PAF pilot's cock and bull sob story rubbished by IAF insider

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PAF pilot's cock and bull sob story rubbished by IAF insider

Postby shiv » 15 Aug 2011 09:58

Abhibhushan wrote:abhishek_sharma quoted
An officer and a gentleman


I have just received a view on the subject by mail from a group:

Death in Enemy Action

My father is a retired Indian Air force officer (Wing Commander). He knows first hand the true story of the death of the then Chief Minister of Gujarat Balwant Rai Mehta. My father, then Sqn Ldr BC Roy was the commanding officer of the only Air Force unit, which was a lone Radar unit at Bhuj during the Rann of Kutch operations, September 1965 India-Pakistan war.

After watching NDTV programme 46 years after the war (http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/the-bu ... ity/207609), rubbished the sequence and circumstance in which the Pakistan Air Force pilot Flying Officer Qais Hussein was compelled to shoot down the Beechcraft that was ferrying the then Chief Minister of Gujarat Balwant Rai Mehta along with his wife. It was being piloted by none other than ace retd Indian Air Force pilot Jehangir Engineer. This is what my father had to say:

1. Beechcraft takes off from Tata Chemicals, Mithapur. It was being piloted by former ace Indian Air Force officer pilot Jehangir Engineer and on board was the then serving Chief Minister of Gujarat Balwant Rai Mehta along with his wife and journalists, on 19th September 1965.

2. The movement of the Chief Minister was well publicised in newspapers, including advertisements. The Pakistan(is) knew of his movement all along.

3. Two Sabres from Pakistan chased the plane, twenty kilometers deep into Indian territory from international border and wanted to hijack this aircraft. They asked the plane to follow them to their airbase. The Pak Air Force knew all along that the Beechcraft was being flown by none other than the ace IAF pilot Jehangir Engineer, ferrying the then Gujarat Chief Minister and wife. Pakistan wanted to take them along as their prisoners which would certainly have been a great prize catch indeed.

4. While being escorted Jehangir Engineer, whose younger brother Group Captain Ronnie Engineer was then the Station Commander in Pune Airbase and another was Air Vice Marshal (famous Engineer brothers of IAF), could not let the Pak Air Force do this to them. He found a patch of land within Indian territory at Rann of Kutch. He ducked and wanted to force land the aircraft to save the Chief Minister from the two enemy Sabre jets.

5. The Sabres were totally merciless and pumped bullets, killing the pilot, the chief minister, his wife and other passengers on board, even though the pilot had waggled his wings, indicating it to be a civilian aircraft, thereby Pakistan Air Force violated an important international treaty, by shooting down a civilian aircraft killing unarmed innocent people including a lady.

Somik Ranjan Roy, Salt Lake, Kolkata



So now we are willing to call war criminals and cold blooded murderers as Gentlemen ! Jai Ho.

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Re: PAF pilot's cock and bull sob story rubbished by IAF ins

Postby ramana » 15 Aug 2011 10:03

I knew the Paki pilot was lying and giving a bs story.

My post on Aug 11th:

viewtopic.php?p=1145564#p1145564

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Re: PAF pilot's cock and bull sob story rubbished by IAF ins

Postby suryag » 15 Aug 2011 10:05

And moreover this is like slapping someone and saying sorry our DDM is the only media which will highlight the aplogoy and sweep udner the carpet the slap. The daughter of the pilot should have returned his apology back

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Re: PAF pilot's cock and bull sob story rubbished by IAF ins

Postby RajeshA » 15 Aug 2011 10:11

If the pilot was not the only person who died in that plane, a relative of one the deceased cannot pardon the culprit!

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Re: PAF pilot's cock and bull sob story rubbished by IAF ins

Postby chaanakya » 15 Aug 2011 10:28

We have a NEW PROVERB

its "Pig's tears"

Go rot in hell.

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Re: PAF pilot's cock and bull sob story rubbished by IAF ins

Postby Raja Bose » 15 Aug 2011 11:12

The Paki pilot was not giving a sob story - the damn bugger was gloating about how magnanimous his gesture was and not for one moment did he express any sorrow about what he has done. No sir, it was no sob story. Where are Vishnu and other folks when you need 'em to highlight the truth. Otherwise the wider uninformed Indian audience will truly think that what the Paki pilot said is what happened - ofcourse much egged on by Aman-Ki-Tamasha types who have their own blinkered agenda.

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Re: PAF pilot's cock and bull sob story rubbished by IAF ins

Postby Philip » 15 Aug 2011 11:57

This is most likely the truth.The Paki propaganda machine has deliberately timed this for Independence Day when Indians are reminded of Jinnah's deed-the Partition of India and all the mayhem and suffering that followed...even to this day through Paki wars and terror.I was not convinced that the Pakis,especially the Sandhurst tribe,would so casually ignore established international conventions,like the shooting down of a civilian aircraft.The motive was ulterior,the "apology" from the pilot-even if he does feel genuine remorse for his acting on "orders" ,has only opened the wound and rubbed salt into it,as the chicanery and devilry of the deed now stands fully exposed! I suggest that if the media does not publish the true facts,then BRites write to all the papers which have so zealously carried the "great apology" in their sheets and print the other side of the story,which is another fable of the '65 war just like the one about Sqd. Ldr. Alam and his hunting 5 Hunters!
Last edited by Philip on 15 Aug 2011 12:35, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: PAF pilot's cock and bull sob story rubbished by IAF ins

Postby Neela » 15 Aug 2011 12:22

I hope Vishnu from NDTV is reading this
It takes a few phone calls to Indian sources to verify the sequence of events.
Why not bring the Indian players on air and let them narrate the story?

I am sure Vishnu is going to be heckled about this if and when he comes to this forum again to promote his programmes ( which BTW are very good )

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Re: PAF pilot's cock and bull sob story rubbished by IAF ins

Postby Lalmohan » 15 Aug 2011 12:28

the PAF pilot does say that he was in position and waiting and then when checking with his control, he was ordered to shoot the beechcraft down. unfortunately, (right or wrong) he had to follow his orders. so there is a chain of decision making here which is complicit in this war crime - not just one individual

also, w.r.t W/C Engineer - he is described as an "ace" - was he a WW2 pilot with several kills? - perhaps Jagan can illuminate?

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Re: PAF pilot's cock and bull sob story rubbished by IAF ins

Postby nandakumar » 15 Aug 2011 13:15

There is one aspect of the episode that is intriguing. The plane which was on a scheduled trip to Mithapur taking off from Ahmedabad carrying the then Chief Minister of Gujarat, Mr Balwant Rai Mehta. It was to have later flown to Dwaraka where the CM was to inspect damages caused by aerial bombing by Pakistan. the plane did not reach Mithapur leave alone going further to keep its tryst with the residents of Dwaraka. Now, Mithapur is well inside the indian side of the international border between India and Pakistan. It is just marginally to the West of Ahmedabad but principally to the South of the capital city. The farthest point due West towards Pakistan is a town known as Kot Lakhpat that is 450 KMs away. Bhuj where india has an Air Force Station is nearer East about 400 Kms away from Mithapur. Could an aircraft of that nature and given the speeds that this aircraft would have possessed then must have spent a long time veering off course before it ended up being spotted by the Pakistani jets.
Incidentally, the Pakistani pilot owes an apology to the family of the Gujarat CM and a senior journalist of the Gujatrat Samachar for what happened that day.

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Re: PAF pilot's cock and bull sob story rubbished by IAF ins

Postby Altair » 15 Aug 2011 15:36

Next time an Atlantique or any aircraft enters our airspace,whether they wiggle the tail or do a 360 degree flip of the whole plane, We shoot the damn engine and let gravity take care of the rest.Oops! I forgot they dont have any more surveillance planes..My bad! :P

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Re: PAF pilot's cock and bull sob story rubbished by IAF ins

Postby Surya » 15 Aug 2011 17:39

This will be test for Vishnu and others - lets see whether they can correct this bullshit

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Re: PAF pilot's cock and bull sob story rubbished by IAF ins

Postby Vikas » 15 Aug 2011 18:07

Surprisingly CM of a state was killed by enemy plane and GoI has no version of the story. How man7 of us were even aware that TSP had killed CM of Gujarat in broad daylight and GoI did nothing. Have the pakis always been terrorist since 14th Aug 1947 ?

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Re: PAF pilot's cock and bull sob story rubbished by IAF ins

Postby subodh » 15 Aug 2011 18:13

I would think, a paki armed forces swine, retired or otherwise, is always going to be lying scumbag - why was this whole drama facilitated in the first place?

how is it that we are still surprised that this filthy person was/was not contrite, is/is not lying, etc? why do we engage with this scum at all?

so heartbreaking. when will we learn?

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Re: PAF pilot's cock and bull sob story rubbished by IAF ins

Postby nachiket » 15 Aug 2011 18:13

VikasRaina wrote:Surprisingly CM of a state was killed by enemy plane and GoI has no version of the story. How man7 of us were even aware that TSP had killed CM of Gujarat in broad daylight and GoI did nothing. Have the pakis always been terrorist since 14th Aug 1947 ?

This is what struck me when I first read the story too. A serving chief minister was killed by the pakis and the incident is hardly known.

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Re: PAF pilot's cock and bull sob story rubbished by IAF ins

Postby chetak » 15 Aug 2011 19:18

Lalmohan wrote:the PAF pilot does say that he was in position and waiting and then when checking with his control, he was ordered to shoot the beechcraft down. unfortunately, (right or wrong) he had to follow his orders. so there is a chain of decision making here which is complicit in this war crime - not just one individual

also, w.r.t W/C Engineer - he is described as an "ace" - was he a WW2 pilot with several kills? - perhaps Jagan can illuminate?



There were mostly ladies fulminating on the show with aunty burqa pitching the emotional

angle as always in such paki cases.

Got to hand it to the pakis who know just how to spin the situation for all it's worth.

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Re: PAF pilot's cock and bull sob story rubbished by IAF ins

Postby arun » 15 Aug 2011 19:23

X Posted from the TSP thread.

abhishek_sharma wrote:An officer and a gentleman: Ashok Malik

Qais Hussain’s touching letter of condolence is not without precedent. As is now well-known, Hussain, a former fighter pilot of the Pakistan Air Force, shot down an Indian civilian plane over the Rann of Kutch in 1965. He had believed it was on a spy mission. A half-century on, Hussain made contact with the family of Jahangir Engineer, the Indian pilot killed that day, and apologised. He also expressed his regrets to the family of Balwantrai Mehta, the then Gujarat chief minister and Engineer’s passenger. .......................

Wistful as these stories are, do they speak of Pakistan’s past more than its present? Both Hussain and Nasir belong to an old school of the Pakistani military. They were recruited in the 1950s or 1960s, before the Zia-ul Haq era, before young officers were taught to think of themselves as holy warriors in uniform.

The tragedy is not just that Jahangir Engineer and Arun Khetrapal are dead. It is that the gallant Qais Hussain and KM Nasir are probably part of a dying breed.


Amir Mir interviews Qais Hussain who insists that he “neither apologised nor expressed remorse” for shooting down a civilian aircraft.

It is well to remember that those living in Islamic Republic of Pakistan are well schooled in taqiyya:

PAF pilot says he did not apologise, only shared the grief

Former Pakistan Air Force (PAF) Flying Officer Qais Hussain, who fought for Pakistan in the 1965 war, has made it clear that while writing a condolence letter to the daughter of an Indian pilot whose plane he had downed 46 years ago, he neither apologised nor expressed remorse for his act which was carried in the line of duty.

In an exclusive interview with The News, Qais Hussain said he did not intend to apologise to the daughter of the Indian pilot and his only intention was to share the grief of her family members. “The Indian media has interpreted my goodwill gesture as an apology and repentance despite the fact that there is no such thing in my letter. I have clearly stated in my letter that I did not play foul and that I carried out my orders in the line of duty. I have further stated, ‘I feel sorry for you, your family and the other seven families who lost their dearest ones in September 1965’. It does not mean that I am apologising. It only means that I am trying to share their grief as a human being, which is their due.”………………………

The News

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Re: PAF pilot's cock and bull sob story rubbished by IAF ins

Postby ramana » 15 Aug 2011 19:27

viewtopic.php?p=1147421#p1147421

ramana wrote:Battle of Basantar incident in 1971 war and the shooting down of Beechcraft in 1965 war are different. The former is in a real battle and between soldiers. The Beechcraft shoot down was a military plane vs a civilan plane that appeared lost and was surrendering by the Paki pilot's own account. So to shoot it down is cowardly act by the Paki pilot Hussain and cannot be equated to the Battle of Basantar.

Also note the tone of humilty of the Paki Brig in recounting the Battle of Basantar vs the triumphalism in the Paki pilot Hussain's account of the Beechcraft shootdown. A world of difference. The Paki pilot's account is more like a ghazi slaughtering his surrendered victims. This is same as long line of infamous murderers from that region including those who killed Daniel Pearl.
Only thing missing is whether he screamed AOA while firing.

Ashok Malik has lost his moral compass when he equates the two.
There I said it again.

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Re: PAF pilot's cock and bull sob story rubbished by IAF ins

Postby JE Menon » 15 Aug 2011 19:41

yup, the NDTV piece exposed the Pak officer for what he was - a slimeball trying to score PR points. Amazing that the women in the programme didn't call him out when he said he was not feeling guilt or anything like that but wanted only to give some relief to the dependents of the victims. Typical of the Paks to do this around independence day. Let's see what NDTV does as a follow up. Most probably nothing. But the fault is ours too, the ladies on the programme should have not minced words.

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Re: PAF pilot's cock and bull sob story rubbished by IAF ins

Postby ramana » 15 Aug 2011 19:43

When mard become na-mard, what are the ladies supposed to do? Take up cudgels?

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Re: PAF pilot's cock and bull sob story rubbished by IAF ins

Postby ramana » 15 Aug 2011 19:47

My old post in TSP thread:
viewtopic.php?p=1144711#p1144711

X-Post....
ramana wrote:Virupaksha,

viewtopic.php?p=1143642#p1143642

He notes the Beechcraft pilot waggled his wings in surrender yet he shot is down under orders.
Just a murderer seeking solace for his act.

I have no sympathy for him. He could have escorted the plane to a forced landing.

Also shows the early jihadi turn of the fizzle ya shown later by their senior officers.



To which some people replied that he was only follwoing orders.

I say tell it to the Nuremberg judges who ruled the Nazis were equally responsible for following Hitler's orders.

I have no sympathy for that murderer:
- There were no hostilties at that time
- The Beechcraft a cvilian aircraft appeared lost and was trying to get back to Indian side of border
- The Beechcraft pilot wagged his intention to surrender
Yet the pilot shot him down. His guilty feeling is what haunted him all these years.

Same rascals murdered Sqd Ldr Ahuja after he was shot down in Kargil.

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Re: PAF pilot's cock and bull sob story rubbished by IAF ins

Postby chetak » 15 Aug 2011 19:48

ramana wrote:http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?p=1147421#p1147421

ramana wrote:Battle of Basantar incident in 1971 war and the shooting down of Beechcraft in 1965 war are different. The former is in a real battle and between soldiers. The Beechcraft shoot down was a military plane vs a civilan plane that appeared lost and was surrendering by the Paki pilot's own account. So to shoot it down is cowardly act by the Paki pilot Hussain and cannot be equated to the Battle of Basantar.

Also note the tone of humilty of the Paki Brig in recounting the Battle of Basantar vs the triumphalism in the Paki pilot Hussain's account of the Beechcraft shootdown. A world of difference. The Paki pilot's account is more like a ghazi slaughtering his surrendered victims. This is same as long line of infamous murderers from that region including those who killed Daniel Pearl.
Only thing missing is whether he screamed AOA while firing.

Ashok Malik has lost his moral compass when he equates the two.
There I said it again.





Quote:
mailto: malikashok@gmail.com -- Subject= Neither an officer nor a gentleman


Send the blighter a mail.

I did. :)

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Re: PAF pilot's cock and bull sob story rubbished by IAF ins

Postby shiv » 15 Aug 2011 19:51

ramana wrote:Battle of Basantar incident in 1971 war and the shooting down of Beechcraft in 1965 war are different. The former is in a real battle and between soldiers. The Beechcraft shoot down was a military plane vs a civilan plane that appeared lost and was surrendering by the Paki pilot's own account. So to shoot it down is cowardly act by the Paki pilot Hussain and cannot be equated to the Battle of Basantar.

Also note the tone of humilty of the Paki Brig in recounting the Battle of Basantar vs the triumphalism in the Paki pilot Hussain's account of the Beechcraft shootdown. A world of difference. The Paki pilot's account is more like a ghazi slaughtering his surrendered victims. This is same as long line of infamous murderers from that region including those who killed Daniel Pearl.
Only thing missing is whether he screamed AOA while firing.

Ashok Malik has lost his moral compass when he equates the two.
There I said it again.


Perfectly valid statement. The attitude in 1965 is on record. An excerpt from Nosey Haider's book which I reviewed

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/index ... cle&id=812
Interestingly Haider describes the Islamic ritual he prescribed as morale booster for his pilots before the Pathankot raid. He asked for a bucket of cologne in water to be brought in and towels dipped in it for the pilots to rub themselves before the attack so that in case any of them were killed they would be smelling good for the “houris and angels” who would receive them at the gates of heaven.

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Re: PAF pilot's cock and bull sob story rubbished by IAF ins

Postby ramana » 15 Aug 2011 19:53

So Fizzlya was a ghazi force before the Pak Army became on with Zia Ul Haq's Islamization Drive.

No makes sense that Mohd Atta's room mate in Germany was PAF pilot. Most likely his controller for ISI.

---Side note

Is cologne water halal? Shouldnt it be attar onlee? So those FizzleYa pilots didnt get the 72 raisins afterall.

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Re: PAF pilot's cock and bull sob story rubbished by IAF ins

Postby negi » 15 Aug 2011 19:57

Had this been been a case of Hunter/Mig-21 crossing over into the enemy fly zone PAF's story would have held some credibility but this was a civillian AC; going by the lahori logic of 'I was following oerders onlee' one can shoot down any friggin PIA flight and claim I was following order onlee. This was not an AC sporting IAF roundels so 'following orders' BS does not apply. The problem is not with PAF showing their true colours problem is with numb nuts on this side who get their chaddis in a twist over such issues and give it a sentimental overtone.

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Re: PAF pilot's cock and bull sob story rubbished by IAF ins

Postby JE Menon » 15 Aug 2011 20:02

Ramana,

They could have cut him up verbally. I watched the show. The guy was not remorseful at all... Just pr bull for Barkha and Pakisatan.

What is more worrying is the possibility that they felt that was enough...

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Re: PAF pilot's cock and bull sob story rubbished by IAF ins

Postby Gus » 15 Aug 2011 20:02

RajeshA wrote:If the pilot was not the only person who died in that plane, a relative of one the deceased cannot pardon the culprit!


The pig did clarify that he was surprised that his letter was reported as a an apology. So there is no question of accepting something that was not even offered to begin with.

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Re: PAF pilot's cock and bull sob story rubbished by IAF ins

Postby negi » 15 Aug 2011 20:04

JEM it's sanctioned by the GoI aka Aman ki Asha.

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Re: PAF pilot's cock and bull sob story rubbished by IAF ins

Postby Sri » 15 Aug 2011 20:08

^^^ Rather in Burkha interview he took pains to explain he was not apologising ....Why did he write the letter then? And Indian ladies dignified as they were, let him know indirectly it is what is expected of pakistanis...

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Re: PAF pilot's cock and bull sob story rubbished by IAF ins

Postby negi » 15 Aug 2011 20:13

And I see you guys still watch/follow NDTV. :evil:

Fool me once shame on you; fool me twice shame on me.

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Re: PAF pilot's cock and bull sob story rubbished by IAF ins

Postby Lalmohan » 15 Aug 2011 20:45

its because we indics wanted to believe that there was some shred of humanity being showered in our direction, that our love was being reciprocated. we desperately wanted it to be true - so in our minds we made 2+2=468

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Re: PAF pilot's cock and bull sob story rubbished by IAF ins

Postby JE Menon » 15 Aug 2011 20:55

Negi, we need to watch to see the shit that goes on and identify the oiseaules. It's a dirty job, but so long as we are not converted to the crap they spew (most of the time), it is a necessity

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Re: PAF pilot's cock and bull sob story rubbished by IAF ins

Postby Chandragupta » 15 Aug 2011 20:56

“Your father spotted my presence immediately and he started climbing and waggling his wings seeking mercy. How the SDRE pilot got shit scared of the airborne Ghazi and started shivering in fear begging for mercy Instead of firing at him at first sight, I relayed to my controller that I had intercepted an eight-seat transport aircraft How the Ghazi had the big heart not to shoot down the shivering SDRE at the first chance and instead gave him a few last breaths(guessing by the four side windows) and wanted further instructions to deal with it,” Hussain wrote in his email.


It is not an apology, it is quite simply rubbing salt into the open wounds. BRites who have sources in the media should push for this to be reported for what it is - gloating over a war crime.

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Re: PAF pilot's cock and bull sob story rubbished by IAF ins

Postby subodh » 15 Aug 2011 20:58

re Ramana

"Also note the tone of humilty of the Paki Brig in recounting the Battle of Basantar vs the triumphalism in the Paki pilot Hussain's account of the Beechcraft shootdown. A world of difference."

How do we know this army scum is not lying? Humility? sure, so he could tell the father, 'hey - your son fought well, but the true gazhi's sword still felled him'

Why bring it up at all? Khetrapal Sr already knew his son died a hero - meeting this sweet talking jihadi to hear him say, i killed your boy - what does that achieve?

Why do we give any semblance of dignity and humanity to these jihadi swine and their actions and motives? Of course, some are more vile than the others, but that is still trying to differentiate between various types of tUrds floating in a sewer tank...

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Re: PAF pilot's cock and bull sob story rubbished by IAF ins

Postby ramana » 15 Aug 2011 21:05

Giving benefit of doubt.

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Re: PAF pilot's cock and bull sob story rubbished by IAF ins

Postby subodh » 15 Aug 2011 21:07

ramana wrote:Giving benefit of doubt.



To these inbred jihadi scumbags?

ok.

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Re: PAF pilot's cock and bull sob story rubbished by IAF ins

Postby ramana » 15 Aug 2011 21:16

Are you on a rampage? So far haven't seen one good post on the subject. Why dont you write your views before going after others? And dont know your point of view as you have too few posts.

The Paki pilot is the scumbag and you want to direct your anger at me who is the first one to call it as it is?

Time for you to think about it.

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Re: PAF pilot's cock and bull sob story rubbished by IAF ins

Postby anupmisra » 15 Aug 2011 21:22

ramana wrote:I knew the Paki pilot was lying and giving a b s story.


That scum paki pilot mixed a few facts with a mostly fiction to create this drama of remorse after all these years. Why now? Now that Indian legal and military experts know the paki version as well, and that the pilot cannot deny it, they should take the matter up under the Geneva Convention.

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Re: PAF pilot's cock and bull sob story rubbished by IAF ins

Postby anupmisra » 15 Aug 2011 21:23

chaanakya wrote:Go rot in hell.


The pakis are living it on a daily basis.

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Re: PAF pilot's cock and bull sob story rubbished by IAF ins

Postby Jarita » 15 Aug 2011 21:34

Good timing post beheading of Indian soldiers


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