Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

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RajeshA
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby RajeshA » 24 Oct 2014 13:18

JE Menon wrote:>>According to Talageri, the Greek word Angelos derives from ANgirases. Another angle is that the word Melek itself points to Murugan who rides a Peacock. Tawusê Melek is supposed to have the form of Peacock.

We are stretching it to breaking point here. Talageri may claim Angelos derives from Angirases (in fact it is only a single reference in the link and it is not really a claim of derivation), but really it is purely speculative. (This link
http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2584139 argues both ways).


Thanks for the link!

JE Menon wrote:So is the notion that Melek "points to" Murugan. It more likely is a derivative from Malak in Hebrew which means "messenger" or "angel" I suppose.

I will not be in the least bit surprised if "Malaka" is one of the words for "Angel" or "Fairy" in Sanskrit, because that is basically what it means in Malayalam - which is either a derivative or has a hell of a lot of borrowed words.


In Sanskrit malAkA means female messenger.

I do not contest that Melek among Yezidis could have same origin as mal'āk̠ in Hebrew. But then Torah itself need not be considered a very old text. I've read it was compiled after 800 BCE. The word Melek could be in the region among various communities before that, including among the Yezidis.

JE Menon wrote:Also peacock may be only in India now, but a couple of thousand years ago, things would have been quite different.


Yes of course, peacock could also have been found elsewhere, but a few points to note.

a) Peacock isn't a bird prone to long flights
b) Peacocks are known to "dance" when monsoons come. Regions immediately to the West of Indian Subcontinent do not have much rainfall.
c) There seems to be a general consensus in the scientific community that Peacock is native to India, whatever their opinion is worth.

Peacock Iconography is spread all over the place from India all the way to ancient Greece and all the lands in between. So if we wish to understand the extent of Indian cultural prominence in the Ancient World, one way is to follow the path of the Peacock, which cannot fly far and still reach the corners of the Earth.

shiv
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 24 Oct 2014 13:28

JE Menon wrote:
I will not be in the least bit surprised if "Malaka" is one of the words for "Angel" or "Fairy" in Sanskrit, because that is basically what it means in Malayalam

Interesting JEM. You must have heard this enchantingly beautiful song
Malaika

I have read that the so called "Dravidian" languages have had exchanges with the coast of Arabia and Africa for so long that there are some common words used all along the coastal belt - including Kerala, Karnataka and Maharashtra.

In the song linked above, the word for money is "Pesa" in Swahili - which guess what, sounds like Paisa in Hindi and Peso in whatever language.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby JE Menon » 24 Oct 2014 14:08

Doc,

The swahili word Pesa comes directly from the Gujjus/Panjus... :) East Africa is infused with Indian influences. HEAVILY. In fact the locals think they (i.e. the locals themselves) invented chapati!!!

Their word for "joining together" - Harambee - comes from the chant of the Indian slave (bonded) labour the Brits got to build their railroad from the coast to Nairobi. Mainly Gujjus and Panjus. The chant they used when hauling heavy logs, and metal rods together was "Har Har Ambe" (in reference to the deity Amba - very well known in Gujarat I presume). Local temples in Nairobi have her as one of the key deities. Now "Harambee" is a swahili word and most don't know it's origins (I've asked), and there is a Harambee Avenue in Nairobi :) - and those are just two examples.

In fact, in the Malaika song link from youtube, in the initial slides, Miriam Makeba appears to be wearing a Sari/Blouse/Shawl combo

http://s3.amazonaws.com/rpsmedia/MiriamMakeba1.JPG

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby johneeG » 24 Oct 2014 19:40

JE Menon wrote:>>According to Talageri, the Greek word Angelos derives from ANgirases. Another angle is that the word Melek itself points to Murugan who rides a Peacock. Tawusê Melek is supposed to have the form of Peacock.

We are stretching it to breaking point here. Talageri may claim Angelos derives from Angirases (in fact it is only a single reference in the link and it is not really a claim of derivation), but really it is purely speculative. (This link
http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2584139 argues both ways).

So is the notion that Melek "points to" Murugan. It more likely is a derivative from Malak in Hebrew which means "messenger" or "angel" I suppose.

I will not be in the least bit surprised if "Malaka" is one of the words for "Angel" or "Fairy" in Sanskrit, because that is basically what it means in Malayalam - which is either a derivative language or has a hell of a lot of borrowed words. Also peacock may be only in India now, but a couple of thousand years ago, things would have been quite different.

Interestingly, today "malaka" means wanker in Greek.


JEM saar,
I too thought that the Angiras-Angel thing was a stretch. Further, his view that Bhrugus are some anti-Vaidhik path-takers is also not convincing to me.

I think instead of trying to connect Zorashtrianism(Saurashtrianism) to Atharvana Vedha. It would be easier to connect it to Sama-Vedha(Chandogya-Upanishadh).

To provide context:
Link to post 1
Link to post 2

wiki wrote:The first khanda ordains the Upasana of udgitha (or holy syllable OM). The syllable OM is called by the term udgitha since a priest designated as Udgātṛ starts his singing of Sama's with OM in Vedic yajnas.

Wiki Link

The priest who sings Udhgeetha in Yagnyas is called Udhgaather. In Zorashtrianism(Saurashtrianism), the various stories are called Gaathas.

johneeG wrote:Note the similarity in the sounding of the words:
'namas' & 'namaaz'(islamic prayer)



P N Oak suggested that the word 'Namaaz' is made up of two words 'Nama' and 'yaja'.
the word ‘Namaz’ derives from two Sanskrit roots ‘Nama’ and ‘Yajna’ (NAMa yAJna) meaning bowing and worshipping.


Link

But, that seems to be wrong. A more straight-forward corruption would be from the Sanskruth word 'Namas' to 'Namaaz'.


johneeG wrote:Speaking of mispronunciation, is it possible that Namaz is a mispronounced and corrupted copy/version of Vedas?

I am posting a video for comparative study:
Sama Veda parayanam(0:26 onwards)


People may have listened to Namaz from the loud speakers from mosque near their homes/offices/colleges/temples.


Link to post

KLP Dubey wrote:This is a misleading comparison. First of all, the Arabs, Jews, and Christians do not consider the "Word" as eternal. They consider it the "word of god"



Agnimitra wrote:KL ji, to be fair, in the New Testament, we have: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." - John 1.1

Also, in Islam, there was violent disagreement and schism between the Mutazilites and the Asharites about whether the Qur'an was the created word of god or whether it was co-eternal with god.

johneeG wrote:They are uncannily similar to Hindhu ones. Some have even shown the exact Hindhu ones that they imitate.

That is proof that these newer cults were derived from older Vaidhik branches with lots of corruption happening.



P N Oak gives an example:
Quote:
[Note: Another scholar points out that the following teaching from the Koran is exactly similar to the teaching of the Kena Upanishad (1.7).

The Koran:
"Sight perceives Him not. But He perceives men's sights; for He is the knower of secrets , the Aware."

Kena Upanishad:
"That which cannot be seen by the eye but through which the eye itself sees, know That to be Brahman (God) and not what people worship here (in the manifested world)."

A simplified meaning of both the above verses reads:
God is one and that He is beyond man's sensory experience.]


Link

Another controversial chapter from Brihadharanyaka Upanishadh seems to have close similarities to certain teachings of Koran
[/quote]

Link to post

----
RajeshA wrote:
JE Menon wrote:So is the notion that Melek "points to" Murugan. It more likely is a derivative from Malak in Hebrew which means "messenger" or "angel" I suppose.

I will not be in the least bit surprised if "Malaka" is one of the words for "Angel" or "Fairy" in Sanskrit, because that is basically what it means in Malayalam - which is either a derivative or has a hell of a lot of borrowed words.


In Sanskrit malAkA means female messenger.

I do not contest that Melek among Yezidis could have same origin as mal'āk̠ in Hebrew. But then Torah itself need not be considered a very old text. I've read it was compiled after 800 BCE. The word Melek could be in the region among various communities before that, including among the Yezidis.

JE Menon wrote:Also peacock may be only in India now, but a couple of thousand years ago, things would have been quite different.


Yes of course, peacock could also have been found elsewhere, but a few points to note.

a) Peacock isn't a bird prone to long flights
b) Peacocks are known to "dance" when monsoons come. Regions immediately to the West of Indian Subcontinent do not have much rainfall.
c) There seems to be a general consensus in the scientific community that Peacock is native to India, whatever their opinion is worth.

Peacock Iconography is spread all over the place from India all the way to ancient Greece and all the lands in between. So if we wish to understand the extent of Indian cultural prominence in the Ancient World, one way is to follow the path of the Peacock, which cannot fly far and still reach the corners of the Earth.


Excellent RajeshA saar.

True, the spread of Peacock can be quite a good way to know about spread of Hindhuism.

In Hindhuism, peacock seems to be connected to Krushna, Murugan(Swami/Skandha/Kumara), Kaumari and Saraswathi.

It seems to me that middle-east and Europe had worship of Krushna. Krushna is connected to peacock prominently in Hindhuism.

Surasena wrote:abhischekcc, wonder what Rome had to do with this (remember all this was pre-Constantine)?

BTW Zenob himself was a Christian FYI:
Divided into two parts, Book One is an alleged eyewitness account of
the Armenian conversion to Christianity by one Zenob Klag. It is
remarkable for its portrayal of this conversion as a colonial process,
led and controlled by representatives of a new (foreign) religious
movement. Albeit in collaboration with (a subjugated and obedient)
section of the domestic nobility, this foreign Christian religion is
only imposed after fierce battles against the (native) pagan
leadership and its popular supporters. Once masters of the land, this
new Church moves to appropriate the choice portions of the nation's
property and wealth.


The story unfolds in the form of a correspondence between Gregory the
Illuminator in Armenia and his superior Archbishop Leo headquartered
in Ghessaria. Neither is native to Armenia. Yet they talk as if they
own the country and its population with some god-given power to do
with them as they wish.
Their air of confidence is unmistakable, no
doubt sustained by religious righteousness. Preparing to consolidate
their spiritual conquest of the local population, Gregory urges Leo to
`send forth your (priests) in order to reap God's harvest'. (p21)
The
harvest of course was not purely of souls. Control of people's
spiritual life was to be the fertile ground for raising vast amounts
of material wealth through all manner of religious taxes, dues and
gifts.

Gregory's request has an edge of urgency. `We need bishops and
priests in all our (sic!) provinces'. The few that have been `gathered
from here and there' are insufficient to govern `Armenia's 630
lucrative' provinces. (p24) Grasping that the satisfaction of a
spiritual mission alone was insufficient inducement to the settlement
of foreign (Assyrian or Greek) priests Gregory plays to their more
material ambitions. Acting as if he and the newly formed Church have
sole authority over the land, Gregory entices them with the promise
that `if you come I shall put at your service the entire provinces of
Hark and Yegheghyatz' (p25). For those willing to join in helping to
consolidate his grip Gregory, promises that `what (they) find pleasant
and desirable' in Armenia they `can have' (p25). He urges them to
leave behind `the dry and hungry land' they `presently inhabit' and
come to Armenia `where there is plenty', where `the air is sweet, and
the waters flow abundantly'. (p59)

The colonial aspect of the conversion is further underlined in
descriptions of the battles against the pre-Christian Armenian
establishment. Pagan Armenia, in Zenob Klag's account even more than
in that of Agatangeghos, did not lie helpless before the new
religious power. There was no passive succumbing or voluntary
subordination. To become masters of the situation and to impose its
alien religion, the new (foreign) Church had to wage war and inflict
`suffering and torture' until its native victims were `brought to
death's door' (p43). The fighting may have been done by troops
belonging to the converted factions of the nobility, but it was the
Church which was in decided control and command.


In battle, the pagans are neither a small and isolated minority nor are
they cowards. Forces are frequently evenly divided and anti-Christian
resistance is strong and marked by courage. The offensive of the new
religion is directed not just against the pre-Christian leadership but
against broad sections of Armenia's population itself, against the
nation as a whole. In Klag's own account the pagan forces are shown to
enjoy substantial popular support.
In more than one instance the
peasantry/village population is described as joining in `efforts to
trap and destroy' the Christian army. (p39)

To permanently subdue its newly conquered population, the Church, like
colonial powers in all ages, set out to destroy the intellectual and
cultural heritage of pre-Christian Armenia so as to annihilate its
historically developed independent national identity. As a final mark
of arrogance it built its own Churches on `the very ground and with
the very same masonry as that of the pagan temples' it destroyed,
(p43-4) copying even their architecture. (p45-6)
(This point may
clearly be of relevance to literary critics and historians seeking to
uncover and reconstruct aspects of pre-Christian traditions that
survived embedded in subsequent Armenian literature and culture.)

http://www.groong.com/tcc/tcc-20010807.html

Link

they built themselves untill 4th century, A.D. or a period of 450 years. And this is where they built their city and put up two gods named as Gisaneh and Demeter, after their murdered fathers whom they had deified.

These gods were made entirely of brass, the former, according to Zenob, was twelve cubits high, and the latter fifteen cubits and the priests that were appointed for the service of these gods were all Hindoos. Under the auspices of a heathen government, in whose eyes they had evidently found great favour, the Hindoo colony flourished for a considerable time in Armenia, but with the dawn of Christianity in idolatrous Armenia in the year of 301 A.D. the tide of royal kindness began to ebb and ebb very swiftly, for the Indian gods shared the fate of the national gods and goddesses, which were destroyed by that relentless iconoclast, St.Gregory the Illuminator, who had the famous temples of Gisaneh and Demeter razed to the ground, the images broken to pieces whilst the Hindoo priests who offered resistance were murdered on the spot, as faithfully chronicled by Zenob who was an eye-witness of the destruction of the Hindoo temples and the gods.

On the site of these two temples, St.Gregory had a monastery erected where he deposited the relics of St.Jhon the Baptist and Athanagineh the martyr which he had brought with him from Ceaseria, and that sacred edifice, which was erected in the year 301 A.D., exists to this day and is known as St.Carapet of Moosh and has always been a great place of pilgrimage for Armenians from all parts of the world.

The Hindoo priests attached to the temples of Gisaneh and Demeter, seeing the destruction of their national gods and their temples, with tears in their eyes entreated the victorious Armenians, their erstwhile brother idolators, to put them to death rather than destroy their mighty god Gisaneh, and for the resistance that they offered to the victors, six of the Hindoo priests were killed on the spot.

On the restoration of peace between the Armenians and the Hindoos, the Armenian prince of the house of Siunies proceeded to the Hindoo village of Kuars and succeeded in persuading the inhabitants of that place to renounce idolatry and embrace the Christian faith which had now became the State religion. His efforts were crowned with success and they were dully prepared for baptism, and being conducted to the valley of Ayzasan they were baptised there by St. Gregory.

According to Zenob, who as i have said was a disciple of Apostle of Armenia, and an eye-witness of the events he narrates, the Hindoos that were baptised on the first day of Navasard, (the ancient Armenian New Year day)numbered 5,050 and these were composed of men and children only, as the females were, it appears excluded from that number and baptised on another day specially appointed for the occasion.

Link

In Armenia, there were Hindhus who used to worship Gisaneh and Demeter.

'Gisaneh' and 'Demeter' seem to be corruptions of the words 'Krishna'(Krushna) and 'Dhaamodhar'.

At that time, there was a dynasty in Armenia called Bagratuni Dynasty. Please see the word 'Bhagratuni'. In Sanskruth, it would mean 'ratha'(worshiper) of 'Bhaga'.

Here is the Armenian story of 'Gisaneh' and 'Demeter':
The Legend of Gisaneh and Demeter

Two fine young men, two twin brothers in flowing robes and with hair down to their shoulders, came to the palace of the king of Armenia by the redbrick road. They came from the East and their names were Demeter and Gisaneh. The brothers told King Vagarshak that they had fled from the tyranny of Indian rulers. When asked what they had done to anger the Indian rulers so, the brothers shrugged: “Probably, because we love music and we’re not fond of thunder.”

“Well, that’s not very serious,” the king smiled.

Vagarshak granted them a country called Taron. The brothers settled there and erected a few cities. They ruled Taron for fifteen years. But for all those years the king had never received an invitation to visit the new capital. And when he finally went there himself, there was a festival in honour of the coming of spring, and nobody paid any attention to him. Mimes and musicians roamed the streets. Actors performed different plays and they were assisted by dancers in long robes. The king could not hear any songs or poems in his honour. He flew into a rage and ordered Gisaneh and Demeter killed.

As soon as they were murdered, everything disappeared in a flash: the mimes, the dancers, the music and the entire festival. Only the king wandered the deserted city alone, full of resentment and boundless pride.

Soon Vagarshak left Taron, never to return. The power in the country was left with Gisaneh’s three sons. In memory of the executed brothers, they erected a temple with statues, where colourful rituals were held every spring. And since that day, gusans* have been wandering through the world, performing at festivals, banquets and weddings. They sing about earthly love, the exploits of celebrated heroes, and the verity that nothing is more wonderful and precious in this world than peace, harmony and beauty.

Link

They don't like Thunder(Indhra). They like music(Flute).

I think its a clear indication of Krushna.

These Hindhus were targetted by X-ists(Buddhists of middle-east and north-africa).

Then, there is another worship of Krushna in Eastern Europe:
shiv wrote:Virendra - note both those posts are cut and paste - I just did not put them in quotes so the credit must go to the author of those links.

That said the more I read the more the links between India and the European bearers of R1A1a1 seem close.

For example, the word "bag", cognate of "bhagwan" has come up before as "God" in Iran. But in Europe - ranging from Russia to the Slavic nations to Poland the word for God is "bog"

In Russia, Poland and other nations there used to be two gods, bielobog and charobog (approximation of various similar names)

The word "bielobog" means white god. "biely" means white in Russian and other east Euroopean languages. I was unable to find a close cognate in Sanskrit other than "valaksh" . But he Kannada word for white is "bili" , cognate of Tamil "vellai" Ther is some connection there.

"Charobog" means black god. Now "char", "kar" etc seem to be related to Sanskrit "krishna" (black), Kannada too has "kari" meaning black, as Tamil has "karppu". Incidentally the Christian gilr name "kari" may be derived from Gaelic Ciardha (meaning black-haired one)

There are dep links that are not acknowledged by the type of anglosaxon scholarship that we tend to follow.

Link to original post

JE Menon wrote:>>"Charobog" means black god. Now "char", "kar" etc seem to be related to Sanskrit "krishna" (black), Kannada too has "kari" meaning black, as Tamil has "karppu". Incidentally the Christian gilr name "kari" may be derived from Gaelic Ciardha (meaning black-haired one)

The word Kara to mean black is used across a range of countries in the area encompassing Turkey, Greece, East Mediterranean, Slavic zone. Most often found in names, like "Karageorghis" (Black George) in Greece for instance, or "Kara Aydin" (in Turkey)... Of course, it is the K in CYMK which will be familiar to Graphic Designers standing for the colour channel representing Cyan, Yellow, Magenta and "Kara" (for black).

Indeed, we have only just begun scratching the surface... only now are we really scratching our own collective heads and saying "wait a minute, WTF"? And when a bunch of Yindoos begin doing that, the world better watch out... The shite is really going to hit the fan in the next decade.


Link to original post

'Karre' in Thelugu also means 'black' or 'dark'.

The word 'kara' may have been a simple corruption of the Sanskruth word 'kaala'. In Sanskruth, 'kala' means 'black'. In Hindhi, 'kala' means 'black'. There is even a rule in Sanskruth grammer(if my grammar is not wrong) which states that 'ra-la-yor abedhah'. It means 'ra' and 'la' are interchangeable. 'kara' may be a simple corruption of 'kala'.

The same phenomenon is perhaps seen in the words 'Rama' and 'Lama'.

'Kaali' means 'blacky'. The Goddess is called Kaali because She is black in color. 'Krushna' also means 'black' in Sanskruth. Shri Krushna is called so because He was also dark. Bala Rama was fairer.

So, Bielobog and Charobog may indeed be Bala Rama and Shri Krushna respectively. 'Bielo' sounds similar to 'Bala'(Rama), while 'Charo' has some phonetic similarity to Kara i.e. Kala.

So, Beilobog and Charobog may be corruptions of Bala-bhagwan and Kaala-bhagwan i.e Kara-bhagwan(i.e Krushna).

Link to post

Now, lets go ancient Europe and see the importance of Krushna:
johneeG wrote:Thanks for that link you provided. I searched that site and found the Art Photo#6.
Image
Title: Pastoral mosaic with shepherd
Category Code: bw
Year: 1998
Roll Number: 059
Frame Number: 22
Photographer: Ioannidou - Bartzioti
Size: 35mm
Old Negative: bw-9598
Site: Corinth
City: Corinth
Country: Greece
http://ascsa.net/id/corinth/image/1998_st_059_022


Image
Title: Pastoral mosaic with shepherd
Category Code: bw
Year: 1989
Frame Number: 9598
Size: 18x24
New Negative: 1998-059-22
Date: 1989
Site: Corinth
City: Corinth
Country: Greece
http://ascsa.net/id/corinth/image/1998_st_059_022




It seems that the mosaic depicting a pastoral scene was part of a larger floor from a Roman villa found at Ancient Corinth from 150-200 AD.

Pastoral scenes are also commonly found, for example in the aforementioned Roman Villa4
and also from Anaploga5. With regard to geometric elements, intersecting circles, fields of peltae,swastika meander, guilloche and stepped squares are among the more usual elements found6. It could be said in fact that the closest parallels for the Corinthian mosaics can be found in Patras and in Sparta7. For example, a group of mosaics from Patras8 and the mosaic from the property of Paraskevopoulou in Sparta compare well with that of the Mosaic House in the Forum
in Corinth9.


http://www.academia.edu/325761%20/A_New_Group_of_Mosaics_From_Corinth_In_Their_Domestic_Context_and_In_the_Context_of_the_Colony

It seems Swastikas were popular in ancient Greece and ancient Italy.

Ancient greek coin hemidrachm swastika
Image

http://www.ufo-contact.com/ancient-swastika/ancient-greek-coin-hemidrachm-swastika

Ancient Pompeii floor Swastika
Image

http://www.ufo-contact.com/ancient-swastika/ancient-pompeii-floor-swastika


Link to post

Krushna along with Swasthikas, horses, cows and bulls. This is clearly Hindhuism.

Yazidis of middle-east are one more link in this chain. I read that Yazidis don't eat lettuce. This is against quintessentially Hindhu(or Jain) connection.

The Hindhus who survive in such hostile environments may develop some distortions in their world-view(compared to other Hindhus). But, it is just due to the compulsions of their circumstances.

So, Hindhuism was spread all over middle-east, eastern europe and ancient Italy/Greece. It was Buddhism that systematically persecuted Hindhuism. X-ism is just a mutated form of Buddhism.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Anantha » 24 Oct 2014 19:56

Malek Taus:
Taus means peacock , Malek comes from the word Malaikavalan (protector of mountain, Murugan). Yazidis also believe in a mythical home land Perini (Pazani in tamil). This from a tweet of a Yazidi prof in US. I dont have the link.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Anantha » 24 Oct 2014 20:21


partha
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby partha » 24 Oct 2014 23:54

JE Menon wrote:Doc,

The swahili word Pesa comes directly from the Gujjus/Panjus... :) East Africa is infused with Indian influences. HEAVILY. In fact the locals think they (i.e. the locals themselves) invented chapati!!!

Their word for "joining together" - Harambee - comes from the chant of the Indian slave (bonded) labour the Brits got to build their railroad from the coast to Nairobi. Mainly Gujjus and Panjus. The chant they used when hauling heavy logs, and metal rods together was "Har Har Ambe" (in reference to the deity Amba - very well known in Gujarat I presume). Local temples in Nairobi have her as one of the key deities. Now "Harambee" is a swahili word and most don't know it's origins (I've asked), and there is a Harambee Avenue in Nairobi :) - and those are just two examples.

Swahili word for Lion - "Simba" 8)

I found some info on Harambee on an African blog -
http://www.ajabuafrica.com/ajabublog/?p=1014
According a Kenyan scholar based in Cromwell, CT, the popular Kenyan philosophy of Harambee, used widely to mobilize people or resources to achieve a common goal, originated from the Hindu word Har (to Praise) and Ambe (an Indian goddess or deity) during the construction of the Kenya-Uganda railway in the early 1900’s.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby johneeG » 28 Oct 2014 08:27

Anantha wrote:Malek Taus:
Taus means peacock , Malek comes from the word Malaikavalan (protector of mountain, Murugan). Yazidis also believe in a mythical home land Perini (Pazani in tamil). This from a tweet of a Yazidi prof in US. I dont have the link.


It seems that Maalaka means Angel or messenger. This word seems to have Sanskruth origin as JEM saar guessed and RajeshA saar showed.

RajeshA wrote:
JE Menon wrote:So is the notion that Melek "points to" Murugan. It more likely is a derivative from Malak in Hebrew which means "messenger" or "angel" I suppose.

I will not be in the least bit surprised if "Malaka" is one of the words for "Angel" or "Fairy" in Sanskrit, because that is basically what it means in Malayalam - which is either a derivative or has a hell of a lot of borrowed words.


In Sanskrit malAkA means female messenger.

I do not contest that Melek among Yezidis could have same origin as mal'āk̠ in Hebrew. But then Torah itself need not be considered a very old text. I've read it was compiled after 800 BCE. The word Melek could be in the region among various communities before that, including among the Yezidis.




Anantha wrote:


Anantha saar,
I just watched a little bit of this video and it seemed nonsensical. The first thing is that he talks about Hindhu connections as Thamil connections as if Thamil religion is different from Hindhu religion. He talks about Yazidi women lighting a lamp looking similar to Thamil women lighting a lamp. This guy may not have travelled much in Bhaarath. If he did, then he would realize that this Yazidi women lighting a lamp looks very similar to any South-Bhaarathiya lighting a lamp. I said South-Bhaarathiya because the Hindhu culture seems more well-preserved in South in certain aspects because of less Islamic invasions in south.

The point is that what he talks about are not Thamil connections but Hindhu connections. Murugan or Peacock are Hindhu icons.

Peacock seems to be specially interesting. Lotus is an icon that is copied by Buddhists and Jains from Hindhus. But, Peacock seems to have been only used by Hindhus. Peacocks symbolize Brahmacharya. Peacock feathers are sported by Jain sadhus also.

So, Yazidis have either Hindhu or Jain connection. Yazidis not eating lettuce also is either Hindhu or Jain connection. The entire middle-east and eastern-europe seems to have had Shri Krushna worship before buddhism(or X-ism) became dominant.

Shri Krushna is closely connected to Peacocks. So, Yazidis could also have been the worshipers of Lord Krushna. Now, peacocks are connected to Saraswathi, Kaumaari, Kumara(Murugan/Skandha) or Krushna in Hindhuism. So, Yazidis could be connected to any of these.

But, there is a clue: Yazidis don't wear blue.
Now, blue is connected to only Krushna. It is not connected to Saraswathi, Kaumaari or Kumara(Murugan/Skandha).

One could say that Yazidis don't wear blue because blue is the color of Peacock. But then, green is also found prominently on peacock and there doesn't seem to be any ban on green among yazidis. So, ban on blue is not due to peacocks but due to Krushna.

Lord Krushna is frequently portrayed as blue-colored God.
Image
Notice the peacock feather on Krushna's head.

Infact, not just Yazidis, but the entire region seems to have the connection of peacocks and Krushna or Vaishnava.

Goharshad mosque in Mashad in Iran seems to have peacock symbolism very prominently(Blue color is also used prominently in this mosque):
Image

Image
A closer picture of the peacocks on the door shows some some small idol. Some say that this idol is that of Vishnu.

Image

The above photograph shows the detail of the ceiling, decorated in multicolored majolica, of the Mashhad MOSQUE in Iran. Look to the left of the photograph directly underneath the leftmost peacock’s feet and you will suddenly notice the unmistakeable statue of Shree Vishnu Bhagvan seated in lotus pose with Shankh and lotus in his hands. This is clear hard evidence of the fact that many of the mosques in Islamic countries such as Iran were originally Vedic Temples.

This can be supported by the fact that the peacock is a bird indigenous to India and central to Hindu religious iconology. The peacock is not native to Iran nor is the use of iconography encouraged by Islam. Figurative sculpture especially is forbidden in Islam as this amounts to idolatory.

In addition please observe the typically Hindu stylized lotus pattern background upon which the sculpture of Shree Vishnu is superimposed in relief. One must logically conclude that this photograph is visual evidence of the Vedic Origin of the Mosque in Mashhad, Iran.


Link

The point I am trying to make is that Yazidis are not an isolated entities. Rather, they are a link in the chain. The entire middle-east and eastern-europe seems to have connections to Krushna before Buddhism triumphed and finally it mutated into X-ism and Mo-ism.

Yazidis happen to be less mutated. Others have mutated more.

Another point is that most of X-ist and Mo-ist buildings are merely occupied buildings/sites of previous religions. This attitude is inherited from Buddhism.

In christianity, peacocks seem to symbolize immortality. Like everything else, this is also copied from Buddhism. In Vajrayana Buddhism, peacocks meat is considered to bestow immortality and is used in initiations.

Peacocks in Ancient European art:
Image
beautiful mosaic of a peacock, Roman villa of Tellaro, Noto, Sicily, Italy, Europe

Link

wiki wrote:Juno (Latin: Iūno [ˈjuːno]) is an ancient Roman goddess, the protector and special counselor of the state. She is a daughter of Saturn and sister (but also the wife) of the chief god Jupiter and the mother of Mars and Vulcan. Juno also looked after the women of Rome.[1] Her Greek equivalent was Hera.[2] Her Etruscan counterpart was Uni. As the patron goddess of Rome and the Roman Empire, Juno was called Regina ("Queen") and, together with Jupiter and Minerva, was worshipped as a triad on the Capitol (Juno Capitolina) in Rome.

Juno's own warlike aspect among the Romans is apparent in her attire. She often appeared sitting pictured with a peacock[3] armed and wearing a goatskin cloak. The traditional depiction of this warlike aspect was assimilated from the Greek goddess Hera, whose goatskin was called the 'aegis'.


Additionally Juno plays a role in Ovid's "Metamorphoses". One story in particular describes why the Peacock is sacred to her.[213]


Link

In Greek, 'Ja' is actually 'Ya'. So, 'Juno' is 'Yuno'.(In Etruscan, its called Uni). So, this seems like the word 'Yoni'. 'Yoni' in Sanskruth refers to Vagina i.e. place from which all creatures are born.

The idea seems to be that Juno or Uni is a Mother-Goddess. She represents a combination of Lakshmi, Saraswathi and Parvathi. The saraswathi aspect is represented using the peacock.
Image

Picture of Saraswathi:
Image

The Parvathi aspect is represented in war-clothes. The exact aspect of Parvathi seems to be Goddess 'Hera'(or Hara). In short Roman and Greek religions were very similar to Hindhuism.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 28 Oct 2014 08:50

johneeG wrote:
Anantha saar,
I just watched a little bit of this video and it seemed nonsensical.


Yeah - that video talks about Lemuria and all that crap

Here is a much better video - it is just a radio interview with images, but worth listening. The "Yazidi in English" video mentioned in the earlier video is uninformative. The video below also mentions Yazidis in India and their migration to India

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWH8GAgtV2U

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Virendra » 31 Oct 2014 19:10

This has impact on study of paleo environment and its human interaction in the Indian subcontinent...

Ostrich expansion into India during the Late Pleistocene: Implications for continental dispersal corridors
https://www.academia.edu/8976802/Ostric ... _corridors
Abstract :
New evidence is presented for the earliest occurrence of ostrich (Struthio sp.) in India during the Late Pleistocene along with a synthesis on the evidence for ostrich populations in the subcontinent. Direct dating of ostrich eggshell using Accelerator Mass Spectrometry (AMS) radiocarbon methods on excavated samples from Katoati, Rajasthan, India, are supported by Optically Stimulated Luminesence (OSL) dating of associated sediments to demonstrate the arrival of ostrich in India before 60 thousand years ago (ka). In addition, the first stable isotope studies on ostrich eggshell from India have been conducted, yielding a new form of palaeoenvironmental proxy data for the Late Pleistocene. The geographic expansion of ostrich into India corresponds with the distribution of Sahel-like environments, bordering but not substantially colonising endemic Indian vegetation zones. The dispersal of ostrich into India marks a rare introduction of megafauna into the subcontinent during the Late Pleistocene, the longevity of which spans a period more than 40 ka. The timespan and range of this colonisation indicates the availability and exploitation of suitable habitats in India. The continental dispersal of ostrich into India during the Late Pleistocene offers useful insights into the debate surrounding the dispersal of modern humans, and contrasts with the hypothesized coastal movement of Homo sapiens into India.

Highlights :-
-- Oldest directly dated evidence for Late Pleistocene expansion of
-- Struthio into India First stable isotope study of Late Pleistocene ostrich eggshell in India Synthesis of existing evidence for
-- Struthio populations in South Asia
-- Struthio expansion associated with extension of Sahel-like habitats

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby A_Gupta » 01 Nov 2014 17:59


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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Nilesh Oak » 01 Nov 2014 20:29

RajeshA ji and Shiv ji

Sent you an email. Please check.

Nilesh

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby vsunder » 02 Nov 2014 03:49

self-deleted, earlier post already noted my observation.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Murugan » 12 Nov 2014 20:09

Hypotheses of a Mesopotamian origin for the Vedic and Chinese star calendars are unfounded. The Yangshao culture burials discovered at Puyang in 1987 suggest that the beginnings of Chinese astronomy go back to the late fourth millennium. The instructive similarities between the Chinese and Indian luni-solar calendrical astronomy and cosmology therefore with great likelihood result from convergent parallel development and not from diffusion.

In what follows, I propose that the first Indian stellar calendar, perhaps restricted to the quadrant stars, was created by Early Harappans around 3000 BCE, and that the heliacal rise of Aldebaran at vernal equinox marked the new year.



http://a.harappa.com/content/beginnings ... ment-china

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Murugan » 12 Nov 2014 20:34

Johnee G
Swastika in other cultures in 5th/6th Century BCE

Image
THRACE, Chersonesos. Circa 386-338 BC. AR Hemidrachm (15mm, 2.22 g)

Image
CORINTHIA, Corinth. Circa 550-500 BC. AR Stater (24mm, 7.87 g)

Image
MACEDON, Akanthos. Circa 470-390 BC. AR Tetrobol (14mm, 2.43 g)

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby RajeshA » 13 Nov 2014 18:05

How harmful AIT is proving out to be!

Image

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 13 Nov 2014 18:09

RajeshA wrote:How harmful AIT is proving out to be!

More than AIT it is our flawed education with an alternative accurate narrative not being passed on to people.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Prem » 18 Nov 2014 03:38

http://www.terrypatten.com/blog/the-mar ... -289227541
The Marriage of Science & Spirit: Negotiating the Great Pre-Nup

During the last couple of weeks my inbox has been filled with eloquent emails from Deepak Chopra, Duane Elgin, Sam Harris, James O’Dea, Bruce Sanguin, Michael Dowd, Elisabet Sathouris, and many others — all about the nature of authentic “rational” or “scientific” spirituality. And I have been talking about some of these same issues with Ken Wilber, Andrew Harvey, Craig Hamilton, Duane Elgin and Rick Hanson. Hundreds of smaller conversations are ebbing and flowing — and to a certain degree, they’re all about a single, big topic.Under the surface of things, and completely invisible to most observers, a great indirect “negotiation” is taking place — one with enormous implications for the future course of human culture.The mind of rational science is reconciling itself with the truths encountered via spirituality, and the mind of trans-rational spirituality is reconciling itself more rigorously to the penetrating clarities of rigorous, evidence-based rationality. Each is realizing that they must reckon more fully with the other’s incontrovertible truths. That means they’re converging, headed for a “marriage” of sorts. This marriage, as it ripples through world culture, is likely to mark an epochal cultural sea-change.I think that among our most prescient, original thinkers, there's a dawning awareness that the coming together of rationality with spirituality, the "marriage of science and spirit" is THE big thing happening now in terms of cultural evolution—an event on the scale of the Reformation or the Enlightenment. It is the most significant intellectual and cultural event of our time and it will reshape the future of human affairs.


( is this not what Swami Vivekanada told them in 1890s? Not Evolution but Involution which will be the right intutional path then they will all be Hanoods in actual sense )


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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby RajeshA » 21 Nov 2014 16:12



Lo gayi Aryan Bhains paani men!

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Vayutuvan » 21 Nov 2014 19:56

Nth at is big news for outif India theory and (final?) stake in the heart of AIT/amt. or is it? Nature online should be easy to get hold of. Would witzel farmer duo be saying something I wonder.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby disha » 22 Nov 2014 03:00

RajeshA wrote:


Lo gayi Aryan Bhains paani men!


Or rather, Aryan Ghoda gaya ghaans chaarne :rotfl:

That was the big news - and it just struck me - the mythical unicorn horse on the symbols from Saraswati Valley could be "Rhino + Horse" - a kind of chimera which is as powerful as a rhino and as swift as a horse (or could be depicting some kind of a real rhino which might be endangered during their time - like pandas are endangered now but are symbol for WWF and the noodle houses).

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Murugan » 22 Nov 2014 09:46

The original article of Aryan Bhains and Indian Ghoda in John Hopkins University website

http://hub.jhu.edu/2014/11/20/india-fos ... ssodactyla

Ancient relative of horses, rhinos originated in India more than 50 million years ago, fossils show
"Finding sheds light on the evolution of this group of animals"

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Murugan » 22 Nov 2014 10:01

Posting in full, as the newspaper report, looks to be uncertain about the details

Ancient relative of horses, rhinos originated in India more than 50 million years ago, fossils show
Finding sheds light on the evolution of this group of animals

Shawna Williams / 2 days ago
Posted in Science+Technology
Tagged anatomy, archaeology

Working at the edge of a coal mine in India, a team of Johns Hopkins researchers and colleagues have filled in a major gap in science's understanding of the evolution of a group of animals that includes horses and rhinos. That group likely originated on the subcontinent when it was still an island headed swiftly for collision with Asia, the researchers report today in the online journal Nature Communications.

Modern horses, rhinos, and tapirs belong to a biological group, or order, called Perissodactyla. Also known as "odd-toed ungulates," animals in the order have, as their name implies, an uneven number of toes on their hind feet and a distinctive digestive system. Though paleontologists had found remains of Perissodactyla from as far back as the beginnings of the Eocene epoch (about 56 million years ago), their earlier evolution remained a mystery, says Ken Rose, a professor of functional anatomy and evolution at the Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine.

Rose and his research team have for years been excavating mammal fossils in the Bighorn Basin of Wyoming, but in 2001 he and Indian colleagues began exploring Eocene sediments in Western India because it had been suggested that perissodactyls and some other mammal groups might have originated there. In an open-pit coal mine northeast of Mumbai, they uncovered a rich vein of ancient bones. Rose says he and his collaborators obtained funding from the National Geographic Society to send a research team to the mine site at Gujarat in the far Western part of India for two weeks at a time once every year or two over the past decade.

The mine yielded what Rose says was a treasure trove of teeth and bones for the researchers to comb through back in their home laboratories. Of these, more than 200 fossils belonged to an animal dubbed Cambaytherium thewissi, about which little had been known. The researchers dated the fossils to about 54.5 million years old, making them slightly younger than the oldest known Perissodactyla remains. But, Rose says, the findings provide a window into what a common ancestor of all Perissodactyla would have looked like.

"Many of Cambaytherium's features, like the teeth, the number of sacral vertebrae, and the bones of the hands and feet, are intermediate between Perissodactyla and more primitive animals," Rose says. "This is the closest thing we've found to a common ancestor of the Perissodactyla order."

Cambaytherium and other finds from the Gujarat coal mine also provide tantalizing clues about India's separation from Madagascar, its lonely migration, and its eventual collision with the continent of Asia as the Earth's plates shifted, Rose says. In 1990, two researchers from Stony Brook University, David Krause and Mary Maas, published a paper suggesting that several groups of mammals that appear at the beginning of the Eocene—including primates and odd- and even-toed ungulates—might have evolved in India while it was isolated. Cambaytherium is the first concrete evidence to support that idea, Rose says. But, he adds, "it's not a simple story."

"Around Cambaytherium's time, we think India was an island, but it also had primates and a rodent similar to those living in Europe at the time," he says. "One possible explanation is that India passed close by the Arabian Peninsula or the Horn of Africa, and there was a land bridge that allowed the animals to migrate. But Cambaytherium is unique and suggests that India was indeed isolated for a while."

Rose said his team was "very fortunate that we discovered the site and that the mining company allowed us to work there," although, he added, "it was frustrating to know that countless fossils were being chewed up by heavy mining equipment."

When coal extraction was finished, the miners covered the site, he says. His team has now found other mines in the area to continue digging.

Other authors on the study were Luke T. Holbrook of Rowan University, Rajendra S. Rana of Garhwal University, Kishor Kumar of the Wadia Institute of Himalayan Geology, Katrina E. Jones and Heather E. Ahrens of Johns Hopkins University, Pieter Missiaen of Ghent University, Ashok Sahni of Panjab University, and Thierry Smith of the Royal Belgian Institute of Natural Sciences.


Read the comment section too, it is interesting

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby RajeshA » 22 Nov 2014 18:36

Early Eocene fossils suggest that the mammalian order Perissodactyla originated in India
Authors: Kenneth D. Rose, Luke T. Holbrook, Rajendra S. Rana, Kishor Kumar, Katrina E. Jones, Heather E. Ahrens, Pieter Missiaen, Ashok Sahni & Thierry Smith
Publication Date: Nov 20 2014

Abstract:
Cambaytheres (Cambaytherium, Nakusia and Kalitherium) are recently discovered early Eocene placental mammals from the Indo–Pakistan region. They have been assigned to either Perissodactyla (the clade including horses, tapirs and rhinos, which is a member of the superorder Laurasiatheria) or Anthracobunidae, an obscure family that has been variously considered artiodactyls or perissodactyls, but most recently placed at the base of Proboscidea or of Tethytheria (Proboscidea+Sirenia, superorder Afrotheria). Here we report new dental, cranial and postcranial fossils of Cambaytherium, from the Cambay Shale Formation, Gujarat, India (~54.5 Myr). These fossils demonstrate that cambaytheres occupy a pivotal position as the sister taxon of Perissodactyla, thereby providing insight on the phylogenetic and biogeographic origin of Perissodactyla. The presence of the sister group of perissodactyls in western India near or before the time of collision suggests that Perissodactyla may have originated on the Indian Plate during its final drift toward Asia.

Ancient relative of horses, rhinos originated in India more than 50 million years ago, fossils show
Finding sheds light on the evolution of this group of animals

By Shawna Williams
Publication Date: Nov 20 2014

Working at the edge of a coal mine in India, a team of Johns Hopkins researchers and colleagues have filled in a major gap in science's understanding of the evolution of a group of animals that includes horses and rhinos. That group likely originated on the subcontinent when it was still an island headed swiftly for collision with Asia, the researchers report today in the online journal Nature Communications.

Modern horses, rhinos, and tapirs belong to a biological group, or order, called Perissodactyla. Also known as "odd-toed ungulates," animals in the order have, as their name implies, an uneven number of toes on their hind feet and a distinctive digestive system. Though paleontologists had found remains of Perissodactyla from as far back as the beginnings of the Eocene epoch (about 56 million years ago), their earlier evolution remained a mystery, says Ken Rose, a professor of functional anatomy and evolution at the Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine.

Rose and his research team have for years been excavating mammal fossils in the Bighorn Basin of Wyoming, but in 2001 he and Indian colleagues began exploring Eocene sediments in Western India because it had been suggested that perissodactyls and some other mammal groups might have originated there. In an open-pit coal mine northeast of Mumbai, they uncovered a rich vein of ancient bones. Rose says he and his collaborators obtained funding from the National Geographic Society to send a research team to the mine site at Gujarat in the far Western part of India for two weeks at a time once every year or two over the past decade.

The mine yielded what Rose says was a treasure trove of teeth and bones for the researchers to comb through back in their home laboratories. Of these, more than 200 fossils belonged to an animal dubbed Cambaytherium thewissi, about which little had been known. The researchers dated the fossils to about 54.5 million years old, making them slightly younger than the oldest known Perissodactyla remains. But, Rose says, the findings provide a window into what a common ancestor of all Perissodactyla would have looked like.

"Many of Cambaytherium's features, like the teeth, the number of sacral vertebrae, and the bones of the hands and feet, are intermediate between Perissodactyla and more primitive animals," Rose says. "This is the closest thing we've found to a common ancestor of the Perissodactyla order."

Cambaytherium and other finds from the Gujarat coal mine also provide tantalizing clues about India's separation from Madagascar, its lonely migration, and its eventual collision with the continent of Asia as the Earth's plates shifted, Rose says. In 1990, two researchers from Stony Brook University, David Krause and Mary Maas, published a paper suggesting that several groups of mammals that appear at the beginning of the Eocene—including primates and odd- and even-toed ungulates—might have evolved in India while it was isolated. Cambaytherium is the first concrete evidence to support that idea, Rose says. But, he adds, "it's not a simple story."

"Around Cambaytherium's time, we think India was an island, but it also had primates and a rodent similar to those living in Europe at the time," he says. "One possible explanation is that India passed close by the Arabian Peninsula or the Horn of Africa, and there was a land bridge that allowed the animals to migrate. But Cambaytherium is unique and suggests that India was indeed isolated for a while."

Rose said his team was "very fortunate that we discovered the site and that the mining company allowed us to work there," although, he added, "it was frustrating to know that countless fossils were being chewed up by heavy mining equipment."

When coal extraction was finished, the miners covered the site, he says. His team has now found other mines in the area to continue digging.

Other authors on the study were Luke T. Holbrook of Rowan University, Rajendra S. Rana of Garhwal University, Kishor Kumar of the Wadia Institute of Himalayan Geology, Katrina E. Jones and Heather E. Ahrens of Johns Hopkins University, Pieter Missiaen of Ghent University, Ashok Sahni of Panjab University, and Thierry Smith of the Royal Belgian Institute of Natural Sciences.


So horses and rhinoceros (and tapirs) belong to the same family, Perissodactyla, and the bones of the common ancestor Cambaytherium thewissi were found in Western India and are dated to around 54.5 million years ago, to a time before Indian continental plate collided with the Asian continental plate.

Here is one depiction of this common ancestor:

Image

And then we have the Ekashringa, the Indian Unicorn, known from the seals found in Mohenjo-daro and Harappa, and elsewhere. Since horse and rhinoceros have a common ancestry, it is not at all inconceivable to have an animal which has attributes of both - horse and rhino!

Image

Not only horses were evolved in India, but the Ekashringa itself may have existed on the Indian Subcontinent. People have written that the Varaha Avatar was not a boar but rather an Ekashringa.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Ashok Sarraff » 23 Nov 2014 00:34

Can someone guide me on how to obtain a copy of "The Indus Dictionary" by Sue Sullivan. Looks like an interesting book that proposes Sanskrit as the language used in the Indus seals but its not available on Amazon at present. TIA.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Lalmohan » 23 Nov 2014 02:44

could the bull on the seal be a gaur or (now extinct) aurochs? the single horn depiction simply an artistic simplification?

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Agnimitra » 23 Nov 2014 10:06

RajeshA ji, the clinching evidence would be to show the domestication of horses in India, rather than just the presence of an ancestor species in India. Equus calibus, the so-called 'Aryan' horse, would evolve from this common ancestor millions of years later and that could have well happened outside India.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby RajeshA » 23 Nov 2014 17:01

Let the digging start!

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Virendra » 23 Nov 2014 20:20

About the horses, I think we already have a few points to begin with :-

viewtopic.php?f=24&t=6444&p=1510337&hilit=equus#p1510337

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3788&p=1632143&hilit=equus#p1632143

What remains is -
a) Further beefing up more evidence to prove Indian breeds ancestry being the Sivalensis.
b) Connecting the Sivalensis with this latest finding.

Regards,
Virendra

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Murugan » 24 Nov 2014 09:50

Ashok Sarraff wrote:Can someone guide me on how to obtain a copy of "The Indus Dictionary" by Sue Sullivan. Looks like an interesting book that proposes Sanskrit as the language used in the Indus seals but its not available on Amazon at present. TIA.


u can contact the author on kitab-e-chehra, alternatively PM me

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Ashok Sarraff » 24 Nov 2014 18:27

Murugan ji,

I don't have a Facebook account, but my email is my first name DOT my last name at Jeemail.com. Please note two r's and two f's in the last name. TIA.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby member_22872 » 24 Nov 2014 22:10


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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby fanne » 24 Nov 2014 22:52

I think all you Hinduvadis are getting it wrong. The ancestors of horses might have originated in India (and that is questionable, as the horse sample came from a very communal state, ruled 10 years when the said excavation happened by a a mass murder, moreover the study had inputs from people belonging to certain religion that lies - it has story about airplanes thousands of years ago), but then these horses migrated to Central Asia, the remaining ones in India committed suicide. In Central Asia, there was a group of people, white skinned, called Aryans, they spoke Proto -Indo European language, they domesticated these horses, inquired where they/their ancestors came from, forced rode back to a place call Harappa, massacred dark skinned people called Dravidian (9 skeleton found where head was severed from the body). In between, they encountered Rivers called Ganga, Jamuna etc.They also did not want to share their great language Proto whatever, they developed a limited language called Sanskrit (they developed much more sophisticated language such as English/German so that only similar skinned people can speak them) composed Vedas and thus gave Sanskrit and Vedas to native Dravidians. Then they also intermarried, renamed all the rivers as Ganga etc.
That is the real history!!

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Ashok Sarraff » 24 Nov 2014 23:08

^Yes, fanne ji, that's the True History. Also in their tribal mumbo-jumbo called Vedas, the White Aryans, also mentioned flora and fauna found in their native Central Asian homeland. Examples from Central Asia mentioned in Vedas include, Pipal tree, Dharbha grass, Gaura deer, Simha, Hastin, Chakravaka, and Mayura. The Superior Aryans named the flora and fauna they encountered in the dirty Dravid lands after what they were used to in their Central Asian homeland.

(Reference: The Homeland of the Aryans: Evidence of Rigvedic Flora and Fauna Archaeology by B.B. Lal)

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby vishvak » 24 Nov 2014 23:21

Going by facts, more like if there was an invasion then that would be on foot and clubs to steal horses from arya. The way libraries at the taksha-shil was burnt by al-mobs and later a few books 'made it' (algebra, al-chemistry, al-whatever) followed by claim that everything was invented by al-mobs onlee. Same goes for trigger happy colonials claiming now that Germans invented Sanskrit onlee and also dyes (for example indigo) and so on. So there are precedent too. So these people who invaded must have killed off horse like animals riding across the Hindukush mountains.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Ashok Sarraff » 24 Nov 2014 23:28

^Yes, there may be some truth to the idea. Rama and Krishna, the two primary heros of ancient India were both of dark complexion and Ravana was an (Aryan) Brahmin. So following the AIT, it was more like a Dravidian invasion rather than an Aryan one. Alternatively, we are all Dravidians from North to South. Either way its LOL AIT.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby vishvak » 24 Nov 2014 23:53

The barbaric invaders must have killed off one horned rhinos when they dragged them across the Hindukush mountains since only Aryan horses seem to have made it across. Hence stories about 'one horned powerful horses' made across (a la Alex the great drunkard romance) that bestowed luck (not stolen Aryan horses and eaten rhinos). Only the Chinese have not made claims of Aryan invasion theory and in fact acknowledge brown Aryans influencing culture (also teaching martial arts like jijitsu).

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby fanne » 25 Nov 2014 00:09

Hmm guys, 9 skeleton, or was it 3, makes an invasion and a massacre!!
I am sure, the new history will point out that lack of cut skeleton shows that Aryans were in fact loved and welcomed (but then that defeats the purpose of two group of Indians fighting as Dravidian and Aryans), and Dravidian had forgone their own culture and women (how later age religion of peace spread, the native oppressed population offered their women and committed suicide out of love and respect for the new religion). As for horses, the logic is simpler. "The Vedas was written by White skinned people called Aryans" from central asia, and it contains horses, the horses must have been in Central Asia. As long as you follow the theory in quotes, you can never be wrong. Horses, Pipla Tree, Ganges, peacock, EVERYTHINg was there in Central Asia. Wait for few years, even Sanskrit will originate there. Only some right wing wadis are going in the opposite direction, peacock in Inda, Pipal in India, horse in India so Aryans in India? Well sorry, that doesn't add up.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby vishvak » 25 Nov 2014 00:26

Sorry to gate crash your fantasy party, fanne ji, but I see invasions across thousands of years to steal horses, take slaves, then actual colonization and now history & religion too! AIT seems just amongst latest schemes.


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