Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

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niran
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby niran » 19 Jun 2021 22:15

VinodTK wrote:From: India Today
By: Sandeep Unnithan

The gun battle inside South Block
Over the

ATAGS has 25 lit. chambers translate into greater recoil force so stronger thus heavier gun. can ATHOS match ATAGS range? no. BTW why are we debating? the one who pays says no means no.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby basant » 20 Jun 2021 00:10

niran wrote:ATAGS has 25 lit. chambers translate into greater recoil force so stronger thus heavier gun. can ATHOS match ATAGS range? no. BTW why are we debating? the one who pays says no means no.

Because the one who pays is the tax payer. And unless there are very specific reasons, like deserts can't withstand the weight or the guns can't negotiate the Himalayan terrains, it is outrageous to import. And some reports do suggest that it is not the case, and the indigenous system is good enough.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby kit » 20 Jun 2021 00:52

looks the the "emergency" necessity requirement can very well stymie any indigenous development.


https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/defence/story/20210628-the-gun-battle-inside-south-block-1816231-2021-06-18

Earlier this year, as a nine-month standoff with China eased off in eastern Ladakh, the army revived the gun import proposal, citing an “urgent operational necessity” on the northern borders to justify the import of 20 regiments (each regiment has 20 guns). Adding to the army’s urgency is the fact that deliveries of the ‘Dhanush’, an indigenously-built version of the Swedish FH-77B Bofors gun, have slowed down. Once the DG (acquisitions) clears the proposal, it can be sent to the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) for the final approval.

By the way this clause can get around the "negative import list" ?

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 20 Jun 2021 08:43

It is amazing that emergency purchase order is only thought off in case of imported equipment. Never in case of domestic items.

ATAGS will never receive emergency orders. Nor will any domestic 155 mm candidate. But no one will think twice before emergency purchase from foreign private companies.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 20 Jun 2021 13:38

It is clear some group wants to have comfortable retired life abroad based on commissions. the lobby has deep roots.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby shaun » 20 Jun 2021 15:09

What caught my attention in the news above is "But the ATHOS has problems of its own—it is not in service even in the Israeli army and had suffered structural failure during trials in India some years ago." What structural failures,??.. I did Google but no results throwing..

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Prem Kumar » 20 Jun 2021 15:46

Delaying induction of indigenous systems --> leading to precipitating a crisis during the India-China standoff --> then using that very crisis to beg for imports while continuing to cold-shoulder homegrown products, very well fits into the "should be tried for treason" category.

If Sandeep's report is accurate, then its the MoD that's following Modi's Atmanirbhar diktat and its the DG Artillery (just like the DGMF) that seems to have the hand in the honey-pot.

Successive Army Chiefs trot out the "we will fight with what we have" line, without fixing the rot inside their organization.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby arvin » 20 Jun 2021 21:28

With OFB becoming a corporate, strikes by union are on the horizon. This puts Danush at risk and 114 order might be effected.
This could be used as a excuse to push in ATHOS.
Like ATAGS, Danush's production should be 100% privatized if delivery is seen to be compromised.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby sanjayc » 20 Jun 2021 21:45

Better sell the design of Dhanush to Bharat Forge, L&T, etc. -- divide the order between OFB and two other private companies. The private companies will be free to export too. That will bring India on the world stage in artillery. Sell some pieces to Vietnam, Philippines, etc. Since Independence, Indians have been experts at putting shackles on their own feet and punch way below potential, much to the relief of Pakis, Chinese and Whites

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 21 Jun 2021 02:31

basant wrote:
niran wrote:ATAGS has 25 lit. chambers translate into greater recoil force so stronger thus heavier gun. can ATHOS match ATAGS range? no. BTW why are we debating? the one who pays says no means no.

Because the one who pays is the tax payer. And unless there are very specific reasons, like deserts can't withstand the weight or the guns can't negotiate the Himalayan terrains, it is outrageous to import. And some reports do suggest that it is not the case, and the indigenous system is good enough.


Pay attention to this bold and underlined part.

He is saying the same thing.

In India, it's sarkar that pays. Yes, they collect revenues of which taxes are part.
Sarkar cant afford imports for money is needed elsewhere.
And will be sorted out.
The trials were fixed to fail obviously.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 21 Jun 2021 02:37

basant posted a link above
Army currently lock horns with china in Eastern Laddakh, and to our utter surprise, it has very limited number of 155mm artillery guns.

No need for surprise. it was deliberate sabotage by Army artillery and Procurement cats to cause imports. The problem with self-sabotage is its India that is always in jeopardy because of thieving crooks.
When they do the sabotage they think time is plenty, but it tempts the opponents to strike while India is weakened.
repeateldy this is the case.
After knowing how important 155mm guns are for mountain warfare as shown in Kargil, they wasted 20 years in bokwas trials and games to import.
Whose father's money is that they think that will line their pockets and their harami families?

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby srai » 21 Jun 2021 10:21

^^^

Urgent import is just an excuse for poor planning or corruption.

For mountain warfare, IA got its ULH M777. They only ordered 145 and no follow-on orders for BAE - Mahindra Defence Systems Limited.

Then for plains/tracked, IA got its K-9. They only ordered 100 and no follow-on orders for Hanwha Systems - L&T.

Local option in OFB Dhanush induction is in progress. 5500 rounds were fired in trials before IA gave its approval. Out of 400 required, only 114 units were ordered.

Another induction in progress OFB Sharang (130mm guns to 155mm). 300 on order.

ATAGS is in indefinite trials mode. When that will complete to IA’s satisfaction is anyone’s guess. To be produced by Bharat Forge and Tata Power SED.

Not to forget, no movement still on Bharat Forge 155mm offerings even though Israeli ATHOS and BF 155 share the same linage back to GC/GHN-45.
Last edited by srai on 21 Jun 2021 10:26, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Vivek K » 21 Jun 2021 10:25

ramana wrote:basant posted a link above
Army currently lock horns with china in Eastern Laddakh, and to our utter surprise, it has very limited number of 155mm artillery guns.

No need for surprise. it was deliberate sabotage by Army artillery and Procurement cats to cause imports. The problem with self-sabotage is its India that is always in jeopardy because of thieving crooks.
When they do the sabotage they think time is plenty, but it tempts the opponents to strike while India is weakened.
repeateldy this is the case.
After knowing how important 155mm guns are for mountain warfare as shown in Kargil, they wasted 20 years in bokwas trials and games to import.
Whose father's money is that they think that will line their pockets and their harami families?

Army procurcement group should be court martialed for treason and sabotaging National Security.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Rsatchi » 21 Jun 2021 12:22

ramana wrote:basant posted a link above
Army currently lock horns with china in Eastern Laddakh, and to our utter surprise, it has very limited number of 155mm artillery guns.

Whose father's money is that they think that will line their pockets and their harami families?

Ramanaji
By and large the mid level officers and to a fair extent three star and above are very very good.
But the rot sets in once the interaction with the Politicians and Baboos start
And that probably wont happen until you are in a position to make significant decisions.
The ADC/Adjutant who climbs the 'totem pole' behind him follows the same dharma when in position,
The procurement process/trials process of the defence is quite opaque and nebulous with no accountability vis-à-vis targets set/met etc.
PM's and RM's will come and PM's and RM's will go but the 'Malai Express' will carry on forever!! :lol: :lol:

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby kit » 21 Jun 2021 12:37

Should the OFBs be headed or managed by ex army people? .. would this be a conflict of interest

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby jamwal » 21 Jun 2021 13:02

:lol: You can't sell even pickle to army without giving a cut to the unit commander and here people are acting surprised that purchase of arms worth 1000s of crores is being internally sabotaged to favour imports.

This blaming of only senior officers and giving a clean chit to lower ranks is just another sad coping mechanism. For many years and perhaps even now, diesel and petrol from army stores formed the bulk of such supplies in Laddakhi civilian market. Even ITBP and BSF stores are regularly pilfered for sale to outside markets in few border places I have been to. Majority of Indians are highly corrupt hypocrites and the rot is at top, middle and bottom. Armed forces are no exception.
Last edited by jamwal on 21 Jun 2021 13:07, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Prem Kumar » 21 Jun 2021 13:05

^^ If this is true, then the only way to clean the rot is to make exceptional-examples of a few top-honchos. Make it so severe that it sends a chill down the command chain. Don't go after the small fry.

If the equivalents of the Mallyas & the Choksis are court-martialled, then the system will cleanse itself.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 21 Jun 2021 13:36

Prem Kumar wrote:^^ If this is true, then the only way to clean the rot is to make exceptional-examples of a few top-honchos. Make it so severe that it sends a chill down the command chain. Don't go after the small fry.

If the equivalents of the Mallyas & the Choksis are court-martialled, then the system will cleanse itself.


No it wont.

You are always going to have this issue.

The only solution to this is a political consensus that no more imports of defense equipment from whichever date the politicians can agree on. As long as you have the ability to get exceptional items imported you will have issues.

The second issue is corruption in purchase of domestic supplies. I think that we can live with it. As it will help in sustaining a domestic MIC.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 21 Jun 2021 14:23

Prem Kumar wrote:^^ If this is true, then the only way to clean the rot is to make exceptional-examples of a few top-honchos. Make it so severe that it sends a chill down the command chain. Don't go after the small fry.

If the equivalents of the Mallyas & the Choksis are court-martialled, then the system will cleanse itself.


Unpractical solution -We would need mass executions including inviting children of influential people abroad, not soo easy. Its not like an order is given and evil will sucumb.

Practical solutions is to keep working and filling the military, babus with people loyal to India rather foreign countries. It takes time to build an ecosystem and wipe out the old ecosystem.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby darshhan » 21 Jun 2021 18:42

Rsatchi wrote:But the rot sets in once the interaction with the Politicians and Baboos start


I agree with this only partially. Lot of officers are corrupt even where politicians and bureaucrats are not involved. And they are present at all levels. It is not that corruption is a switch that is automatically switched on when coming in contact with a neta or babu.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby mody » 21 Jun 2021 18:53

The guns are just being fired and tested to the point of failure. Dhanush guns have already fired more than 5,500 rounds. That is between 6 guns at the most. Just read the tests conducted with the ATAGS for the high altitude trails. This years High-Alt trails in Sikkim are the second such trails by the way. Any any other changes are made in ATAGS after the current summer trials, then another set of summer and winter trails will be asked for.

Even veterans like Lt. Gen Shankar running down the ATAGS program is sad. He has consistently claimed that ATAGS has a long way to go and is not ready. Wonder why. He was involved with the guided Pinaka program and the Dhanush program and always all praise for both of these programs. Has consistently batted for more Pinaka regiments to be inducted. But with regards to the ATAGS, has always maintained that the choice of the 25 Ltr chamber is a mistake and gun will take much longer to mature.

The latest 17th June article by Mannu Pubby in ET also mentions unnamed expert sources stating that the choice of 25Ltr chamber for ATAGS is a mistake why is DRDO trying to re-invent the wheel. All the western guns have a 23Ltr chamber and that's what DRDO should have stuck with.

IA seems to have buried their heads in the sand. Truly a sad situation.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby srai » 21 Jun 2021 19:18

^^^
Lest people forget, Western 23ltr chamber guns didn’t meet IA requirements even after unprecedented 4 rounds of trials participated by world’s top artillery manufacturers spanning more than a decade.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 22 Jun 2021 00:36

darshhan wrote:
Rsatchi wrote:But the rot sets in once the interaction with the Politicians and Baboos start


I agree with this only partially. Lot of officers are corrupt even where politicians and bureaucrats are not involved. And they are present at all levels. It is not that corruption is a switch that is automatically switched on when coming in contact with a neta or babu.



Even NCC breakfast after morning parade used to be a scam. Contractor would supply below average broken cream rolls. He would give take all the way to the NCC sub area office.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby kit » 22 Jun 2021 00:46

So the go around the negative imports list is to order token amounts and wait till a threat perception comes up and then use emergency purchase options to buy whatever they want. Nice.
Now if that is not treasonous i don't know what is

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby sankum » 22 Jun 2021 00:49

It will be so for it is punishment free. I know of several cases 25-30 years back from inside sources but have kept quiet and remain so in future. Will leave it at that.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 22 Jun 2021 00:51

Well the political remedy is to win 2024. And short term is UP 2022.
Very soon expect proposal to lease Athos guns.
The first to suggest should be shot.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby sankum » 22 Jun 2021 00:55

It just leaves a pain in my heart for several good men who have sacrificed their lives in the line of duty.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby hnair » 22 Jun 2021 01:45

mody wrote:Even veterans like Lt. Gen Shankar running down the ATAGS program is sad. He has consistently claimed that ATAGS has a long way to go and is not ready. Wonder why.


To his credit, he has given some rational reasons about why he feels ATAGS program need to mature. He has said in a blog post (it is somewhere in this thread) that the primary reason is the deteriorating accuracy at extended ranges. IIRC, he said the shells would need some terminal guidance(like a PGK fuze or some other type) to compensate for that and until that time such a guidance system is available, it might not be enough to merely increase the range. Another reason is probably due to the big increase in recoil that need to be managed for effective sustained fire, will make things more difficult with limits set about any increase in gross weight of the guns.

The Dhanush fiasco cant be let to rot and needs to be directly handled by PMO, as it impinges war in the Himalayas, where air superiority might not be assured under all circumstances. One feel sorry for the likes of Baba Kalyani, who seem to have put his heart and money into an area where India desperately needs such inputs!

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Anujan » 22 Jun 2021 01:59

Sorely miss Shri Parrikar

The acceleration he gave to Arty, Tejas, LCH etc seems to be slowing down, now there is nobody weilding danda from the top. Import lobby/babudom is like termites, someone needs to be vigilant at all times.

RS did some great things, like negative import list, CDS etc. But Parrikar is the one who got everyone into a room, asked them to sign on the dotted line.


Read this and weep

Apart from the regular user trials and general staff qualitative requirement (GSQR) evaluation, the Army also insisted for another round of trial fires named as user-exploitation. This was introduced for the first time for any system. After that, the pre-deployment firing exercise was again conducted on the guns ....Firing 5500 rounds in trials itself.


I dont know whether to laugh or cry.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cit ... 524828.cms

Other militarizes are innovating in nurturing a domestic defence industry, and speeding up procurement. We are innovating in adding more trials.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby nam » 22 Jun 2021 02:47

Wait for couple of years when US starts fielding it's 25 ltr M109. Then suddenly we will the need to "induct" a 25ltr gun.

The nitpicking about the 25 ltr, is trying to induct Excalibur type range extension versus increasing the chamber volume. Imagine inducting Excalibur in volumes.. :roll:

And if IA wants 23 ltr, there is BF's gun as well. For some reason, IA only wants to import and hand it over to OFB for production! :roll:

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Vayutuvan » 22 Jun 2021 05:10

darshhan wrote:I agree with this only partially. Lot of officers are corrupt even where politicians and bureaucrats are not involved. And they are present at all levels. It is not that corruption is a switch that is automatically switched on when coming in contact with a neta or babu.


Quantify or else "a lot" means nothing. A lot of them are corrupt a lot/some times and a lot/some money is involved. An army wouldn't be performing as well as it had if the corruption is "so much".

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby srai » 22 Jun 2021 06:10

^^^
IMO, depends on where the person is posted. Procurement/Approval authority seem to be an area of suspect, and anyone—top-down—in it won’t be able to escape its influence.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 22 Jun 2021 06:57

hnair wrote:
mody wrote:Even veterans like Lt. Gen Shankar running down the ATAGS program is sad. He has consistently claimed that ATAGS has a long way to go and is not ready. Wonder why.


To his credit, he has given some rational reasons about why he feels ATAGS program need to mature. He has said in a blog post (it is somewhere in this thread) that the primary reason is the deteriorating accuracy at extended ranges. IIRC, he said the shells would need some terminal guidance(like a PGK fuze or some other type) to compensate for that and until that time such a guidance system is available, it might not be enough to merely increase the range. Another reason is probably due to the big increase in recoil that need to be managed for effective sustained fire, will make things more difficult with limits set about any increase in gross weight of the guns.

The Dhanush fiasco cant be let to rot and needs to be directly handled by PMO, as it impinges war in the Himalayas, where air superiority might not be assured under all circumstances. One feel sorry for the likes of Baba Kalyani, who seem to have put his heart and money into an area where India desperately needs such inputs!


The DRDO version of PGK fuze is being productionized from last year.
Yes accuracy dips with range but the ERFB lethal radius is more than the miss distance of ATAGS.
Even with PGK it wont have the Excalibur type of point hit capability.
So to demand Excalibur accuracy which costs a lot for a plain vanilla shell is ridiculous.*
Just an excuse to stall and create a gap to be filled by imports.
This time should not be allowed.

* Quite possible for jeranils are tending to being ridiculous.
I heard that some want S-400 to be used to defend depots from air attack!
They want to use an area defence system as a point defence system.
Their knowledge is the SA-6 batteries.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 22 Jun 2021 06:59

srai, It will be sorted out.

CDS is there to iron these out.
He is taking Clausewitz to heart.
To paraphrase:
The primary mission of the War department is to prepare for war and fight the war.
All this bokwas nataks are to stop prepare for war with petty tricks.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 22 Jun 2021 08:18

The CEP of 155MM guns is a % of the range. So longer the range the gun is being fired at. The higher the miss distance will be in absolute terms.

As stated earlier, the solution is guided shells.

Anyone who misstates this point is is dishonest. The underlying reasons for this dishonesty are irrelevant in the ultimate analysis.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby YashG » 22 Jun 2021 09:33

ramana wrote:Well the political remedy is to win 2024. And short term is UP 2022.
Very soon expect proposal to lease Athos guns.
The first to suggest should be shot.


Ramanaji I do not understand how winning 2024 or UP will
Change anything. If the present govt. wants it can buy dhanush, atags, more LCAs and what not. There is no one to stop them even today. If there is one *unarguably* thing great abt current government- it doesnt stop, does whatever needs to be done by hook or crook when it decides to do something. Yet it has not shown the same resolve for buying desi.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Rsatchi » 22 Jun 2021 12:01

Ramanaji,Jamwalji and others
Pickle/cream roll/diesel et al chota-mota cut money in the long run doesn't harm the security.
But what I was alluding to was the big ticket purchases of sub-standard hardware which might harm the security of the nation.
Post '71 what have the tin-cans faced in terms of adversary apart from imagined battle or tanks trials in Russia.
Arjun could have been inducted with changes and modifications and by now we would have had Mk III/IV,
Same with Arty, and other big-ticket purchases.
And again I will stick my neck out and say Khadi Ninjaji is not the RM you would want if you want Athmanirbhar going
Gadkariji seems to have done wonders in the transport infrastructure maybe him?? or Jay Panda ???

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 22 Jun 2021 12:24

RNS, from all accounts is an extremely measured & balanced man. If he has received a clear mandate from Modi then I would expect him to deliver on it.

We have to remember that he was the home minister for 5 years and the domestic security situation had improved quite a bit.

Remember, that we had no indication that OFB was about to be broken in 7 parts. Yet we saw this less than a week ago.

While I will continue to claim that any potential purchase of ATHOS will be a scam. I am also optimistic that it will not be acquired. If the Indian Army insists that the ATAGS is unsuitable. Then they will simply be told to get an alternative domestic 155 MM design. But it wont be ATHOS.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Prem Kumar » 22 Jun 2021 12:30

Anujan wrote:
Apart from the regular user trials and general staff qualitative requirement (GSQR) evaluation, the Army also insisted for another round of trial fires named as user-exploitation. This was introduced for the first time for any system. After that, the pre-deployment firing exercise was again conducted on the guns ....Firing 5500 rounds in trials itself.


User-exploitation: what an appropriate name! Exploit the country's resources for a few pieces of silver.

Next round of trials will be called "User-abuse"

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Prem Kumar » 22 Jun 2021 12:38

The whole ATAGS "longer range causes loss of accuracy" is a bogus argument. They're making a feature look like a defect.

Yes, everyone knows that accuracy will suffer with range. But we are talking a 5-10Km increase in range here. Artillery is an area weapon, its not a pinpoint strike weapon. The fact that we can bring down 100s of tonnes of shrapnel over an area that's 48 Km away will make Pakis & Chinese quiver in their boots.

When we build our own Excalibur version, we can use artillery for precision strikes as well. But to use that as an argument against one of the longest ranging, robust artillery system in the world smacks of a motivated agenda.

Lt Gen Ravi Shankar is much respected. That doesn't mean he is always right. He is of the opinion that we should prioritize Pinaka over Artillery. We actually need boatloads of both. Its not one versus the other.


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