Internal Security Watch

[brihaspati]

We had been talking often about distinguishing Gujarat from ditches.

[ramana]

Soon Diggy will start seeing Hindutva inside INC itself. I think the guy has gone Islamist and is separating/rejecting the others and will start divorce/isolation.

Baikul's model in Pak thread.

Baikul please add your sociological model to the definitions thread.

It explains Islamists, Fake Secular and Commies too!

[Aditya_V]

UKstan or denmark or norway or netherland will be glad to extend help one expects.

No way will they do this, these people are useful to them only when they are in India. They may agree to sponsorship and citizenship to Mrs. Sen daughters but never for her and her husband. thier duty is to be a thorn in India's flesh. For. eg., M.F Hussain, only when it became totally useless did they give him foreign citizenship.

[somnath]

Soon Diggy will start seeing Hindutva inside INC itself. I think the guy has gone Islamist and is separating/rejecting the others and will start divorce/isolation

Its very simplistic to think of people, politicians especialy in ideological terms...Ideology for politicians is as important as its ability to generate votes...Digvijay Singh is not turning Islamist or anything else..He is simply trying to recapture Congress's lost ground in UP, and northern India in general..the grand congress coalition in the good old days comprised of Dalits/ST, muslims and brahmins (offshoots of that are Chimanbhai patel's KHAM in Gujarat)...Of this, dalits/ST has been almost irretrievably lost to Mayawati..Muslims over the years veered to the Yadav chieftains and brahmins to the BJP...With the weakening of both Mulayam and BJP, congress feels that it has a chance of rebuilding the grand coalition..The only two sections that tend to vote en masse in a region are dalits and muslims...So if Congress can endear itself (again) to the muslims, it suddenly positions itself as an attractive alternative in UP for voterss fed up with Mayawati and Mulayam...

Digivjay is on that game, pure and simple..Fact is that he has been partially successful - UP delivered 20 seats to the congress last time, at least 10 more than the most optimistic estimate...He is now going for the jugular...He is being true to his form as a politician...

[Arjun]

Its very simplistic to think of people, politicians especialy in ideological terms...Ideology for politicians is as important as its ability to generate votes...Digvijay Singh is not turning Islamist or anything else..He is simply trying to recapture Congress's lost ground in UP, and northern India in general..the grand congress coalition in the good old days comprised of Dalits/ST, muslims and brahmins (offshoots of that are Chimanbhai patel's KHAM in Gujarat)...Of this, dalits/ST has been almost irretrievably lost to Mayawati..Muslims over the years veered to the Yadav chieftains and brahmins to the BJP...With the weakening of both Mulayam and BJP, congress feels that it has a chance of rebuilding the grand coalition..The only two sections that tend to vote en masse in a region are dalits and muslims...So if Congress can endear itself (again) to the muslims, it suddenly positions itself as an attractive alternative in UP for voterss fed up with Mayawati and Mulayam...

Digivjay is on that game, pure and simple..Fact is that he has been partially successful - UP delivered 20 seats to the congress last time, at least 10 more than the most optimistic estimate...He is now going for the jugular...He is being true to his form as a politician...

A non-judgemental whitewashing of Doggy's behavior that will not fly....This kind of analysis further sets a dangerous precedent of hiding a communal and divisive agenda behind fancy acronyms.

Doggy needs to be called out on his communal game, one that is deeply antithetical to India's larger interests and global positioning. And if he is doing this as a purely cynical political exercise the likes of which no equivalent democracy is ever likely to tolerate - and not due to ideological reasons , that makes him (and the INC, since they have not distanced themselves from him) all the more dangerous to the nation.

[somnath]

A non-judgemental whitewashing of Doggy's behavior that will not fly....This kind of analysis further sets a dangerous precedent of hiding a communal and divisive agenda behind fancy acronyms.

Most politicians have used communitarian rhetoric to further their cases..Digvijay Singh is hardly the first, and wont be the last..Indira Gandhi (Sikhs, Bhindrawala), Rajiv Gandhi (Sikh riots, Babri MAsjid, Shah Bano), LKA (Rath Yatra), Narendra Modi (gujarat riots), VP Singh (Mandal), Mayawati (dalits)......the list will cover every single politician you know...Seen from a contemporary context, each one of them had the potential of seriously setting India back...But somehow they dont, partly because most people see through the game and dont get overly bothered, and partly because the politician themselves know the game to act differently while making policy to while mouthing slogans...

[Sanku]

Ah equal equal, how predictable. The 4 step spin cycle.

[abhishek_sharma]

.Seen from a contemporary context, each one of them had the potential of seriously setting India back...But somehow they dont, ...

Really?

[Arjun]

Most politicians have used communitarian rhetoric to further their cases..Digvijay Singh is hardly the first, and wont be the last..Indira Gandhi (Sikhs, Bhindrawala), Rajiv Gandhi (Sikh riots, Babri MAsjid, Shah Bano), LKA (Rath Yatra), Narendra Modi (gujarat riots), VP Singh (Mandal), Mayawati (dalits)......the list will cover every single politician you know...Seen from a contemporary context, each one of them had the potential of seriously setting India back...But somehow they dont, partly because most people see through the game and dont get overly bothered, and partly because the politician themselves know the game to act differently while making policy to while mouthing slogans...

Somnath, by repeatedly trying to justify Doggy's idiocy as par for the course - I am afraid you and folks of your ilk show very poor grasp of the danger that he represents to the country. I can only infer that you are either living in some delusionary world or are an INC shill infected with the same dangerously cynical attitude of playing a great 'game'.

1) The politicians you compare with have pushed existing communitarian themes when it suited them...but Doggy is the first and only one to take this to a dangerous new level where he is ostensibly currying favor with one community by consistently running down another community based on the manufacture of a new theme ('Hindutva terror as the biggest threat to the country') that never existed earlier. Please note the words I have used: (a) consistently (b) running down another community and (c) manufacture of a new theme that has never existed earlier.

2) By giving credence to the theory of 26/11 being an RSS /CIA conspiracy - not only is he refusing to acknowledge the legitimate emotions of a nation scarred by the single biggest humiliation suffered as a result of overseas actors - he is well on his way to put a spoke on the retribution justice of Kasab that the nation anxiously awaits. Can you point me to any other comparisons either in India or internationally where ruling party politician statements have had equivalent international implications?

3) Further because the community he is trying to run down is the majority community, the more he plays on his theme of Hindutva terror, the more negative the international perception of India as a country - which obviously can have huge strategic and economic implications. I take it from some of your writings that you claim to have some knowledge of the financial world - let me know if you disagree with me on this.

4) To put this in international context....do you believe the US would have ever come anywhere close to tolerating a leading Democrat politician giving credence to a claim that 9/11 was a Christian right-wing conspiracy? Not only would the US have never tolerated such an attitude (I would only attribute this to a higher level of belief in moral absolutes out there), its international reputation would have absolutely gone down the toilet sink were this ever to happen.

5) You claim that 'politicians themselves know how to act differently while making policy to while mouthing slogans'....Have you had the chance to follow the Gandhi scion's foot-in-mouth statement leaked on Wikileaks? Do you think he was mouthing a slogan and why? Clearly the INC truly believes as policy the low-IQ theory that 'majority communalism is worse than minority communalism'. Would you also subscribe to this as policy?

[somnath]

^^^Arjun,

I wasnt justifying the content of what Digvijay Singh said, only laying down the context..

But really, what should concern the enlightened citizenry is not the soundbytes, but actual policy-making...The BJP ran a decade-long agitation taking off on a Congress-inspired mythological non-issue, and rode that wave to power..Did they do anything about it when they were in power? In their frst 13-day govt, ABV considered a nuke test, but not a bhavya mandir in ayodhya...Shows where priorities lie for the politicians when in power...Similarly, Digvijay Singh can say what he wants, but does that impact decision-making among real decision-makers? And Diggy raja is not even a policy-maker, even if he has delusions of the same..Just because he mouths these inanities, does it prevent the NIA from going after Madhani?

Ditto for the princeling...He can get vicarious pleasures out of the decision on Niyamgiri (which should have been done in the first place anyways), but he doesnt impact real policy in any way..Even the US ambassador didnt take him seriously, if you read the entire Wikileaks piece aroud the issue..

The inanities need to be laid bare, and the media here does that very well...But to conclude that just because Digvijay Singh said that Karkare was under threat from hindu groups suddenly India's stature goes down is stretching the point...India's international stature is a function of a single, and only a single factor, its economic heft...As long as that is in place, Diggy raja's soundbytes dont even enter discussions in board rooms and investor presentations...

There is however an internal security angle to such statements, as they can incite emotions...However to clamp down on Diggy raja (or Rahul Gandhi) alone will then not be enough, you would need to clamp down on a lot of politicians (tilak, tarazu aur talwar, inko maaro joote chaar - any less volatile? Used by BSP for 2 decades and more)...The only way to deal with it would be through an enlightened citizenry, and increasingly Indians, powered by the new-found economic confidence are looking through it...

JMT....

[Arjun]

But really, what should concern the enlightened citizenry is not the soundbytes, but actual policy-making...

What should also concern enlightened citizenry is soundbytes that negatively impact India's strategic interests

India's international stature is a function of a single, and only a single factor, its economic heft...

And India's economic heft is among other things, also a function of its 'soft power'...which repeated Goebbelsian statements have the power of impacting.

To give you just one example - consider the $70 Bn software outsourcing / BPO industry that accounts for 25% of India's exports today. While India's #1 position is largely due to the expertise of its entrepreneurs and workers, it is also due to the soft power and values associated with India, that provides comfort to the largely Christian Western economies to outsource to the country. To put it slightly more crudely, in today's environment - a largely Muslim country could never have hoped to reach the same position even if Muslim nations somehow developed the knowledge and entrepreneurial strengths to compete; and conversely if India had been Christian (without affecting the quality of manpower and entrepreneurs) it would have been a larger industry. Any change to India's soft power and image has the potential of impacting this dynamic.

[Raghavendra]

The BJP ran a decade-long agitation taking off on a Congress-inspired mythological non-issue, and rode that wave
to power..

Ram mandir at Ayodhya is an important place of worship for devout sanatan dharmis, some non-believers worshipping other gods like marx, mao fail to understand this simple fact since their type of worship is different

These people believe in totalitarian ideology of communism and so attack our gods which stand in their way of total mind control

Thought policing by minions of communist gods FAILS

While we are discussing religion, why do commie birathers visit their god marx's house?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Marx_House

The Karl Marx House museum currently receives about 32,000 visitors a year

If they truly believe in communism they should demolish it and turn it into an agricultural feild, more power to peasants!!!

Did they do anything about it when they were in power? In their frst 13-day govt, ABV considered a nuke test, but not a bhavya mandir in ayodhya...Shows where priorities lie for the politicians when in power

developing a Nuclear deterrent was the most important thing at that point of time, Vajpayee did the right thing keeping national interest above personal and party interest, this is how a patriotic person should behave who truly loves his country

...Similarly, Digvijay Singh can say what he wants, but does that impact decision-making among real decision-makers?

Digivijay singh is the political guru of duffer rahul gandhi

Whatever diggy barks, duffer repeats it. So its very important to keep mad dog diggy under watch, preferably under medical supervision

[svinayak]

The BJP ran a decade-long agitation taking off on a Congress-inspired mythological non-issue, and rode that wave
to power..

Ram mandir at Ayodhya is an important place of worship for devout sanatan dharmis, some non-believers worshipping other gods like marx, mao fail to understand this simple fact since their type of worship is different

These people believe in totalitarian ideology of communism and so attack our gods which stand in their way of total mind control

THe Ayodhya mandir has a history going back to several 100 years of not millennial
These new liberal children now want to talk about traditions which they have no clue and discuss as if they own it and can decide the future of the millions from rooms of the universities.

[svinayak]

Its very simplistic to think of people, politicians especialy in ideological terms...Ideology for politicians is as important as its ability to generate votes...Digvijay Singh is not turning Islamist or anything else..He is simply trying to recapture Congress's lost ground in UP, and northern India in general..the grand congress coalition in the good old days comprised of Dalits/ST, muslims and brahmins

.He is now going for the jugular...He is being true to his form as a politician...

A non-judgemental whitewashing of Doggy's behavior that will not fly....This kind of analysis further sets a dangerous precedent of hiding a communal and divisive agenda behind fancy acronyms.

Doggy needs to be called out on his communal game, one that is deeply antithetical to India's larger interests and global positioning. And if he is doing this as a purely cynical political exercise the likes of which no equivalent democracy is ever likely to tolerate - and not due to ideological reasons , that makes him (and the INC, since they have not distanced themselves from him) all the more dangerous to the nation.

These type of communal divisive game now with Terror threats and global jihad and Pakistan next door will be a disaster. India does not need this kind of stupidity. India has suffered for long generations and we dont need a *GAME* being played by a lowly politician for his few votes.

[putnanja]

Did they do anything about it when they were in power? In their frst 13-day govt, ABV considered a nuke test, but not a bhavya mandir in ayodhya...Shows where priorities lie for the politicians when in power

developing a Nuclear deterrent was the most important thing at that point of time, Vajpayee did the right thing keeping national interest above personal and party interest, this is how a patriotic person should behave who truly loves his country

How easily one also forgets that it was a coalition govt and so it was run on a "common minimum program" agreed by all coalition partners. Most of its partners barring shiv sena were against changing status quo on ayodhya issue, article 370 etc.

[saket]

^^^Arjun,

I wasnt justifying the content of what Digvijay Singh said, only laying down the context..

But really, what should concern the enlightened citizenry is not the soundbytes, but actual policy-making...The BJP ran a decade-long agitation taking off on a Congress-inspired mythological non-issue, and rode that wave to power..Did they do anything about it when they were in power? In their frst 13-day govt, ABV considered a nuke test, but not a bhavya mandir in ayodhya...Shows where priorities lie for the politicians when in power...Similarly, Digvijay Singh can say what he wants, but does that impact decision-making among real decision-makers? And Diggy raja is not even a policy-maker, even if he has delusions of the same..Just because he mouths these inanities, does it prevent the NIA from going after Madhani?

Ditto for the princeling...He can get vicarious pleasures out of the decision on Niyamgiri (which should have been done in the first place anyways), but he doesnt impact real policy in any way..Even the US ambassador didnt take him seriously, if you read the entire Wikileaks piece aroud the issue..

The inanities need to be laid bare, and the media here does that very well...But to conclude that just because Digvijay Singh said that Karkare was under threat from hindu groups suddenly India's stature goes down is stretching the point...India's international stature is a function of a single, and only a single factor, its economic heft...As long as that is in place, Diggy raja's soundbytes dont even enter discussions in board rooms and investor presentations...

There is however an internal security angle to such statements, as they can incite emotions...However to clamp down on Diggy raja (or Rahul Gandhi) alone will then not be enough, you would need to clamp down on a lot of politicians (tilak, tarazu aur talwar, inko maaro joote chaar - any less volatile? Used by BSP for 2 decades and more)...The only way to deal with it would be through an enlightened citizenry, and increasingly Indians, powered by the new-found economic confidence are looking through it...

JMT....

Yes Diggy can say what he wants to and no one can clamp down on him; and here on this forum people are only criticizing Diggy for his inane and dangerous statements. What is bothering you if people criticize Diggy?? It seems that you are doing an implicit false equivalence between Diggy, Mayawati, LKA etc and the lack of criticism for the rest is pricking you for some reason. Otherwise why the need to jump in Diggy's defense by bringing up LKA, MAyawati, ABV etc ..?

[sum]

As if current BS at the national scene is not enough, we now have the CM of J&K saying that trying to hoist the national flag at lal chowk will have "consequences" from the state govt side ( of course, hoisting the Paki flag should be ok if it doesnt cause law and order problems?) and the GoI sits quiet.

Wonder what more is left to see in the current term of UPA-II?

[munna]

Wonder what more is left to see in the current term of UPA-II?

Yeh to ibtida-e-ishq hai rota hai kya? Aage aage dekhiye hota hai kya? (English: This is the start of a stormy affair why do you weep, wait and watch what happens further down the road)

We are sitting on an internal security equivalent of global financial crisis whereby our institutions have been decimated for short term political gains by the central government. All echelons of governance in Delhi are filled in by non-career track jhola chaaps, lobbyists, special interest groups, liberals and activists. The state as we know itself is in danger of being reduced to a patronage dispensing mechanism for one political party. There is only one denouement and that will be to no ones liking unless this juggernaut is jammed right in its tracks. At the very least PMO should see a new incumbent, lest don the life vests and tighten the rigs rough seas ahead.

PS: A humble request to all and sundry posters, calling one's beliefs as myths is an act of abuse against the followers. Please ensure that you do not set a precedent whereby followers of one set of "myths" start attacking other "myths" to de-myth-ify the situation.

[brihaspati]

^^^second that. Lots of other stuff is also myth then. At least two whole faiths sytems then can become myths entirely - because they rely entirely on claims of someone talking to someone else in the past with no independently verifiable method of proof.

Moreover, it shows a Freudian lapse about what one really believes about aspects of narratives of the majority faith in India. It is not just about making a casual comment - but also because such casual dismissals within India are not provable also. Either way. Take them as narratives, which need not reflect reality of events in the past - but you also do not have siufficient material to claim that it never happened in reality.

In the western brand of current scholarship - European myths are seen as having a core of possible reality. It of course does not extend to non-European ones. No harm in thinking safely and realistically about reality of the past.

Digvijay's comments are not simply about political opportunism or causing harm to India in the image department. It is about the real possible issue of suspicions of connection of an officers killing with a claimed phone call. The claimed implication could be interpreted also as cover for something much more sinister in terms of internal security - that a politician could have panicked at information revealed in good faith by an officer, and forwarded information to the very source which organized the killing. CT/extreme imgaination - etc, but once paranoid accusations start flowing, wouldn't it be the first suspicion on any investigator's mind that the claimant is trying to free himself of suspicion?

[putnanja]

Pragya 'aide' tries suicide, alleges he was harassed

...
A 28-year-old self-styled godman who calls himself Anant Brahmachari and claims to be the "Dharam Bhai" of Malegaon blast accused Sadhvi Pragya Singh Thakur allegedly attempted suicide in south-east Delhi today alleging that he was being harassed by investigating agencies.

Anant allegedly consumed poison and was found unconscious inside his room at a guesthouse in Jangpura early on Wednesday afternoon, confirmed Delhi Police.

...
They said that Anant has told doctors that he was being harassed continuously by NIA officials. Top Delhi Police officers said they were unaware of any such claims. Sources said a note had been recovered from him in which he had alleged that he was depressed due to questioning by the investigating agencies in connection with his sister's alleged association with terrorist acts. Mishra neither denied nor confirmed this, simply saying it "was a matter of investigation."
...

So they desperately want to show that some hindus are behind terrorist attack and want to do an == . I guess the congress plenary session has put more pressure on the home ministry now to come out with terrorist links with RSS

[krithivas]

Saffron terror leader to be booked for Samjhauta blast

Read more: Saffron terror leader to be booked for Samjhauta blast - The Times of India http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... z1ACXAXtkY

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 225559.cms

Aseemanand was in charge of the Vanavasi Kalyan Ashram working with the tribals, and as I understood, working against religious conversion. Swami Laxmanananda who also was working against conversion to Christianity was murdered.

R. Krithivas

[somnath]

^^^ I am not making a defence case of Digvijay Singh (he has rapidly gone downhill since the time he lost the second re-election in MP)...But it isnt enough to criticise everything that a politician says, because then a) there will always be tons of that floating around, politicians dont really leave any chance to be obnoxious and b) the media covers it anyways..It is probably a little more interesting to analyse motivations, pressure points et al of why certain politicians/parties say and do what they do...And how they behave when they have to hold the reigns of power..(Digvijay Singh, for instance is the same person who publicly went to Tirupati during his first re-election campaign and vowed to remain vegetarian if he won - and again publicly abided by the vows when he did!)...

it is also due to the soft power and values associated with India, that provides comfort to the largely Christian Western economies to outsource to the country. To put it slightly more crudely, in today's environment - a largely Muslim country could never have hoped to reach the same position even if Muslim nations somehow developed the knowledge and entrepreneurial strengths to compete; and conversely if India had been Christian (without affecting the quality of manpower and entrepreneurs) it would have been a larger industry.

This is an astounding claim, anecdotaly one that I dont encounter in my job (which is a cog in the global investment wheel), and doesnt get empirically borne out by data either to any professional (or amateur) analyst..Turkey, Indonesia, Malaysia - three muslim countries, not "oil-cursed" - all three have per capita incomes higher than India's, and generally better human development indicators as well..As for international trade and investments, Malaysia and Indonesia have flourishing ties under ASEAN with the rest of the ASEAN bloc (which is buddhist, confucian and christian), and Turkey has massive linkages with Europe...And all these countries have enormous investor interest out of Europe and North America...Of course in terms of sheer absolute heft, India towers over most these days, but that doesnt mean that others arent doing well, and that somehow "muslim" countries cannot genetically become globally competitive...Similarly, the corollary, that somehow "christian" countries have better chances...If that were the case, Philippines, a devoutly catholic country, would have been the first and prime beneficiary of s/w outsourcing...Its got high literacy levels, better infrastructure than India, and located in a relatively peaceful neighbourhood...

The reason why there havent been is the primary geo-political rationale followed by investors, ie, stbility, stability of polity and policy...Till recently, Philippines has been one of the most unstable polities in the region, with street clashes, protests, army coup, frequent changes in govt, the works...These are precisely the things that investors dislike...Regardless of religion...

From a pure investor perspective, the bomb blast in the German Bakery in Pune is worrying, but something that can be (and has to be) lived with these days..But if street clashes of the sort that we saw recently on account of a statue, or the one around Bhandarkar institute a few years back become de rigeur, if these become everyday affairs, that becomes a more defining prblem over a decision to locate a dev centre in the city...

[vera_k]

^^

People care about Digvijay Singh only because of his job as Rahul Gandhi's manager, seeing how Rahul Gandhi is widely stated to be the INC's next Prime Minister. It's concerning if such a person starts toeing the Islamist line (26/11 as conspiracy of CIA/RSS/Mossad), since presumably then a future Prime Minister could be Islamist too.

[krisna]

.
From a pure investor perspective, the bomb blast in the German Bakery in Pune is worrying, but something that can be (and has to be) lived with these days..But if street clashes of the sort that we saw recently on account of a statue, or the one around Bhandarkar institute a few years back become de rigeur, if these become everyday affairs, that becomes a more defining prblem over a decision to locate a dev centre in the city...

Please explain more clearly Somnath. I dont understand you.

[brihaspati]

Yes investors are looking for "pure returns" in monetary or asset terms, lets say (so we will not use the more-interesting-motivations-search for these special beings - the foreign investors). The reason they invest is not only the returns, but how deep the control can be over the political system of the region to ensure the safe return of investments, and how pliable the government of the region can be made to allow the extraction of such returns and profits.

Actually, the great investment destinations of Malaysia or Indonesia suffered from a drastic flight of capital in the late 90's from which they did not tolerably recover until a decade was over. The so-called East Asian currency crisis is still studied as a textbook case of not just "regional incompetence!!" but people still blush hot if it is suggested that pegging currencies at the behest of "investors" to some European currencies could have beena trigger.

Do we really care to explore as to where the investments go in - in such countries, and into what sectors, and whether they are not one more case of dependent development where investors decide essentially to invest in sectors that will ensure that dependence continues. Its not stability alone that decides investments but that is the typical excuse given.

What stability crisis, political street demo, violence prompted the 98 crisis in SEAsia for foreign investors?

Digvijay Singh, lets say, went to Tirupati and kept some vows "very publicly". Does that somehow invalidate his statements trying to egg on the state machinery against "Hindu" organizations as just being political gimmick to win more "Islamic" votes? Does it not make then a clear statement that he is cynically willing to paint Muslims of India as most strongly motivated by Hindu-assertiveness-bashing only? That he believes that Indian Muslims only want to see the elimination of Hindu organizations? Is that a politically correct observation to make for DS? There is no way such a belief can be dismissed because without such a strong conviction in DS - the "cynical ploy only" excuse does not hold.

Defending DS or lightening what he is doing by somehow making it - oh all politicians do that - whats the big deal - condemns the Indian Muslims. Defending the Indian Muslims as not being solely motivated by Hindu bashing -condemns Digvijay. Both cannot be defended simultaneously.

[Arjun]

This is an astounding claim, anecdotaly one that I dont encounter in my job (which is a cog in the global investment wheel), and doesnt get empirically borne out by data either to any professional (or amateur) analyst..Turkey, Indonesia, Malaysia - three muslim countries, not "oil-cursed" - all three have per capita incomes higher than India's, and generally better human development indicators as well..As for international trade and investments, Malaysia and Indonesia have flourishing ties under ASEAN with the rest of the ASEAN bloc (which is buddhist, confucian and christian), and Turkey has massive linkages with Europe...And all these countries have enormous investor interest out of Europe and North America...Of course in terms of sheer absolute heft, India towers over most these days, but that doesnt mean that others arent doing well, and that somehow "muslim" countries cannot genetically become globally competitive...Similarly, the corollary, that somehow "christian" countries have better chances...If that were the case, Philippines, a devoutly catholic country, would have been the first and prime beneficiary of s/w outsourcing...Its got high literacy levels, better infrastructure than India, and located in a relatively peaceful neighbourhood...

Somnath, I suggest then that rather than expounding based on your experience as 'a cog in a wheel' (your words) for some FII in Singapore, you get some perspective from someone who is not just a cog in a wheel and / or has actually interacted with customers in the industries I mentioned.

Fyi, all major Fortune 500 firms have systematic weightages allotted to key parameters of countries they are looking to outsource to. One of the key parameters is 'cultural compatibility'. The Philippines and Western economies score highest on this parameter - higher than India. Its only because of India scoring higher on other parameters that its industry manages to stay ahead. Also, Phillipines has now crossed India on the low-level BPO voice-export business which is more commodity....they will not be able to cross India on the higher end and software services since the difference in quality and price will then start showing.

My point is simply that the image of the country, its so-called 'soft power' is a key determinant of economic heft and customer business. Obviously the image of the largest demographic group in the country will affect the image of the nation as a whole. If you still refuse to understand this simple statement of fact - all I can say is please step out a little from the spreadsheet world you are living in and step into the real world.

[sum]

So they desperately want to show that some hindus are behind terrorist attack and want to do an == . I guess the congress plenary session has put more pressure on the home ministry now to come out with terrorist links with RSS

Dont hear even a whisper from any of the 100000 Human Rights orgs in the country which are ready to hit the streets when known LeT agents are arrested or gunned down?

[somnath]

Wont belabour upon the "economic" point, it will take the discussion way OT..But very quickly,

Arjun, you make too many assumptions about me (spreadsheet world etc) without knowing a whit...Suffice to say that I have seen, made, structured and facilitated enough investments in countries around Asia to know a few things about typical foreign investor decision-making processes..But that is really besides the point - empirical data is not an exclusive preserve of anyone..Cultural compatibility is absolutely an important factor in taking outsourcing decisions...But there is nothing in data to suggest that somehow all "muslim" countries are culturally incompatible to succeed in the investor sweepstakes, as you are suggesting..Malaysia in fact is a large centre for outsourcing services targeted towards East Asian countries...Turkey is a huge manufacturing centre for a large number of European companies..Look at their macro numbers, they are uniformly better than India's on all human development indicators - that itself should tell you something, even if you dont know that Royal Dutch Shell, DHL, HP and Standard Chartered have their global or regional shared support centres in Malaysia. You know why, among other reasons, for servicing East Asia, Malaysia is much more culturally compatible than India...What you say about Philippines is right, they would be high on compatibility, but score low on a number of other factors - which is precisely my point..The limited point is that investors do not view these things from a religious perspective, ceteris paribus..

Brihaspatiji, wht has the East Asian crisis got to do with this discussion? There are "text book cases" of crisis in pretty much every geography - financial crises are pretty secular in nature....And of course, I noticed this..

The so-called East Asian currency crisis is still studied as a textbook case of not just "regional incompetence!!" but people still blush hot if it is suggested that pegging currencies at the behest of "investors" to some European currencies could have beena trigger

The problem with the East Asian countries during the crisis was managing a dirty float peg with the dollar, not some "european currencies"...Maybe you want to study the text book case before you comment? And by the way, the worst hit country during the crisis was Thailand - a buddhist nation!

[Arjun]

Somnath, please concentrate on my central argument - which I have already repeated once before.

1) A country's global image / 'soft-power' is one of the determinants of success in global trade (hence in economic heft)
2) The image of its largest demographic constituent is a key determinant of the overall image of the country
3) A willful spoiling of the image of the largest demographic constituent in the country can therefore (based on facts 1 and 2 above) affect its economic success - & I am not even talking about the effect on strategic relations.

Let me know which one of the above you disagree with.

[somnath]

^^^ 1 and 2 are ad oculos...I dont think that was the point that came across though..It seemed you were suggesting that whatever be the other merits, if a country is "muslim", it is not designed to suceed in the international sweepstakes...That clearly is untrue, thats all...

About 3, the image of a country cannot be spoiled by random statements by politicians..Image takes a lot to build, and it takes a lot to destroy as well..there is far too much going on everyday that reinforces the positives about India for the net result to turn negative because of a few politicians..

[Arjun]

^^^ 1 and 2 are ad oculos...I dont think that was the point that came across though..It seemed you were suggesting that whatever be the other merits, if a country is "muslim", it is not designed to suceed in the international sweepstakes...That clearly is untrue, thats all...

About 3, the image of a country cannot be spoiled by random statements by politicians..Image takes a lot to build, and it takes a lot to destroy as well..there is far too much going on everyday that reinforces the positives about India for the net result to turn negative because of a few politicians..

- Glad you agree with points 1 & 2 (though I had to look up a dictionary to know that you do..)

- The reference to Muslim nations was as an example for point 3. The image of the largest demographic in the country is a key determinant to the economic success of the country. There are certainly Muslim countries that are doing relatively well economically, but if you believe Muslim countries are not getting hurt because of the image of Islam in Western eyes - do let me know and we can debate further.

- If you agree with Points 1 and 2, you have to agree with 3 since it is a derivative of the former.

- Looks like your point is that Doggy is not hurting the image of Hindus...?!? A statement here or there might not make a difference, but if INC and Doggy repeat a lie multiple times - in true Goebbelsian spirit it is bound to be considered the truth and will impact the image. Don't see how one can argue against that.

Image takes a lot to build, and it takes a lot to destroy as well

Completely wrong. Image takes a lot to build, but takes very little to destroy. Please learn some marketing basics.

[A_Gupta]

I had thought that Headley had cleared up this case, pointing to the LeT:

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 225773.cms

NEW DELHI: It is now amply clear that the 2007 Samjhauta Express blasts were a handiwork of extremist Hindu elements and not that of a Pakistan-based or local Islamic terror outfit. The National Investigation Agency’s inquiry into the Malegaon blast has unravelled the ‘bomb-for-bomb’ theory of Hindu extremist groups that led them to target Pakistani citizens aboard the Samjhauta Express on February 18, 2007.

The questioning of Swami Aseemanand, arrested from Haridwar last month for links to the Malegaon blast conspiracy, has revealed that he was among the conspirators behind the Samjhauta train blasts. The NIA believes that the Samjhauta conspiracy was hatched following the terror blasts at Sankatmochan temple in Varanasi, with the aim of avenging attacks by Pakistan-backed terror groups on Hindu religious places.

[Raghavendra]

Five JeM terrorists get life imprisonment
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 229605.cms

[sum]

I had thought that Headley had cleared up this case, pointing to the LeT:

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 225773.cms

Wah, the levels the INC will stoop for a few votes.... wonder WTF were Headley and US and our own agencies talking about when they blamed LeT and even got a red corner issued against a Paki for the attack!!!

[Raghavendra]

^Real reason why swami aseemanand is being targeted
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 5#p1006025

He non-violently countered sonia's gameplan of demographic conversion of indians , so sonia is linking him to violent attack to give him a bad name and kill him

fascist behaviour typical of sonia, when she cant fight fair she sets rabid dogs on her opponents

In gujarat her rabid dogs teesta setlavad and javed keep attacking the state government and cm modi

In karnataka her rabid dog governor h.r.bhradrwaj keeps attacking the state government for no reason

In UP her rabid dog CBI keeps attacking mayawati and mulayam singh

In west bengal her rabid dog mamata keeps attacking leftfront government

In Andhra she used her rabid dog income tax office to attack jaganmohan reddy

If Indians want to keep india as united country they need to keep asking questions about sonia's past[education,parents,source of accounted wealth,connections with quattrochi,why did she kill YSR, Madhavrao Scindia, Rajendra Vadra, Rajesh Pilot]

Time to end to sonia's fascist rule this coming new year

[brihaspati]

Unfortunately, Somnath ji,
Not all the East Asian currencies were pegged to the dollar. OT

Raising the question was not entirely OT - because you were trying to claim that Muslim countries in the region were so attractive for foreign investors because they provided "stable investment environment". If so why did not the investors show confidence in the Muslim countries of the region, when there were no obvious stability problem?

Example was to show that investor "confidence" was not solely and supremely guided always by so-called stability criterion.

[sum]

There is no major threat from 'saffron terrorists'


Col. (retd.) Anil Athale.

The recent controversy over a politician's remark on 'Hindu terror' and another gem of invoking visions of an India [ Images ]n Hitler [ Images ] need to be dismissed with contempt they deserve. The former American Ambassador to India, David Mulford's comment that Indian politicians can stoop to any level to garner votes is a ringing indictment of this tribe of politicians.

But such is the power of repetition of lies that there is a great danger of these becoming self-fulfilling prophesies and therefore need to be challenged. An even greater reason is that a politician in wilderness (and a former chief minister) has insinuated that (just like Pakistan) 'saffron' terror has infiltrated even the Indian armed forces. He approvingly quotes the example of a lone wolf rogue officer who is alleged to have got involved in terrorist acts. In the interest of national security, these wild assertions need to be challenged.

Terror threats that India faces:

As a multi-ethnic, religious and linguistic subcontinent, India faces many revolts backed by narrow ideologies. There is the separatist movement in Kashmir valley (not Jammu and Kashmir [ Images ] but only the valley), Assam, Manipur and Nagaland. In addition there is an on going unrest in heartland of India where the Communist insurgents want to overthrow the state and usher in 'their' version of 'people's republic', popularly called Naxalites [ Images ]. All these movements indulge in use of terror tactics off and on.

In addition to the above, since last two years, a motley group of Hindu extremists have taken to 'retaliate' for the past acts of terror attributed to Islamist terror groups located in Pakistan and who receive some support from fringe element of Indian Muslims.

The groups like the Students Islamic Movement of India or its latest avatar, the Indian Mujahedeen, are essentially an extension of the Pakistan-based Lashkar-e-Tayiba [ Images ].

A brief look at statistics shows that in the last five years the LeT-led combine has carried out ten major attacks in which over 625 Indians have been killed and over 3,000 have been wounded seriously. Equally startling is the fact that so far not a single terrorist involved in these activities has been punished. Most of the investigations have reached a dead end or the perpetrators have fled to Pakistan. The alleged saffron terror is linked to four incidents in which over 19 people have lost their lives and a few score have been wounded.

But even more telling is the fact that the LeT-led campaign against India is essentially a joint enterprise with Pakistan Army [ Images ] (through the Inter Services Intelligence). While in all other insurgencies including the one in Kashmir valley, there is an element of external support (The Naga rebels do receive Chinese help), the LeT-led campaign is unique in that it is a virtual proxy war launched by one state against the other by using the tactic of deniability.

The Late Krishna Menon, India's de facto foreign minister in the 1950s and early 1960s, was of the view that "Pakistan views partition as only a beginning. Her idea is to get a jumping off point to take the whole of India. Their minds work in this way -- that it was from the Mughals that the British took over. Now that the British have gone back, the Muslims must come back." (Breacher Michael, "India and World Politics: Krishna Menon's View of the World", Oxford, London [ Images ], 1968. page 171)

Even the former Pakistani dictator General Pervez Musharaf is on record to having admitting that even if Kashmir issue is resolved, relations with India would remain stormy.

The LeT terror campaign against India is thus backed by the power and resources of a state. To compare this with the acts of a crowd of motley Hindu extremists is like equating chalk with cheese.

Religious fundamentalism and terrorism: A tenuous link!

Even since Al Qaeda [ Images ] and Osama Bin Laden [ Images ] invoked religion to justify their terror attacks, the terrorism tag has been unfortunately put on the religion of Islam. A little introspection will show that the Al Qaeda's newly found belief in the Islamic cause is fake. Osama never tires of invoking the cause of Palestine (and now even Kashmir) to justify his actions. But wasn't the same Osama happily collaborating with the hated Americans through the decade of 1980's in Afghanistan? Was America then not supporting Israel?

The truth is that Osama's basic aim is to grab power in Saudi Arabia. He felt that he had an IoU from the Americans on this. But once the first Afghan war was over, the Americans apparently refused to oblige him. It is only then that he remembered the plight of Palestine/Kashmir.

A general study of 9/11 bombers or even the latest failed Time Square terrorist do not show much direct connection between religious fundamentalism and terrorism. None of these were typically religious people. An MIT study has also similarly shown that there no direct link between poverty and terrorism. Though undoubtedly, like the lone surviving terrorist of Mumbai [ Images ] attack did belong to a poor family, his motivations seem very clearly money!

The growth of religious fundamentalism can indeed provoke riots and disturb peace but by itself cannot lead to terrorism. It is true that riots or mob violence is bad, but it is a like a crime of passion, whereas terrorism is like a pre-meditated mass murder. It is necessary to clearly distinguish these two.

Terrorism [ Images ] that the world faces today is essentially a power struggle and proxy war to achieve this worldly aim. Religion is used only as a cloak to hide the true intentions, be it Osama or the LeT. Even the TTP (Tehrik-e-Taliban-e-Pakistan) is similarly out to grab power in that country.

It is unfortunate that the current political power struggle got the 'Islamist' tag because the terrorist's themselves invoked religious sanction for their acts by selectively quoting from the holy book.

Luckily for the Indian subcontinent, the fact that in Pakistan in last five years there have been over 42 attacks on mosques and over 530 worshippers have been killed while performing namaaz. In the entire period of 63 years these many attacks have not taken place in India. The Indians who fall into the LeT trap must look at this reality and honestly answer the question whether they are safe in India or Pakistan?

One is aware that the incidents of the Gujarat riots in 2002 will be evoked. But the fact is that in these riots (according to the Union home ministry) 800 people lost their lives. Besides this, 232 (mostly from the majority community) were killed in police firing! When one alludes to the ghost of Hitler and German genocide of Jews, one must ask a question, were any Germans killed by their police for attacking Jews? Our modern politicians seem to have not read much history but have surely studied Gobbles' quite thoroughly, and have succeeded in repeating a lie again and again to make it an established fact. This does not in any way condone partisan behaviour of the police or even inability of the government to control the violence quickly enough.

But the worst is the snide attempt to drag the armed forces into the controversy. One would like to remind these unworthies that the armed forces of India have always acted with utmost impartiality in these situations. If any one has doubt go and ask Kutubuddin Ansari, a tailor from Ahmedabad [ Images ], who told this author with tears in his eyes that it was the timely arrival of the army that saved him and his family.

By sowing doubts about the integrity of armed forces whose interest is this person serving?

Good article but cannot awaken a person who is pretending to be asleep ( the tons of jhollawallah brigades floating around in Desh and resident BRF WKKs)

[Nihat]

Police use hi-tech to stalk criminals

Bangalore headquartered Oriental Software deployed their “intelligent” software solutions in a major city which has seen growing incidences of terror-linked activity. Police departments in other states are likely to follow suit integrating IT solutions to efficiently check criminal activity.

The firm’s predictive analytics solution, called Nostradamus, is capable of aiding enforcement agencies in crime investigation, detection and revealing crime patters and trends.

[somnath]

Not all the East Asian currencies were pegged to the dollar

Which were the ccies pegged to FFR, GBP or DM, if I may?

because you were trying to claim that Muslim countries in the region were so attractive for foreign investors because they provided "stable investment environment". If so why did not the investors show confidence in the Muslim countries of the region, when there were no obvious stability problem?

You should really read a little less perfunctorily (or with a little more comprehension!)...I was responding to a claim that said that ceteris paribus (presence of skills, environment etc), a muslim country will never be successful in the global investment sweepstakes as India has been (or a christian country will be)..The point simply is that there are enough muslim countries that have "succeeded" around the same set of variables that India does..About the financial crisis, definitionally a financial crisis denotes a breakdown of stability in policy and polity, so obviously investors are chary of crises - true for Malaysia, true for Greece, true for UK, true for India and true for Thailand - really no denominational exceptions!

[brihaspati]

Not all the East Asian currencies were pegged to the dollar

Which were the ccies pegged to FFR, GBP or DM, if I may?

Actually, which East Asian country openly and officially declared their currencies to have been pegged to any other identified currency? (I could be wrong, but I think only HK gave any indication formally - all others let it be known that they were pegging but did not disclose the currency basket). Your so-called pegging against the dollar had actually to be inferred and estimated. Even there, there are strong indications that several of these countries were using a basket where dollar was predominant but Yen as well as the Deutsche Mark was also being used. Yen was in fact quite well known not to have been pegged at all to even the dollar.

because you were trying to claim that Muslim countries in the region were so attractive for foreign investors because they provided "stable investment environment". If so why did not the investors show confidence in the Muslim countries of the region, when there were no obvious stability problem?

You should really read a little less perfunctorily (or with a little more comprehension!)...I was responding to a claim that said that ceteris paribus (presence of skills, environment etc), a muslim country will never be successful in the global investment sweepstakes as India has been (or a christian country will be)..The point simply is that there are enough muslim countries that have "succeeded" around the same set of variables that India does..About the financial crisis, definitionally a financial crisis denotes a breakdown of stability in policy and polity, so obviously investors are chary of crises - true for Malaysia, true for Greece, true for UK, true for India and true for Thailand - really no denominational exceptions!

[/quote]

The examples you had given of crises were not in economic indicators, but of street violence - physical, visible signs of instability. As for the currency attacks on the East Asian countries, were they preceded by such street violence? Any serious breakdown of stability in policy? Some macro-indicators post attacks were seen as similar to the Latin American ones some years previously (lending to GDP ratio etc) but in some countries only - and again not in the "Muslim" countries.

The point is simply that even after such apparent success these Muslim countries could not resist the financial mauling at the hands of external investors and speculators - which does not indicate a very sound economic base. Greeks and the Irish or the British do not compare because the nature of their financial crises is largely different from the SE Asian ones of late 90's.

The Muslim countries without a strong petro base could be showing the effects of a dependent production system that was severely open to manipulation and attack by external speculative forces. This is not the situation for India or UK or even the EU.

By the way, I notice a penchant to mix up and equate incomparables to push a point, and dismiss other's capacity to read closely or with "comprehension". I do not think I have so far done the same with your constructions of supposed real world in economics, finance or politics. Should I?