INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

negi · Post by **negi** » 16 Jul 2009 10:51

Yep nice development...waiting for the mithai ...btw Amit saar lets keep PM out of this his cabinet is busy arguing over Vijay diwas and whether it should be even be celebrated .

amit · Post by **amit** » 16 Jul 2009 11:11

negi wrote:...btw Amit saar lets keep PM out of this...

As you wish Negi ji. I do understand that some habits are hard to kick! No point in providing inducements...

pratik · Post by **pratik** » 16 Jul 2009 19:23

Whatever the name IN decides for ATV,
But For BRF jingos; SU-30MKI is a RAMBA, and ATV will be NAMITHA..

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 16 Jul 2009 19:35

not this thread, pratik, please !

pratik · Post by **pratik** » 16 Jul 2009 19:44

Sorry Rahul. Cant resist.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 18 Jul 2009 02:25

Arun saar, bhat 'bout answering my query ?

Sandipan · Post by **Sandipan** » 18 Jul 2009 03:16

You got to delete this post if possible and move it to Indian Naval Discussion if possible

rsingh · Post by **rsingh** » 18 Jul 2009 03:20

rsingh ji, for the moment, an IN sub operating on the other side of mallacca straits is nearly impossible. it will have to be the 4000/5000 km shots for us to be confident.

Rahul M I am not talking about "for the moment", its about future. That is why they need Nuksub. Potential range is unlimited.

The answer in the form of a rhetorical question is, 'If ANY Indian had even once seen "a Nuksub in action................ie destroying a city or target with long range missile?",'

But given that no such qualified Indian exist to meet your criteria, that did not disqualify the Indian strategic thinkers and Viswakarmas from developing Agni-2, 3, Shourya, Shakti-2 or even Shakti-1 (aka Chidambram vintage fizzle Thermonuclear BUM).
rsingh wrote:Arun sir how many times you have seen a Nuksub in action................ie destroying a city or target with long range missile? Never !!! It may be expensive toy..................but of huge stratigic importance.Imagine lone ATV waiting in yellow sea. You do not need 5000 km missile. Enemy has to know that Nuksub is there. It is a good start. It is like complaining about lack of broadband in village where....................which was connected to electricity yesterday.
The answer in the form of a rhetorical question is, 'If ANY Indian had even once seen "a Nuksub in action................ie destroying a city or target with long range missile?",'

But given that no such qualified Indian exist to meet your criteria, that did not disqualify the Indian strategic thinkers and Viswakarmas from developing Agni-2, 3, Shourya, Shakti-2 or even Shakti-1 (aka Chidambram vintage fizzle Thermonuclear BUM).

I do not understand this logic of established Gurus. No room for slightest criticism. " who are you to teach me bhan****" attitude. I am simply saying that you are demanding to much for starting. Nuksub have more deterrent value then real muscle. How many times US OR USSR launched long range missile to achieve tactic or strategic goals? Just the fact that nuksub and operate on its own for long time and cover long distances is enough for enemy to think twice. As Suraj mentioned, it is not bad for start. Nuksub can be silent,stay for long on its own and cover long distance..........that is the main factor. All other fancy thing (real teeth) may be added later. JMT and last post from me on this thread untill 26 July...........if I am allowed to post that is.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 18 Jul 2009 03:48

The analogy is simple
How many times have we seen nuclear weapons used after WW-2?

Chankiyan answer: Everyday. Nuclear weapons are used everyday, by those who possess them against those who don't, by those who possess the means to deliver them against those who can't respond back, by those who display their ability and intent to use them against those who don't.

mandrake · Post by **mandrake** » 18 Jul 2009 03:56

Sandipan wrote:You got to delete this post if possible and move it to Indian Naval Discussion if possible

Mods might as well move part of Indian Naval discussion thread related to ATV in its last few pages and merge it here, so that it can be preserved.

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 18 Jul 2009 04:11

self deleted.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 18 Jul 2009 04:13

we'll see !

that's because induction dates of those are still some way off. and a nuke sub has its own implications.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 18 Jul 2009 04:45

Some SLBMs have never left port.
The Chinese SSBN has never made a single deterrent patrol.

Venkarl · Post by **Venkarl** » 18 Jul 2009 05:30

Gerard wrote:Some SLBMs have never left port.
The Chinese SSBN has never made a single deterrent patrol.

With all due respects Sir..how do you know?

Baljeet · Post by **Baljeet** » 18 Jul 2009 06:34

Gerard wrote:Some SLBMs have never left port.
The Chinese SSBN has never made a single deterrent patrol.

I agree with Gerard on this one.

Venkral

chinese boomers are like ego booster shot, good for media, psy ops, and provides false sense of security to their higher than mountain, all weather beggar all lie. Yeah our products go through scrutiny like existence of mankind is dependent on that, it takes longer to get them operational. That is good the end result is our stuff is Damn Sweet cutting edge that is ready to taste blood.

Venkarl · Post by **Venkarl** » 18 Jul 2009 08:28

Thank you Baljeet...got confused between Jin and Xia....anyways wiki is not sure of Jin ssbn being deployed or not.
Gerard-- India be blessed if your assessment is 100% correct and if so please accept my apologies before I get bombarded more.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 19 Jul 2009 10:14

^^^
I hope they use himesh reshmaiya records to produce that masking noise !
might make the USN snoopers say "never again !"

aditp · Post by **aditp** » 19 Jul 2009 10:24

^^^^ "Jhalak dikhlaja" would be my personal favourite for the snooping USN

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 19 Jul 2009 17:00

Indeed. That's why they knew all about the Pokhran 2 nuclear tests beforehand.

AmitR · Post by **AmitR** » 19 Jul 2009 17:20

Gerard wrote:Indeed. That's why they knew all about the Pokhran 2 nuclear tests beforehand.

It was BJP's blast my friend not your Madam and MMS tamasha.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 19 Jul 2009 17:31

Fascinating bit of gyan. I was not aware that the BJP had a strategic nuclear wing that conducts underground nuclear tests. All those DAE, DRDO and Army folks must have been brought in later for the PR photos.

rakall · Post by **rakall** » 19 Jul 2009 17:46

Gerard wrote:Fascinating bit of gyan. I was not aware that the BJP had a strategic nuclear wing that conducts underground nuclear tests. All those DAE, DRDO and Army folks must have been brought in later for the PR photos.

You missed the sarcasm dude...

"The BJP's blast" is a pun-intended comment w.r.t cong MP Rashid Alvi's comments that Kargil was "BJP's war".. and that is why current UPA govt does not want to celebrate the 10th anniversary of vijay diwas..

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 19 Jul 2009 20:15

Gerard,The nuclear tests of 1998 were a surprise and the preparation details were known to very few apart from the scientists.But the nuclear submarine project has been an open secret for a long time now.If you know that something is out there it becomes easier to investigate.This was not the case as far as planning for nuclear tests is concerned.In fact if you remember Vajpayee govt ordered the tests immediately after taking over and within a couple of months the tests took place.So from planning to execution the tests were wrapped up in months unlike the nuclear sub project which took decades.

Secondly after the pokhran tests the American intelligence has renewed its focus on India and has actually strengthened its intelligence gathering case.Just search for rabinder singh.Some reports suggest even the PMO might be compromised.And I can safely say it is just the tip of the iceberg.So it might seem ironical but Americans and even other countries are focussing more on India as a result of successful nuclear tests.

Third this project also involved Russians as reports suggests.Any intelligence person will tell you that this is another leakage point for confidential information as these russians wouldn't be covered by indian counter intelligence.

What I am saying is that a project of this magnitude has a very big signature making it attractive target for espionage agencies.Considering the sad state of Indian Intelligence which also includes counter intelligence it wouldn't be surprising if other nations had access to our secrets including nuclear submarine.

Having said all this I am still very happy about this project.Cheers

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 Jul 2009 20:20

hopefully the KGB-nuova is on the case their end. they should be loathe to let any details of SSN leak out.

TOI has a small article today that two ultra secret "Red Cell" type units are being formed reporting directly to CCS [a] maritime intel chinese missile threat due to the failure of existing agencies like RAW and IB to gather timely and useful details of stuff like PRC missile fields in Delingha etc.

why make such news public. I believe psyops to let the chipanda know we
are wide awake...like the colony chowkidar who walks around at night tapping
his stick on the road and blowing his whistle...

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 19 Jul 2009 20:27

Singha wrote:hopefully the KGB-nuova is on the case their end. they should be loathe to let any details of SSN leak out.

TOI has a small article today that two ultra secret "Red Cell" type units are being formed reporting directly to CCS [a] maritime intel chinese missile threat due to the failure of existing agencies like RAW and IB to gather timely and useful details of stuff like PRC missile fields in Delingha etc.

why make such news public. I believe psyops to let the chipanda know we
are wide awake...like the colony chowkidar who walks around at night tapping
his stick on the road and blowing his whistle...

Singhaji, the Red cell type of effort is urgently required.Hope you are right.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 19 Jul 2009 23:24

Considering the sad state of Indian Intelligence which also includes counter intelligence

Pls enlighten on the bolded part please....

...

It's a very interesting statement above. The "sad state of intelligence" is generally taken as an absolute truth by many in India and on BR, which is alright. I'm sure nobody minds, particularly. However, you are specific... "which also includes counter intelligence"... which is suggestive.

Let me explain what I mean: if you had said "nuke subs made in india are crap", one could say general statement so, what can you do, we are like that onlee... But you are saying "the hull design is crap"... So one goes hmmmm...

Therefore please enlighten, unless you meant something else altogether and I'm reading too much into it.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 20 Jul 2009 02:07

Don;t let Johann see this - He has an explanation (spin) for this too.

derkonig · Post by **derkonig** » 20 Jul 2009 02:50

AoA piradhers,
do lafz in praise of the son of Rambilli....

"Rambilli's son comes of age,
He marries the Ocean's daughter, while Varun dev officiates,
As the son embarks on the Ashwamedh voyage,
From Toronto to Tokyo is heard an impotent rage,
Aren't they slumdogs, curry, call center & poverty?
Truth is the 6th horseman, is now Bharat the Maha-rathi."

k prasad · Post by **k prasad** » 20 Jul 2009 16:05

darshhan wrote:In fact if you remember Vajpayee govt ordered the tests immediately after taking over and within a couple of months the tests took place.

Not a couple... only 1 Month... Vajpayee was elected in 19th March '98, Pak fired Ghauri in April 10th... Pok2 was in May 11th... thats less than 2 MONTHS!!

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 20 Jul 2009 21:15

[layman armchair General cap]The Chinese IMHO will not use/risk naval assets against India in a conflict. Instead they will attack with their army and airforce plus LACMs etc. It will be up to IN to take the attack to the Chinese and distract their focus by chewing off their rear. Therefore IN needs to be better than PLAN [/layman armchair General cap]

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 20 Jul 2009 21:22

The Chinese realise that 80% of Indians - including us on BRF shiver at the thought of them. They will capitalize on that and try shck and awe attacks of massed missiles, massed artillery, massed men to make some quick gains and scare the crap out of India.

One of the ways we can start addressing that is to have a little self confidence in ourselves and the ability to say "Let them come - we will beat the crap out of them"

Unlikely to happen given our history of dismay at anything Indian and awe of anything Chinese.

Sorry OT

rakall · Post by **rakall** » 20 Jul 2009 21:52

shiv wrote:The Chinese realise that 80% of Indians - including us on BRF shiver at the thought of them. They will capitalize on that and try shck and awe attacks of massed missiles, massed artillery, massed men to make some quick gains and scare the crap out of India.

One of the ways we can start addressing that is to have a little self confidence in ourselves and the ability to say "Let them come - we will beat the crap out of them"

Unlikely to happen given our history of dismay at anything Indian and awe of anything Chinese.

Sorry OT

Or let Left form a govt with huge majority and let Prakash Karat become the PM..

they will make excellent roads in Arunachal Pradesh and invite the chinese to drive in.. No shock.. No awe..

That will be another season of Hindi-Chini bhai bhai.. or bye-bye

Willy · Post by **Willy** » 20 Jul 2009 21:53

The Chinese realise that 80% of Indians - including us on BRF shiver at the thought of them.

-------------------------------------------------------------

Speak for urself dude. The only indians "scared" of the chinese are the ones in government.Be it the UPA or the NDA. Wonder y.

sum · Post by **sum** » 20 Jul 2009 21:58

they will make excellent roads in Arunachal Pradesh and invite the chinese to drive in.. No shock.. No awe..

That will be another season of Hindi-Chini bhai bhai.. or bye-bye

Speak for urself dude. The only indians "scared" of the chinese are the ones in government.Be it the UPA or the NDA. Wonder y.

Sir, please stick around some more to understand the subtle posts of Dr. Shiv..

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 21 Jul 2009 00:44

JE Menon wrote:Considering the sad state of Indian Intelligence which also includes counter intelligence

Pls enlighten on the bolded part please.... ...

It's a very interesting statement above. The "sad state of intelligence" is generally taken as an absolute truth by many in India and on BR, which is alright. I'm sure nobody minds, particularly. However, you are specific... "which also includes counter intelligence"... which is suggestive.

Let me explain what I mean: if you had said "nuke subs made in india are crap", one could say general statement so, what can you do, we are like that onlee... But you are saying "the hull design is crap"... So one goes hmmmm...

Therefore please enlighten, unless you meant something else altogether and I'm reading too much into it.

JEMenon ji , The success of a country's counter intelligence is inversely proportional to ability of other countries to penetrate its security apparatus which includes strategic departments and agencies of the govt.In India the Counter Intelligence is the responsibility of Intelligence Bureau at national level and not RAW which is the common misconception.Apart from this states and other agencies are also supposed to have their own counter intelligence wings.

From whatever I have read it is my conclusion that Counter Intelligence efforts in India have been a failure till now especially when it comes to American,European and above all soviet union/russian agencies(especially KGB).The penetration at higher levels of govt. is much more problematic.Seriously have you seen anyone prosecuted for espionage among ministers or bureaucrats.There must have been some moles over there.

With regards to ISI there might have been some successes but you have to remember ISI runs its agents at lower levels also such as clerks,constables etc.Catching them is easier.

Even former RAW chief has admitted the inadequacy of our counter intelligence.

http://news.outlookindia.com/item.aspx?658522

Some other links detailing American,French and KGB efforts.

http://www.rediff.com/news/2004/jun/10spec2.htm
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w ... 567444.ece
http://www.indopia.in/India-usa-uk-news ... nal/1/20/1

VK Singh's book also has lot of details.

Also remember Counter Terrorism is not the same as Counter Intelligence.So you might hear how 100's of terrorist modules have been busted but it is not the same as counter intelligence.Counter intelligence is about preventing one's own intelligence and strategic agencies from penetrations.Yes both CT and CI may employ the same tactics but there are important differences.

In case you want to discuss some more we can do so at "Intelligence and national security threads".

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 21 Jul 2009 01:10

In India the Counter Intelligence is the responsibility of Intelligence Bureau at national level and not RAW which is the common misconception.Apart from this states and other agencies are also supposed to have their own counter intelligence wings.

are you sure ?
AFAIK R&AW has its own counter-intel wing and IB's mandate is primarily internal intelligence, not counter intel. of course on occasions the two fields are closely related.

sum · Post by **sum** » 21 Jul 2009 09:18

Rahul saar,
AFAIK, IB is mandated for counter-intel with RAW having a small team of its own for internal purpose only.

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 21 Jul 2009 11:37

Rahul M wrote:
In India the Counter Intelligence is the responsibility of Intelligence Bureau at national level and not RAW which is the common misconception.Apart from this states and other agencies are also supposed to have their own counter intelligence wings.
are you sure ?
AFAIK R&AW has its own counter-intel wing and IB's mandate is primarily internal intelligence, not counter intel. of course on occasions the two fields are closely related.

Rahul , I have stated the same.I have written that other agencies also have their own counter intelligence wings.That includes RAW,DIA,State police etc.

What I am saying is that IB is the lead counter intelligence agency which operates on Pan Indian level.Other agencies simply don't have that jurisdiction.For eg. RAW is geared towards external intelligence and as such it doesn't have the authority to conduct operations on Indian territory.It's counter intelligence wing is concerned about the penetration of RAW only.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 21 Jul 2009 11:41

Counter Intelligence is IB.

Yet, for their own singular requirements, many intelligence agencies have their own counter intelligence apparatus.

The Army has and so do the paramiltiary forces.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 21 Jul 2009 11:50

sorry I misunderstood.