Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 53394
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 23 Jul 2019 20:19

Not just me but real experts say that.
Nothing beats momentum.
You get that with weight and velocity.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 53394
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 23 Jul 2019 20:21

AdityaV,
TO add to your list the modern electronic fuze factory by BEL with Israeli collaboration improves the shell burst reliability.
So they would need to fire less number of shells for same end effects.

brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7866
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby brar_w » 23 Jul 2019 20:26

Prem Kumar wrote:Coming to think of it, there is a reason why the IA and IAF are keen on Helina & SANT (besides their anti-tank role). With their 7 Km & 15 Km ranges, our helis can stay comfortably outside the MANPAD range (5 Km) and take out sangars/bunkers at will. If need be, IA"s organic assets can do the job themselves without even bringing in IAF


I think the point was that there is a support cost, and time penalty when calling support in regardless of whether it is IA calling in IA support or seeking IAF assets. These are not like for like comparisons of comparing the cost of Excalibur to a helicopter launched munition. These comparisons would have to factor in the inventory of the latter, how many attack helicopters are required to maintain orbits to support IA's identified need of having excalibur shells (we don't know which target sets they desire this capability for. We also do not know what the assumption is for the cumulative number of targets and neither do we know how the IA plans of dispersing this capability across artillery units) is mixed with other shells in Artillery units and then add the cost of maintaining those orbits and also deploying any munitions from them. Being able to dial in an Excalibur fuse and launch it at 40 or 50 km distance is going to be cheaper than calling in helicopter support and launching a precission guided munition from it. As I said, even rocket artillery (guided MR rounds) are going to face a difficulty matching that cost and even if they do there is the problem of now having to deploy two systems when one could do the job with just a few PG rounds at its disposal. The cost benefit analysis of Excalibur and PGK rounds vs. multiple ground or air launched systems has been done by most operators and plenty chose to maintain both capabilities. Some will just be better and cheaper with your standard artillery. If all one wanted to do was an academic assessment of each and every munition or platform + munition combo one could come up that replaces Artillery across its deployed mission set then the list would be quite substantial. But I think that misses the point - one of tactics and supporting the already deployed units by adding to their lethality and survivability and allowing them to go after new target types more effectively

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 53394
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 23 Jul 2019 22:42

In simpler terms its the total cost to destroy the target and the schedule do do it.


The British always relied on PBI to do the needful in mindless assaults for they had their class structure even in Blighty. Even during World War II when they were fighting with backs to the walls always penny pinch and never go for technology.
Should cut the UK staff/defence college cord.

jaysimha
BRFite
Posts: 1055
Joined: 20 Dec 2017 14:30

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby jaysimha » 08 Aug 2019 16:36

came across this,,,, wonder what is the status of all of them..

Image

niran
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5403
Joined: 11 Apr 2007 16:01

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby niran » 09 Aug 2019 08:21

ArjunPandit wrote:^^ramana guru bunkers would have been made in huge no.s by now.
1. Can we ever buy enough excalibur shells/krasnopol?
2. Is there any DRDO project for it..i do remember you mentioning PGK..for it..but can't find that
3. Can we use ATGMs, nag spike for the same purpose? or even Pinaka.

the answer to 3 is no, (except Pinaka) reason is range, even those advocating hawaikopter fires missiles the answer is no.
hawaikopter fired missiles have insufficient charge it is like tree cutting with a kitchen knife besides they need to get close where they can be shot down easily a biiiiig no.
Excalibur rounds from Dhanuah 40kms away is best solution cúrrently. only a spoter need to be sneaked close and currently they have drons satellite AEW hawai jehaj. mucho much better, WRT loss of life.

nam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2580
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby nam » 09 Aug 2019 12:26

Apparently IA has asked for a vertical launched mbrl with IR seeker for LoC fight.

It is actually a great solution to hit bunker and reverse slope artillery position in mountains. For once we are thinking.

JTull
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2651
Joined: 18 Jul 2001 11:31

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby JTull » 09 Aug 2019 14:37

nam wrote:Apparently IA has asked for a vertical launched mbrl with IR seeker for LoC fight.

It is actually a great solution to hit bunker and reverse slope artillery position in mountains. For once we are thinking.


Why ask for seeker on a weapon used for saturation bombing? Expensive solution.

If they need precision of IR seekers then a drone with Helina would be better suited.

Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8108
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 09 Aug 2019 17:44

nam wrote:Apparently IA has asked for a vertical launched mbrl with IR seeker for LoC fight.

It is actually a great solution to hit bunker and reverse slope artillery position in mountains. For once we are thinking.



If what I am understanding is correct then what the Indian army is asking for is NLOS-M. The yhaudies also have a similar concept called jumper.

Requires excellent recon capabilities.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Singha » 09 Aug 2019 18:24

helina will not work - the UAV cannot cross the LOC else manpads will fire on it. without crossing the LOC it cannot have LOS targeting soln on reverse slopes and bunkers on reverse slopes. plunging 155mm artillery fire can have same effect but MBLSs can saturate an area - issue is they are never able to elevate to high angles like a 155 howitzer .... what we need is trajectory shaping of the MLRS round to fire off at 45' , then climb high in a curve and then fall down at a steep angle like a guided missile - so each round instead of pure ballistic flight would have some intelligence to shape its trajectory.
we could start with that, modify Pinaka for it and then work on adding sensors which will make it more expensive.

advantage of shaping trajectory is the pinaka can be far away from LOC and does not have to get close to LOC for a vanilla ballistic high angle shot.

NLOS M adds sensors and loitering for 30m
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XM501_Non ... nch_System

brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7866
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby brar_w » 09 Aug 2019 21:11

Singha wrote:helina will not work - the UAV cannot cross the LOC else manpads will fire on it. without crossing the LOC it cannot have LOS targeting soln on reverse slopes and bunkers on reverse slopes. plunging 155mm artillery fire can have same effect but MBLSs can saturate an area - issue is they are never able to elevate to high angles like a 155 howitzer .... what we need is trajectory shaping of the MLRS round to fire off at 45' , then climb high in a curve and then fall down at a steep angle like a guided missile - so each round instead of pure ballistic flight would have some intelligence to shape its trajectory.
we could start with that, modify Pinaka for it and then work on adding sensors which will make it more expensive.

advantage of shaping trajectory is the pinaka can be far away from LOC and does not have to get close to LOC for a vanilla ballistic high angle shot.

NLOS M adds sensors and loitering for 30m
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XM501_Non ... nch_System


The "LAM" promises a 72 km range. The Excalibur with ERCA exceeds 60 km presently with plans to demonstrate a near 70 km shot in the near future (as early as later this year). The XM115ERAP gets them closer to 100 km so I'm not sure whether solutions like the LAM will be preffered over Artillery when it is available. Of course when you have surveil, find and destroy the loiter of those munitions come into play but that is essentially a separate mission and need and does not overlap with things like the Excalibur or PGK etc. etc.

nam wrote:Apparently IA has asked for a vertical launched mbrl with IR seeker for LoC fight.

It is actually a great solution to hit bunker and reverse slope artillery position in mountains. For once we are thinking.


This is the direction guided mlr are going post GPS/INS tech insertion. It is a natural and logical progression . The US Army is also currently engaged in a 3 year effort to integrate either a combined IIR/MMW seeker, or an IIR only (used in combination with GPS already on board) seeker on the GMLRS-ER variant.
Last edited by brar_w on 09 Aug 2019 22:40, edited 1 time in total.

nam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2580
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby nam » 09 Aug 2019 21:38

Pratyush wrote:
nam wrote:Apparently IA has asked for a vertical launched mbrl with IR seeker for LoC fight.

It is actually a great solution to hit bunker and reverse slope artillery position in mountains. For once we are thinking.



If what I am understanding is correct then what the Indian army is asking for is NLOS-M. The yhaudies also have a similar concept called jumper.

Requires excellent recon capabilities.


A WLR should give the direction and distance of artillery position. Then a IIR rocket should be able to find out targets once it has reached the target area.

The issue with counter battery using artillery rounds is that the round does not know at what height should it explode on reverse slope target.

IIR seeker solves this.

Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8108
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 09 Aug 2019 22:05

NLOS-M takes wlr out of the equation.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7821
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 10 Aug 2019 02:37

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/115 ... 61539?s=20 ---> Bharat Forge's 155 mm/52 calibre Bharat-52 howitzer and the Garuda-105 lightweight mounted gun system have both been cleared for export and are being showcased for this purpose by MoD.

Vips
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2149
Joined: 14 Apr 2017 18:23

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Vips » 11 Aug 2019 03:17

Will be very interesting to see which country they are able to sell it first. Bharat Forge will have to offer a very special deal to convince someone to buy an unproven system/s from a company which is itself new (literally) in the field.
Last edited by Vips on 11 Aug 2019 20:17, edited 1 time in total.

manjgu
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2099
Joined: 11 Aug 2006 10:33

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby manjgu » 11 Aug 2019 10:26

this sums all that is wrong with indian defence thinking... u have to first induct the system in our own arsenal to inspire confidence in potential buyers ( we are not a country with countless proven system to inspire confidence in potential buyers). still its a good beginning. the price+capabilities combo should be a very attractive for customers.

srai
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4288
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby srai » 12 Aug 2019 03:15

Vips wrote:Will be very interesting to see which country they are able to sell it first. Bharat Forge will have to offer a very special deal to convince someone to buy an unproven system/s from a company which is itself new (literally) in the field.

To succeed in the arms export, it is more about strategic muscle and less about individual companies and their products. More powerful a nation, the more of its wares it can sell to lesser ones. Offer of alliances, protection, interoperability, line of credit, investment, ToT, license production etc constitute a winning formula.

Beyond strategic, proven systems (i.e. winning wartime action) with active production for the home country (and others) is obviously a big plus.

dinesh_kimar
BRFite
Posts: 359
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby dinesh_kimar » 24 Aug 2019 18:51

I have heard from some folk that few ATAGS has been inducted into the IA.

Apparently being built in 2 plants by Kalyani (60% of total guns) and Tata Power (40%).

Barrel : Kalyani 100%

The breech is fully localised , built by both plants. Total order greater than 100 I believe.

I sincerely hope that Dhanush orders are not reduced to make way for ATAGS.

Firm commitment was only 114 Dhanush, and 300 follow on is still hanging in the air.

My wishlist is let them procure 600-800 Dhanush, to replace Bofors and 130 mm.

I like Dhanush for its stable technology, assured supply chain, all obstacles removed, built in batches of 8-9 by OFB. It won't go wrong.

ATAGS might need silver bullets, lot of foreign tech.

Gyan
BRFite
Posts: 1246
Joined: 26 Aug 2016 19:14

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Gyan » 24 Aug 2019 19:26

Incorrect. Order for only 2 additional ATAGS has been given for testing

Gyan
BRFite
Posts: 1246
Joined: 26 Aug 2016 19:14

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Gyan » 24 Aug 2019 19:31

Our understanding of MBRL is outdated. It WAS an Corps level Area weapon because of cost & inaccuracy. Around 4%-8% of range

Now at 50km, even unguided MRBL are 1%-2% of range, with INS 100m, GPS+INS 25m And IR guided with datalink potentially 5m

Using costly guided or PGM shells with shorter range & smaller warhead makes no sense.

Gyan
BRFite
Posts: 1246
Joined: 26 Aug 2016 19:14

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Gyan » 24 Aug 2019 19:33

Unfortunately, OFB is running only 10-15 years late in enhancing production of Pinaka rockets as they did not issue requisite tenders for machinery & civil works. Great going or my theory ....Smerch lobby?

darshhan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2493
Joined: 12 Dec 2008 11:52

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby darshhan » 25 Aug 2019 11:10

Gyan wrote:Unfortunately, OFB is running only 10-15 years late in enhancing production of Pinaka rockets as they did not issue requisite tenders for machinery & civil works. Great going or my theory ....Smerch lobby?


Nope. OFB has degraded to such an extent that now it is bad on its own. No foreign or import lobbies required to disrupt its already bad performance.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20107
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Philip » 25 Aug 2019 11:59

There was a recent report yhat Ru has developed an improved MBRL based upon SMERCH, but with more accurate longer- ranged rounds equipped with a variety of PG warheads. No idea if our Pinaka ER is fully developed or inducted.We'll be needing it asap esp. if Paki terror resurfaces and the balloon goes up.

rohitvats
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7688
Joined: 08 Sep 2005 18:24
Location: Jatland

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 26 Aug 2019 00:33

Gyan wrote:Our understanding of MBRL is outdated. It WAS an Corps level Area weapon because of cost & inaccuracy. Around 4%-8% of range. Now at 50km, even unguided MRBL are 1%-2% of range, with INS 100m, GPS+INS 25m And IR guided with datalink potentially 5m. Using costly guided or PGM shells with shorter range & smaller warhead makes no sense.


Why don't you write a White Paper on the subject and sent it to Army HQ? I'm sure they'll like to learn from you vast knowledge on the subject.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 53394
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 27 Aug 2019 08:57


ArjunPandit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2922
Joined: 29 Mar 2017 06:37

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ArjunPandit » 19 Sep 2019 03:12

https://thediplomat.com/2019/04/indias- ... howitzers/
ramana guru, are we on track for the delivery of arty guns? 6 were delivered in april that means 30 for rest of the year..roughly 4 per month afterwards...
i do not find any news of K9 & M777 deliveries too

Snehashis
BRFite
Posts: 198
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Snehashis » 17 Oct 2019 00:59

Saurav Jha - Alright, M982 Excalibur Precision Guided 155 mm rounds have arrived from the United States for the Indian Army's Artillery Corps.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1184516430944849920

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 53394
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 17 Oct 2019 03:58

ANI is reporting the same.

ArjunPandit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2922
Joined: 29 Mar 2017 06:37

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ArjunPandit » 17 Oct 2019 04:00

there is a lot of silence on the delivery of guns ..is it business as usual and no news is good news....

Vips
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2149
Joined: 14 Apr 2017 18:23

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Vips » 17 Oct 2019 16:41

The PSU's (sic) may/may not deliver the Dhanush or Sarangs, but you can bet that L&T, Mahindra and Bharat Forge/TATA will be delivering those K 9, M777 and ATAGS(Trial Order) on time or even before time.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18489
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 17 Oct 2019 16:54

Gyan wrote:Unfortunately, OFB is running only 10-15 years late in enhancing production of Pinaka rockets as they did not issue requisite tenders for machinery & civil works. Great going or my theory ....Smerch lobby?


Pinaka production is being set up in pvt sector as well. Thankfully.

Raghunathgb
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 57
Joined: 23 Apr 2019 18:16

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Raghunathgb » 17 Oct 2019 19:54

ArjunPandit wrote:https://thediplomat.com/2019/04/indias-army-receives-first-six-of-114-long-range-dhanush-howitzers/
ramana guru, are we on track for the delivery of arty guns? 6 were delivered in april that means 30 for rest of the year..roughly 4 per month afterwards...
i do not find any news of K9 & M777 deliveries too


By year end OFB is supposed to deliver a total of 18 guns this year which will increase to 36 next year onwards. How many have been delivered apart from first 5 is unknown.

Gyan
BRFite
Posts: 1246
Joined: 26 Aug 2016 19:14

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Gyan » 17 Oct 2019 19:58

No pinaka production in pvt sector. Production of Pinaka launcher is being misread as Pinaka Rocket

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18489
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 17 Oct 2019 20:40

You are mistaken. Use the search function for my previous posts on the matter. Pinaka rockets are composed of various parts, many of the critical items are now in private sector and even assembly is moving there. Launchers is old hat, which went to pvt sector eons ago. OFB inability to make critical ammo being a bottleneck is now well-recognized and corrective steps are being taken. In fact, DRDO even has several other items up for TOT.

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7700
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Indranil » 17 Oct 2019 21:32

Vips wrote:The PSU's (sic) may/may not deliver the Dhanush or Sarangs, but you can bet that L&T, Mahindra and Bharat Forge/TATA will be delivering those K 9, M777 and ATAGS(Trial Order) on time or even before time.

What are you talking of boss. Dhanush is in production after successful trials. Sarang had better than normal results.

K9 as laudable as it is a perfect example of screwdrivergiri.

M777 is pure import.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 53394
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 17 Oct 2019 22:00

Lots of old baggage is biasing our folks comments.
OFB is delivering the Dhanush and Sarangs as we speak.

We are seeing the results everyday on the LOC.

The Dhanush is delivering 6 shells a minute all timed to arrive at same time.
That is like a 600 lb bomb delivered accurately within 30 km of forward edge of battle.
And more effective due to the multiple shells.

IOW in the most hazardous close air support region artillery is coming through.


And the OFB EPDF has cleared trials and is being made in qty.
This is for the 155mm shells.

I know folks don't like half hermit but most of what he is reporting is factual.
he does add a bit of masala.

ArjunPandit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2922
Joined: 29 Mar 2017 06:37

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ArjunPandit » 17 Oct 2019 22:46

ramana wrote:OFB is delivering the Dhanush and Sarangs as we speak.

We are seeing the results everyday on the LOC.

to me this is strong circumstantial evidence but not fully conclusive as it is hard to ascertain that hte damage is done by existing guns or the new guns..even most of news of arty duels is by twitter handles like babaji and others in wolf pack..i have been intermittently searching the news of articles of delivery...

nam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2580
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby nam » 17 Oct 2019 23:18

With the buy of Excalibur and the project to develop Vertical launched, precision MBRL, we seem to have finally taken our attrition warfare on LC more seriously.

With UAV's providing deep recon of terror groups and their movements across LC, IA will now use get to employ deep standoff precision attack.

These PGM will also help in hitting Pak Artillery & camp positions on reverse slopes.

Finally a realization that it is better to kill more Pak soldiers in LC's attrition war, rather than keep bulking up, waiting for the D-day.

fanne
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3070
Joined: 11 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby fanne » 17 Oct 2019 23:28

we have only 300 Excalibur rounds? as poc good, but not enough. And it is going to be costly. I hope DRDO can pull this one, it will be a game changer

pkudva
BRFite
Posts: 162
Joined: 23 Jul 2008 13:57

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby pkudva » 17 Oct 2019 23:44

Indranil wrote:
Vips wrote:The PSU's (sic) may/may not deliver the Dhanush or Sarangs, but you can bet that L&T, Mahindra and Bharat Forge/TATA will be delivering those K 9, M777 and ATAGS(Trial Order) on time or even before time.

What are you talking of boss. Dhanush is in production after successful trials. Sarang had better than normal results.


K9 as laudable as it is a perfect example of screwdrivergiri.

M777 is pure import.


Unless known on the Facts - Terms called Screw Driver/ Imports must not be used.

You may not be aware how much indegenization has been made in these Program. Mere reading some articles will not fetch any dividend.

I am hopeful as time progresses, inroads made by Pvt Sector comes out to Public , only then their contribution would be known.

Note: Dhanush/ Sharang - Production couldn't even match the above Programmes, these 2 were also nothing much reverse Engg for decade.

Lets give due credit to DPSU, OFB and Pvt Sector.


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: sum and 15 guests