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D Roy wrote:It is not inconceivable that Mig would have sold them them the wind tunnel studies for the Mig 1.44. And nothing has to be very "secret" about that given the state Mikoyan was in..
Well they simply copied what is available out there and known to work , if Mig would have sold any design to them there would be some news on this from the Russian side.
I think its their own effort they just borrowed ideas from many sources out there including their own work on J-10.
Mig-1.44 was just a experimental prototype that just flew few times and the real Mig-.142 that the prototype was suppose to feed never saw light of the day , there are many fan art out there claiming this is the Mig much like there was many which claimed this was PAK-FA.
so the tail bulb would be explained a brake parachute housing going by Shiv's Mig pic.
the canards look longer and slimmer to me than the chunky and short ones in the speculative top view...more like the J-10/Mig canards than EF chopped canards.
Singha wrote:btw was there ever any public acknowledgement from IAI or Israel Govt that the Lavi design was officially sold to PRC for the J-10 project?
No there is none but there is a belief that IAI engineers helped in J-10 development ( the chinese would deny that ) but pressure from US forced Israel to back out at a latter date but then by then the chinese learnt what they had to , probably one of the key reason J-10 was kept secret for a long time even post induction compared to J-20 being shown even before first flight
I think in that case we are unlikely to see any official or unofficial news from Russia about tech transfers from Mig, just as help from Rubin for submarine progs is not acknowledged....Batman would come down like a ton of bricks on anyone who stepped out of line....but maybe India(GOI) was already informed of these developments both as a faithful 'all-lie' and to put pressure on us to sign up for the Pakfa deal.
if you recall earlier, India was reportedly more interested in some kind of single seater stealth design from Mikoyan but later we shifted quietly into the 2 seater pakfa camp.
I believe there is a difference and some similarities between the two Mig-1.44 and J-20 .
For one Mig-1.44 has its wing which is low mounted on fuselage and canards mounted ahead and above just behind the cockpit , for J-20 the wings are high mounted and canard are aligned with and much closer to the main wings.
The only similarities I can see is the Tail and Ventral fins looks similar but canted , Mig-1.44 has more straight ventral fins.
The intake and front portion of the fuselage are more F-22/JSFish.
The plan form of the wings is difficult to make out from the grainy pictures , we need a better view and top view and clear image.
The J-20 is certainly very beefy and most likely it has longer persistance.
All in all this looks like a Chinese Design with many borrowed ideas from Mig , F-22 and JSF while they have experience with Canard wings , it didnt copy any single design out there but tried borrow bits and parts from every thing.
Its certainly a new design with proven borrrowed ideas something the chinese can do it well and they do not need to innovate much.
Infact the more I look at the frontal view , the more it seems to me this is more F-22ish type design with boxy fuselage and similar internal weapons bay arrangement , a far cry from the very unstealthy Mig-1.44
This is a "Capability Surprise" , its being shown in the same year albeit end of it in which PAK-FA flew and most likely will end in service or IOC 2 years after PAK-FA.
Overall the plane looks OK to me. Not a copy of anything in particular and not an overambitious piece created for propaganda and seeking admiration/praise - but a perfectly realistic design knowing what we expect Chinese capability to be. I would say "Good show" to the Chinese who have responded admirably to taunts and provided interesting photographs.
The only concession made for propaganda here is the PLA logo and maybe the black paint.
ya they have not fallen for the fake goalposts set by the americans - the "match the f22 (and its lavish opex budget) gorilla trap" the Shiv Tsu 'pragmatic' philosophy
btw could someone kindly mail a fresh box of white dhotis from pondy bazar chennai to a australian defence analyst known for his alarmist indo-chinese invasion reports?
he must have barricaded himself into a bunker and sending out mayday on radio for the f22
by the way , no matter how funny we find him sometimes, he does put up some good stuff every now and then.
. It follows the Mig 1.44 with it's shortcomings improved upon. The stealth shaping is what makes people think it is like the F-22 and it is likely that help in that department has come from other quarters.
The planform is the same with stealth shaping with a chined forebody etc. The forward fuselage shaping is what you will find on everything "stealthy".
Last edited by D Roy on 29 Dec 2010 09:18, edited 3 times in total.
wing looks like a cropped delta. with the wheels going into the fuselage behind the intake, the Y-duct and DSI bump should provide full RCS hiding for engines imo. its definitely as large as the pakfa if not bigger. with flight test and FCS changes they will likely eliminate the ventral fins later.
Indeed its not a revolutionary or innovative design but they did something which was within their reach.
The surprise factor is how soon they did it , even the intel report in US as mentioned in few news paper put 2018 as a date when Chinese would fly their FGFA , well just shows how reliable US intel can be like Saddam Hussian WMD they couldnt figure out this early development.
isnt that a oxymoron ? sher khan has a set of preconceived ideas and hears only what his frequency filtered stealthy earhorns permit to pass....just follow some fora like f-16.net and militaryphotos.net .... without a scrap of details they will soon be bashing this bird and paying homage to the One True God - the F22
Last edited by Singha on 29 Dec 2010 09:36, edited 1 time in total.
Amrikies stopped the F-22 orders at a very wrong time. T-50 and now J-XX. with these in the market, time for teen-fighters will be over by the end of this decade.
D Roy wrote:It follows the Mig 1.44 with it's shortcomings improved upon. The stealth shaping is what makes people think it is like the F-22 and it is likely that help in that department has come from other quarters.
The planform is the same with stealth shaping with a chined forebody etc. The forward fuselage shaping is what you will find on everything "stealthy".
Yeah right and this is just a follow to Mig-1.44 studies of 2000-2004 that some how no body except you claim and the chinese was either gifted or paid for or stole it from Russia
I am yet to hear from you what follow on studies Mikyon did that something only you seem to be aware of
Last edited by Austin on 29 Dec 2010 09:52, edited 1 time in total.
Singha wrote:isnt that a oxymoron ? sher khan has a set of preconceived ideas and hears only what his frequency filtered stealthy earhorns permit to pass....just follow some fora like f-16.net and militaryphotos.net .... without a scrap of details they will soon be bashing this bird and paying homage to the One True God - the F22
Very true and well said
I remember reading an ex-KGB guys book ,where he mentioned that for the KGB the most difficult country to obtain intel on was China ... probably getting a good intel on China is difficult or they could have good CI.
Nobody else? The follow on studies are well known to lot's of people and you'll find them on a website that you often visit.( a place where you'll find posters with handles such as Flateric, paralay etc)
You started by saying that it is "nothing" like the Mig 1.44 which is patently false as any analysis would show.
You don't know about it. that's another thing.
So lets not talk about credibility.
And I'll just add something. I have been in the "unbuilt projects" space for a long time posting under different handles.
Yeah every thing you see on J-20 that resembles Mig design is some evil Russian conspiracy against the dhoti shivering Yindoos to extract more money and every thing that resembles the F-22 and JSF on the J-20 is some happy and lucky coincidence or just what stealth is suppose to be.
You do not have to worry about my credibility , I did not ask any one here to prove i am credible or not , I tried to do some objective analysis of what J-20 looks like and why I think this is a new design with many borrowed ideas.
Mig design is some evil Russian conspiracy against the dhoti shivering Yindoos to extract more money
This is exactly something that I did not say. Instead I talked about industrial partnerships which the cash strapped west and russia are both "willing" to do. With us and Chicom.
It borrows most heavily from the Mig 1.44. But I have been saying it again and again and again if you bothered to read my posts that it may have yamrikhan inputs in it on the stealth side.
.
Last edited by D Roy on 29 Dec 2010 10:17, edited 1 time in total.
The tailfin is definitely all moving. That much is clear from the earliest photo taken from the musharraf side - the left tailfin is clearly seen all moving and deflected.
Takes influences from the MiG 1.44 quite clearly and there is nothing quite so impressive about the design. Seems extremely large and if I might say so, very ugly too. The side view is almost in some way reminescent of the Su-7 with a long fuselage that seems of almost similar cross section. The F-22, PAK-FA and the AMCA all look far far better looking than this abomination. I'm frankly unimpressed with this design. Maybe it'll just be a prototype and they'll refine this design further. And our Russkie friends on the one hand take our money for an FGFA and on the other hand provide 117S engines to the Chinese to power this?
This is pretty long one comparable to YF-23 and PAKFA; definitely not F-35-ish
Err.. As of now all I see is a dabba that can fly IF it is powered by a suitable engine.
But what about the Engine ? The Chinese despite pouring money into it have not been able to field a SINGLE high performance engine!
A plane of that size and weight class, powered by a SU-30 type engine copied /reverse engineered by the Chinese is a dead on arrival duck. It might be stealthy alright, but definitely not have the kinematic performance of the Amir Khan planes.
As I had already explained to Grand Mullah Poobah Enqyoob-ud-Din-e-Gas Turbine.
We have Nihon Jin, Chini Jin and Yindoo Jin. But NO YINJIN
Last edited by vina on 29 Dec 2010 10:39, edited 1 time in total.
1) If you look closely, you can see the serrated edges of the front landing gear doors.
2) You can now clearly see the markings such as 2001 and that the red star on the vertical stabilizers is the Chinese "August 1st" one and not the Russian one.
3) It does seem like the main wings are "sloped" backwards, rather than being straightforward deltas.
As for what this aircraft resembles, IMO it has too many differences with any single design to be called a modified or stealthified such and such. Also, the size of the thing is big, but I don't think it's unusually large as some people think it is. Judging by the support truck parked next to it in one of the previous pictures, which is ubiquitous in photos of Chinese planes, the JXX should be about 19-20 meters long. Pretty standard for a 5th gen fighter.
The tailfin is definitely all moving. That much is clear from the earliest photo taken from the musharraf side - the left tailfin is clearly seen all moving and deflected.
I mean the entire fin , its an all moving one like PAK-FA but it is huge like F-22
DavidD wrote:As for what this aircraft resembles, IMO it has too many differences with any single design to be called a modified or stealthified such and such. Also, the size of the thing is big, but I don't think it's unusually large as some people think it is. Judging by the support truck parked next to it in one of the previous pictures, which is ubiquitous in photos of Chinese planes, the JXX should be about 19-20 meters long. Pretty standard for a 5th gen fighter.
Indeed it does not resembles any one type and I agree with Vina to have a good kinematic performance you need one great engine atleast in a thrust class of 10:1, hey but JSF wala says aircraft need not manouver the missile does.
It would all boil down to what PLAAF asked for and what did they get in return matched their expectations , J-20 does not have to be as stealthy as F-22 or as manouverable as PAK-FA but should just stand true to PLAAF requirenments , something we may never know.
the Shiv Tsu 'pragmatic' philosophy 
sher khan has a set of preconceived ideas and hears only what his frequency filtered stealthy earhorns permit to pass....just follow some fora like f-16.net and militaryphotos.net .... without a scrap of details they will soon be bashing this bird and paying homage to the One True God - the F22
