INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby aditp » 21 Dec 2009 10:27

Yes I do recall having seen the same / similar pics. However, floor tilings in cement and reactor pipings in cement are two very different things.

I havent seen any small / medium dia (<0.75m) concrete pipes to date, nor any curved ones of the type that may be required for routing fluids inside the reactor vessel.

Hence the doubt. Lead shielding of metallic pipes appears to be more accurate a description.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby Marut » 21 Dec 2009 12:12

Concrete is also used for radiation shielding. You will have layers of lead sandwiched between the concrete covering the reactor piping and maybe even some of the reactor compartment. More cost effective and easy to maintain than one solid layer of lead shielding.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby Dileep » 21 Dec 2009 13:00

While reading the article, I thought it was a google translation of a chinese article, till I saw the link to the Motorma(uth)'r blog.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby aditp » 21 Dec 2009 14:29

Dileep wrote:While reading the article, I thought it was a google translation of a chinese article, till I saw the link to the Motorma(uth)'r blog.

The spymaster spooketh. So when is the new story coming. I see you now have the time to write on BRF

Sorry for being OT.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby Manish_Sharma » 21 Dec 2009 14:33

^^Yes! Heart is longing sooooooo muuuccch! Hope your boss gives another spell of less work soon! :)

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby Shankar » 21 Dec 2009 14:51

Probably more than 90% of the stationary reactor systems designed for power
production are shielded with concrete. As an illustration, of twenty-three
test-reactor shields described in a 1958 survey published by the Radiation
Shielding Information Center Cll]4 six used both heavy and ordinary concrete,
eleven used only ordinary concrete, and five used only heavy concrete. Only
one shield is described without concrete. Fourteen contained water: eleven
were swimming pool reactors, two were boiling-water reactors, and one was a
homogeneous solution. Three others included heavy water. Other materials
mentioned were iron, steel, wet sand, boral, graphite, borated graphite, polyethylene,
earth, and boric acid. Most of the materials used in the experimental
reactor shields, other than concrete, such as iron, lead, and graphite,
individually have poor structural or radiation shielding properties; but, when
combined in laminated configurations, result in extremely good shields. Other
materials that have been used in large quantity for shielding are compacted
soil, iron, lead, and water. RSIC includes all these aaterials in its coverage.
The following materials have received much attention.
(a) Water. Because of the success of the swimming pool reactor as a
research tool and of its derivative, the pressurized water reactor, as a
pioneer power source, water layers are found in reactor-shield analyses almost
as often as concrete. Hater is an excellent neutron attenuator because of its
large hydrogen content. It is an inferior attenuator of gamma rays because of
.its low electron density.
Considerations when water is used as a shield material include containment,
temperature control, corrosion, and purification (demineralization).
(b) Lead. Best of the conventional materials for gamma-ray attenuation,
lead is exceeded only by uranium. Lead bricks are to be found in almost every
radiation laboratory as portable shield bricks.
Lead shct makes good filler for cavities in plugs and doors in shields.
If provision is made for extracting the filler in place, it becomes a great
convenience should it become necessary to dismantle or remove the door*
(c) Graphite. A good neutron moderator and reflector material, graphite
is used extensively in reactor design. Besides its use as a reflector-moderator,
it is also found in thermal shields and occasionally as a primary shield material.
(d) Iron. Iron is almost always present in the reactor structure as steel
and is used for thermal shields and pressure vessels.
(e) Boron. This element is used principally to absorb thermal neutrons.
Pure boron has also been used as an additive to polyethylene and graphite to
add neutron absorption properties to good neutron attenuators. It has also
.been added to seme steels to reduce secondary gamma-ray productions and activation
problems of iron.
(f) Concrete. Since concrete is a mixture of materials, the mixture can
be tailored to provide optimum structural and shielding properties.
Height, rather than cost, is generally the principal design criteria in
the application to mobile reactor systems. The emphasis,therefore, shifts to
the improved shielding provided by the so-called exotic materials used in layered
combination.


source MATERIALS INFORMATION IN THE RADIATION SHIELDING INFORMATION CENTER*
B. F. Maskewitz, D. K. Trubey, R. W. Roussin
Radiation Shielding Information Center
Oak Ridge National Laboratory-
Oak Ridge, Tennessee
April 1974
-NOTICE
This
report was prepared as an account of work
sponsored by the United States Government. Neither
the United States nor the United States Atomic Energy
Commission, nor any of their employees, nor any of
their contractors, subcontractors, or their employees,
makes any warranty, express or implied, or assumes an>
legal liability or responsibility for the accuracy, completeness
or usefulness of any information, apparatus,
product or process disclosed, or represents that its use
would not infring.' privately owned rights.
*Research


concrete is in fact a good radiation shielding materail and cheapest so its use in arihant shielding makes ample sense since it is much lighter and can be used with embedded lead liner

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby aditp » 21 Dec 2009 16:03

^^^^ (a couple of posts)

My observation was only against the claim of concrete pipes as against concrete shielding of metallic pipes

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby shyamd » 31 Jan 2010 07:47

Found an old article from IOL about Russian deal on ATV. Article was dated 2002. ATV is based on Severodvinsk class type 885. ATV was a joint Indo-Russky project. The Akula(2 will be on lease) deal with Russia helped finance ATV.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby Gagan » 31 Jan 2010 11:07

One reason why the sail of the Arihant looks like the Kilos is so that it be somewhat indistinguishable from the kilos if just the sail is over water. </piskology>

We've heard of the Severodvinsk class == ATV in the past. If possible please post that article (type it if there is no online link) so we can discuss.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby shyamd » 31 Jan 2010 16:41

I can only get snippets and that was the most I was able to get.

BTW I have a feeling the west is involved in India getting the ATV as well. I am pretty sure they had a small part to play in certain areas.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby kit » 31 Jan 2010 20:24

like the electronic masts and counter measures equipment., they came along with the scorpene deal i think.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby NRao » 31 Jan 2010 21:32

On "concrete" pipes, it does not seem to be the regular concrete. In addition to the reinforcements we should expect the mixture to be very, very exotic.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby sum » 31 Jan 2010 22:12

Even after so many months, there is still not a SINGLE pic ( even from a distance) of the Arihant?

Even if other countries had got hold of pics, they would have surely leaked it on the net to let everyone know that Arihant isn't secret any more but even that hasnt happened.

Wonder how long this jingo will have to wait before catching a glimpse of the Indian dusky bombshell?

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby shyamd » 31 Jan 2010 23:21

Well, the chiefs of project(senior mgt of project) were in the islands 1 week after launch, Raaa providing intelligence to support subradar/sonar. Makes you wonder what they were doing there, so soon after launch.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby Philip » 04 Feb 2010 17:43

The shape of the sail could indicate another factor,speed.SSBNs do not require the speed of SSN/SSGNs.If one looks at the sail of the Akula series,one can see that it has been shaped hydronamically for high speed operations.The SSBN's key requirement is stealth and being undetectable.It is not going to be prowling the oceans hunting enemy subs but hiding from them at various parts of the underwater landscape which hydrographic survey ships would've-along with other sub missions,determined to be the best places for an SSBN to hide,given the range of the missiles carried and intended prime target nation (China).The Soviets preferred during the Cold War,locating their subs in their defensive Artic "bastions" in areas where the geographic ccontours of the land mass formed such bastions for their SSBNs.Extensive under-ice operations were part of operations with the sail being blunt and heavy strong enough to breakthrough thick ice cover for missile launch.The ATV's sail could therefore also derived from a typical SSBN sail from any of the Russian SSBN classes.Sandeep U's post immediately after the launch said that the sail reminded him of that of a Cold War SSBN.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby karan_mc » 24 Feb 2010 07:40

First nuke-sub undergoes trial


India’s first nuclear submarine, ‘INS Arihant’, has gone to the high-seas for an extended trial, indicating that the boomer is on course to be inducted by the Navy by 2011.


Made my day today

http://idrw.org/?p=626#more-626

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby jaladipc » 24 Feb 2010 08:33

‘INS Arihant’ with a 80 Mwe nuclear reactor at its core, was launched in the water in last July. The sea trial, which began a few months ago, will be carried out for more than a year in different conditions to test the endurance and performance of the nuclear submarine, which is capable of staying under water for months, sources told Deccan Herald

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/544 ... trial.html

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby Boudhayan » 24 Feb 2010 08:53

karan_mc wrote:
First nuke-sub undergoes trial


For obvious reasons Saraswat did not mention anything about the two other nuclear submarines, which DRDO is constructing at the moment.
The hull of the second boomer is under construction at an L&T facility in Gujarat. The Visakhapatnam shipyard was recently brought under the defence ministry to secretly carry out the construction activities.


Made my day today

http://idrw.org/?p=626#more-626



Gurus, from the above article, any idea whether the rest of the two boomers being constructed by DRDO are of SSBNs type or are they of the SSN/SSGNs types ? My guess would be that they are of the SSN/SSGNs types which would be present in the carrier strike groups that India is planning to have headed by the INS Vick and INS Vikrant (IAC). If yes, then what would Akula do ?

Any light on the above ?

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby Craig Alpert » 24 Feb 2010 09:03

jaladipc wrote:
‘INS Arihant’ with a 80 Mwe nuclear reactor at its core, was launched in the water in last July. The sea trial, which began a few months ago, will be carried out for more than a year in different conditions to test the endurance and performance of the nuclear submarine, which is capable of staying under water for months, sources told Deccan Herald

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/544 ... trial.html

80 MWe ~= 200 MWt!!! (I hope I'm correct!) so how many MW does it equal to?? and what's the Horsepower???

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby jaladipc » 24 Feb 2010 09:08

^^^

currently IN needs atleast 3 standard SSBN`s.

ATV is not going to stay in IN service.Its a mere TD( and a time being deterrence with a 700km nuclear capable missile onleee).And once the follow-on subs roll out, ATV will be used to conduct various trails of other SLBMs or cruise missiles,propulsion systems and stuff.
According to reports only 2 hulls S1 and S2 are identical.Which means the next 2 are supossedly larger ones with more launch tubes.

But ,even the sources are contradictory at times.GOI wants a min of 3 standard fit SSBN`s .Hence its pretty much logical that the follow-on boats will be for deterence.
Last edited by jaladipc on 24 Feb 2010 09:10, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby Singha » 24 Feb 2010 09:08

vaguely recall an article at launch time mentioning the 2nd and 3rd are larger. the 4th would be 1st in a line of dedicated SSN and hence smaller than 1-2-3.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby jaladipc » 24 Feb 2010 09:11

Singha wrote:vaguely recall an article at launch time mentioning the 2nd and 3rd are larger. the 4th would be 1st in a line of dedicated SSN and hence smaller than 1-2-3.


Thats correct.

But 2 hulls are already delivered.
And 3,4 are under construction.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby rakall » 24 Feb 2010 09:15

Singha wrote:vaguely recall an article at launch time mentioning the 2nd and 3rd are larger. the 4th would be 1st in a line of dedicated SSN and hence smaller than 1-2-3.



The 2nd & 3rd "sea going hulls" are larger --> the 3rd & 4th "constructed hulls" are larger..

Out of the first two hulls one is somewhere (may be BARC) undergoing land tests.. Second one is the ATV that was launched & has gone to swim with the sharks & dance with the dolphins

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby shiv » 24 Feb 2010 09:31

karan_mc wrote:
First nuke-sub undergoes trial


India’s first nuclear submarine, ‘INS Arihant’, has gone to the high-seas for an extended trial, indicating that the boomer is on course to be inducted by the Navy by 2011.


Made my day today

http://idrw.org/?p=626#more-626

There was a news item somewhere on this thread saying that Arihant was launched with no engine.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby karan_mc » 24 Feb 2010 09:39

@jaladipc ATV is not a TD it was cleared by Former admiral few days ago in a article , i think rakall is right there might be a land based ATV Hull which was used has a TD before actual work on ATV begun ,it is difficult to think that for 3 decades we didn't have a TD ATV it might be a land based one

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby Singha » 24 Feb 2010 09:49

btw werent there rumours of another hull (2nd) already within the SBC hall?

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby jaladipc » 24 Feb 2010 09:59

karan_mc wrote:@jaladipc ATV is not a TD it was cleared by Former admiral few days ago in a article , i think rakall is right there might be a land based ATV Hull which was used has a TD before actual work on ATV begun ,it is difficult to think that for 3 decades we didn't have a TD ATV it might be a land based one


The one at kalpakum is for training crew on reactor.while this ATV will be for demostrating technologies and temporary deterence.

A DRDO scientist once said,
Due to lack of a proper submarine and IN running low on subs, it is getting harder to test our missiles.Once follow-on subs were launched--ATV will be become a testing machine and for supportive deterence purpose(incase :O )

shiv wrote:There was a news item somewhere on this thread saying that Arihant was launched with no engine.


As we all know the standards of our DDM, they might have got confused with the reactor for not going critical at that time.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby Rahul M » 24 Feb 2010 11:38

shiv wrote:There was a news item somewhere on this thread saying that Arihant was launched with no engine.

only one such news item which was at variance with every other news report that claimed otherwise. DDM IMHO.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby vila » 24 Feb 2010 12:51

The other two hulls under construction are neither heavier nor bigger, similar design. If one wants to change/improve designs then one waits till the first one is commissioned to get feed back data. I think it should be 80MW Th, a submarine will need only a 3/4 MWe for its electrical needs.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby Anujan » 24 Feb 2010 13:11

Rahul M wrote:
shiv wrote:There was a news item somewhere on this thread saying that Arihant was launched with no engine.

only one such news item which was at variance with every other news report that claimed otherwise. DDM IMHO.


That was BS reporting. The Arihant was "inaugurated" without its reactor switched on, pending inspection of all piping ityadi. DDM translated it to "Arihant without engine"

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby rakall » 24 Feb 2010 14:10

shiv wrote:
There was a news item somewhere on this thread saying that Arihant was launched with no engine.


Apparently James Cameron has built only one half of Titanic set.. it mas mirrored to make it look like full in the movie..

Spielberg did the same with the Shark setup in Jaws..

Heavily inspired DRDO had constructed only the outer shell just enough to float on water.. and a submerged tugboat was used to tow it for launch ceremony.. There was nothing below the water line or inside the peripheral shape that was presented before media.. No engine.. no cabins.. no control room.. no galley.. nothing.. Just empty..

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby RKumar » 24 Feb 2010 14:50

shiv wrote:There was a news item somewhere on this thread saying that Arihant was launched with no engine.


I don't think it is DDM journalism ... but DDM, GoI, MoD, babu log conspire it deliberately to confuse and keep busy our friends. I give them their due credit :lol:

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby shiv » 24 Feb 2010 14:54

Rahul M wrote:
shiv wrote:There was a news item somewhere on this thread saying that Arihant was launched with no engine.

only one such news item which was at variance with every other news report that claimed otherwise. DDM IMHO.


I want to locate that news item and write a few friendly letters

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby Philip » 24 Feb 2010 16:58

Shiv,there were some derisive cretinous foreign reports,probably quoting Paki sources,that the ATV was launched without its reactor and would have to be "cut open" later...! Not worth responding to these "green" ignoram-asses.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby ankit-s » 24 Feb 2010 18:25

Craig Alpert wrote:80 MWe ~= 200 MWt!!! (I hope I'm correct!) so how many MW does it equal to?? and what's the Horsepower???



USS Seawolf: 52,000 hp (39 MW)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seawolf_class_submarine

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby shiv » 24 Feb 2010 21:21

Philip wrote:Shiv,there were some derisive cretinous foreign reports,probably quoting Paki sources,that the ATV was launched without its reactor and would have to be "cut open" later...! Not worth responding to these "green" ignoram-asses.


Well Philip I sometimes feel like telling such people "If you act like an asshole I can act like a bigger one" :twisted: :(( :mrgreen:

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby Gerard » 26 Feb 2010 05:55

India's nuclear sub doesn't have working reactor yet
-by K.S. Jayaraman


K.S. Jayaraman can be contacted at killugudi@hotmail.com

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby nachiket » 26 Feb 2010 06:01

Shiv, if you do send him an email, please post it here as well. And his response if it comes.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby Brando » 26 Feb 2010 07:08

The article that claims "India's nuclear submarine doesn't have a working reactor" and is "no more than a floating hull" seems to quote Defense Professionals Daily and an unnamed Indian defense scientist! The article claims that the reactor would have to achieve criticality on land and then tested rigorously before it can be put to sea.

http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/unc ... 31849.html

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby vila » 26 Feb 2010 17:25

The reactor on Arihant is not critical, but I dont think it will be bought on land again and tested. It will be commissioned in sea that's how it is done for all US nuke subs. A review committee okays everything and gives go ahead to make the reactor critical.


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