading books on the early Caliphs after Muhammad. I would like to draw some analogies after explaining what I learned.

One interesting phenomeon in Islamic society is along as the pure are invovled in external jihad (razza) or outward facing they are all happy. When they have to take on the inner jihad/struggle they turn extremely violent. The reason is they think the outward jihad is blunted as they are not adhering/following the book.

When Ali, the fourth Caliph, met the forces of Muwayyia in Syria and ended up in a parley (reasons are irrelevant here), he lost the support of his adherents led by Wahab called Kharjites or Rejectionists (not Wahaab of Riyadh, who came ~1000 years later with same idea). These Kharjites took up the law unto themsleves and would attack others claiming to be more Islamic then the rest. Their standard tactic was to declare the other as apostate and kill them.

Ali eventually defeated them but didn't eliminate them to his own disadvantage. He got murdered by a Kharjite who screamed the apostate charge while killing him with a poisoned sword.

Now come to TSP. In 1971, the Pak Army got a massive defeat but was not destroyed thanks to US intervention and lack of understanding.
Bhutto came to power and stabilised the TSP and prevented its fracture.
Zia ul Haq deposed him and called him a traitor and hanged him. Zia then let lose the Islamist/Rejectionist meme in the TSPA and larger society. In effect he started the Kharjitification of Pakistan. This was because they could not fight outwards ie the greater jihad got blunted and the inner jihad to better themsleves could not be tolerated.

Its the Kharjite meme that propels Zia ul Haq kind of Islamic leaders and
Qadri kind of killers/murderers.
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59878
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Formation and Evolution of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by ramana »

X-post...
SBajwa wrote:Pakistan as in its current format has its origin in Naqshbandis during Shahjehan and Aurungzeb times. These guys believed in violence (Aurungzeb banned music and persecuted poets like Bulleh Shah and Waris Shah) and all out conversion of non-islamic to their version of islam. They only they intermingled with their own like minded folks (Naqshbandis and later Deobandis/Wahabis and now Salafis) they also interbred (marrying first cousins on both sides)

The goals they are looking to

1. Get Salafi Dar-ul-Islam state.

2. Use violence and force whenever possible to get the purest Islamic Dar-ul-Islam state., where the untolerated minorities are various sects of the arabian faith (others are not allowed to survive). And these untolerated minorities are there for a reason which is to be subservient to salafis.

3. To get to the 1. use all ways/means possible (changing laws in Dar-ul-Harm states), seducing/raping/enslaving their women., begging/borrowing or stealing the non-islamic money. Thus the excuse for the money that Pakistani army gets from USA is all legal Islamic war pillage as they are fighting "american" war by killing/chasing their own people.

4. Increase your population by marrying your own sisters/cousins., thus genetic makeup of next generation will get even more "Salafi".


Thus over the centuries their genetic make up is what we in Real East Punjab call in the truest sense "Classic B*chods".

Once again, due to generations of inter breeding this pakistani breed is exactly like a "selectively breeding ferocious wild boars to make them even more ferocious at each successive breeding" Thus the current Pig hunt needs all the hunting parties (India, Israel and USA) to launch a synchronized attack. There is no other possible way but to have a successful hunt and a big party with a pig roast.
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59878
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Formation and Evolution of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by ramana »

x-post...
NRao wrote:I am not sure where to post this - it is a far serious topic for a meandering thread like this one:

Pakistan’s army battles enemy within
The Pakistan military is under attack: from militants who fight full-scale battles daily with its troops; from a US administration suspicious about its loyalties; and most alarmingly from within, where there is growing evidence of dissent and radicalisation in its ranks.

and
shaardula wrote:i think we ought to get to the bottom of 'understanding paki taliban'. pakistan created one taliban. and that was intended to be afg centric. but the current reality is there are good talibs and bad talibs. in my mind good Ts are those who operate within TSP and bad Ts are those who operate in AFG. official account is opposite.

but why did the Ts split? and how have they managed not to cross each others path? and how come TSP has managed to force/convince its munna Ts to act against the other camp?

mushi bending over backwards in 2001 is said to be one reason. but lal masjid also seems to a seminal event.

i think getting to the bottom of this good taliban thingie is likely to be insightful.
svinayak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14223
Joined: 09 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Formation and Evolution of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by svinayak »

Comment on the FP article
Dear Munshi,

Islamists in the sub-continent believe in the two nation theory which is one of the most bigoted propositions of the 20th century. And one of the greatest bigots who believed in this theory was Hussain Saheed Surawardy, the hero of Bengali muslims, who after directly inciting riots during partition as the Chief Minister of Bengal (killing thousands of Hindus and Muslims) had to finally plead with Gandhi to save muslims.

When the supreme moment came (prime minister of Pakistan) the anti-bengali racist Ayub Khan expelled him to Lebanon and poisoned him.

This is the gold standard for bigots AND inciter to religious hatred AND an useful idiot. But as a famous historian you already knew that.

Good day to you.

regards
------------------------
Who is a bigot?
@GOLDENMIDDLE:

Actually my comment was meant for SHAN94 but for some reason it appeared after your remarks.

Anyway,
You are speaking of events that happened 40-50 years ago and without any background or proof. The Two Nation Theory is still relevant today and can be adapted to fit the new situation. I believe it should not have been a two nation theory but a several nation theory. The British Raj should have been broken up into 15-20 new countries based on religion, ethnicity, culture and language
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2 ... ent-673181
So what is the real reason for India's inhuman border fencing policy with Bangladesh? The obvious rationale for the policy (apart from India's inherent hegemonic tendencies) is preparation for war with China. Under the subservient regime of the present Awami League government under Sheikh Hasina there have been several strategically significant deals already signed or under negotiation with New Delhi such as transit facilities and access to ports as well as other vital infrastructure. These are all intended to help supply the Indian military located in the North East who are presently in a face off with Chinese troops (across the border from disputed Arunachal Pradesh) in Tibet. In the event of war, India could easily access Bangladesh to reach its army positioned in the North East but which is presently limited by the narrow Shilguri pass (or chicken neck) which could be easily blocked during a protracted conflict with China. Having access through Bangladesh provides a convenient alternative route to the North East region. But what has any of this to do with the border fencing policy? The fencing policy has a military objective to fence in Bangladeshis who might prefer to side with China and who could help incite rebellion in the insurgency prone North East states of India in time of war. It is in India's vital national interests to completely isolate and hermetically seal Bangladesh from the North East states. Bangladeshis generally resent Indian expansionist and hegemonic policies (see The India Doctrine (1947-2007)) and could easily find common cause with a sympathetic China. The strategic alignment of Bangladesh under the Awami League with India also has some obvious negative consequences for the country. Bangladesh would be inevitably drawn into a war it does not want and against a country it does not want to fight and has no serious differences with (i.e. China).
RamaY
BRF Oldie
Posts: 17249
Joined: 10 Aug 2006 21:11
Location: http://bharata-bhuti.blogspot.com/

Re: Formation and Evolution of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by RamaY »

ramana wrote: The first goal is to have Islamist takeover the state. The initial steps were Zia's Islamization of the Army. A parallel step is the Wahabandization of non military society. These two moves will ensure that Islamist takeover.
The next goal is to spread the deen Westwards so eventually all WANA bows to new Khalifa.
KSA and West think they are stabilizing the TSP but they are feeding the jihadi snake which will devour them. Its not a cobra but a python.



Taking out Mecca etc plays to their goals.
:mrgreen: I posted this vision for Pakistan more than a year ago in one of the TSP threads. That is why "Talibanization of Pakistan" is in India's interests. It removes the pretenses and makes things clear to Indians. The only sore losers would be WKK types.
Samudragupta
BRFite
Posts: 625
Joined: 12 Nov 2010 23:49
Location: Some place in the sphere

Re: Formation and Evolution of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by Samudragupta »

Acharya wrote:Comment on the FP article
Dear Munshi.....
Acharya ji,
The person Munshi is a known ISI and DGFI stooge...he likes to identify himeself as lawyer...created a self goal through a book called "India Doctrine"...u can find more abt this jewel by googling around....don't think he shud be brought in BRF.... :rotfl:
Last edited by ramana on 30 Jun 2011 20:56, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: No need for quoting the entire post. Ramana
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59878
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Formation and Evolution of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by ramana »

X-post...
ravi_ku wrote:I was reading about the criminal tribes in wiki of which Hurs tribe in Sindh Pakistan was one of them. Pretty interesting recent history, they have.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magsi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurs

Reading this made me understood, why BB wed a Baloch guy, Mr 10%. The hurs I bet support the army (their only possible emancipators) and Nawaz. The magsi, a baloch tribe, but present in Sinah is on the side of BB. These two tribes repress the other whenever in power.

The governor of Baloch is the head of magsi tribe & his brother a minister in Sindh.

http://archives.dawn.com/2008/09/23/nat12.htm
a 2008 article about activities of magsi force.

http://www.thebalochhal.com/2010/12/we- ... nor-magsi/
The magsi head threatening to unleash the force on the true freedom loving baloch.
Virupaksha
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 3110
Joined: 28 Jun 2007 06:36

Re: Formation and Evolution of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by Virupaksha »

Zardari and Magsi tribes originally from Baloch, but settled in Sindh are the landed elite/Zamindars of the western Sindh (nawabshah district), for their co-operation with the british. The bhuttos were the zamindars from the north western Sindh. The Zardaris and Bhuttos both were filthy rich even before marriage. Their marriage was the consolidation of the elite of western Sindh, i.e. the left bank of Sindhu river.

Junejos were the original rulers of eastern Sindh. Junejos seem to aligned/follow Sunni Sufi Hurs of PirPajaro and the british calling the hurs a criminal tribe to control them. After the british left, hurs aligned with Fatima Jinnah during 1965 election against Ayub. After Ayub's victory and during the 65 war, they seemed to have changed sides to align with the army. Remember they are near the Indian border and it is their lands which are in direct Indian line of fire. Muhammad Khan Junejo, the PM during Zia rule was a Hur. A hur faction not aligned with him formed PML(F) and has been winning 4-5 seats in all eletions. This faction consolidated into PML(Q) last year, i.e. the continued army support.

My understanding from this is,
i) Changes in Sindh will only happen when there is a full on fight between these two, (Zardari-Bhutto) & hur elite, allowing the rise of third faction, the non-hur eastern Sindhis. These changes would have already started. Any article showing Sindhis not accepting Zardaris as their own is a symptom of this.
ii) There are Balochis and then there are Balochis. Zardaris/ Magsis are the fake Balochis who lord over Balochistan, whereas the Balochis not bordering Sindh are the ones being crushed.
iv) I have read a pdf yesterday of the farming structure in Balochistan & Sindh. Slavery of haris is omnipresent in Sindh & only in Sindh bordered Balochistan to the local chief whose "legal" share of produce varies from 50-75%. Those from the interior, like the Bugtis, many of them have VOLUNTARILY stopped taking their mearge share of 20%, with the coming of Sui gas.
v) If the islamic memes via Zia,ZAB & co wouldnt have crushed the communist meme, this area is ripe for pickings for such an "equalizing" meme. I expect Zardaris to move towards a consolidation with the ulema and that changes will happen in the next 5-7 years when the BB's legacy of revolt against Zia can be put in a suitcase and locked.
ManuT
BRFite
Posts: 595
Joined: 22 Apr 2005 23:50

Re: Formation and Evolution of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by ManuT »

Straight Faced Liar Part 2: Leaders of Pakisstan

Pakistan has evolved into TSP after much bumps and humps along the road. One consistent theme has been the 'commitment' of its rulers to 'introduce' democracy.

Musharraf's attempts at bringing it to his people are too fresh in our memory. I took a very brief relook at history for interviews of videos, as in the past the medium has been print.

There are 2 things I find remarkable among the very short list of it's leaders.
1. The absolute ease with which TSP rulers are able to lie.
2. The weird ways in which the past rulers (the person with the real power) have been made to give up power.

Jinnah died virtually under the house arrest of his right hand Liaqat Ali Khan. His end was truly befitting the nation he had created, in a rickety broken down ambulance with 2 people by his side.

The right hand man, Liaqat Ali Khan was killed by assassin.
Suhrawardy (If I can call him he left hand man) deposed by Auyb died in exile in lebanon (poisoned?/ heart attack)

Next came Ayub, left in disgrace after 1965 after bleating like a lamb (died of STD?).
Yahya, again, left in disgrace after 1971.
ZAB was hanged by his own blue eyed boy Zia in 1979.
Zia died in plane crash (taken out by KGB?)
BB, 2 soft coups against her and in the end bumped off by strategic asses.
NZ, another unique distinction, 1 soft coup, 1 hard coup.
In 2008 Kammandu's Musharraf was kicked out.

Zardari has big shoes to fill...

The narrative has been maintained.
<<Rewind<<

Zia, Gen fair play, previously posted.
Of course, we know today that the verdict was fixed by him and we also know he didn't quit till he was ejected by a higher power.


ZAB, Mr 1000 year war, before the noose was in the news.
Settle disputes peacefully like West Germany (without resorting to arms)
[youtube]JtujAff_T4s&feature=related[/youtube]

Shimla


"Go to hell, children of pigs" to Bangladeshis video (which didn't play for me on the TSP thread's page)
[youtube]51I1WWXH0Gc&NR=1[/youtube]

Yahya, before Dec 1971, never out of touch with reality, until kicked out.


Ayub, before IWT, the democrat introducing 'basic democracy'. When he was sabotaging Fatima Jinnah.


Suhrawardy, 1957, (I am sure this one would be a new one) with little inking of what was to come. Even with East Pakistan's revenues, 40% budget was US funded!!? Parts of it are a little dated, but full marks for the confidence. (Also, remember this guy was the chief instigator in 1946, but I am keeping that aside at this point)
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Formation and Evolution of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by shiv »

Thanks for this excellent compilation Manu T. Although I have seen all but one (Suhrawardy) - having them in one place is useful. Thanks for taking the trouble.
svinayak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14223
Joined: 09 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Formation and Evolution of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by svinayak »

ManuT wrote:

Suhrawardy, 1957, (I am sure this one would be a new one) with little inking of what was to come. Even with East Pakistan's revenues, 40% budget was US funded!!? Parts of it are a little dated, but full marks for the confidence. (Also, remember this guy was the chief instigator in 1946, but I am keeping that aside at this point)
This film shows an interview with Pakistani Prime Minister Suhrawardy when he talked about the political issues that faced his country.

This is very important video from 1957 which is the year when Nehru proved that India with the second election is here to stay and this totally changed the geo political plans of the west.

The west had to make sure that Pakistan from that year onwards was strong and able to survive the new state of India. Pakistan was allowed to be take over by Military Ayub Khan after 1958 and the constituent assembly was dissolved and in 1960 the new Capital Islamabad was created near Cantt Rawalpindi

The interview target audience is the military industrial complex of US under Preseident Eisenhower who had to decide to fund Pakistan for long term to keep the middle east safe and also keep Nehur under check.

The repeated question s on Kashmir and differences with India was to bring this to highlight to audience to support funding of Pakistan beyond its means for military. He talks about Indian troops in the border in 1950 and 1951.

The questions on budget and military was to show the audience that Pakistan can be bought easily as a client state for the super power USA. This long term decision was made in 1957 and not in 1971. The objective has continued to increase over the decades with Pak being the regional pole for power and could assert its power in the region.

India was in the minds of the US policy planners right from 1950s and what India can do in middle east which is the vital interest of USA.



India was being tested for 10 years after independence for stability.
The weakness of Pakistan shows up in 1957 itself.
svinayak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14223
Joined: 09 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Formation and Evolution of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by svinayak »



Old is gold! IN 1959, the first ever visit by a U.S. President to Pakistan happened. Take a look as President Dwight D. Eisenhower's carriage travels from the airport into Karachi, and crowds along the street and from buildings cheer him. Click to watch this rarely seen historic video of a great moment in U.S.-Pakistan relations.

This is the most striking visit when US was trying to get Pak for cold war alliance
also notice the coincidence of PRC premier Chu En Lai visiting JLN from 1957 -1960
THis is the same time when US was trying to get Pak into its orbit completely
ManuT
BRFite
Posts: 595
Joined: 22 Apr 2005 23:50

Re: Formation and Evolution of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by ManuT »

Shiv sir,

Thanks, I know it is a bit cumbersome but as you said, in one place, and readers can decide what to watch. There are not many to begin with from that era. We do not see many faces talking lose sight of a person's 'intent'. I mostly, kept out the speeches as those are mostly loud noises except the where ZAB loses it.

It doesn't matter if TSP can't implode or explode doen't matter what one calls, I think what people mean is that TSP cannot take off.

It cannot progress without tying it economy without tying it to India's. That won't happen till it takes Kashmir off the table, which it is unable to so. Like a snake eating its tail so it goes.

Acharya wrote:1957 is the year when Nehru proved that India with the second election is here to stay and this totally changed the geo political plans of the west.
Exactly my thought, you can practically see the change of relationship from Pakistan's side giving out the assurances that they have become experts at. US cluelessly asking 'I hope you can not taking our money because we are giving you these dangerous weapons' you can see the ignorance of the interviewers coming through (no fault of theirs) as it is still a distant part of the world (world travel was still mostly by ship).

Mr Suhrawardy saying 'No, no at all' while thinking, I guess, 'they are not only giving us weapons but free money too, what suckers'.

India's Constitution has been working for 7 years at this point, elections held, etc and here these guys are waxing about democracy and the Brit influence.
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59878
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Formation and Evolution of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by ramana »

abhishek_sharma wrote:The Quranic Concept of War: JOSEPH C. MYERS

Parameters, Winter 2006-2007
The Quranic Concept of War, by Brigadier General S. K. Malik of the Pakistani Army provides readers with unequalled insight. Originally published in Pakistan in 1979, most available copies are found in India, or in small non-descript Muslim bookstores.

One major point to ponder, when thinking about The Quranic Concept of War, is the title itself. The Quran is presumed to be the revealed word of God as spoken through his chosen prophet, Mohammed. According to Malik, the Quran places warfighting doctrine and its theory in a much different category than western thinkers are accustomed to, because it is not a theory of war derived by man, but of God. This is God’s warfighting principles and commandments revealed.
Malik’s attempts to distill God’s doctrine for war through the examples of the Prophet. By contrast, the closest that Clausewitz comes to divine presentation is in his discussion of the trinity: the people, the state, and the military. In the Islamic context, the discussion of war is at the level of revealed truth and example, well above theory—God has no need to theorize. Malik notes, “As a complete Code of Life, the Holy Quran gives us a philosophy of war as well. . . . This divine philosophy is an integral part of the total Quranic ideology.”

...

For purposes of this review, the term “doctrine” refers to both religious and broad strategic approaches, not methods and procedures. Malik’s work is a treatise with historical, political, legalistic, and moralistic ramifications on Islamic warfare. It seemingly is without parallel in the western sense of warfare since the “Quran is a source of eternal guidance for mankind.” ...

Malik’s arguments are clearly parochial, often more editorial than scholarly, and his tone is decidedly confident and occasionally supremacist. The reach and influence of the author’s work is not clear although one might believe that given the idealism of his treatise, his approaches to warfare, and the role and ends of “terror” his text may resonate with extremist and radicals prone to use terroristic violence to accomplish their ends. For that reason alone, the book is worth studying. ...

General Zia states that all Muslims play a role in jihad, a mainstream concept of the Quran, that jihad in terms of warfare is a collective responsibility of the Muslim ummah, and is not restricted to soldiers. ...

In the preface Ambassador Brohi details what might be startling to many readers. He states that Malik has made “a valuable contribution to Islamic jurisprudence” or Islamic law, and an “analytic restatement of the Quranic wisdom on the subject of war and peace.” ...

Brohi then defines jihad, “The most glorious word in the Vocabulary of Islam is Jehad, a word which is untranslatable in English but, broadly speaking, means ‘striving’, ‘struggling’, ‘trying’ to advance the Divine causes or purposes.” He introduces a somewhat cryptic concept when he explains man’s role in a “Quranic setting” as energetically combating forces of evil or what may be called, “counter-initiatory” forces which are at war with the harmony and the purpose of life on earth. For the true Muslin the harmony and purpose in life are only possible through man’s ultimate
submission to God’s will, that all will come to know, recognize, and profess Mohammed as the Prophet of God. Man must recognize the last days and acknowledge tawhid, the oneness of God. ...

Brohi places jihad in the context of communal if not imperial obligation; both controversial formulations:

"When a believer sees that someone is trying to obstruct another believer from traveling the road that leads to God, spirit of Jehad requires that such a man who is imposing obstacles should be prevented from doing so and the obstacles placed by him should also be removed, so that mankind may be freely able to negotiate its own path that leads to Heaven.” To do otherwise, “by not striving to clear or straighten the path we [Muslims] become passive spectators of the counter-initiatory forces imposing a blockade in the way of those who mean to keep their faith with God."

This viewpoint appears to reflect the classic, collective duty within jihad doctrine, to defend the Islamic community from threats—the concept of defensive jihad. Brohi is saying much more than that; however, he is attempting to delineate the
duty—the proactive duty—to clear the path for Islam. It is necessary not only to defend the individual believer if he is being hindered in his faith, but also to remove the obstacles of those counter-initiatory forces hindering his Islamic development. This begs the question of what is actually meant by the initiatory forces. The answer is clear to
Brohi; the force of initiative is Islam and its Muslim members. “It is the duty of a believer to carry forward the Message of God and to bring it to notice of his fellow-men in handsome ways. But if someone attempts to obstruct him from doing so he is entitled as a matter of defense, to retaliate.”

This formulation would appear to turn the concept of defense on its head. To the extent that a Muslim may proclaim Islam and proselytize, or Islam, as a faith, seeks to extend its invitation and reach—initiate its advance—but is unable to do so, then that represents an overt threat justifying—a defensive jihad. According to Brohi, this does not result in the “ordinary wars which mankind has been fighting for the sake of either revenge or for securing . . . more land or more booty . . . [this] striving must be [is] for the sake of God. Wars in the theory of Islam are . . . to advance God’s purposes on earth, and invariably they are defensive in character.” In other words, everywhere the message of God and Islam is or can be hindered from expansion, resisted or opposed by some “obstruction” (a term not clearly defined) Islam is intrinsically entitled to defend its manifest destiny.

While his logic is controversial, Brohi is not unique in his extrapolation. His theory in fact reflects the argument of Rashid Rida, a conservative disciple of the Egyptian Muhammad Abduh. ...


No Nation is Sovereign

The exegesis of the term jihad is often debated. Some apologists make clear that nowhere in the Quran does the term “Holy War” exist; that is true, but it is also irrelevant. War in Islam is either just or unjust and that justness depends on the ends of war. Brohi, and later Malik, make clear that the ends of war in Islam or jihad are to fulfill God’s divine purpose. Not only should that be a holy purpose, it must be a just war in order to be “Holy War.”

The next dualism Brohi presents is that of Dar al-Islam and Dar al-Harb, the house of submission and the house of war. He describes the latter, as “perpetuating defiance of the Lord.” While explaining that conditions for war in Islam are limited (a constrained set of circumstances) he notes that “in Islam war is waged to establish supremacy of the Lord only when every other argument has failed to convince those who reject His will and work against the very purpose of the creation of
mankind.” Brohi quotes the Quranic manuscript Surah, al-Tawba:

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya
with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."


Acknowledging western critics who believe that Islam is in a state of perpetual struggle with the non-Islamic world, Brohi counters in a clearly dismissive tone by explaining that man is the slave to God, and defying God is treason under Islamic law. Those who defy God should be removed from humanity like a cancerous growth. Islam requires believers “to invite non-believers to the fold of Islam” by using “persuasion” and “beautiful methods.” He continues, “the first duty” of a Muslim is dawa, a proclamation to conversion by “handsome ways.” It is only after refusing dawa and the invitation to Islam that “believers have no option but in self-defense to wage a war against those threatening aggression.”

Obviously, much turns on how threats and aggression are characterized. It is difficult to understand, however, based on the structure of his argument, that Brohi views non-believers and their states as requiring conversion over time by peaceful
means; and when that fails, by force. He is echoing the doctrine of Abd al-Salam Faraj, author of Al-Farida al-Ghaibah, better known as The Neglected Duty, a work that is widely read throughout the Muslim world.

Finally, Brohi examines the concept of the ummah and the international system. “The idea of Ummah of Mohammad, the Prophet of Islam, is incapable of being realized within the framework of territorial states.” This is a consistent view that
underpins many works on the concept of the Islamic state.

For Muslims, the ummah is a transcendent religious and cultural society united and reflecting the unity (tawhid) of Islam; ...

With respect to the “law of war and peace in Islam” Brohi writes it “is as old as the Quran itself. . . . ” In his analysis of the law of nations and their international dealings, he emphasizes that in “Islamic international law this conduct [war and
peace] is, strictly speaking, regulated between Muslims and non-Muslims, there being, from Islamic perspective, no other nation. . . . ”
In other words, war is between Muslims and non-Muslims and not in actuality between states. It is transnational. He adds, “In Islam, of course, no nation is sovereign since Allah alone is the only sovereign in Whom all authority vests.”

Here Brohi is echoing what Islamic scholars such as Majid Khadduri have described as the “dualism of the universal religion and universal state that is Islam.”

The Divine Philosophy on War

...

Challenging Clausewitz’s notion that “policy” provides the context and boundary of war; Malik says it is the reverse, “‘war’ forced policy to define and determine its own parameters” and since that discussion focuses on parochial issues such as national interests, and the vagaries of state to state relations it is a lesser perspective. In the divine context of the Quran war orients on the spread of “justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere.” According to the author war is to be fought aggressively, slaughter is not the worst evil. In the course of war every opportunity for peace should be pursued and reciprocated. That is every remonstrance of peace by the enemies of Islam, but only as prescribed by the Quran’s “clear-cut philosophy and methodology” for preserving peace. ...

It also established the precedent that Muslims may conclude treaties with non-believers, but only for a temporary period. ...


The author’s point is that peace between states has only secular, not divine ends; and peace in an Islamic context is achieved only for the promotion of Islam. As the Prophet gained control of Mecca he decreed that non-believers could assemble or watch over the Sacred Mosque. He later consolidated power over Arabia and many who had not yet accepted Islam, “including Christians and Jew, [they] were given the option to choose between war and submission.” These non-believers were required to pay a poll-tax or jizya and accept the status of dhimmitude [servitude to Islam] in order to continue practicing their faith. According to Malik the taxes were merely symbolic and insignificant. In summarizing this relationship the author states, “the object of war is to obtain conditions of peace, justice, and faith. To do so it is essential to destroy the forces of oppression and persecution.”

...
The Nature of War

Malik, like Brohi, acknowledges critics who say that Islam has been “spread by the sword,” but he responds that Islam is spread through restraint in war and in “the use of force [that] have no parallel.”...

Strike Terror into their Hearts

Malik uses examples to demonstrate that Allah will strike “terror into the hearts of Unbelievers.” At this point he begins to develop his most controversial and conjectural Quranic theory related to warfare—the role of terror. Readers need to understand that the author is thinking and writing in strategic terms, not in the vernacular of battles or engagements. Malik continues, “when God wishes to impose His will on his enemies, He chooses to do so by casting terror into their hearts.

He cites another verse, “against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including
steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts) of the enemies of Allah . . . .” Malik’s strategic synthesis is specific: “the Quranic military strategy thus enjoins us to prepare ourselves for war to the utmost in order to strike terror into the hearts of the enemies, known or hidden, while guarding ourselves from being terror-stricken by the enemy.”Terror is an effect; the end-state. ...

“Respect” therefore is achieved psychologically by, as Brohi suggested earlier, “beautiful” and “handsome ways” or by the strategic application of terror. When examining the theme of the preparatory stage of war, Malik talks of
the “war of preparation being waged . . . in peace,” meaning that peacetime preparatory activities are in fact part of any war and “vastly more important than the active war.” This statement should not be taken lightly, it essentially means that Islam is in a perpetual state of war while peace can only be defined as the absence of active war.
Malik argues that peace-time training efforts should be oriented on the active war(s) to come, in order to develop the Quranic and divine “Will” in the mujahid. When armies and soldiers find limited physical resources they should continue and emphasize the development of the “spiritual resources” as these are complimentary factors
and create synergy for future military action.

Malik’s most controversial dictum is summarized in the following manner: in war, “the point where the means and the end meet” is in terror. He formulates terror as an objective principal of war; once terror is achieved the enemy reaches his culminating point. “Terror is not a means of imposing decision upon the enemy; it is the decision we wish to impose . . . .” Malik’s divine principal of Islamic warfare may be restated as “strike terror; never feel terror.” The ultimate objective of this form of warfare “revolves around the human heart, [the enemies] soul, spirit, and Faith.”


Terror “can be instilled only if the opponent’s Faith is destroyed . . . . It is essential in the ultimate analysis, to dislocate [the enemies] Faith.” Those who are firm in their religious conviction are immune to terror, “a weak Faith offers inroads to terror.” Therefore, as part of preparations for jihad, actions will be oriented on weakening the non-Islamic’s “Faith,” while strengthening the Islamic’s. What that weakening or “dislocation” entails in practice remains
ambiguous. Malik concludes, “Psychological dislocation is temporary; spiritual dislocation is permanent.” The soul of man can only be touched by terror. ...

Evaluation of The Quranic Concept of War

While the extent and reach of Malik’s thesis cannot be confirmed in the Islamic world neither can it be discounted. Though controversial, his citations are accurately drawn from Islamic sources and consistent with classical Islamic jurisprudence.. ...

Policy planners and strategists striving to understand the nature of the “Long War” should consider Malik’s writings in that light. Malik makes clear that the Quran provides the doctrine, guidance, and examples for the conduct of Quranic or Islamic warfare. “It gives a strategy of war that penetrates deep down to destroy the opponents’ faith and render his physical and mental faculties totally ineffective.” ...

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Formation and Evolution of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by shiv »

I have started doing a transcript of the Suhrawardy video. The information there is very valuable and says a lot of things about how the US-Pakostanis relationship developed into an anti-India relationship. Will post when it is done - but Americans speak fast and there is 28 minutes of it! :shock:
svinayak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14223
Joined: 09 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Formation and Evolution of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by svinayak »

Very good
anupmisra
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9203
Joined: 12 Nov 2006 04:16
Location: New York

Re: Formation and Evolution of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by anupmisra »

shiv wrote:I have started doing a transcript of the Suhrawardy video. The information there is very valuable and says a lot of things about how the US-Pakostanis relationship developed into an anti-India relationship.
Of particular interest will be the description of pakiland as "the bridge between Seato and Baghdad Pact". Does a similar video exist of Nehru being interviewed on CBS?
Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21538
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Formation and Evolution of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by Philip »

Well, as far as current trends go,I am more interested not in Pak's "evolution",but in its de-volution! The first chunk to disappear was Bangladesh-very easy and detachable because of India lying in between.I am sure that the secret midwives to the birth of the hydra-headed Paki monster wanted that to happen in the fullness of time,being part of a masterplan for the Balkanisation of the Indian subcontinent.Attempts to obtain Travancore's independence was a failure though,and the latest revelations of the billions secretly hidden in the "temple of gold",might 've been known to those promoting independence for the state like Sir CPR who were very close to the Travancore royalty.The fault lines are clearly visible in Jinnah's nightmare.The rulers of Pak are doing exceptionally well in widening them without India's support.The romance between the US and its rent-boy might very well be the catalyst that sees in our lifetime the dismemberment of the Paki state by its very own people.
SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 25112
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: Formation and Evolution of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by SSridhar »

anupmisra wrote:Of particular interest will be the description of pakiland as "the bridge between Seato and Baghdad Pact".
We will wait for the transcript from Shiv, but some things caught my attention immediately.

Several Pakistani traits shine throughout that 'Original Butcher of Bengal' Suhrawardy's interview.

For instance, the sense of 'entitlement'. He says that the 'US ought to persuade member nations in the UNSC & UNGA' of how just the Pakistani position on Kashmir was. He goes on to dish out a reason for why the India cannot have any rights to the Indus river waters. It is because they irrigate the Pakistani lands and not Indian lands.

Lying, which a Muslim can indulge in if the cause was good as per Gen. Zia-ul-Haq's maddhab. Suhrawardy was lying through his teeth all the time and his shifty eyes were a straight giveaway. He never looked any panelist in the eyes while replying to any question. He usually trailed off and mumbled the last part of his answers. For example, one of the questions was whether there could be 'real peace' until the religious question was settled. Suhrawardy answered that that matter was closed as Pakistan had settled down after the Partition and the Nehru-Liaquat Pact {Ed: 'New Delhi Accord' of 1949} had settled the minorities issue. There had been no communal riot in Pakistan while India had 400-odd riots. Now, it must be remembered that there was a large scale expulsion of minorities from Pakistan, especially Suhrawardy's East Pakistan on account of persecution, into India and Nehru even contemplated going to war.

Punching far above its weight. Suhrawardy said that Pakistan could mediate in the Israel-Paestine dispute. His reply to the question as to how Pakistan could be a mediator when it had declared its unambiguous opposition to the existence of Israel, he started to indulge in Pakistaniyat.

He repeatedly mentions protection of the Middle East.

He tries to ingratiate himself with the Americans by claiming that the Americans and the Pakistanis 'wearing the same boot and speaking in the same manner'
Airavat
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2326
Joined: 29 Jul 2003 11:31
Location: dishum-bishum
Contact:

Re: Formation and Evolution of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by Airavat »

x-post from the Mumbai serial blasts thread.
sumishi wrote:It was not the "want" of a considerable number of muslims -- it was the result of machinations of Jinnah with the British supporting the creation of Pakistan from a strategic perspective (Read "The Untold Story of Partition" by Narendra Singh Sarila) in the Great Game against the USSR. Later, US played the same game by setting up the Islamic jihadis in Afghanistan against the USSR
Sad news. Sarila passed away last week. His obituary by Commodore C Uday Bhaskar
Donning the mantle of a researcher at 70-plus, NS tracked primary-source material pertaining to Partition and wrote his best-selling magnum opus: The Shadow of the Great Game: the Untold Story of India’s Partition (2005).

The core of Sarila’s argument was summed up in one pithy paragraph: “Once the British realised that the Indian nationalists who would rule India after its independence would deny them military co-operation under a British Commonwealth defence umbrella, they settled for those willing to do so by using religion for the purpose. Their problem could be solved if Mohammed Ali Jinnah, the leader of the Muslim League Party, would succeed in his plan to detach the northwest of India abutting Iran, Afghanistan and Sinkiang and establish a separate state there — Pakistan. The proposition was a realisable one as a working relationship had been established between the British authorities in India and Jinnah during the Second World War and he was willing to cooperate with Britain on defence matters if Pakistan was created.”

Till as recently as early 2011, NS kept in touch and was always willing to share his experience and insight. Religion, politics, corruption, inadequate governance... there were many current developments that disturbed him, but he retained a distinctive and informed elegance as he patiently studied the world around him, an attitude that NS had acquired as a baby atop an elephant — what he described as “my pram.”

“Please do not introduce me as ‘Raja sahib’, or ‘Ambassador’... I am plain Narendra Singh...” that was his last injunction to me, at an IIC round-table discussion.
RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16006
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: Formation and Evolution of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by RajeshA »

Mostly this is a Pakistani view of history

Pakistan and the Merger of Princely States
  1. Swat
  2. Dir: February 18, 1948
  3. Chitral: November 7, 1947
  4. Bahawalpur October 7, 1947
  5. Khairpur October 9, 1947
  6. Kalat April 2, 1948??
  7. Amb: December 31, 1947
  8. Hunza: November 18, 1947
  9. Nagar: November 18, 1947
suryag
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4049
Joined: 11 Jan 2009 00:14

Re: Formation and Evolution of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by suryag »

Sad we couldnt assimilate Chitral/Hunza during the '48 war
RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16006
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: Formation and Evolution of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by RajeshA »

suryag wrote:Sad we couldnt assimilate Chitral/Hunza during the '48 war
When Pakistan is dissolved, all those erstwhile princely states which signed the Instrument of Accession to Pakistan, would have an opportunity to revisit their decision. :twisted:
Paul
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3801
Joined: 25 Jun 1999 11:31

Re: Formation and Evolution of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by Paul »

Suhrawardy's notorious comment on the ideologically bankrupt arab leadership "0+0+0 = 0" probably sealed his fate.

He married a white russian several years junior to him....He died in Beirut. Unsung and forgotten even in East Pakistan.
Last edited by Paul on 20 Jul 2011 01:34, edited 1 time in total.
Post Reply