Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

ramana
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Postby ramana » 30 Dec 2021 00:47

fanne wrote:my very simple question - what changed when CAS changed? - ...

All I am saying is that - why this adhocism? Suddenly Lca MK2 is not talked about? Why play this game of chicken with your government and national security? If you don't give MFRA I will not buy anything indigenous? I will not spend the money this year on an indigenous product so that after 5 years down the road, I can commit enough resources to MRFA? Or let the squadron strength drop to a dangerous level (it already has), so that it is enough bad that we may lose in war and force the government to panic to buy my favorite toy (MFRA). Why play that game? - That is how it looks to someone looking from outside, again I am not alleging that IAF is doing this (and I don't have any proof). With current funds even SU30MKI can be upgraded. With AESA (1-meter radar), modern EW suite (like Rafale) maybe it can pick J-20 at enough distance (say 150KM) so that it can shoot it down using SFDR or any long range missile. Imminently doable, but why not do that? Because suddenly the capability accretion will render MRFA not so urgent?


The second Covid Wave and the upcoming five state elections have given encouragement and hope to dalali networks.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Postby nachiket » 30 Dec 2021 01:02

Rakesh wrote:What do you think Air Chief Marshal VR Chaudhuri is really going to do? Tell the PMO that the IAF does not want the Tejas Mk2? You think that is going to pass muster with the PMO or the MoD? This absence of him not mentioning the Tejas Mk2 is purely because Air HQ wants a follow on batch of Rafales. If that is acquired, this same air force will place an order for Tejas Mk2 when it is ready.

Decisions for any possible MRFA and the Tejas Mk2 orders will be made long after ACM Chaudhari has retired. Not mentioning even the name of the Mk2 does seem deliberate IMHO though. Whether that reflects the ACM's personal feelings or that of the IAF higher command in general is unknown. But I do hope and believe it is the former considering that others like AM Nambiar seemed quite enthusiastic about the Mk2. And as good experience from the Mk1 and Mk1A builds up more IAF leaders will talk and think like AM Nambiar.

As for the PM and MoD, MRFA deal will happen after 2024 elections (if it does happen) and Mk2 orders likely after 2028. No way to know who will be the PM and DM at those times and what their views on Atmanirbharta would be (or whether they would be even bothered about such stuff at all).

ramana
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Postby ramana » 30 Dec 2021 01:07

You are not correct. It will be soon made for geopolitics can't wait.
its no longer "Nanda Rajyo bhavisihate!"

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Postby nachiket » 30 Dec 2021 01:24

ramana wrote:You are not correct. It will be soon made for geopolitics can't wait.
its no longer "Nanda Rajyo bhavisihate!"

ramana ji, Mk2 first flight is scheduled for early 2023. We have to account for at least 4 years of testing (which itself would be quite fast) along with the fact that the Mk1A deliveries will likely continue till 2028. So how will Mk2 get ordered in quantity before then?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Postby ramana » 30 Dec 2021 10:32

In principle decision can be announced.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Postby Pratyush » 30 Dec 2021 11:41

nachiket wrote:ramana ji, Mk2 first flight is scheduled for early 2023. We have to account for at least 4 years of testing (which itself would be quite fast) along with the fact that the Mk1A deliveries will likely continue till 2028. So how will Mk2 get ordered in quantity before then?


If Tejas mk1a is sufficient for meeting current and near future requirements for the IAF. Then the initial Mk2 builds can just be MK1A systems in the Mk2 frame. While the subsequent builds work up to full capacity. As envisioned for the platform.

That way the aircraft can be made to enter into service by 2026 to 2027 time frame.

Provided, the flight test program has not revealed any fatal flaws.

Similarly, if the Mk2 has not been certified in the planned timelines. Then the MK1A can continue to be built but with the subsystems developed for Mk2.

We have reached a stage of technical competence where this is a reasonable assumption to make.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Postby Bishwa » 30 Dec 2021 23:20

Barath wrote:https://www.ajaishukla.com/2021/12/air-force-clears-tejas-mark-2-design.html?m=1

has information on Mk1 and Mk1A. eg Details of the 25 concessions given for Mk1 FOC. 12 have been addressed or to be validated. Excerpts included below

It will have the ASRAAM



Ajai mentions range of 60-70KM for ASRAAM. That is hard to believe, ASRAAM is Short Range AAM.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Postby nachiket » 31 Dec 2021 01:29

Pratyush wrote:
nachiket wrote:ramana ji, Mk2 first flight is scheduled for early 2023. We have to account for at least 4 years of testing (which itself would be quite fast) along with the fact that the Mk1A deliveries will likely continue till 2028. So how will Mk2 get ordered in quantity before then?


If Tejas mk1a is sufficient for meeting current and near future requirements for the IAF. Then the initial Mk2 builds can just be MK1A systems in the Mk2 frame. While the subsequent builds work up to full capacity. As envisioned for the platform.

I don't understand what that would even entail. If the airframe is that of the Mk2, the engine has to be the F414 as well. Flight control laws have to be new. Mk1A's larger radar cannot fit into the Mk2's nose either. So what is left really? All you can hope to reuse is the RWR (and skip the Mk2's internal SPJ) and maybe cockpit avionics. You cannot get around testing and validation of airframe, engine, FCS and weapon integration which is what will take the most time.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Postby Barath » 31 Dec 2021 13:25

Bishwa wrote:Ajai mentions range of 60-70KM for ASRAAM. That is hard to believe, ASRAAM is Short Range AAM.


Yes, ASRAAM is analogous in some ways to MICA. Higher range, IR guided fire and forget missile. And it will be on DARIN III Jaguar
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASRAAM#ASRAAM_P3I

ASRAAM is intended to detect and launch against targets at much longer ranges, as far as early versions of the AMRAAM, in order to shoot down the enemy long before it closes enough to be able to fire its own weapons. In this respect the ASRAAM shares more in common with the [earlier] AMRAAM than other IR missiles, although it retains high manoeuvrability.

....[It has a ] seeker with "long acquisition range, high countermeasures resistance, approximately 90-degree off-boresight lock-on capability, and the possibility to designate specific parts of the targeted aircraft (like cockpit, engines, etc.).The ASRAAM also has a LOAL (Lock-On After Launch) ability which is a distinct advantage when the missile is carried in an internal bay such as in the F-35 Lightning II. The ASRAAM warhead is triggered either by laser proximity fuse or impact. [Laser was picked for improved ECM resistance over RF fuses]


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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Postby Haridas » 01 Jan 2022 01:26

A Deshmukh wrote:If only IAF had ordered few squadrons of Tejas IOC/FOC in 2010-2015 timeframe, we could have retired Mig-21s earlier.
Instead IAF chose to call it a 3-legged cheetah and wanted Mk2 instead.

Ironically, IAF does not want Mk2 now.

IAF leadership in last 20 yrs has chosen to stew in its own juice.

Why complain about pilot dying in aircrash? If only IAF fighter pilots had auto flying F22 all this bloody mess would not have happened. Till then make it more macabre, Aka cut your own nose to spite your own face. :roll:

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Postby Haridas » 01 Jan 2022 01:30

csaurabh wrote:We as Indians have the old world 'poor' mentality of keep using the old product as long as possible.
Need to get into consumerist and mass production mode. Your aircraft has an expiry date, just like your shoe and smartphone. Scrap the old and maintain a constantly running production system to replace it with the new. Ironically this has better economics because of how mass production works with economies of scale (something that our AF doesn't seem to understand).

Sure get the world's best economist as PM coated with Teflon, so responsibility for disarming Indian military does not stick for acts of treason for a proxy PM by a proxy Saint Defense Minister. Buying a tall ceiling, low flying VVIP helicopter not withstanding.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Postby Haridas » 01 Jan 2022 01:38

rajsunder wrote:
konaseema wrote:At the end of the day, IAF has to wake up and smell its coffee and make the decision to order 4 additional squadrons of Tejas Mk1/A & commit to a minimum of 10 squadrons of Tejas Mk2. We need a minimum of 20 squadrons of Tejas Single Engine jets. With the maturity DRDO is exhibiting in the area of A2A & A2G missiles, IAF should put faith in HAL to build these jets. Indian government should announce PLI in the defense aerospace sector and bring in a consortium of Indian private players (not more than 2 companies) to establish another aircraft manufacturer, who will invest in the additional capacity that HAL doesn't have, to manufacture these jets. This company might be the same one with whom HAL is going to partner to manufacture AMCA. It is foolish from the Indian government's part and that of IAF to not invest in additional manufacturing lines at HAL or another company to keep the cost of Tejas aircrafts low. The capex that will be invested now can be amortized once the export orders are realized. Another option can be to hire more resources at HAL to bring down the manufacturing time of Tejas aircrafts further, if that is doable.

PLI like schemes are not needed. Assured purchases are what are needed.
Also MK2 should have been a joint project with a private player(s). HAL should have hand held these companies and made them a part of development effort.


Kya saar, Chandigarh club children will die of hunger, and their firangee masters lose bonuses. IAF and MOD only cogs in the wheel not the "prime movers".

Illusion onreeee..

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Postby Haridas » 01 Jan 2022 01:40

Prem Kumar wrote:Sadly, this is my read of the incumbent as well. OT here, but the GOI could have been more careful in its succession planning, taking Atmanirbhar alignment as a key criterion. Hope they don't repeat this in the future. I'll leave it at that.

Incumbent will be drinking molten lead in few months.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Postby Haridas » 01 Jan 2022 01:42

fanne wrote:But how would Goi know what about the incumbent? What if next 10 in line are no better?

Perhaps let IA have its own fixed wing combat aircraft? That was we are not jeopardized by some systematic foul/wrong thinking or idea?

Let IN air wing (expanded hugely) for combat all over peninsular India, air craft carriers and islands. Maybe some of their planes (like Mig 29k in 2020) take part in air to air war over Lac or LOc.

On the dot.
Like other major countries where Air Force only fly strategic crafts.


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