Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

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ks_sachin
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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Postby ks_sachin » 15 Aug 2020 14:43

sanjayc wrote:Never-ending user trials, unexpected new demands for modifications / improvements quite late in the development cycle, and rejecting the whole system by citing a problem with some peripheral capability are common strategies used to thwart Indian items. These deliberately created delays are then used as an excuse to go for imports.

Perhaps you have to see the quality of DPSU /!OFB manufactured stuff...

Forget rifles just use their cloth for making your uniform or their shoes...I speak of exp from a while ago but....

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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Postby nandakumar » 15 Aug 2020 14:45

sanjayc wrote:Never-ending user trials, unexpected new demands for modifications / improvements quite late in the development cycle, and rejecting the whole system by citing a problem with some peripheral capability are common strategies used to thwart Indian items. These deliberately created delays are then used as an excuse to go for imports.

I am just curious. Is there any TV talk shows, YouTube discussion involving an armed forces personnel where these points are raised and what has been their response? Including their response to the oft mentioned criticism that they give a free pass on specs when it came to imported items. I raise this point because, a long way back I had a chance to talk to a retired DRDO scientist and I posed a question about Arjun. He said that midway through the development cycle, after perhaps a prototype was produced, the army changed the horsepower rating from 1000 hp to 1500 hp for the engine. This meant that the entire drive train had to change and all consequent changes to the vehicle. Sorry if this had been addressed in the past discussion.

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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Postby Cyrano » 15 Aug 2020 14:48

Rajya Sabha TV has a lot of interesting panel discussions with retired services personnel and defence journalists. Search on YT.

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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Postby Thakur_B » 15 Aug 2020 14:54

nandakumar wrote:
sanjayc wrote:Never-ending user trials, unexpected new demands for modifications / improvements quite late in the development cycle, and rejecting the whole system by citing a problem with some peripheral capability are common strategies used to thwart Indian items. These deliberately created delays are then used as an excuse to go for imports.

I am just curious. Is there any TV talk shows, YouTube discussion involving an armed forces personnel where these points are raised and what has been their response? Including their response to the oft mentioned criticism that they give a free pass on specs when it came to imported items. I raise this point because, a long way back I had a chance to talk to a retired DRDO scientist and I posed a question about Arjun. He said that midway through the development cycle, after perhaps a prototype was produced, the army changed the horsepower rating from 1000 hp to 1500 hp for the engine. This meant that the entire drive train had to change and all consequent changes to the vehicle. Sorry if this had been addressed in the past discussion.


Security scan on RSTV. One of the best shows on defence equipment. Their typical panel is two retired personnel, one DRDO chap and one journalist.

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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Postby ks_sachin » 15 Aug 2020 15:03

Thakur_B wrote:
nandakumar wrote:I am just curious. Is there any TV talk shows, YouTube discussion involving an armed forces personnel where these points are raised and what has been their response? Including their response to the oft mentioned criticism that they give a free pass on specs when it came to imported items. I raise this point because, a long way back I had a chance to talk to a retired DRDO scientist and I posed a question about Arjun. He said that midway through the development cycle, after perhaps a prototype was produced, the army changed the horsepower rating from 1000 hp to 1500 hp for the engine. This meant that the entire drive train had to change and all consequent changes to the vehicle. Sorry if this had been addressed in the past discussion.


Security scan on RSTV. One of the best shows on defence equipment. Their typical panel is two retired personnel, one DRDO chap and one journalist.

The host is an idiot...

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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Postby Kakarat » 15 Aug 2020 15:34

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1294562952629035008
In 20 minutes, we're posting first videos just in of the Light Combat Helicopter on its current deployment in Ladakh. (Used with permission, before you ask!).



Image
Last edited by Kakarat on 15 Aug 2020 15:54, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Postby Thakur_B » 15 Aug 2020 15:34

ks_sachin wrote:
Thakur_B wrote:
Security scan on RSTV. One of the best shows on defence equipment. Their typical panel is two retired personnel, one DRDO chap and one journalist.

The host is an idiot...


He does his best. He doesn't have the luxury of having followed BR for two decades like the rest of us :rotfl:

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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Postby nandakumar » 15 Aug 2020 16:27

Thakur_B wrote:
nandakumar wrote:I am just curious. Is there any TV talk shows, YouTube discussion involving an armed forces personnel where these points are raised and what has been their response? Including their response to the oft mentioned criticism that they give a free pass on specs when it came to imported items. I raise this point because, a long way back I had a chance to talk to a retired DRDO scientist and I posed a question about Arjun. He said that midway through the development cycle, after perhaps a prototype was produced, the army changed the horsepower rating from 1000 hp to 1500 hp for the engine. This meant that the entire drive train had to change and all consequent changes to the vehicle. Sorry if this had been addressed in the past discussion.


Security scan on RSTV. One of the best shows on defence equipment. Their typical panel is two retired personnel, one DRDO chap and one journalist.

Thank you. I will look it up. But just to whet my appetite can you enlighten me about the modus operandi here? After the GSQR is floated, as this former scientist told me, the DRDO gets to say if they can develop/supply it. If they confirm then no one in DAC would put his signature on import. The only way for armed forces to get around it is to cite some new enemy capability warranting a new GSQR and at some point the DRDO gives up. Then the cycle of RFI, RFQ etc. begins. But in a few cases the latter digs its heels in. That is what happened in the case of Arjun. The DRDO had its way. The order for Arjun stayed. But the army had the satisfaction of limiting the order to 128. As he explained it, it all seemed so cynical. But the silver lining, as he put it, is that the institutional mechanism is not all that corroded.

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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Postby sanjayc » 15 Aug 2020 17:49

ks_sachin wrote:
sanjayc wrote:Never-ending user trials, unexpected new demands for modifications / improvements quite late in the development cycle, and rejecting the whole system by citing a problem with some peripheral capability are common strategies used to thwart Indian items. These deliberately created delays are then used as an excuse to go for imports.

Perhaps you have to see the quality of DPSU /!OFB manufactured stuff...

Forget rifles just use their cloth for making your uniform or their shoes...I speak of exp from a while ago but....


Not true of all the products -- Arjun, Helina, Nag not inducted till now. Though I still think American model is best. Government gives requirement, private companies submit designs, best two are shortlisted and money given to build a prototype. The best prototype is chosen and production divided between the two. ATAGS is following the same model I guess
Last edited by sanjayc on 15 Aug 2020 17:59, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Postby ks_sachin » 15 Aug 2020 17:52

sanjayc wrote:
ks_sachin wrote:Perhaps you have to see the quality of DPSU /!OFB manufactured stuff...

Forget rifles just use their cloth for making your uniform or their shoes...I speak of exp from a while ago but....


Not true of all the products -- Arjun, Helina, Nag not inducted till now

But the distrust and mistrust runs very deep...It is almost ingrained from a young offer level...

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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Postby ks_sachin » 15 Aug 2020 17:56

Thakur_B wrote:
ks_sachin wrote:The host is an idiot...


He does his best. He doesn't have the luxury of having followed BR for two decades like the rest of us :rotfl:


Sir that is not good enough.

I have been a journalist and thorough research was drilled into me....

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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Postby fanne » 15 Aug 2020 19:34

We have some 1350 hellfire missiles (market rate is .75 - 1 million of USD) for 22 Apaches. That's a nice holding. If we can have US agree to integrate in to LCH and Rudras, (they have integrated it to other non US helis), it would be a good fast option. This option will be fast, assuming we get US to agree to integrate (if it goes through some lengthy proposal then it will be a slow option). It will be however the costliest but with a very proven missile (with some 850 missiles are fire and forget).
Second option is Spike- We have some versions of this missile. It is 1/3rd the cost of Hellfire and should be fast to integrate (most avionics are Israeli on Rudra and LCH). This could also be fast and cheaper. A similar holding of 1000 missiles will cost 300 million USD approx (not a big money for us)
Third option is Helina/Sant/Dhruvastra - This will be cheapest option. But the missile is not fully ready. This will eventually be the standard fit for 150 LCH produced. We will need some 7500 missiles at least for these (and if you add Rudra) another 2500 of it. Total eventually 10,000 missiles will be produced. This is the slowest option and with all the QC issues, maybe the most unproven and less capable (but we can perhaps keep tinkering it to keep it better).
The situation we are in, we should go for some 300-1000 holding of Spike ER, integrated to both LCH and Rudra. Even if this eats into an eventual order of 10,000 Helina by 1000, it is only effecting 10% of the number. But this gives us a proven capability now.

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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Postby John » 15 Aug 2020 19:46

fanne wrote:We have some 1350 hellfire missiles (market rate is .75 - 1 million of USD) for 22 Apaches.

Not all of them are AGM-114l some of them 114R which are semi active laser guided so they are not fire and forget but they are much cheaper. Not sure if they are easier to integrate.

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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Postby brar_w » 15 Aug 2020 19:49

fanne wrote:We have some 1350 hellfire missiles (market rate is .75 - 1 million of USD) for 22 Apaches.


Don't know what "market rate" means. Foreign sales are controlled so it isn't like the free market and demand and supply determine the current price as would be the case with commercial. Depending upon order size, and the exact type of weapon chosen, the unit cost varies from $45K to $200K based on publicly available and audited budget documents. Unless someone contracts a bespoke, unique weapon via DCS (like the ninja R9X for example), every FMS customer pays a unit cost that the US armed services pay though FMS surcharges may be added which are usually single digit % and added to the cost of the entire package. Even the multi-mode JAGM, at its much lower (LRIP) production rates, has a gross system unit cost that is sub $250K for the US Navy (Army is higher still owning to the mix of things they are buying as they're gearing up to maintain a larger inventory) and currently (FY2020) has an AUR cost that is fast approaching $200K. Also unlike the ballpark estimates in the blog linked below, it is always best to look and seek out AUR unit cost as different customers buy things differently based on their procurement strategy and ultimate goal(for example, if you're gearing up to buy a very large inventory you may be pulling a lot more training rounds, and other equipment upfront..). Gross system and AUR costs are collectively the absolute gold standard in determining *actual* unit cost for a given order year.

One guesstimates contract value from DSCA notifications at one's own peril. It must never be done when accuracy is important.

Here Is What Each Of The Pentagon's Air-Launched Missiles And Bombs Actually Cost


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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Postby darshhan » 15 Aug 2020 19:51

Sant missile will be the gamechanger. With 20 kms range it is almost in spike nlos class and takes standoff capabilities(wrt attack helicopters) to a new level. It is like you got a mini cruise missile. Not just helos but even UAVs can use these missiles with little effort.

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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Postby darshan » 15 Aug 2020 19:59

ks_sachin wrote:
sanjayc wrote:
Not true of all the products -- Arjun, Helina, Nag not inducted till now

But the distrust and mistrust runs very deep...It is almost ingrained from a young offer level...

But have they systematically cataloged and called them out in public? End of the day Indian military is the one who needs to figure out how to get the local product made by hook or crook to protect this country and stop saying that getting weapons developed in house isn't our job. Not acceptable if that's their stand. Decades have gone by. What are their efforts and plans other than we don't trust or that Indian PSUs always provide bad quality products? How much of the information do they make public to shame them? Has Indian military come out in public saying that we need Indian products but not from PSUs as there's no accountability? Has Indian military forced the issue of accountability within the contract terms? For example, ability to take PSUs to court for any lives lost due to bad productions. If the Indian military's solution is to get rid of PSUs, then how have they over decades worked towards that by coming to Indian citizens with the information to force changes?

I am just venting as I compare the scene in India to the one I'm part of. May be they have (I don't follow much and track this). In India, every problem seem to have waited for Modi to arrive and fix. Everyone seems to stick to better gov't is here so it's their job to fix. Do we even know if Indian military has gone to present gov't and given them clear low down example by example? If one were to assume that if Parrikar had figured out issues, then I just fail to believe that he didn't leave detailed notes and guidance for Modi including what BS to not buy at all and which domestic weapons to must put on track to buy.

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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Postby abhik » 15 Aug 2020 20:47

We are around 3 months post sh*t hitting fan, we have around 70 Rudras with no ATGM, we should have gotten the expedited Hellfire (already in service and available in large numbers) integration up and running already. Even a semi active laser guided version would have been massive capability jump compared to no ATGMs at all. I don't see how the Spike ER will come into play in our current border situation.

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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Postby nam » 15 Aug 2020 20:56

Not having ATGM is not the end of the world. In mountains, you will not find hundreds of tanks doing maneuver warfare. There is no space for it. The rockets will be effective against light tanks like Type 15, with light armor on the top. We have enough AH64 to deal with major tank offensive.

Majority of the fights will be infantry driven. Against them there rockets and guns count. Moreover A2A against enemy attack choppers. Choppers can provide rapid response tactical air support,

So it is important to have numbers in air, even with rockets, gun and A2A.

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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Postby Kakarat » 15 Aug 2020 21:03

John wrote:
fanne wrote:We have some 1350 hellfire missiles (market rate is .75 - 1 million of USD) for 22 Apaches.

Not all of them are AGM-114l some of them 114R which are semi active laser guided so they are not fire and forget but they are much cheaper. Not sure if they are easier to integrate.


If I am right 812 AGM-114L and 542 AGM-114R

As far as the hardware interface is concerned HAL should be able to integrate a launcher without issue since they already carry a western rocket launcher, but there will be work on the software side & carriage trials

They will also have to get the 2 missile launcher as i doubt LCH can carry a 4 missile launcher

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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Postby ks_sachin » 15 Aug 2020 21:17

darshan wrote:
ks_sachin wrote:But the distrust and mistrust runs very deep...It is almost ingrained from a young offer level...

But have they systematically cataloged and called them out in public? End of the day Indian military is the one who needs to figure out how to get the local product made by hook or crook to protect this country and stop saying that getting weapons developed in house isn't our job. Not acceptable if that's their stand. Decades have gone by. What are their efforts and plans other than we don't trust or that Indian PSUs always provide bad quality products? How much of the information do they make public to shame them? Has Indian military come out in public saying that we need Indian products but not from PSUs as there's no accountability? Has Indian military forced the issue of accountability within the contract terms? For example, ability to take PSUs to court for any lives lost due to bad productions. If the Indian military's solution is to get rid of PSUs, then how have they over decades worked towards that by coming to Indian citizens with the information to force changes?

I am just venting as I compare the scene in India to the one I'm part of. May be they have (I don't follow much and track this). In India, every problem seem to have waited for Modi to arrive and fix. Everyone seems to stick to better gov't is here so it's their job to fix. Do we even know if Indian military has gone to present gov't and given them clear low down example by example? If one were to assume that if Parrikar had figured out issues, then I just fail to believe that he didn't leave detailed notes and guidance for Modi including what BS to not buy at all and which domestic weapons to must put on track to buy.

Oh wow...

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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Postby Anujan » 15 Aug 2020 21:56

ks_sachin wrote:
Thakur_B wrote:
Security scan on RSTV. One of the best shows on defence equipment. Their typical panel is two retired personnel, one DRDO chap and one journalist.

The host is an idiot...


The host is actually not that bad. Many talk show hosts make the talk show about themselves, asking "intelligent questions" to show off how much they know. This host actually lets the other people talk.

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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Postby rohitvats » 15 Aug 2020 22:29

nam wrote:Not having ATGM is not the end of the world. In mountains, you will not find hundreds of tanks doing maneuver warfare. There is no space for it. The rockets will be effective against light tanks like Type 15, with light armor on the top. We have enough AH64 to deal with major tank offensive <SNIP>


As per news reports, there are two mechanized/motorized infantry divisions facing eastern Ladakh. Other two divisions under Xinjiang Military District are also mechanized.

So, in your wisdom, how many tanks and IFV + APC we're facing, and could face, in eastern Ladakh? And how many Apaches do we have and how many of them are employed in this theater?

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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Postby nam » 15 Aug 2020 23:27

rohitvats wrote:As per news reports, there are two mechanized/motorized infantry divisions facing eastern Ladakh. Other two divisions under Xinjiang Military District are also mechanized.

So, in your wisdom, how many tanks and IFV + APC we're facing, and could face, in eastern Ladakh? And how many Apaches do we have and how many of them are employed in this theater?


There might be 200, 300 or 1000 tanks & APC, but how many areas can such an armor force be employed? 2? 5? The sectors are well known. It is obvious that you employ infantry & BMP based ATGM in these sector. Not to mention artillery, T72,T90 & airpower. Duly supported by AH64.

I have no claims stating that attack choppers with ATGM are the only solution for counter armor ops. Be it 20 or 200. No matter the numbers, PLA will gladly saturate their flights with manpads & SRSAM.

Rudra & LCH will be able to provide air support against every PLA vehicle other than heavy armor like Type 96/99. There is no reason to claim Rudra/LCH are useless, because they are missing an ATGM.

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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Postby sankum » 16 Aug 2020 00:15

Kakarat wrote:
They will also have to get the 2 missile launcher as i doubt LCH can carry a 4 missile launcher


LCH can carry 4 missile launcher on inner wing station but in this configuration it will carry ATAM on outer wing station.

External payload weight = 4*170+ 2*55=790 kg.

170 kg is weight of twin druvastra launcher with missiles. 55kg is weight of twin mistral aam launcher with missiles.

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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Postby Kakarat » 16 Aug 2020 01:59

sankum wrote:
Kakarat wrote:
They will also have to get the 2 missile launcher as i doubt LCH can carry a 4 missile launcher


LCH can carry 4 missile launcher on inner wing station but in this configuration it will carry ATAM on outer wing station.

External payload weight = 4*170+ 2*55=790 kg.

170 kg is weight of twin druvastra launcher with missiles. 55kg is weight of twin mistral aam launcher with missiles.


LCH has only 4 stations and it has always mentioned to carry only 8 ATGM of helina type in pure anti armor roll also I have never seen a 4 missile Dhruvastra launcher. I never understood why there is no 4 missile Dhruvastra launcher as it will be with in LCH payload capacity of 700Kg, maybe it exceeds the individual station capability. I remember for Pars 3 a twin launcher was to be developed for LCH

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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Postby sankum » 16 Aug 2020 10:07

https://www.defexpo.gov.in/assets/dpsu/ ... oucher.pdf

The configuration I am talking about is there in official brochure of LCH from defexpo website.

Rakesh,kindly put the official LCH brochure link in the first post. Images can be taken from the brochure

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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Postby sankum » 16 Aug 2020 10:31

This is based on my understanding.

According to news reports the empty weight of LCH is 2800kg. MTOW is 5800kg and maximum external payload is 1500kg.

2800kg empty weight+ 1100kg fuel+ 200 kg cannon ammo and other + 200kg 2* pilot+ 1500 kg external payload= 5800kg.

From the above brochure the MTOW of ALH is restricted to 4500kg for 6500m service ceiling .

With required ammunition the landing altitude of LCH is 4500m from the brochure. Thus the external payload restriction to 700kg and MTOW of 5000kg.

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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Postby sankum » 16 Aug 2020 11:52

My estimate is the inner wing station payload capacity is 500kg and outer wing station payload capacity is 250 kg.
Indranil said he will ask a friend about it. It should not be a restricted data.

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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Postby Kakarat » 16 Aug 2020 12:43

My understanding is purely based on the payload that LCH has been flying with based on the the photographs available. the heaviest i have seen is 4x12 tube 70mm rockets (pod 31kg + 10 to 12kg per rocket). I also have doubted that LCH is capable of only 700kg even in plains but it has always been the 12 tube launcher & not the 19 tube though its available.

Thank you for the link but its not opening, the site is down

Image

May be Hari Nair sir can throw some light

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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Postby sankum » 16 Aug 2020 12:52

The link is working in my mobile. You will download the brochure. Search in google if you are on your computer.

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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Postby sankum » 16 Aug 2020 12:56

There is image of LCH with external fuel tanks on inner wing stations which I estimated to be be 500 litres so that its weight is roughly 450 kg.
JayS estimated it to be in 400 litre plus range. While Indranil was estimating it to be lower as he was putting the inner wing payload capacity at 250kg.

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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Postby sankum » 16 Aug 2020 13:01

If it carries 1500 kg external payload maybe it's maneuverability is severely restricted.

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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Postby Anujan » 16 Aug 2020 13:02

Image

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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Postby Kakarat » 16 Aug 2020 13:33

sankum wrote:There is image of LCH with external fuel tanks on inner wing stations which I estimated to be be 500 litres so that its weight is roughly 450 kg.
JayS estimated it to be in 400 litre plus range. While Indranil was estimating it to be lower as he was putting the inner wing payload capacity at 250kg.


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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Postby sankum » 16 Aug 2020 18:14

From the brochure Rudra maximum external payload capacity is 900kg.

Each weapon station can be expected to be rated at 225 kg capacity.

LCH external payload will definitely be higher.

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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Postby Indranil » 17 Aug 2020 05:40

My theory is that it is the tank from Kiran (180 kg) or IJT (235 kg) or Hawk (470 kg). I believe the tank is from Kiran. May be Nair sahab can clarify.

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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Postby sankum » 17 Aug 2020 11:44

Eurocopter Tiger carries 350 litre(280 kg fuel) EFT. Same likely for LCH.

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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Postby Rakesh » 19 Aug 2020 02:38

Drag & Drop picture into new window for FULL size. This one is a keeper. She is a wallpaper!!!

https://twitter.com/KSingh_1469/status/ ... 69345?s=20 ---> TD-3 (prototype 3) of the HAL Light Combat Helicopter.

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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Postby Rakesh » 19 Aug 2020 20:49

Light Combat Helicopter Deployed In Ladakh


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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Postby sankum » 19 Aug 2020 21:08

The LCH in ladakh is operating with only 450kg external payload


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