Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

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Kakarat
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Kakarat » 24 Aug 2020 01:48

https://twitter.com/IndianDefenceRA/sta ... 5653505024
Lt Gen DS Ahuja,Chief of Staff
Southern Comd visited BEML ,HAL , Bharat Forge Ltd, L&T giving impetus to #MakeinIndia intiative


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Mollick.R
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Mollick.R » 29 Aug 2020 12:40

From Twitter// Posting for Good Quality Pictures...............
(*KSSL == KALYANI STRATEGIC SYSTEMS LTD)

Vinod DX9 @VinodDX9 7:00 PM · Aug 28, 2020
KSSL has made four very important artillery systems for #IndianArmy

Garuda V2 - 105/37
ULH - 155/39
MGS - 155/39
Bharat 52 - 155/52

All these four will be game changer and need induction into large numbers .


https://twitter.com/VinodDX9/status/1299338553080516609

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Gyan
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Gyan » 29 Aug 2020 18:58

Actually Kalyani offers more versions

ULH 155/39, 155/52 in Steel
ULH 155/39, 155/52 in Titanium
ULH 155/39 Steel mounted in light truck
Bharat 155/52 towed
105/37, steel, mounted on truck, jeep
ATAGS

8 versions but Zero Orders

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby abhik » 29 Aug 2020 19:56

There is a mounted low recoil 155/39 also if I'm not wrong (I'm guessing they are not pushing it as much due to it having US tech).

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Kakarat » 29 Aug 2020 20:03


Kakarat
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Kakarat » 31 Aug 2020 15:52

Major deal for private sector: Defence Ministry inks Rs 5,000 cr project with L&T, Tata

...
The contract, which has been in the making since 2017, will go to private sector companies L&T and Tata Aerospace and Defence, with a significant portion of work also falling into public sector unit BEML, which supplies the trucks for the rocket launchers.

The Pinaka program has been a home grown success story, with two regiments already in service and technology transfer successfully executed by DRDO to the private sector for manufacturing the systems as well as ammunition.

Out of the six new regiments, L&T has been awarded the contract to manufacture four while the balance two will be made by Tata Aerospace and Defence. This would be one of the largest orders placed on the private sector in India from the Army. ET had reported in May that the Pinaka program had been identified to be fast tracked, both to boost the private industry during the Covid 19 crisis and the utilise money saved from delays in delivery of weapon systems currently being imported.

As reported by ET, the first ever rockets fully manufactured by the private sector have also been successfully test fired by the Army this month. The Pinaka rockets were tested at a firing range in Pokharan and achieved the desired results by accurately hitting targets. The rockets have been manufactured by Economic Explosives Limited (EEL) and are the first munition of its kind made by the private sector in India. They are also a success story for DRDO that has been engaging with the private sector to transfer manufacturing technology for home developed systems.

...

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ashishvikas » 31 Aug 2020 18:37

Defense Ministry today signed contracts with Bharat Earth Movers Ltd., Tata Power Company Ltd. and Larsen & Toubro (L&T) for supply of Six Pinaka Regiments to the Regiment of Artillery of the Indian Army at an approximate cost of Rs. 2580 Crores.

6 Pinaka Regiments - 114 Launchers - 330 BEML vehicles - Deployment in NE by 2024.

https://twitter.com/AdityaRajKaul/statu ... 30951?s=20

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby SSridhar » 31 Aug 2020 19:02

Is this the one under discussion since c. 2015, these six regiments or is it a new order? The 2015 one was also supposed to have been awarded to these same three organizations. The cost mentioned then was Rs 14,600 Crores. The Rs. 2580 Crores mentioned above must be cost per regiment. I hope the 2015 order has since been completed.

Then there were other reports. In March 2016, it was announced that two regiments were operational while two more were on order. In September 2016, the CCS cleared the 3rd & 4th regiments of Pinaka at a cost of Rs. 3300 Crores. The Defence Acquisition Committee (DAC) had also cleared, on 7th November 2016, an additional six regiments valued at Rs. 14,633 Crores. Ultimately, 22 Pinaka Mark-1 regiments would be inducted into the Army at a cost of Rs. 61000 Crores. An order for two additional Pinaka regiments has been under process since 2017, to be made by L&T and Tata Aerospace and Defence for an estimated Rs 4,500 cr.

I expect the 22 regiments to be a mix of Mk1, Mk1A (ER), Mk 2 & Guided Pinaka.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby tsarkar » 31 Aug 2020 19:35

These are the 5th to 10th regiments.

Total 2+2+6 Regiments

https://web.archive.org/web/20161209133 ... 852579.cms

There were quality issues in rocket manufacture that held up orders and formation of new regiments. With EEL taking up rocket production, the quality issues apparently seem to have been resolved as per the latest tests.

CAG 2018 report covered Pinaka manufacture by OFB.

https://www.business-standard.com/artic ... 117_1.html

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ashishvikas » 31 Aug 2020 20:30

Gurus - please help me to understand TATRA trucks vs TATA/AL alternatives. Do we still need TATRA ?

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby SSridhar » 31 Aug 2020 20:36

tsarkar wrote:These are the 5th to 10th regiments. . . There were quality issues in rocket manufacture that held up orders and formation of new regiments.

Thanks, tsarkar.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby mody » 31 Aug 2020 20:52

The total number of regiments that will eventually be inducted, seem to have been reduced to 12-16 regiments, from the earlier projection of 22 regiments.
More tube artillery will be inducted instead.
Lt. Gen Shankar (Retd), was lamenting about the same, in an article a while back.

Hope the 6 new regiments will be for the guided Pinaka. There is still some confusion about the MK2 and guided Pinaka. Are the two supposed to be different?

Maybe the MK2 will have enhanced range, but not guided and will be 12 rockets per launch vehicle. The guided Pinaka will have an even higher range, upto 75 Kms, with guidance, but only 8 rockets per launch vehicle.

Am I correct in my above assessment?

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Vips » 01 Sep 2020 00:46

ashishvikas wrote:Gurus - please help me to understand TATRA trucks vs TATA/AL alternatives. Do we still need TATRA ?


Isnt it ironical that while TATA make trucks are replacing the TATRA's for various roles it will itself be using those from BEML for the 2 PINAKA regiments it is going to produce for the Army!!!!

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 01 Sep 2020 02:19

From my unnderstanding for certain jobs the Tatra is well suited. It has a unique torque box frame that aboorbs the bumps etc on the off road areas. So it still has its uses. I hope they moved away from the old bribes model.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby tsarkar » 01 Sep 2020 11:46

ashishvikas wrote:Gurus - please help me to understand TATRA trucks vs TATA/AL alternatives. Do we still need TATRA ?


ramana wrote:From my unnderstanding for certain jobs the Tatra is well suited. It has a unique torque box frame that aboorbs the bumps etc on the off road areas. So it still has its uses. I hope they moved away from the old bribes model.


Tatra has a unique patented technology of rigid backbone tube and swinging half-axles giving independent suspension resulting in unmatched mobility with super heavy loads in rough terrain.

Tata, Ashok Leyland, and many other international players dont have the patented technology of Tatra.

So for battlefield mobility of heavy loads, we will need Tatra. Nothing else fits the job.

The corruption needs to be dealt separately but I hope the in-animate product isnt penalized for corrupt people.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 01 Sep 2020 11:59

tsarkar wrote:
ashishvikas wrote:Gurus - please help me to understand TATRA trucks vs TATA/AL alternatives. Do we still need TATRA ?


ramana wrote:From my unnderstanding for certain jobs the Tatra is well suited. It has a unique torque box frame that aboorbs the bumps etc on the off road areas. So it still has its uses. I hope they moved away from the old bribes model.


Tatra has a unique patented technology of rigid backbone tube and swinging half-axles giving independent suspension resulting in unmatched mobility with super heavy loads in rough terrain.

Tata, Ashok Leyland, and many other international players dont have the patented technology of Tatra.

So for battlefield mobility of heavy loads, we will need Tatra. Nothing else fits the job.

The corruption needs to be dealt separately but I hope the in-animate product isnt penalized for corrupt people.



Or develop similar technology. Tatra is not unique with this technology. Russians and the Americas both have something similar.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby tsarkar » 01 Sep 2020 12:23

mody wrote:The total number of regiments that will eventually be inducted, seem to have been reduced to 12-16 regiments, from the earlier projection of 22 regiments.
More tube artillery will be inducted instead.
Lt. Gen Shankar (Retd), was lamenting about the same, in an article a while back.


This is General Shankar's full write-up

https://www.gunnersshot.com/2020/06/atm ... l?q=pinaka

Development of Pinaka MBRL commenced in 1987 with a QR of 45 km range, based on 60s vintage technology of USSR. After meandering for 23 years, Army, DRDO, OFB, L&T and TATAs came up with a system. It was inducted into the Army in 2010. Range – 37.5 km! What if the range was 7.5 KM short? It was indigenous, fully supported and accepted. The system stabilized. An extended range (55 km) version was quickly developed. It was inaccurate. Hence in an out of the box solution a guidance system was incorporated in 2016. Within a year initial trials were carried out successfully with a range of 70 km and outstanding accuracy. The investment paid off. As further trials continued, production facilities should have been set up in parallel. If parallel production had been set up, by now some of the critical Chinese facilities in Ladakh would be in reach including parts of the Western Highway. The Guided Pinaka increases range and precision. It enhances firepower tremendously. It has potential for 30% range enhancement. It has a plethora of warheads. It offsets the gap in depletion of aircraft in the IAF. Completely indigenous. It has deterrent value. This is what Pakistan says “Pinaka is an artillery missile system capable of destroying 900 square metres at a 20-80 kilometre range by firing a salvo of 12 rockets within 48 seconds. The Pinaka Mk-II rocket is modified as a missile by integrating with the navigation, control, and guidance system to improve the end accuracy and enhance the range. It is believed that the guided version of the Pinaka system is being developed to deliver nuclear warheads at short ranges” Clearly worried! However, four years back, we halved the number of regiments which were originally visualized. Even for the number of regiments sanctioned, orders are hanging fire. Force multiplication or force division?


The induction was stopped because of defective rockets over 10 years of manufacture. No point in inducting regiments with empty launchers when rockets are defective or unavailable. Now with the private sector making the rockets, inductions have restarted.

mody wrote:Hope the 6 new regiments will be for the guided Pinaka. There is still some confusion about the MK2 and guided Pinaka. Are the two supposed to be different?

Maybe the MK2 will have enhanced range, but not guided and will be 12 rockets per launch vehicle. The guided Pinaka will have an even higher range, upto 75 Kms, with guidance, but only 8 rockets per launch vehicle.

Am I correct in my above assessment?


As mentioned by Gen Shankar, the unguided extended range rocket is inaccurate. So if a new version is inducted, it will be guided.

This DRDO publication gives good details on the Pinaka, including extension of range of Mk1 rocket and Grad rockets -

https://www.drdo.gov.in/sites/default/f ... 19_Web.pdf

Anything with a range >= 50 km will need guidance because of too many factors affecting ballistic trajectory.

Also see how the canted fin stabilizers of Mk1 rockets evolved to flat fin stabilizers in Mk1 enhanced and Guided Pinaka

Mk2 unguided wont be inducted but possibly Guided Pinaka can. Need to see what finally happens.

Please note that the Pinaka launchers use pods, so pods of Mk1, Mk1 Enhanced & Guided Pinaka can be easily interchanged.

Given the rapid evolution of rockets by DRDO and Indian Army, the move of production from OF Chanda to private sector was a much needed step.

Near misses give good visual effects but leaves the targets unaffected.

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This is shock testing of US Aircraft Carriers. BTW those complaining testing of Indian systems need to see this example and understand the high degree of testing done by mature powers.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby srin » 01 Sep 2020 12:29

tsarkar wrote:
ashishvikas wrote:Gurus - please help me to understand TATRA trucks vs TATA/AL alternatives. Do we still need TATRA ?


ramana wrote:From my unnderstanding for certain jobs the Tatra is well suited. It has a unique torque box frame that aboorbs the bumps etc on the off road areas. So it still has its uses. I hope they moved away from the old bribes model.


Tatra has a unique patented technology of rigid backbone tube and swinging half-axles giving independent suspension resulting in unmatched mobility with super heavy loads in rough terrain.

Tata, Ashok Leyland, and many other international players dont have the patented technology of Tatra.


So for battlefield mobility of heavy loads, we will need Tatra. Nothing else fits the job.

The corruption needs to be dealt separately but I hope the in-animate product isnt penalized for corrupt people.


Patents expire after 20 years. I searched Google Patents and found a few issued in 1970's long expired now. We have been using Tatras for more than 20 years. So, there is nothing stopping Tatas or even BEML from reverse engineering it legally.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby tsarkar » 01 Sep 2020 12:29

Pratyush wrote:Or develop similar technology. Tatra is not unique with this technology. Russians and the Americas both have something similar.

Tatra technology is patented, so it is unique :D

Development can happen, but given the relatively small requirement of military trucks with heavy loads and high battlefield mobility, amortizing the development costs will drive unit prices high.

High price of Pinaka trucks may leave less money for LUH or Dhanush purchase.

Indian Army doesnt have unlimited budget :)

As taught in High School, and quoting Adam Smith,

People's wants are unlimited. But the resources to satisfy the wants are scarce. Economics discusses how men can get the maximum satisfaction by using the scarce means to satisfy wants on the basis of priority.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby tsarkar » 01 Sep 2020 12:40

srin wrote:Patents expire after 20 years. I searched Google Patents and found a few issued in 1970's long expired now. We have been using Tatras for more than 20 years. So, there is nothing stopping Tatas or even BEML from reverse engineering it legally.


Tata's being an international conglomerate, the reputation damage will be immense. Defence is a very small business for Tata's and not worth compromising the remaining billions.

Image

Any activity by BEML will impact GoI reputation. Given that most of India's external business is in the Services Sector, imagine the potential loss of reputation and business. Is it worth a few 100's of trucks?

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 01 Sep 2020 12:52

Some media versions mentions guided version also is part of the deal, some will target wide areas in Salvo mode and some will be Guided versions to hit High value targets.

https://www.indiatvnews.com/business/news-l-t-tata-to-manufacture-pinaka-multi-barrel-rocket-launchers-major-boost-to-private-sector-industries-646162

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby srin » 01 Sep 2020 13:17

tsarkar wrote:
srin wrote:Patents expire after 20 years. I searched Google Patents and found a few issued in 1970's long expired now. We have been using Tatras for more than 20 years. So, there is nothing stopping Tatas or even BEML from reverse engineering it legally.


Tata's being an international conglomerate, the reputation damage will be immense. Defence is a very small business for Tata's and not worth compromising the remaining billions.

Any activity by BEML will impact GoI reputation. Given that most of India's external business is in the Services Sector, imagine the potential loss of reputation and business. Is it worth a few 100's of trucks?


Surely, you are joking. Reputation damage ? For off-patent products ? In defense industry ?

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby tsarkar » 01 Sep 2020 17:07

srin wrote:
tsarkar wrote:
Tata's being an international conglomerate, the reputation damage will be immense. Defence is a very small business for Tata's and not worth compromising the remaining billions.

Any activity by BEML will impact GoI reputation. Given that most of India's external business is in the Services Sector, imagine the potential loss of reputation and business. Is it worth a few 100's of trucks?


Surely, you are joking. Reputation damage ? For off-patent products ? In defense industry ?


The joke's on you, my friend.

Did you comprehend the fact that Tata Group's non defence and global business far outweighs their defence business and they cannot sacrifice their non defence global business and reputation for the order of a few 100 or 1000 trucks.

Are you sure that Tatra patents have expired? Its their core business, not just in defence but in mining and heavy engineering globally. They will just let go of their IP infringement so cheaply?

Did you comprehend the fact that GoI's global economic interests and dream of 5 trillion dollar economy before next General Elections are way larger than a few 1000 trucks? If a PSU like BEML does reverse engineering (IP theft), does GoI have any reputation left internationally?

Don't you think the Czech Government will take up any case of reverse engineering (IP theft) with Government of India?

Imagine if the Czech Government raises this at WTO. Imagine an IP infringement verdict against BEML/GoI at WTO. What will happen to India's reputation?

Without international business, how does the Indian economy cross 5 trillion dollars?

Why is GoI paying Russia for AK-47's when Munger and Darra Adam Khel gunsmiths make cheap copies?

https://www.financialexpress.com/india- ... l/1337053/
Munger is famous for its locally manufactured firearms that have made their way across the country. In 2014, the Special Cell of Delhi Police had recovered a ‘Munger-made’ AK-47 rifle from a gang of alleged illegal arms suppliers in the national capital. The Delhi Police had also started ‘Operation Munger’ to nab illegal arms suppliers. Munger-made weapons were so sophisticated that the then Special Commissioner (Delhi Police Special Cell) SN Shrivastava had said: “The craftsmanship can be judged by the fact that the recovered weapon is exactly like an original AK-47 assault rifle.”


IP is a very serious matter and Governments take it very seriously.

Comments like yours makes me seriously wonder the age, maturity and understanding :eek:

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 01 Sep 2020 19:39

Sometimes I wonder if people deliberately don't understand what is being said.

A comment on developing technology and capabilities, becomes a discussion on IP and how seriously it is taken by companies and government of India.

The question I have is as follows;

If a company b is comming up with independent suspension for 8*8 truck for High off road mobility. And company a has developed a similar technology. Can b be stopped from developing similar technology.

I don't think so.

IIRC, Indian patent laws don't recognise a patent that takes a patent on a physical shape, or principal of science. Indipendent suspension will fall in principle of science.


On a related but separate note I am sure TATA or AL come up with something similar to https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oshkosh ... ion_System.

The army needs at least 1 lakh wheeled vehicle of all types. Over the next few decades.

Development of such technology makes it economical for the Indian army.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 02 Sep 2020 00:55

https://twitter.com/KUNALBI25146617/sta ... 19808?s=20 --> Here is a rare snap of inside K9 Vajra 155mm x 52 cal self-propelled gun howitzer, neat design.

Image

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby vivek_ahuja » 02 Sep 2020 10:23

Is 100 K-9 Vajra vehicles sufficient for a mobile armored force the size of the Indian Army? I seriously doubt that it is. Are there plans in place to build more once the 100 get completed (they are already well past half-way on that order already)?

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby tsarkar » 02 Sep 2020 15:26

Pratyush wrote:If a company b is comming up with independent suspension for 8*8 truck for High off road mobility. And company a has developed a similar technology. Can b be stopped from developing similar technology.

The precise meaning of words "similar technology" is the key to answering your question.

If the similar technology meaning is generic, viz, Turbofan, then India is free to pursue the Kaveri program.

But if similar technology meaning is specific, viz the layout, arrangement, number and design of compressor stages is similar, then one can be taken to court for minor infringements and sanctions imposed by nations for major infringements.

Pratyush wrote:IIRC, Indian patent laws don't recognise a patent that takes a patent on a physical shape, or principal of science. Indipendent suspension will fall in principle of science.


Firstly, most Indian technology companies get their revenue internationally. The India L1 market gives peanuts business

For example Bharat Forge,
https://www.bharatforge.com/company/about-us
we have transcontinental presence across ten manufacturing locations spread across India, Germany, Sweden, France and North America.


TCS is the biggest Tata Group company and this is from where their revenues come from.
Image
link to source of data https://www.quora.com/What-is-your-view ... make-entry

Secondly, most Indian companies with anything economically useful file patents with USPTO. Applies to IIT researchers as well. No one bothers about Indian CGPDTM given the poor IP research or protection.

All Indian Lawyers specializing in IP Laws learn US laws and work with USPTO and WIPO (World Intellectual Property Organization) that is a UN organization https://www.wipo.int/portal/en/index.html

IP is a high paying sector for Indian Law Graduates that all aspire for. Its a much better field than petty case or criminal lawyers sitting outside court with a typewriter like Jolly LLB.

Any respectable Indian researcher, scientist or engineer who has developed any economically or technically useful IP doesnt even take a scant look at Indian CGPDTM. They all file patents with USPTO.

Only people who file India patents are researchers in Govt Labs and Universities only for getting themselves the label of filing patents. None of such patents are economically or technically useful nor are they worth royalties of any sort.

The reason I explained the absolute worthlessness of the Indian Patent system is because any Indian company violating international patent laws will face severe action in US & other nations and stand to lose their revenues from those geographies.

They simply cant take that risk

Pratyush wrote:On a related but separate note I am sure TATA or AL come up with something similar to https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oshkosh ... ion_System.

The army needs at least 1 lakh wheeled vehicle of all types. Over the next few decades.

Development of such technology makes it economical for the Indian army.


Sure, if someone pays them for it.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby mody » 02 Sep 2020 15:42

TSarkar, once a patent expires, (max life for any patent is 20 years. Every year companies have to pay to keep the patent alive. The fees increase as the years go by), it is fair game for anyone to copy. Some companies do try to indulge in ever greening of the patent by claiming some incremental improvements and filling additional or new claims.
However, once any patent has expired, it is open for anyone to copy the same. Companies holding the patent have to decide just how lucrative the patented technology is and how much of an advantage it offers them.
In the case of trucks, I suspect it might be that the cost of development and testing of the independent suspension like the Tatra trucks is just not worthwhile for the likes of Tata or AL. The total numbers required maybe too small. Also, unlike Tatra, they probably are not looking at a potential export market. There only a few countries that require such heavy duty trucks for military application. Only countries manufacturing large missiles require the same. China, Russia and the US all of their own products.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ks_sachin » 02 Sep 2020 16:25

vivek_ahuja wrote:Is 100 K-9 Vajra vehicles sufficient for a mobile armored force the size of the Indian Army? I seriously doubt that it is. Are there plans in place to build more once the 100 get completed (they are already well past half-way on that order already)?


Best person to answer this question is Rohit Vats..

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 02 Sep 2020 16:38

TSarkar, does that mean that any companies development of independent suspension will be stopped by Oshkosh or Tatra?

The answer is no.

The requirement is of the India army can be met using Indian products in the next few years. The r&d is already taking place.

Ramana, had started a thread arround independence day for a set of questions to be asked from DRDO Boss. In that there was a discussion of a 6*6 that displayed exceptional off road mobility. And funnily it was not a public product from either BEML or TATA or Ashok Leyland.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby tsarkar » 02 Sep 2020 18:54

mody wrote:In the case of trucks, I suspect it might be that the cost of development and testing of the independent suspension like the Tatra trucks is just not worthwhile for the likes of Tata or AL. The total numbers required maybe too small. Also, unlike Tatra, they probably are not looking at a potential export market. There only a few countries that require such heavy duty trucks for military application. Only countries manufacturing large missiles require the same. China, Russia and the US all of their own products.

Yes. China license manufactures.

Pratyush wrote:TSarkar, does that mean that any companies development of independent suspension will be stopped by Oshkosh or Tatra?

My response was regarding reverse engineering. Anyone is free to do zero base development.

BEML was used by the Gandhi family to swindle royalty paid to Tatra. The ToT was hence very poorly drafted. During the cold war, with sales monopoly held by US & USSR, other non superpower countries like Germany, Sweden, Holland gave ToT readily.
Germany - Type 209, MAN Trucks
Sweden -Bofors
Holland - Hollandse Signaalapparaten radars for naval and land use. TRS2219, Flycatcher, Reporter, RAWL & RAWS radars with full ToT
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File ... e_2011.jpg
The land and sea Trishul used the Flycatcher radar
https://defenceforumindia.com/attachmen ... jpg.22746/
The DRDO ADFCR uses Flycatcher upgraded indigenously with latest technology.
https://www.drdo.gov.in/air-defence-fire-control-radar

So a better ToT and licensing agreement could have been made with Tatra.

Pratyush wrote:Ramana, had started a thread arround independence day for a set of questions to be asked from DRDO Boss. In that there was a discussion of a 6*6 that displayed exceptional off road mobility. And funnily it was not a public product from either BEML or TATA or Ashok Leyland.

That photo looks eerily similar to the German MAN proposal for replacement of Shaktiman trucks. It was called Hanuman and displayed in many Aero India's and Defexpo's. We chose the inferior Iveco based Stallion as it was L1.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 08 Sep 2020 07:49

ks_sachin wrote:
vivek_ahuja wrote:Is 100 K-9 Vajra vehicles sufficient for a mobile armored force the size of the Indian Army? I seriously doubt that it is. Are there plans in place to build more once the 100 get completed (they are already well past half-way on that order already)?


Best person to answer this question is Rohit Vats..


For the three strike corps as it gives one regiment on tracks. (3x8 guns+ 1x8 reserve)
But know it has to be revisited.


Lets see.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby vivek_ahuja » 09 Sep 2020 00:41

ramana wrote:For the three strike corps as it gives one regiment on tracks. (3x8 guns+ 1x8 reserve)


That seriously does not sound enough, unless it is being used at corps level. I believe in the democratization of artillery: i.e. the ability of junior officers to be able to call for mobile artillery support as needed on the frontlines. At the Corps level, this sounds like one of those front breakthrough type units that will be pulled back to Corps after the initial barrage is done and the attack has broken through the initial frontline.

A regiment sounds powerful, but when you compare it with the size and scale of the Indian armored force and border length, it is difficult to see how effective they could be in small chunks or if concentrated only to one zone.

Also, attrition reserves have to be given consideration...

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ks_sachin » 09 Sep 2020 02:33

vivek_ahuja wrote:
ramana wrote:For the three strike corps as it gives one regiment on tracks. (3x8 guns+ 1x8 reserve)


That seriously does not sound enough, unless it is being used at corps level. I believe in the democratization of artillery: i.e. the ability of junior officers to be able to call for mobile artillery support as needed on the frontlines. At the Corps level, this sounds like one of those front breakthrough type units that will be pulled back to Corps after the initial barrage is done and the attack has broken through the initial frontline.

A regiment sounds powerful, but when you compare it with the size and scale of the Indian armored force and border length, it is difficult to see how effective they could be in small chunks or if concentrated only to one zone.

Also, attrition reserves have to be given consideration...


Vivek on a related question what do you think is the frontage available to us for massed tank offensives.

What will any offensive look from our side?

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby suryag » 09 Sep 2020 03:02

Karanm sir, I had asked this question in a different thread. Where does Sharang fit in the grand scheme of tube artillery. Will it just be a full upgrade of all 130mm guns to the 155mm standard towards achieving ammo homogeneity or will there be newer regiments who will be using this design. I am not sure if there would be newer regiments as it is a towed artillery piece and doesnt have an APU for "shoot and scoot" ability like the Dhanush gun. Given that, what would be the utility of such a gun ? Given, that we have the K-9 Vajra, Dhanush, M777. I can imagine utility of 105mm IFG for light firepower but what misses me is the utility of the Sharang upgrade except for replacing the 130mms.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby nachiket » 09 Sep 2020 03:13

If I'm not mistaken, there are no "new" Sharang guns being built. It is a comprehensive upgrade of current M-46 inventory. So I don't understand how new regiments can be raised with them. Existing regiments will be enhancing their capability when they receive the upgraded guns. Both range and damage potential of the shells will be improved. And the logistics simplified at the same time. You will have 300 155mm artillery guns available now. That is a big deal. Remember we only ever bought 400 of the FH-77B.

Think of what it means if we have to shift the FH-77B's to the Kashmir valley like we did during the Kargil war or to Ladakh or Arunachal Pradesh to deal with the Chinese. Our plains formations will not be denuded of 155mm artillery like what happened back then. Obviously now we have the M-777, Dhanush and K-9 also available (~350 units total when current orders are completed) which we did not back then. So the situation is even better. You can never have too much artillery.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby suryag » 09 Sep 2020 03:37

Thanks Nachiket sir

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 09 Sep 2020 03:41

Plan is to upgrade all the 130mm guns in inventory.
And make it a homogenous force of 155mm shells.
And Sharang upgrade is quite low priced.
In plains its elevation handicap is not an issue.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 09 Sep 2020 04:51

DRDO or BEL never got full TOT for Flycatcher. Nor has it been used in Atulya. Inspired, sure. But not a one on one copy or TOT'ed product. In fact several items were either replaced with local parts or other equivalents indigenized by BEL, DRDO in the original Flycatcher itself.
Similarly all the other TOT agreements - there is always some subsystem missing or component denied or OEM IP which the system integrator can't provide in key areas.

Suryag sir, I get to call you sir, not vice versa. :)
The Sharang is as you said a 130mm replacement - its a 45 cal, upgrade which allows the more capable 155mm shell (greater throw weight) to be used. We have very few 155mm guns still. The original Bofors acquisition + a 100 52 cal, K-9s, the 145x 39 cal, M777s and the 144x 45 cal Dhanush (144 indented as memory serves). So the more 155mm's we get into service, the better. 300 Sharangs will provide a good punch. Its also more cost effective (albeit elevation limited by the original 130mm design so it wont be as capable) than buying a new 155mm gun. Its got good export potential too.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 09 Sep 2020 05:04

vivek_ahuja wrote:
ramana wrote:For the three strike corps as it gives one regiment on tracks. (3x8 guns+ 1x8 reserve)


That seriously does not sound enough, unless it is being used at corps level. I believe in the democratization of artillery: i.e. the ability of junior officers to be able to call for mobile artillery support as needed on the frontlines. At the Corps level, this sounds like one of those front breakthrough type units that will be pulled back to Corps after the initial barrage is done and the attack has broken through the initial frontline.

A regiment sounds powerful, but when you compare it with the size and scale of the Indian armored force and border length, it is difficult to see how effective they could be in small chunks or if concentrated only to one zone.

Also, attrition reserves have to be given consideration...


The K-9s aren't the only game in town. You have Smerch regiments and also Pinaka regiments.


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