Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
kit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3445
Joined: 13 Jul 2006 18:16

Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby kit » 30 Nov 2019 16:44

Cain Marko wrote:Can some guru please answer my last question... What happened to the 2 additional phalcon order?



there were initial reports of orders and then nothing, and then reports of Russia hiking up prices of the ILs way too much for MoD liking, safe to assume that idea is dead.

The Phalcons are indeed on the way out to be replaced by DRDO AWACS, possibly in suitable numbers.

nam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2636
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby nam » 30 Nov 2019 18:03

kit wrote:https://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7652&start=2160

continuing the discussion from IN thread..


the DRDO AWACS requires power much more than "two engines could handle ", there was indeed some discussion to put in a third engine to provide enough power ! ., i do not think the turboprops can handle the requirement, happy to be corrected !


The turboprops cannot provide the amount of power, that is required to generate ranges in excess of 500KM.

If the radar is been built on GaN, a S band TRM can pump out 110W. A 2000 TRM radar can do 220KW! On paper atleast, with efficiency, cooling requirement etc not allowing 100% output.

You get great range, great resolution, phenomenal tracking numbers.. but the platform needs to provide the power.

I think Netra's one panel alone has 1000 TRM. A330 is going to be 4 panels.

Bart S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2038
Joined: 15 Aug 2016 00:03

Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Bart S » 30 Nov 2019 20:20

kit wrote:https://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7652&start=2160

continuing the discussion from IN thread..


the DRDO AWACS requires power much more than "two engines could handle ", there was indeed some discussion to put in a third engine to provide enough power ! ., i do not think the turboprops can handle the requirement, happy to be corrected !


Unless all engines out there have the exact same capacity, this is a pretty meaningless statement.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18641
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 30 Nov 2019 22:55

I think there was a reference from Dr Christopher where he mentioned a third engine (sort of an APU) would be put in to address the additional power demand for an AWACS. Made me glad because that meant we really wanted to put in a heavy duty radar on the system.
We should be aiming for much better performance than the Phalcon to be honest, if its S-Band, because the higher band would be more susceptible to the stealth shaping of a standard X-S band optimized design and hence to make up for any offset in range. If a GaN based Global Eye can brag its achieving conventional AEW&CS ranges against a LO target, we should aim for even better.

Katare
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2565
Joined: 02 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Katare » 01 Dec 2019 00:09

How would they put a third engine? Must be a good reason they are trying to use an aircraft engine but have anyone tried using a diesel generator instead. It should provide better efficiency and higher power.

Not aure if anyone makes an aerospace grade diesel generator of that size.

ldev
BRFite
Posts: 1663
Joined: 06 Nov 2002 12:31

Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby ldev » 01 Dec 2019 00:23

https://www.pwc.ca/en/products-and-serv ... ower-units

Large APUs currently used in the A-380, Boeing 787 etc.

Bala Vignesh
BRFite
Posts: 1999
Joined: 30 Apr 2009 02:02
Location: Standing at the edge of the cliff
Contact:

Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Bala Vignesh » 01 Dec 2019 01:00

Karan M wrote:I think there was a reference from Dr Christopher where he mentioned a third engine (sort of an APU) would be put in to address the additional power demand for an AWACS.

I think it was in AI2017, CABS had shown a video/model of a 330 with another one of its actual engine placed inside the cabin for additional power.

Bart S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2038
Joined: 15 Aug 2016 00:03

Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Bart S » 01 Dec 2019 04:13

Bala Vignesh wrote:
Karan M wrote:I think there was a reference from Dr Christopher where he mentioned a third engine (sort of an APU) would be put in to address the additional power demand for an AWACS.

I think it was in AI2017, CABS had shown a video/model of a 330 with another one of its actual engine placed inside the cabin for additional power.


It would be an APU, not an actual aircraft engine of the kind that flies the plane.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18641
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 01 Dec 2019 06:39

Katare wrote:How would they put a third engine? Must be a good reason they are trying to use an aircraft engine but have anyone tried using a diesel generator instead. It should provide better efficiency and higher power.

Not aure if anyone makes an aerospace grade diesel generator of that size.


Large APU that "kicks in" when the avionics are on full power draw would be my guess.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18641
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 01 Dec 2019 06:40

Bala Vignesh wrote:
Karan M wrote:I think there was a reference from Dr Christopher where he mentioned a third engine (sort of an APU) would be put in to address the additional power demand for an AWACS.

I think it was in AI2017, CABS had shown a video/model of a 330 with another one of its actual engine placed inside the cabin for additional power.


If you can find that link out, it would be great. A real engine in an enclosed aircraft is very unlikely (for all the obvious reasons) but that image could have been of a large APU?

Bala Vignesh
BRFite
Posts: 1999
Joined: 30 Apr 2009 02:02
Location: Standing at the edge of the cliff
Contact:

Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Bala Vignesh » 01 Dec 2019 11:57

Karan M wrote:If you can find that link out, it would be great. A real engine in an enclosed aircraft is very unlikely (for all the obvious reasons) but that image could have been of a large APU?


Bart S wrote:It would be an APU, not an actual aircraft engine of the kind that flies the plane.

It most certainly wasn't an APU. The aft position of the aircraft was walled up and the engine placed inside it. I thought it was just for representative purposes so left it at that. Will try and find it in my archive drive if it's there.

Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11305
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 01 Dec 2019 12:18

Katare wrote:How would they put a third engine? Must be a good reason they are trying to use an aircraft engine but have anyone tried using a diesel generator instead. It should provide better efficiency and higher power.

Not aure if anyone makes an aerospace grade diesel generator of that size.

Isn't Jet fuel ensure commonality and slightly cheaper with kerosene charectics and why put a internal combustion engine when everything else is jet powered.

Cybaru
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2477
Joined: 12 Jun 2000 11:31
Contact:

Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Cybaru » 01 Dec 2019 12:48

Engine inside? How does the air intake and exhaust work?

tsarkar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2800
Joined: 08 May 2006 13:44
Location: mumbai

Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby tsarkar » 02 Dec 2019 20:52

The Nethra has two radar faces (or is it just one?) and the proposed AWACS will have 3 radar faces in a triangle.

The ERJ 145 has 79.34 kn of installed power while the A330 has 632 kn of installed power. Roughly 8x.

Assuming we use 3 x Nethra radar and despite additional fuselage weight of A330 and fuel load, it seems improbable 8x growth in power wont be able to handle it.

Airlines and airliners carry huge amounts of commercial cargo in addition to passengers - that is how your amazon and flipkart packages are delivered quickly. The Nethra radar will easily fit into the cargo weight of A330

Engine inside fuselage is preposterous aerodynamically and an APU fits snugly without having to wall off a section.

Thakur_B
BRFite
Posts: 1456
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Thakur_B » 02 Dec 2019 21:18

tsarkar wrote:The Nethra has two radar faces (or is it just one?) and the proposed AWACS will have 3 radar faces in a triangle.


4 faces. Proposed AWACS india will have 4 faced array. Netra has 2 radar faces.

fanne
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3097
Joined: 11 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby fanne » 02 Dec 2019 21:23

square radar on a circular mount? Will they rotate or static?

lakshmanM
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 26
Joined: 03 Jun 2018 09:22

Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby lakshmanM » 02 Dec 2019 21:53

four static arrays, 360-degree coverage by electronic beam steering.
Image

JayS
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4366
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby JayS » 02 Dec 2019 23:27

Sandeep U reported that

- The option of 2 Phalcons is not happening
- there is a plan of total 6 A330 bsed AWACS in three phases spanning over a decade. First one out in 7yrs from date of signing contract. Airbus itself has lead time of 4yrs for Airframe delivery.
- 5 more Netra are being pushed for by the CAS himself.

Image

nam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2636
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby nam » 03 Dec 2019 00:20

The four faced antenna design is interesting.

Given the max angle that the beams need is 90 degrees, instead of 120, can two faces generate over lapping beams (at same phase) to increase range & resolution?

Constructive interference ?

srai
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4322
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31

Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby srai » 03 Dec 2019 01:40

5 more Netras makes sense.

A330-version is at least a decade away. Contract signing will take its usual time. Then 4-years for Airbus to deliver followed by 3 or more years for DRDO integration. Some more time for IAF acceptance and squadron formation.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18641
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 03 Dec 2019 01:59

Looks like Netra's performance at Balakote turned the tide.

A 5 Netra order above and beyond the current would give the IAF 8 Netra's - fairly sufficient to handle the entire PAF threat, leaving the Phalcons for the PLAAF.

JTull
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2658
Joined: 18 Jul 2001 11:31

Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby JTull » 03 Dec 2019 02:57

Even Netra airframes will have 2 years' leadtime once price negotiations are concluded and orders placed!

Cybaru
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2477
Joined: 12 Jun 2000 11:31
Contact:

Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Cybaru » 03 Dec 2019 03:03

At least the conversation is in the right direction!! Phew! Lead times are inevitable.

srai
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4322
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31

Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby srai » 03 Dec 2019 03:16

JTull wrote:Even Netra airframes will have 2 years' leadtime once price negotiations are concluded and orders placed!

36-months is the usual standard from contract signing to first lot delivery. But unlike A-330, Netras have a straight path to operation. R&D, user acceptance, training & tactics, and supporting infrastructure already in place with the first 3 induction.

nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7218
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby nachiket » 03 Dec 2019 04:01

Isn't Embraer still on the blacklist? Will the MoD suddenly see the light and remove them from it because it is a critical need? I wouldn't hold my breath.

Kartik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4596
Joined: 04 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Kartik » 03 Dec 2019 06:24

5 more Netra AEW&Cs being pushed by Air Chief Marshal RKS Bhadauria?! Is he a God send or what?!

nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7218
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby nachiket » 03 Dec 2019 07:26

SBajwa, I have moved your post to Politics thread since we do not want political discussions here.

chola
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3876
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby chola » 03 Dec 2019 08:13

nachiket wrote:Isn't Embraer still on the blacklist? Will the MoD suddenly see the light and remove them from it because it is a critical need? I wouldn't hold my breath.


I thought so too but we cut off our nose to spite our face in the HDW scandal. Maybe someone talked sense into this way of punishing ourselves double when there is malfeasance?

Kartik wrote:5 more Netra AEW&Cs being pushed by Air Chief Marshal RKS Bhadauria?! Is he a God send or what?!


Maybe that person is the new ACM! In Amreeki parlance -- Bhaduria is the MAN.

Prasad
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7385
Joined: 16 Nov 2007 00:53
Location: Chennai

Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Prasad » 03 Dec 2019 09:18

Given the antecedents of the Embraer fiasco, I'm sure if the govt wants they can even use it politically and make it worth. That we haven't bought any awacs or mrtt in the last 5 years despite having a govt which is predisposed to listen tells you enough about our procurement.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18641
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 03 Dec 2019 09:30

Just a reminder of how capable the Netra radar really is (via DDR):
Image

Karthik S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5218
Joined: 18 Sep 2009 12:12

Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Karthik S » 03 Dec 2019 10:00

It has the same range as phalcon.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18641
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 03 Dec 2019 10:03

No, the Phalcon would have much greater range for the same RCS, but even so, it is substantial.

Cain Marko
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3836
Joined: 26 Jun 2005 10:26

Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Cain Marko » 03 Dec 2019 11:10

kit wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:Can some guru please answer my last question... What happened to the 2 additional phalcon order?



there were initial reports of orders and then nothing, and then reports of Russia hiking up prices of the ILs way too much for MoD liking, safe to assume that idea is dead.

The Phalcons are indeed on the way out to be replaced by DRDO AWACS, possibly in suitable numbers.

Thank you Kitji. I wonder if they will totally abandon those a50 based phalcons...

Cain Marko
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3836
Joined: 26 Jun 2005 10:26

Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Cain Marko » 03 Dec 2019 11:13

5 more netras. Wow. God sent. As usual brf ahead of curve.

sum
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9965
Joined: 08 May 2007 17:04
Location: (IT-vity && DRDO) nagar

Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby sum » 03 Dec 2019 11:20

^^ Errr, all these are just words yet.

Absolutely no reason to believe it will move an inch forward with all the Embraer blacklisting/corruption fiasco. Any new platform and all the tendering/airframe modification etc will start afresh and we know how soon it will conclude.

TLDR, the only chance was right at the start where we should have got hold of 5-8 airframes modified one shot and finished it. Any re-ordering is always <50% chance of going through

JTull
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2658
Joined: 18 Jul 2001 11:31

Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby JTull » 03 Dec 2019 18:19

idrw has chimed in with it's speculation that C295 could be the platform for 5 new Netras.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20147
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Philip » 03 Dec 2019 18:50

The report about extra costs was in 2017 and were for the new heavily upgraded IL-76-MD-90s built in Russia not Uzbek assembled like earlier Sov era birds.New engines, glass cockpit, extra 10t payload, extra range anf only a 3- man crew.
They cost just $40-45M a pop, 1/3rd. that of an A-330! Why the A-330 was earlief rejected.The anti-Ru lobby has been hard at work as on price they're unbeatable even for extra tankers, where repeatedly western birds were shot down as being more expensive. So in a clever move the specs were changed, like the VVIP helos, to a 2-engined bird only. This ruled out the upgraded IL-78s.

However, using the C-295s as a Netra platform is a good idea as we need increased numbers to cover our vast airspace right from the west coast to Rajasthan, Punjab, Kashmir, Ladakh, HP, U'khand the border with Nepal and the entire N-east. Coastal surveillance and islands another mattrr.

The 2 extra Phalcons must be acquired, 3 preferably with at least a dozen C-295 Netras, all with refuelling capacity.
If reports are true will help imlrove coverage, but being slower than the EMBs be more vulnerable.
Last edited by Philip on 03 Dec 2019 19:21, edited 3 times in total.

chola
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3876
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby chola » 03 Dec 2019 18:54

JTull wrote:idrw has chimed in with it's speculation that C295 could be the platform for 5 new Netras.


I hope this is true. It works well for the eventual induction of the C295 as MII. The Embraer can't be the long term solution even without the scandal.

When that happens we can get even more Netras with an Indian produced platform to supplement the more expensive A330 AWACS.

RKumar
BRFite
Posts: 1123
Joined: 26 Jul 2009 12:29
Location: Evolution is invention, explosion is destruction.

Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby RKumar » 03 Dec 2019 19:04

I hope GoI bites the bullet and sign 5 Embraer and done with it. It will be a nightmare to maintain this circus.

tsarkar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2800
Joined: 08 May 2006 13:44
Location: mumbai

Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby tsarkar » 03 Dec 2019 20:01

Kartik wrote:5 more Netra AEW&Cs being pushed by Air Chief Marshal RKS Bhadauria?! Is he a God send or what?!

ACM Bhaduria did a six turn spin when he flew the HTT-40 some time back.


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: MSN [Bot], Sanju and 76 guests