Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

James B
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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby James B » 23 Dec 2008 06:10

vsudhir wrote:


Why is Bengaluru being pointedly ignored? Is it that the chennai NSG can provide them adequate cover or what?


Delhi for North
Calcutta for East
Mumbai for West
Hyderabad for Central and
Chennai for South.

I think it is fair enough.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby Muppalla » 23 Dec 2008 08:11

SIMI man could be the local link between IM, LeT

NAGPUR: In a development that could help connect the dots between terror attacks across the country, including the LeT-led November 26 siege of Mumbai, Maharashtra's anti-terrorist squad is questioning Amir Talha, a SIMI activist from Azamgarh, who was in close touch with the Indian Mujahideen that executed serial blasts in Delhi in September.

Cops say they have evidence to connect Talha, who was employed with a Hyderabad IT firm, to earlier terror attacks in Delhi, Ahmedabad and Jaipur for which responsibility was claimed by the Indian Mujahideen.

If Talha is found to have connections with the Lashkar-e-Taiba, it will cement India's case about the outfit's links with IM as well as bring out for the first time the local connect of the 10 sea-borne terrorists who attacked Mumbai.

It was a quick, well-planned operation that helped ATS net Talha, son of an Azamgarh cleric and suspected activist of the banned Students Islamic Movement of India, on Saturday.

The 22-year-old had boarded the Patna-Secunderabad Express for Hyderabad when he was arrested on platform No 3 at Nagpur station where he had got off for a bite.

The ATS team boarded the train, which was running eight hours late, at Betul in Madhya Pradesh. First, the ATS spotted another man on berth no. 12 in AC-3 B-1 coach, the seat alloted to Talha. The sleuths then started scanning all coaches. Although Talha was being tailed from Varanasi, he had managed to hoodwink the ATS by moving to another coach.

"The compartments were cramped, with passengers sleeping in the aisles," said an officer who was a part of the operation.

"The ATS team finally spotted Talha in S-10. He was surrounded by 'friends'. We kept him under watch and nabbed him when he got off at Nagpur. Initially, he denied his identity," said a senior officer. Talha, who was produced before a Nagpur court, has been remanded in police custody until January 3. A .32mm pistol (inscribed ENGALA D982610) and five bullets were recovered from him.

Cops said Talha had a VIP quota ticket which he had obtained with a recommendation from BSP MP from Shahbad, Iliyas Azmi. Talha is the son of Amir Rashidi Madni and Rizwana Aamir. Rashidi, who heads an ulema council in Azamgarh, is also believed to have been held in connection with SIMI activities in the past. Talha's 16-year-old brother, too, is under police scanner for alleged links to terror outfits.

According to ATS, Talha was in contact with Mirza Shadab Baig, one of the two terrorists who escaped from the Batla house encounter in Delhi in September. Talha reportedly shared his rented room with Baig at Fahad Apartment in Zakir Nagar, Delhi.

Baig later shifted to Batla house where IM mastermind Atiq, alias Bashir, and Mohammed Sajid were killed in an encounter with Delhi Police. Atiq and Talha called each other just before the September Delhi blasts. Soon after Atiq was killed, Talha deleted the call details from his mobile phone.

Talha, whose deeper connections with the Indian Mujahideen are still being probed, worked with an IT major in Hyderabad, but mostly remained away from work for different reasons. After seeking leave for his "exams" from July 17 to 21 this year, Talha kept extending his leave during different festivals. Both Bangalore (July 25) and Ahmedabad (July 26) blasts had taken place when Talha was on leave. On October 31, Talha had approached an orthopaedic clinic in Azamgarh for a medical certificate as he planned to be away from work for 45 days.

Talha had a passport issued on March 4, 2008, from Delhi. The passport (no 97392112) was valid till March 3, 2018. ``The question is why did an Azamgarh resident get a passport issued from Delhi? How Talha managed to procure the passport and what documents did he furnish, too, remain to be seen,'' said an ATS officer.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby Mayura » 23 Dec 2008 08:45

No, TOI had reported that 1 NSG hub will be setup in Bengaluru. Currently locating the site.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby Singha » 23 Dec 2008 09:14

the eastern hub should be in GAU because the maoist/islamist friendly WB Govt is not under much threat. kolkata is kept quiet as a place to infiltrate from BD, medical care, and R&R spot.

afair, there has never been a significant terrorist attack on CCU right?

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby Eshwar » 23 Dec 2008 09:52

All the cities chosen are in UPA/Congress ruled states.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby Raj Malhotra » 23 Dec 2008 12:58

Security upgrade? 90% of budget yet to be spent

New Delhi: Behind the glaring images of police and security personnel armed with outdated weapons and equipped with hardly any preventive gear is an inexplicable reality of unused finances surrendered each year by the Home Ministry.

Of the Rs 715.25 crore marked for the police under plan expenditure this year—that would largely include fresh purchases likes weapons and equipment—police organisations under the Home Ministry have only spent Rs 76.9 crore until November, a mere 10.7 per cent.

The elite National Security Guards, for instance, has just spent over Rs 4 crore of about Rs 15 core that was set aside for capital expenditure in its budget. Last year, of about Rs 9 crore meant for machinery and equipment, the NSG returned over Rs 3 crore. This was the reason it gave: “non-finalisation” of procurement process for bullet-proof jackets, holographic reflex sights and some other hi-tech communication equipment.

Similarly, the Intelligence Bureau was allocated about Rs 50 crore for capital expenditure this year. Till November, it had spent only Rs 9.8 crore.

The worst, incidentally, is the National Technical Research Organisation, the apex technical intelligence body set up on the recommendation of the Kargil Review Committee. It has Rs 2,420 crore marked for capital expenditure this year, which includes massive technological upgrade and construction of a new building. Until November, it had spent just about Rs 195 crore. Last year too, NTRO got Rs 1,850 crore, of which it surrendered Rs 1,414 crore saying it could not finalise purchase of communication equipment.

In the context of coastal security that has come under focus after the Mumbai attacks, a little over Rs 130 crore was allocated in 2007-08 for capital expenditure under three specific schemes — Coastal Security Scheme (CSS), Joint Coastal Patrolling under Operation Swan in Maharashtra and Gujarat, and scheme for hi-tech surveillance on international borders. Of this, Rs 69.9 crore was surrendered or could not be spent.

As for hi-tech surveillance, the MHA said the money was not spent because of delay in “tendering process”. In all, under capital expenditures last year, the Home Ministry surrendered about Rs 1,788 crore of some Rs 4,611 crore allocated for this purpose.

The BSF said it could not procure fast attack crafts because Goa Shipyard Ltd could not provide a proper “cost break-up” and other related documents.

• The CRPF said it could not finalise purchase of over 18,000 AK-47s and 10,000 assault rifles due to “non-materialisation of supplies” from the Ordnance Factory Board.

• Delhi Police had set aside Rs 20 crore for “induction of latest technology” into the force, but surrendered the entire amount citing “non-finalisation of proposals”.

• The CISF returned Rs 195 crore meant for X-Ray baggage inspection system because a certificate from the Atomic Energy Regulatory Board was not submitted.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby Philip » 23 Dec 2008 18:00

FBI completes investigation,says more paki agencies involved other than ISI>Pak army under suspicion too.

http://www.dailypioneer.com/145518/FBI- ... -role.html

FBI completes probe in Mumbai attack; indicates Pak role

PTI | New Delhi

Less than a month after the unprecedented terror strikes in Mumbai, US' FBI has completed its probe in India and found evidence of a Pakistan security establishment being involved in the carnage and its team was likely to go there to prepare a chargesheet against the guilty.

As the FBI winds up the probe that commenced on December one, the top US Intelligence official John Michael McConnell, who heads the Director of National Intelligence, air dashed to the national capital and held series of meetings with the FBI team probing the case.

The FBI is understood to have found evidence about the role of a Pakistani security establishment other than the ISI being involved in the November 26 terror strikes in Mumbai that left over 180 people dead including six American nationals, official sources said.

While the name of the Pakistan establishment involved in the attack was not clear immediately, the sources did not rule out the possibility of active and direct involvement of its Army.

The sources said McConnell has passed on the findings of FBI team to the officials in the Government and the US probe agency would now be giving final touches to chargesheet in which it would be naming the accused persons.

The FBI had registered a case in the Mumbai terror strikes as according to the US laws, the agency had to file a chargesheet in case of a death or torture of any American national outside the Country.

The top US official also held series of meetings with Union Home Minister P Chidambaram and senior officials including National Security Advisor M K Narayanan and discussed issues relating to evidence gathered so far in the probe in the 26/11 terror strikes, the sources said.

Director of National Intelligence (DNI) is considered to be the most powerful intelligence official of the US Government under direct command and control of the US President and reports to him only.

The role of the DNI is to effectively integrate foreign, military and domestic intelligence in defence of the homeland and of the US' interests abroad from its 16 spy agencies. It came into existence after the audacious 9/11 attacks in the US.

The FBI officials, before completing the probe, had questioned Kasab, the lone Lashker-e-Taiba militant involved in November 26 terror strikes, for over nine hours recently to ascertain about his role and handlers in Pakistan.

During the questioning session, the FBI sleuths asked the arrested Lashkar terrorist minor details about his native places, including the lanes and by-lanes of the area. Kasab hails from Ukkad area of Faridkot district in Pakistan.

The FBI had also taken the DNA samples of the nine Lashkar terrorists killed in Mumbai to ascertain whether it matched with anyone in their data bank or has any relations with persons killed during operations of Allied Forces in Afghanistan.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby Rahul M » 23 Dec 2008 18:05

Singha wrote:the eastern hub should be in GAU because the maoist/islamist friendly WB Govt is not under much threat. kolkata is kept quiet as a place to infiltrate from BD, medical care, and R&R spot.

afair, there has never been a significant terrorist attack on CCU right?

exactly, leaving NE out of the net is another stupid decision.

what is CCU btw ?

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby milindc » 23 Dec 2008 18:51

Rahul M wrote:
Singha wrote:the eastern hub should be in GAU because the maoist/islamist friendly WB Govt is not under much threat. kolkata is kept quiet as a place to infiltrate from BD, medical care, and R&R spot.

afair, there has never been a significant terrorist attack on CCU right?

exactly, leaving NE out of the net is another stupid decision.

what is CCU btw ?

I assume it is Kolkotta airport.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby Rahul M » 23 Dec 2008 18:55

it's kolkata not kolkotta and the airport is Netaji Subhash Chandra Bose International Airport, so I'm not sure what CCU is.

edit : thanks krishnan.

was passing in front of the amir khan consulate recently, the same one that saw a terrorist shoot-out in the past.
it had two armed jawans inside a sandbag bunker armed with INSAS/SLR (can't tell, the guns were kept lying by the side of the jawans and I couldn't see them properly) and wearing BPJs. from the bulges on it, which looked like plain kevlar ones without metal plates.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby krishnan » 23 Dec 2008 18:56

kolkata airport = CCU = Netaji Subhash Chandra Bose International Airport

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby tripathi » 23 Dec 2008 19:13

BFrites enjoy Amresh Misra's mullah theory of 26/11 on Geo tv.He is ready to fight civil war along with miss roy in india........."agar hindutvadi grah yudh chahate hain to to hum ladenge".......well typical paki copyrighted dialogue plagarised by indian historian thinker of caliber of Great Amreh misra.
http://www.friendskorner.com/forum/f160/crises-cell-19th-december-2008-a-83652/

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby Vikram_S » 23 Dec 2008 19:57

he should join SAJA

leftist views like his will be surely welcome there

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby Nandan D » 23 Dec 2008 20:43

This idea of the NSG hub, seems like a knee jerk reaction.
On who's recommendation is this being done? (besides the obvious need to placate the public)

Is it possible for the NSG commandos in the hubs to keep the same level of training that they get at their home base? It seems very unlikely to me, though not impossible.

RAW (or some other intelligence agency) had instead recommended that the NSG have a dedicated plane, so that they can be immediately airlifted to the city where they are needed. This assesment had been done a while back, and was ignored by the GOI.
Obviously this agency has looked into the issue, and suggested the airplane idea not the hubs in different cities.

Why then this new idea?

Its seems like a good idea in theory, but might not work out in practice.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby aditya » 23 Dec 2008 21:24

Everything in India seems to be knee-jerk, ad hoc and half-baked.

When the terrorists struck, there was no standard operating procedure in place. As a result, the first forces on the scene were a mishmash of Mumbai police + Navy commandos + army commandos + CRPF/RAF. They had no clue how to proceed, causing an American security expert to state that they didn't seem to be trained "as well as" Western forces because they didn't respond with the same level of aggression. He got it partly right, but the problem is NOT the training of the various forces. The problem seems to be that there is no security response framework.

In such a situation, the only forces who should have been present are those that are trained to deal with these situations. The forces who turn up should be armed not only with weapons but also with the mandate and authorizations to proceed automatically UNLESS specifically instructed otherwise.

In this case, it appears the army and Navy were called simply because there were bases nearby. In the normal course of things, they had no business being there. One can hardly blame them or the Rapid Action Force for the "lack of aggression" since dealing with such sensitive situations is simply not part of their job!

It is ludicrous that the transport issue for the NSG wasn't dealt with earlier. This is like investing in 20 brand new computers with the latest processors but keeping a lousy internet connection.

Now there is talk of distrubuted NSG hubs across the country. But there is also talk of the "Maharashtra Security Guards" and the "Waste Bengal Security Guards". If one has the "MSG" and "WBSG", why does one need the NSG distributed across the country? In fact, why does one need the NSG at all? Has any Babu thought these things through?

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby Rahul M » 23 Dec 2008 21:34

there were no army commandos in mumbai ops.
But there is also talk of the "Maharashtra Security Guards" and the "Waste Bengal Security Guards".

what is 'waste bengal' (sic) ? if we as Indians can't spell our provinces' name correctly what right do we have to question outsiders when they misinterpret us ?

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby Lalmohan » 23 Dec 2008 21:36

aditya wrote:When the terrorists struck, there was no standard operating procedure in place.


are you sure? Mumbai police commanders seemed to be following a plan in terms of response if you read the various articles

As a result, the first forces on the scene were a mishmash of Mumbai police + Navy commandos + army commandos + CRPF/RAF.


are you sure? The situation was being handled by the Mumbai police - they escalated up the command chain, NSG was alterted and Marcos being nearest were brought in to contain the terrorists until NSG could arrive. Regular army, RAF and others arrived later - you saw them arrive on the TV news - they were securing the perimeter of the hotel. No plan?

They had no clue how to proceed,


really? It seems that apart from letting the satyameva jayate media wallahs in too close, the rest of the operations in the hotels and the post CST chase down of the two terrorists was being handled methodically

causing an American security expert to state that they didn't seem to be trained "as well as" Western forces

well, what can i say, everyime these things happens - gora loge tell us how they are so much better, what to do? We are shivering in our dhotis onlee. If you read the reports from other security professionals (London and Sydney come to mind) none said that their cities would have been able to cope with this terrorist strike scenario.

In such a situation, the only forces who should have been present are those that are trained to deal with these situations.

mmm... like the Marcos and NSG for example?

The forces who turn up should be armed not only with weapons but also with the mandate and authorizations to proceed automatically UNLESS specifically instructed not to do so.


and you know they didn't do this because...?

In this case, it appears the army and Navy were called simply because there were bases nearby. In the normal course of things, they had no business being there.


mmm... who would you call? Ghostbusters?

It is ludicrous that the transport issue for the NSG wasn't dealt with earlier.

now there you do have a point

Now there is talk of distrubuted NSG hubs across the country. But there is also talk of the "Maharashtra Security Guards" and the "Waste Bengal Security Guards". If one has the "MSG" and "WBSG", why does one need the NSG distributed across the country? In fact, why does one need the NSG at all?


because in a country the size of India (like the US) - having a city based SWAT capability is not a bad thing - and can do the job (as per interview with gora security loge) of fixing the terrorists in place quickly and holding fort until the dedicated unit gets there.

as for "Waste Bengal" - I prefer to think of "Waist Bengal" and Bips in particular, I'll assume its a typo on your part.


Has any Babu thought these things through?

have you?

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby Vikram_S » 23 Dec 2008 21:41

Is it possible for the NSG commandos in the hubs to keep the same level of training that they get at their home base? It seems very unlikely to me, though not impossible.


each of these "hubs" will be full fledged NSG base

The initial aim was to raise a force on the lines of the German GSG-9, but given India's size and population it was realized that a force structure that could cater to India specific requirements was necessary. In fact, it was thought prudent to have three different regional units for local action, rather than have a central force that could be transported to the trouble spots as and when required. This never happened and the NSG remained a Delhi-centric organization.


this is on BR itself

the idea is correct because given indias size it is impossible for NSG to respond even with proper transport within first 30 mins - 1 hr of some incident like this happening

so the only option are to beef up local security forces with more training and proper firearms to respond fast enough till NSG are available

and aditya, take all comments by US, this that expert, print it out and use it for toilet paper

these "experts" would have shitted in their pants if what happened in mumbai happen in their own country
Last edited by Vikram_S on 23 Dec 2008 21:46, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby ramana » 23 Dec 2008 21:43

There is a need for SWAT teams at State level and national level. The state level teams are to deal with local terrorist situation. However due to TSP's preference to use terrorists to attack Indian sites, there is a need for the NSG. The transport situation in New Delhi will never change in our and our childrens' lifetime. Therefore NSG will get stuck. The other issue is the lipstick Home Minster wanted to travel to Mumbai withthe NSG that also caused the delay which no one is talking about. That means the NSG in Delhi is a non-starter for it will be subject o political whims of dandies. Most likely the SPG will remain in the Delhi to portect those who need protection.

So its better to disperse the NSG's SAG in key areas. Hyderabad will be the next target for it has the perfect milieu- Congress govt to enure no action by police to hinder the terrorists, Old City to provide grievance for Teesta Setelvad type rabble-rousers. And a corrupt police dept which sends constables without guns to apprehend known terrorists (SIMI) and says only SI's are issued guns!

Chennai needs its NSG or else LTTE might do its thing as Sri Lanka heats up.

B'luru better raise their own pronto. A company of 100 is needed as a core group. Six teams of 12 men each.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby Singha » 23 Dec 2008 21:43

because they didn't respond with the same level of aggression

:rotfl: as in the khan bahadur's swat?

please read up a little bit before coming here to vent. for instance
in columbine, two squads of swat officers took a considerable amt
of time to even enter the school let alone do a search of the premises because someone told them in passing there were "snipers on the roof" and "multiple armed people" roaming around inside (what did they expect -a old lady with a croquet mallet?).

meantime , people lay bleeding inside while the swat boys "supported each other" and crept around outside in broad daylight.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby Vikram_S » 23 Dec 2008 21:45

aditya wrote:As a result, the first forces on the scene were a mishmash of Mumbai police + Navy commandos + army commandos + CRPF/RAF.


no that is not correct

first responder were mumbai police who engaged terrorist both at taj and other places
then MARCOS came in once requested with army doing perimeter security
and they handled till NSG came in @ 3 am

after that
NSG + marcos --->clearing op
army--> next cordon
ATS (mumbai police)+ paramiltary --> outer area

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby Vikram_S » 23 Dec 2008 21:49

Singha wrote:because they didn't respond with the same level of aggression

:rotfl: as in the khan bahadur's swat?

please read up a little bit before coming here to vent. for instance
in columbine, two squads of swat officers took a considerable amt
of time to even enter the school let alone do a search of the premises because someone told them in passing there were "snipers on the roof" and "multiple armed people" roaming around inside (what did they expect -a old lady with a croquet mallet?).

meantime , people lay bleeding inside while the swat boys "supported each other" and crept around outside in broad daylight.


people are used to john rambo movies where american hero goes in with machine gun

about aggression in Mumbai ops

one nsg havildar was hit with grenade, did not stop and shot the terrorist in the face
he did not stop even then and went back into fight
his interview on TV showed stapled pants and face surgery

marcos went into taj without any intell and rushed into fire
if that is not aggression then i am thinking what else is

mumbai police which is also corrupt and take bribes also captured terrorist bare handed and one inspector got killed
and they beat up the other guy with lathis -- when he had ak-47

from now on, i have new respect for police
despite every wrong and mistakes they also do
-------------

i laugh at comments about aggression from goras and armchair people
who on forum would have done like these people do

indian security forces are most hardened thanks to constant combat situations

our politicians are in total other way and 100% POS
without SPG cover they will discover public needs

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby RajaJi » 23 Dec 2008 21:58

Here's a nice video of the mumbai terrorist on youtube.


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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby Vikram_S » 23 Dec 2008 22:42

Singha wrote:because they didn't respond with the same level of aggression

:rotfl: as in the khan bahadur's swat?

please read up a little bit before coming here to vent. for instance
in columbine, two squads of swat officers took a considerable amt
of time to even enter the school let alone do a search of the premises because someone told them in passing there were "snipers on the roof" and "multiple armed people" roaming around inside (what did they expect -a old lady with a croquet mallet?).

meantime , people lay bleeding inside while the swat boys "supported each other" and crept around outside in broad daylight.


i just read on wiki about columbine
what pathetic response
both attacker killed own selves

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby shaardula » 23 Dec 2008 23:07

Ok. Here is what bothers me about Roy, Mishra et al,.
By all reasonable and sensible accounts, it is now known that the carnage at Mumbai was planned and sourced out of TSP. All this is known post event, and based on considerable analysis and collation.
But even in the heat of the moment, there was absolutely no mention of the Indian muslim. There was a time when Indian Hindus were suspected, but Indian muslims never came under suspicion.
My grouse is that, when the rest of us are all focusing with increasing clarity on Pakistan, why are people like Roy, Mishra, Antulay et al., trying blur focus and obfuscate by unnecessarily raking up a Hindu-Muslim angle to this? This particular issue is all about Pakistan and has nothing to do with issues in India.
In any case, who is to be looked up to handle any and all Hindu-Muslim issues? Indians, who took up their ganga-jamni heritage seriously and actually live it in real time or the Pakistanis, who shunned ganga-jamni completely, and live in a make believe arabized wahabi wet dream? We are the original inheritors of the composite past. Not they. We are the people who retained means and methods of co-existence. Not the Pakistanis.
To borrow a phrase, without invoking authority, kaha mughalon ki shaan, kaha pakistanion ki gustaaki.

PS: like AM, i for one am really glad that all the hot heads were given their own sand box to shit in. But beyond the sand box of land mass, there is a bigger sand box of an indic idea, and we are more than enthusiastic to be privileged to play in it.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby shaardula » 23 Dec 2008 23:23

i presently cant recall the exact dates, but there once was a lone gunman holding up a strip(as in linear) motel in the US and the much revered SWAT took > 24 hours to clear that lone gunman up.

In another incident around the 90s. There was bank heist by two gunmen with armor piercing rounds on automatic weapons in Southern California, and the entire op had to be manned by local police. SWAT was late to arrive and was not involved in any significant ops. All and any action was by californian pandus wielding equivalent of .303 to off the shelf automatic weapons in the hands of gunmen in body armour.

i mean, i am the kind of SDRE who is worried sick about the hand held heavy steel axe in house, and even i know better than to second guess the cops.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby shaardula » 23 Dec 2008 23:28

if in reponse to "treatment" of minorities in India, pakistanis & bangladeshis can have so much rage, how much rage should indians have about the treatment of indic people, including the ahmediyyas, in pakistan and bangladesh?

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby Pranay » 23 Dec 2008 23:30

Eshwar wrote:All the cities chosen are in UPA/Congress ruled states.



As i see it... all the cities are in India.

Need to do away with slicing & dicing Indians depending upon the political parties in office in each state.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby SaiK » 23 Dec 2008 23:46

as long as NSG can reach the destination in less than 30-45 minutes, it should be ok. i guess, the future is more towards distributed security setup.. hence state govts local units should take up NSG commando training to hold up till the NSG unit arrives. Its mandatory, that all cops go thru NSG training, and minimum hours per month/year.

nice going there pondicherry.. they train their cops in commando fighting, but unfortunate they have to do the traffic management as well.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby Anujan » 23 Dec 2008 23:55

shaardula wrote:Ok. Here is what bothers me about Roy, Mishra et al,.

shaardula-saar,
Ignore A'roy.

In my dealings with educated people, I have learnt quite a bit of piskology. A'roy suffers from multiple diseases of the kind that most pseudo-intellectuals suffer from.

1. A conviction that she is good at something, because she has tasted success in a totally different field. Usually this is worsened if your success was due to a stroke of luck or solely due to you connections. Let us assume that you wrote a book. Let us furthermore assume that it became a huge success even though you never thought that it would, nor did you spend much time or effort writing it. Most people will thank their stars. A very minuscule minority would think that it must be because they are so brilliant that a half hearted effort has resulted in roaring success. So it must be the case that they are much better than aam-aadmi in say, astrophysics because you see, they are born brilliant.

2. A desire for fame.

The result of 1 & 2 above is a conscious conviction that their intellectual superiority means that they see things the way aam-aadmi does not, and hence should hold contrarian views. A subconscious desire to hold such contrarian views because it results in fame.

You cannot win a logical argument with such people because they have no sense of shame and hold a firm conviction about their intellectual superiority.

You cannot convince them about blindingly obvious truth, because then, they will have to share the intellectual tent with the rest of the smelly aam-aadmis.

You cannot shut them up because they thrive in the limelight.

You can, however ignore them and dismiss them into irrelevance.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby satya » 24 Dec 2008 00:17

Why not go for two tier NSG type specialist commando force that has SAG at its core & a SRG type force /QRTs from local PDs . In any terror attack , QRTs can be rushed in to block & pinpoint the terrorist's location & let the SAG team come & finish the job . And we don't need these new 20 commando schools , more or less all major indian cities have same nightmarish urban infrastructure so there's no reason to train them separately for broadly same type of problem , why not train them at common single school that can also serve as a single center for continous upgradation in tactics based on inputs on actual ground situation faced by these QRTs & a periodic upgrade training program can be done regularly so all these QRTs remain in touch with new developments whether in tactics or in-use technology. And this single school can also have joint exercises of QRT & SAG teams for better coordination , so much can be learnt at a single place of excellence . And this waste of money that will be done in creation of 20 schools can actually do wonders if used for single school of excellence.
Problem is India has too much 'manpower' that quantity always wins over quality .

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby Nandan D » 24 Dec 2008 00:42

SaiK wrote:as long as NSG can reach the destination in less than 30-45 minutes, it should be ok. i guess, the future is more towards distributed security setup.. hence state govts local units should take up NSG commando training to hold up till the NSG unit arrives. Its mandatory, that all cops go thru NSG training, and minimum hours per month/year.

nice going there pondicherry.. they train their cops in commando fighting, but unfortunate they have to do the traffic management as well.


Its a lofty goal, but I think that we have to start with small steps.

Forget commando training, the average cop in Mumbai probably discharges his weapons once a decade or so.
I am not exaggerating. While i was in India, there was a Mid Day article that talked about that..

Bombay has only 3firing ranges. 2 of them are closed because of lack of ammo.

One of the armed cops in the Taj , had a gun, but only a single bullet!!!

I watched at least two instances, on live TV around Nariman house, where the cops gun jammed (it was an INSAS) and the two cops just had trouble clearing it. Would have made for some pretty funny TV, if not for the seriousness of the situation.

So before we start making commandos out of them, first we have to make them cops.

Short Term:
(1) Start providing at least once a month firing practice to cops. At least once a freaking year :evil:
(2) Procure better bullet proof vests
(3) Then procure INSAS/AK-47s
(4) Give the NSG a goddamned plane.. At least till the hubs are formed.
(5) Have better emergency response procedures in place (for e.g. make sure that your top3 cops are not all travelling in the same car) :( Being in Bombay at the time, and following the news, the death of the 3 top cops, was the single biggest psychological blow, more than the burning of the Taj. For the first time, in Mumbai, I was worried.
(6) The emergency procedures need to extend to the press, as well as to politicians. Deshmukh made a statement on live TV (around 3 hours after the attack) where he said something to the effect that "The police have no control over what's going on, so i've called the NSG". He should have left the first part out. That is not what the average citizenry needs to hear.
(7) Allow certain (larger?) private security firms to have automatic weapons. Give the Taj and Oberoi a real chance to defend themselves. It doesn't matter how brave you are. You bring a lathi to a gun fight, chances are real good that you will end up dead.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby Nandan D » 24 Dec 2008 00:49

Other ideas
(8) Identify possible targets. Create the building plans for these places and make them available to be used by cops/commandos.
(9) All important targets, should have CLEAR, WELL MARKED exits, so people can withdraw in case of trouble.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby Anujan » 24 Dec 2008 00:53

shaardula wrote:Ok. Here is what bothers me about Roy, Mishra et al,.


Brilliantly eloquent article in Outlook titled "An Open Letter To Arundhati Roy". The writer needs personal warm accolades from Rakshaks. Read it in full, I am posting snippets.

Abhinav Kumar is a serving IPS officer. Though these are his personal views, he hopes that they also reflect the anguish of an entire fraternity of proud Indians in uniform


I had no idea that you held a brief for all those who never felt anything at all not just for India in particular, but who also actively profess violent rage at the shared values of the entire human race.

The creation of a hated outsider, in the case of Kashmir, the Indian; in the case of Raj Thackeray, the bhaiya of UP and Bihar; and in the case of the jihadists, anyone and everyone who does not subscribe to their virulent strain of Islam, including Muslims, is common to all these ideologies but you seem to pick and choose the bigotries you will demonize and the bigotries you will defend.

In your world view, the wrongs of Indian security forces of the last twenty years, and the failures of Indian state craft before it, are sufficient justifications for Kashmiri grievances, just as the wrongs of Babri Masjid, the Mumbai riots of 1993, the Gujarat riots of 2002, will justify Islamist terror against India.

By this logic, the Crucifixion of Christ amply justifies the Holocaust. We non white societies must all be allowed eternal rights to slaughter the Europeans for the sins of colonialism and slavery. Islam itself had a long history of violent conquest and forcible conversions, perhaps that should justify an eternal crusade or dharmyudhh against Islam? The Greeks and Romans have their own scores to settle with the Christian Church. The Latin Americans have their own grievances with Spain and Portugal.

Seen this way, human history is merely a parody of the eternal theme of perpetrators and victims, and all present violence, no matter how barbaric or senseless, can be justified with reference to some past grievance....The only thing is that after this bloody book-keeping, there may not be anyone left to enjoy the fruits of such a 'just' society.

Even the most rabid of the Hindutva forces do not see the world united under the saffron flag by force of arms, as is the Islamist project of one world under the Green Crescent, or the Naxal project of one world under the Red Star.

One could indeed forgive you, Ma'am, if you were purely an artist. ... But in your avatar as a public intellectual, you cannot abandon your commitment to the demands of truth, accuracy and the ability to discriminate between the varieties of human experience and action. The liberties you have exercised in the past and continue to do today, however gratuitously and offensively, do not exist in a vacuum. I am not sure if any of these liberties would have a place in a Naxalite Utopia or a Jihadi Caliphate or even in a self-determined Kashmiri paradise that you eloquently espoused.
To call the foreign funded insurgency in Kashmir and the terror attacks across the country as justified blowback for the failures of the Indian state and civil society is both false and callous. It implies a failure of the imagination and the intellect and the complete abdication of moral responsibility by you.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby HariC » 24 Dec 2008 01:10

thanks lakshmic

everyone should give their feedback at this link

http://www.outlookindia.com/feedback.as ... ndhati+Roy

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby Vikram_S » 24 Dec 2008 01:56

pranay wrote:As i see it... all the cities are in India.

Need to do away with slicing & dicing Indians depending upon the political parties in office in each state.


good words

but can you tell the center this

right now bangalore is the most vulnerable city after mumbai

chennai at least has command force
bangalore has nothing

and hitting bangalore gets more jihad points than hitting chennai thanks to IT tag
see hamid gul claims

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby archan » 24 Dec 2008 02:12

Vikram_S wrote:
pranay wrote:As i see it... all the cities are in India.

Need to do away with slicing & dicing Indians depending upon the political parties in office in each state.


good words

but can you tell the center this

right now bangalore is the most vulnerable city after mumbai

chennai at least has command force
bangalore has nothing

and hitting bangalore gets more jihad points than hitting chennai thanks to IT tag
see hamid gul claims

Can you kindly not type as if you are sending an SMS message or writing poetry? It makes it hard to follow. Thanks.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby Vikram_S » 24 Dec 2008 02:59

what i am saying is that if this report is true, the centre has sunk to new level.
chennai has a commando force, bangalore has nothing. but is it sheer coincidence about karunanidhi and chidambaram effect?

but bangalores problem is it has a bjp govt so we can understand what center thinks of the state. after all, over the new life issue, "warnings" were given to the state.

when people talk of "unity" and this is the level of dirty politics played, what is the point. the utterly shameless mms gave antulay a clean chit also, mark one more example of how clean MMS is and not a politician (which some were telling us on forum).

the nation respects center because at the center it is assumed all factors are equal, this govt is not able to protect its people and it does not appear it also wants to.

when hamid gul and other jihad actors are openly fixating on bangalore, this is the reaction. there is no mention of specific measure taken on this problem as well.

does the idiot center understand how many defence establishment are at bangalore and how much indian R&D is tied to one city apart from the IT factor.

it is not that people of chennai dont deserve NSG, but it is clearly partisan politic from UPA which will be disguised as land problem or some BS post attempt to make sure that dirt does not come out.


http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Indi ... 876011.cms
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Chen ... 842575.cms

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby Arun_S » 24 Dec 2008 03:05

Mumbai attack: US backs Indian proof of Pak hand
23 Dec 2008, 0123 hrs IST, TNN

NEW DELHI: The US has endorsed the evidence gathered by Indian agencies about the complicity of Pakistan's state actors in the terrorist attack on Mumbai, in what can result in stepped up international pressure on the Zardari regime to take action against the mentors of Lashkar-e-Taiba.

Top US intelligence official John Michel McConell is learnt to have expressed complete satisfaction with the strength of India's case against Pakistan, based on FBI's examination of call records of satellite and cellular phones used by Mumbai attackers and their Pakistan-based handlers.

McConell confirmed that one of the numbers logged on the satellite phone the terrorists used while navigating their way to Mumbai belonged to known Lashkar terrorist Abu Al Qama. Indian intelligence officials are familiar with the satellite phone that Qama uses. The US, using its leverage with Sharjah where Thuraya is headquartered, corroborated this fact, and also the fact that Qama was passing instructions to the attackers from Pakistani soil.

India's case about the Pakistan hand has also been borne out by the data the Americans retrieved, using their superior technology, from the damaged mobile phones used by terrorists while they were carrying out the massacres in Taj and Trident hotels. The phones had got severely damaged in the fire that broke out during the gunfight.

"We are committed to get to the bottom of this case," US officials are learnt to have told their Indian counterparts during their interaction spread over 48 hours.

The Americans are planning to confront the Pakistanis, still in denial mode, with the evidence that their own investigation has thrown up. Sources said the UK has also passed on electronic intercepts, described by a senior source as "one clinching piece of evidence", to India.

McConell, along with FBI officials who have been camping in India in connection with the probe into 26/11, has held meetings with home minister P Chidambaram, national security advisor M K Narayanan and senior Indian intelligence officials.

Indian experience with the US intelligence agencies has so far not been satisfactory, with the latter winking at evidence against Pakistan because of its dependence on Islamabad for success in Afghanistan. Indian agencies, however, feel that the response could be different this time because of the fact that Mumbai casualties included US nationals.

The FBI is mandated to take the probe to the logical culmination, which will include charging the names of Lashkar leaders and their collaborators in ISI that come up in the probe.

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Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Postby SaiK » 24 Dec 2008 03:39

India yet to share info on attacks: Interpol
Islamabad, PTI:

India has not yet authorised its investigators to share information regarding the Mumbai terror attacks with the Interpol, the chief of the Paris-based global police agency said here on Tuesday.

“To date India’s government has not authorised India’s police agencies to enter any data relating to the recent terrorist attacks in Mumbai in Interpol’s databases,” Interpol Secretary General Ronald K Noble told reporters.
“No information has been shared. We are hopeful that it will happen very quickly,” he said after a meeting with Pakistan’s Interior Ministry chief Rehman Malik. An Interpol incident response team had been deployed in India to gather evidence and information to be shared with police databases around the world. Interpol has so far gleaned information only from the media, Noble said.

“Interpol’s instant Response Team was deployed to India several days ago with the goal of gathering evidence and information which the Interpol could put in police databases that will be acceptable to Pakistan and all other countries around the world,” he said. “So far no names have been provided by Indian police and India’s law enforcement authority or the government of India to Interpol to enter in its databases for Pakistan or any other countries to determine whether or not they have information or link to those individuals,” Noble said.

He said Interpol had not received any information that would allow him to comment on the accuracy of media reports about the nationality and identity of the attackers.


ddm reporting from i slam a bad!?


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