JE Menon wrote:
>>According to Talageri, the Greek word Angelos derives from ANgirases. Another angle is that the word Melek itself points to Murugan who rides a Peacock. Tawusê Melek is supposed to have the form of Peacock.
We are stretching it to breaking point here. Talageri may claim Angelos derives from Angirases (in fact it is only a single reference in the link and it is not really a claim of derivation), but really it is purely speculative. (This link http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2584139
argues both ways).
So is the notion that Melek "points to" Murugan. It more likely is a derivative from Malak in Hebrew which means "messenger" or "angel" I suppose.
I will not be in the least bit surprised if "Malaka" is one of the words for "Angel" or "Fairy" in Sanskrit, because that is basically what it means in Malayalam - which is either a derivative language or has a hell of a lot of borrowed words. Also peacock may be only in India now, but a couple of thousand years ago, things would have been quite different.
Interestingly, today "malaka" means wanker in Greek.
I too thought that the Angiras-Angel thing was a stretch. Further, his view that Bhrugus are some anti-Vaidhik path-takers is also not convincing to me.
I think instead of trying to connect Zorashtrianism(Saurashtrianism) to Atharvana Vedha. It would be easier to connect it to Sama-Vedha(Chandogya-Upanishadh).
To provide context:Link to post 1Link to post 2
wiki wrote:The first khanda ordains the Upasana of udgitha (or holy syllable OM). The syllable OM is called by the term udgitha since a priest designated as Udgātṛ starts his singing of Sama's with OM in Vedic yajnas.
The priest who sings Udhgeetha in Yagnyas is called Udhgaather. In Zorashtrianism(Saurashtrianism), the various stories are called Gaathas.
johneeG wrote:Note the similarity in the sounding of the words:
'namas' & 'namaaz'(islamic prayer)
P N Oak suggested that the word 'Namaaz' is made up of two words 'Nama' and 'yaja'.
the word ‘Namaz’ derives from two Sanskrit roots ‘Nama’ and ‘Yajna’ (NAMa yAJna) meaning bowing and worshipping.
But, that seems to be wrong. A more straight-forward corruption would be from the Sanskruth word 'Namas' to 'Namaaz'.
Link to post
johneeG wrote:Speaking of mispronunciation, is it possible that Namaz is a mispronounced and corrupted copy/version of Vedas?
I am posting a video for comparative study:
Sama Veda parayanam(0:26 onwards)
People may have listened to Namaz from the loud speakers from mosque near their homes/offices/colleges/temples.
KLP Dubey wrote:This is a misleading comparison. First of all, the Arabs, Jews, and Christians do not consider the "Word" as eternal. They consider it the "word of god"
Agnimitra wrote:KL ji, to be fair, in the New Testament, we have: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." - John 1.1
Also, in Islam, there was violent disagreement and schism between the Mutazilites and the Asharites about whether the Qur'an was the created word of god or whether it was co-eternal with god.
johneeG wrote:They are uncannily similar to Hindhu ones. Some have even shown the exact Hindhu ones that they imitate.
That is proof that these newer cults were derived from older Vaidhik branches with lots of corruption happening.
P N Oak gives an example:
LinkAnother controversial chapter from Brihadharanyaka Upanishadh seems to have close similarities to certain teachings of Koran
[Note: Another scholar points out that the following teaching from the Koran is exactly similar to the teaching of the Kena Upanishad (1.7).
"Sight perceives Him not. But He perceives men's sights; for He is the knower of secrets , the Aware."
"That which cannot be seen by the eye but through which the eye itself sees, know That to be Brahman (God) and not what people worship here (in the manifested world)."
A simplified meaning of both the above verses reads:
God is one and that He is beyond man's sensory experience.]
[/quote]Link to post
JE Menon wrote:So is the notion that Melek "points to" Murugan. It more likely is a derivative from Malak in Hebrew which means "messenger" or "angel" I suppose.
I will not be in the least bit surprised if "Malaka" is one of the words for "Angel" or "Fairy" in Sanskrit, because that is basically what it means in Malayalam - which is either a derivative or has a hell of a lot of borrowed words.
In Sanskrit malAkA
means female messenger.
I do not contest that Melek among Yezidis could have same origin as mal'āk̠
in Hebrew. But then Torah itself need not be considered a very old text. I've read it was compiled after 800 BCE. The word Melek could be in the region among various communities before that, including among the Yezidis.
JE Menon wrote:Also peacock may be only in India now, but a couple of thousand years ago, things would have been quite different.
Yes of course, peacock could also have been found elsewhere, but a few points to note.
a) Peacock isn't a bird prone to long flights
b) Peacocks are known to "dance" when monsoons come. Regions immediately to the West of Indian Subcontinent do not have much rainfall.
c) There seems to be a general consensus in the scientific community that Peacock is native to India, whatever their opinion is worth.
Peacock Iconography is spread all over the place from India all the way to ancient Greece and all the lands in between. So if we wish to understand the extent of Indian cultural prominence in the Ancient World, one way is to follow the path of the Peacock, which cannot fly far and still reach the corners of the Earth.
Excellent RajeshA saar.
True, the spread of Peacock can be quite a good way to know about spread of Hindhuism.
In Hindhuism, peacock seems to be connected to Krushna, Murugan(Swami/Skandha/Kumara), Kaumari and Saraswathi.
It seems to me that middle-east and Europe had worship of Krushna. Krushna is connected to peacock prominently in Hindhuism.
abhischekcc, wonder what Rome had to do with this (remember all this was pre-Constantine)?
BTW Zenob himself was a Christian FYI:
Divided into two parts, Book One is an alleged eyewitness account of
the Armenian conversion to Christianity by one Zenob Klag. It is
remarkable for its portrayal of this conversion as a colonial process,
led and controlled by representatives of a new (foreign) religious
movement. Albeit in collaboration with (a subjugated and obedient)
section of the domestic nobility, this foreign Christian religion is
only imposed after fierce battles against the (native) pagan
leadership and its popular supporters. Once masters of the land, this
new Church moves to appropriate the choice portions of the nation's
property and wealth.
The story unfolds in the form of a correspondence between Gregory the
Illuminator in Armenia and his superior Archbishop Leo headquartered
in Ghessaria. Neither is native to Armenia. Yet they talk as if they
own the country and its population with some god-given power to do
with them as they wish.
Their air of confidence is unmistakable, no
doubt sustained by religious righteousness. Preparing to consolidate
their spiritual conquest of the local population, Gregory urges Leo to
`send forth your (priests) in order to reap God's harvest'. (p21)
harvest of course was not purely of souls. Control of people's
spiritual life was to be the fertile ground for raising vast amounts
of material wealth through all manner of religious taxes, dues and
Gregory's request has an edge of urgency. `We need bishops and
priests in all our (sic!) provinces'. The few that have been `gathered
from here and there' are insufficient to govern `Armenia's 630
lucrative' provinces. (p24) Grasping that the satisfaction of a
spiritual mission alone was insufficient inducement to the settlement
of foreign (Assyrian or Greek) priests Gregory plays to their more
material ambitions. Acting as if he and the newly formed Church have
sole authority over the land, Gregory entices them with the promise
that `if you come I shall put at your service the entire provinces of
Hark and Yegheghyatz' (p25). For those willing to join in helping to
consolidate his grip Gregory, promises that `what (they) find pleasant
and desirable' in Armenia they `can have' (p25). He urges them to
leave behind `the dry and hungry land' they `presently inhabit' and
come to Armenia `where there is plenty', where `the air is sweet, and
the waters flow abundantly'. (p59)The colonial aspect of the conversion is further underlined in
descriptions of the battles against the pre-Christian Armenian
establishment. Pagan Armenia, in Zenob Klag's account even more than
in that of Agatangeghos, did not lie helpless before the new
religious power. There was no passive succumbing or voluntary
subordination. To become masters of the situation and to impose its
alien religion, the new (foreign) Church had to wage war and inflict
`suffering and torture' until its native victims were `brought to
death's door' (p43). The fighting may have been done by troops
belonging to the converted factions of the nobility, but it was the
Church which was in decided control and command.
In battle, the pagans are neither a small and isolated minority nor are
they cowards. Forces are frequently evenly divided and anti-Christian
resistance is strong and marked by courage. The offensive of the new
religion is directed not just against the pre-Christian leadership but
against broad sections of Armenia's population itself, against the
nation as a whole. In Klag's own account the pagan forces are shown to
enjoy substantial popular support.
In more than one instance the
peasantry/village population is described as joining in `efforts to
trap and destroy' the Christian army. (p39)To permanently subdue its newly conquered population, the Church, like
colonial powers in all ages, set out to destroy the intellectual and
cultural heritage of pre-Christian Armenia so as to annihilate its
historically developed independent national identity. As a final mark
of arrogance it built its own Churches on `the very ground and with
the very same masonry as that of the pagan temples' it destroyed,
(p43-4) copying even their architecture. (p45-6)
(This point may
clearly be of relevance to literary critics and historians seeking to
uncover and reconstruct aspects of pre-Christian traditions that
survived embedded in subsequent Armenian literature and culture.)http://www.groong.com/tcc/tcc-20010807.html
they built themselves untill 4th century, A.D. or a period of 450 years. And this is where they built their city and put up two gods named as Gisaneh and Demeter, after their murdered fathers whom they had deified.
These gods were made entirely of brass, the former, according to Zenob, was twelve cubits high, and the latter fifteen cubits and the priests that were appointed for the service of these gods were all Hindoos. Under the auspices of a heathen government, in whose eyes they had evidently found great favour, the Hindoo colony flourished for a considerable time in Armenia, but with the dawn of Christianity in idolatrous Armenia in the year of 301 A.D. the tide of royal kindness began to ebb and ebb very swiftly, for the Indian gods shared the fate of the national gods and goddesses, which were destroyed by that relentless iconoclast, St.Gregory the Illuminator, who had the famous temples of Gisaneh and Demeter razed to the ground, the images broken to pieces whilst the Hindoo priests who offered resistance were murdered on the spot, as faithfully chronicled by Zenob who was an eye-witness of the destruction of the Hindoo temples and the gods.
On the site of these two temples, St.Gregory had a monastery erected where he deposited the relics of St.Jhon the Baptist and Athanagineh the martyr which he had brought with him from Ceaseria, and that sacred edifice, which was erected in the year 301 A.D., exists to this day and is known as St.Carapet of Moosh and has always been a great place of pilgrimage for Armenians from all parts of the world.
The Hindoo priests attached to the temples of Gisaneh and Demeter, seeing the destruction of their national gods and their temples, with tears in their eyes entreated the victorious Armenians, their erstwhile brother idolators, to put them to death rather than destroy their mighty god Gisaneh, and for the resistance that they offered to the victors, six of the Hindoo priests were killed on the spot.
On the restoration of peace between the Armenians and the Hindoos, the Armenian prince of the house of Siunies proceeded to the Hindoo village of Kuars and succeeded in persuading the inhabitants of that place to renounce idolatry and embrace the Christian faith which had now became the State religion. His efforts were crowned with success and they were dully prepared for baptism, and being conducted to the valley of Ayzasan they were baptised there by St. Gregory.
According to Zenob, who as i have said was a disciple of Apostle of Armenia, and an eye-witness of the events he narrates, the Hindoos that were baptised on the first day of Navasard, (the ancient Armenian New Year day)numbered 5,050 and these were composed of men and children only, as the females were, it appears excluded from that number and baptised on another day specially appointed for the occasion.
In Armenia, there were Hindhus who used to worship Gisaneh and Demeter.
'Gisaneh' and 'Demeter' seem to be corruptions of the words 'Krishna'(Krushna) and 'Dhaamodhar'.
At that time, there was a dynasty in Armenia called Bagratuni Dynasty. Please see the word 'Bhagratuni'. In Sanskruth, it would mean 'ratha'(worshiper) of 'Bhaga'.
Here is the Armenian story of 'Gisaneh' and 'Demeter':
The Legend of Gisaneh and Demeter
Two fine young men, two twin brothers in flowing robes and with hair down to their shoulders, came to the palace of the king of Armenia by the redbrick road. They came from the East and their names were Demeter and Gisaneh. The brothers told King Vagarshak that they had fled from the tyranny of Indian rulers. When asked what they had done to anger the Indian rulers so, the brothers shrugged: “Probably, because we love music and we’re not fond of thunder.”
“Well, that’s not very serious,” the king smiled.
Vagarshak granted them a country called Taron. The brothers settled there and erected a few cities. They ruled Taron for fifteen years. But for all those years the king had never received an invitation to visit the new capital. And when he finally went there himself, there was a festival in honour of the coming of spring, and nobody paid any attention to him. Mimes and musicians roamed the streets. Actors performed different plays and they were assisted by dancers in long robes. The king could not hear any songs or poems in his honour. He flew into a rage and ordered Gisaneh and Demeter killed.
As soon as they were murdered, everything disappeared in a flash: the mimes, the dancers, the music and the entire festival. Only the king wandered the deserted city alone, full of resentment and boundless pride.
Soon Vagarshak left Taron, never to return. The power in the country was left with Gisaneh’s three sons. In memory of the executed brothers, they erected a temple with statues, where colourful rituals were held every spring. And since that day, gusans* have been wandering through the world, performing at festivals, banquets and weddings. They sing about earthly love, the exploits of celebrated heroes, and the verity that nothing is more wonderful and precious in this world than peace, harmony and beauty.
They don't like Thunder(Indhra). They like music(Flute).
I think its a clear indication of Krushna.
These Hindhus were targetted by X-ists(Buddhists of middle-east and north-africa).
Then, there is another worship of Krushna in Eastern Europe:
Link to post
Link to original post
shiv wrote:Virendra - note both those posts are cut and paste - I just did not put them in quotes so the credit must go to the author of those links.
That said the more I read the more the links between India and the European bearers of R1A1a1 seem close.
For example, the word "bag", cognate of "bhagwan" has come up before as "God" in Iran. But in Europe - ranging from Russia to the Slavic nations to Poland the word for God is "bog"
In Russia, Poland and other nations there used to be two gods, bielobog and charobog (approximation of various similar names)
The word "bielobog" means white god. "biely" means white in Russian and other east Euroopean languages. I was unable to find a close cognate in Sanskrit other than "valaksh" . But he Kannada word for white is "bili" , cognate of Tamil "vellai" Ther is some connection there.
"Charobog" means black god. Now "char", "kar" etc seem to be related to Sanskrit "krishna" (black), Kannada too has "kari" meaning black, as Tamil has "karppu". Incidentally the Christian gilr name "kari" may be derived from Gaelic Ciardha (meaning black-haired one)
There are dep links that are not acknowledged by the type of anglosaxon scholarship that we tend to follow.
Link to original post
JE Menon wrote:>>"Charobog" means black god. Now "char", "kar" etc seem to be related to Sanskrit "krishna" (black), Kannada too has "kari" meaning black, as Tamil has "karppu". Incidentally the Christian gilr name "kari" may be derived from Gaelic Ciardha (meaning black-haired one)
The word Kara to mean black is used across a range of countries in the area encompassing Turkey, Greece, East Mediterranean, Slavic zone. Most often found in names, like "Karageorghis" (Black George) in Greece for instance, or "Kara Aydin" (in Turkey)... Of course, it is the K in CYMK which will be familiar to Graphic Designers standing for the colour channel representing Cyan, Yellow, Magenta and "Kara" (for black).
Indeed, we have only just begun scratching the surface... only now are we really scratching our own collective heads and saying "wait a minute, WTF"? And when a bunch of Yindoos begin doing that, the world better watch out... The shite is really going to hit the fan in the next decade.
'Karre' in Thelugu also means 'black' or 'dark'.
The word 'kara' may have been a simple corruption of the Sanskruth word 'kaala'. In Sanskruth, 'kala' means 'black'. In Hindhi, 'kala' means 'black'. There is even a rule in Sanskruth grammer(if my grammar is not wrong) which states that 'ra-la-yor abedhah'. It means 'ra' and 'la' are interchangeable. 'kara' may be a simple corruption of 'kala'.
The same phenomenon is perhaps seen in the words 'Rama' and 'Lama'.
'Kaali' means 'blacky'. The Goddess is called Kaali because She is black in color. 'Krushna' also means 'black' in Sanskruth. Shri Krushna is called so because He was also dark. Bala Rama was fairer.
So, Bielobog and Charobog may indeed be Bala Rama and Shri Krushna respectively. 'Bielo' sounds similar to 'Bala'(Rama), while 'Charo' has some phonetic similarity to Kara i.e. Kala.
So, Beilobog and Charobog may be corruptions of Bala-bhagwan and Kaala-bhagwan i.e Kara-bhagwan(i.e Krushna).
Now, lets go ancient Europe and see the importance of Krushna:Link to post
Krushna along with Swasthikas, horses, cows and bulls. This is clearly Hindhuism.
Yazidis of middle-east are one more link in this chain. I read that Yazidis don't eat lettuce. This is against quintessentially Hindhu(or Jain) connection.
The Hindhus who survive in such hostile environments may develop some distortions in their world-view(compared to other Hindhus). But, it is just due to the compulsions of their circumstances.
So, Hindhuism was spread all over middle-east, eastern europe and ancient Italy/Greece. It was Buddhism that systematically persecuted Hindhuism. X-ism is just a mutated form of Buddhism.