Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2010

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 06 Jan 2011 19:20

everyone is outdoing each other to spare themselves from the butcher's knife
its more like the french revolution... bastille day is coming to paquistan
madame guillotine is warming up

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 06 Jan 2011 19:29

After 10+ yrs of waiting and rooting for a papistan collapse, have grown jaded only. Am convinced it ain't coming anytime soon. The 3.5 have way too much invested in TSP status quo even though that is fraying. I'd be happy to see TSP formally break up in moi lifetime. Only.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 06 Jan 2011 19:33

somethings been bothering me
it seems that my opinion of what will happen to pakistan is bipolar - ie anarchy via the jehadi route or grim military status quo. every event that occurs inspires these two modes of outcome thinking, and ultimately i am not able to conclude as to which will prevail. perhaps model 1 rises and then model 2 compensates and vice versa. perhaps this is the master stroke of genius that the paks have pulled of with all observers including unkil and dragon
reverse bi-polar doubt induction syndrome

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 06 Jan 2011 19:45

AjayKK wrote:

The above photo has been taken along with the one below.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 06 Jan 2011 19:51

]

A_Gupta wrote:PS: the source of Indian problems also becomes clear to me. The mullahs have their indian counterparts in Hindu and nationalist garb.

How instinctively the "Hindu" word comes when the comparison starts for India. This phenomenon needs to be studied.

symontk · Post by **symontk** » 06 Jan 2011 19:54

What Qadri has done is a paradigm shift. Earlier times, in pakistan military muscle power was considered the strongest currency. It will now shift towards vigilinates. New qadris would rise and would tear down the elite edifices that pakistani rapes have built over the years. it would bring the masses together and that would be the start of a new islamic revolution.....

yawn........I have a night meeting to attend by 8.30

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 06 Jan 2011 19:58

^

Acharya-ji, that aberration is due to intellectual-cross-breeding between Dhimmitude and EJ-Leftism.

With that extrapolation A_Gupta's intellectual loyalties became evident. He can have such a "free-mind" in a Hindu Bharat only. Because Hindus don't physically eliminate their weaklings like other societies.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 06 Jan 2011 20:11

Pratyush wrote:Sanku,

wasn't there a senario in pre 9/11 which pridected the collapse of the TSP by 2012. I think it was titled playing the Nuke baok tune or something similar.

Was discussed on BRF arround that time.

Pratyush, Vikas, Anujan.

At least I do not think that Pakistan will "collapse" in the "traditional" or expected sense without India's help. What will happen would be a morphing of current Pakistan into a full blown demon, no pretenses that exist now will stay.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 06 Jan 2011 20:12

For timepass onlee.

The hallmarks of RAPE are clearly seen. Great looking shirt. Expensive glasses. Designer Salwar Kameez. Shades in manicured hands.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 06 Jan 2011 20:37

@Sanku,

The word collapse has different meanings for different people. For me the end of the civil society in TSP is its collapse. For you it is not that's what I understand from your post. But you will agree when I say that it is a good thing for us as the mask gets ripped off.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 06 Jan 2011 20:50

Yes,
The danger is that just like the guy who threw a shoe at GWB became a phenomenon in the muslim world, with a hundred copycats.
There is a danger that Qadri will give birth to a hundred copycats in Pakistan.

Pakistan is in deep trouble.
The powers that be can't be seen as trying to prosecute Qadri - the entire population will revolt. If they shield him, they will inspire a hundred clones who will take them out in the end.

Like I said before; The abduls are on the streets, and the fervour for Jihad is very high. Every word uttered, every action by the powers that be will be twisted and will become a noose around pakistan's neck.

Boss, beer and popcorn time.

saip · Post by **saip** » 06 Jan 2011 20:57

Why does a Christian woman cover her face so completely while the 'muslim' women have not done so?

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 06 Jan 2011 20:58

saip - because any random yahoo who recognises her is entitled to kill her

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 06 Jan 2011 21:19

Comparison of the hands of the Paki elite RAPE and hands of the average Ayesha of Pakistan

arun · Post by **arun** » 06 Jan 2011 21:33

Mohammed Hanif, former editor of the BBC Urdu service and author of "A Case of Exploding Mangoes" on the killing of Punjab Governor Salman Taseer. Excerpts :

When Pakistan's television anchors and newspaper columnists describe Salman Taseer's assassination a tragedy, they are not telling us the whole truth.

Because many of these very anchors and columnists have stated, in no uncertain terms, that by expressing his reservations about the blasphemy law, Salman Taseer had crossed a line on the other side of which is certain death.

The line that Governor Taseer is supposed to have crossed did not get drawn just by the text of a fatwa, or by the orders of Gen Zia who promulgated the blasphemy law as it exists now.

Religious groups are not the only ones responsible. The op-ed writers whose work reads like bloodcurdling fatwas are also not the only ones to blame.

It is a line that is drawn across all Pakistanis' hearts.

Why are we so frightened of non-Muslims who make up less than 2% of this country's population?

Why are we so fond of killing people in the name of the same Prophet who brought us the message that one murder is the same as the murder of all of humanity?

By using words like "ghazi" (warrior) and "shaheed" (martyr) for cold-blooded killers, are we trying to tame some ancient fear or placate the jihadi within?

Read it all in the BBC:

Pakistan viewpoint: Who is to blame for Taseer's death?

Uttam · Post by **Uttam** » 06 Jan 2011 21:37

shiv wrote:Comparison of the hands of the Paki elite RAPE and hands of the average Ayesha of Pakistan

Shiv, I am not fan of Paki elite RAPE, but I think this comparison is unfair. You will find similar differences no matter where you are, though more pronounced in economically poor nations.

Baikul · Post by **Baikul** » 06 Jan 2011 21:41

Uttam wrote:
shiv wrote:Comparison of the hands of the Paki elite RAPE and hands of the average Ayesha of Pakistan
Shiv, I am not fan of Paki elite RAPE, but I think this comparison is unfair. You will find similar differences no matter where you are, though more pronounced in economically poor nations.

The comparison makes eminent sense when you evaluate it against what the Pakistanis claim, their vanity and ridiculous sense of genetic privelege - cultural superiority, TFTA onlee, descent from Turkish and Iranian cravanserais onlee...

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 06 Jan 2011 21:43

so the RAPE are a transplanted elite organ now being rejected and ejected by the body...
of course musharraf was the original organ...

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 06 Jan 2011 21:45

Shiv,

The way Mrs ST is gripping her hands also show nervousness and fear.

Paging Philip, please confirm / deny my take of the Photo.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 06 Jan 2011 21:46

or anguish

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 06 Jan 2011 21:47

or a combination of all.

ManuT · Post by **ManuT** » 06 Jan 2011 21:48

Man, this is one fast moving thread.

A_Gupta wrote: Dawn is not down.

Well thanks for checking it out.

Why I asked for it yesterday, for the funeral of the Mr. Tasser was near perfect day for TSPA to stage a coup, citing the failure Mr 10%'s govt, Isloo in shut down mode, had the Coup Bde moved, it would have hard to tell the difference if they were moving to provide security or to topple Mr 10%.

Also, mi lords, point to be noted here is that Mr Taseer was not a fauji, by TSPA standards not worthy of its premium protection and hence expendable. In TSP, without the Agencies premium protection plan, your odds of getting bumped off dramatically increase as there are enough trigger happy yahoos around anyways. On a scale of 1 to 10, only a bumping by ISI affiliates of the like of BB (2007), NS or Mr 10% I would rate at a 10. Mr Taseer would be a 9 for TSPni Punjab is practically 75% TSP.

Also thanks for

A_Gupta wrote: http://criticalppp.com/archives/36002
So, when I heard about the Kashmir uprising in mid-August, the first place for me to go to was the British Council. I had a bicycle at that time and after college, I rushed to the library about five miles away to scour the British press as well as the Times of India. The Times of India came daily to Pakistan and was only stopped after September 6, when Indian invaded Pakistan. The British and Indian press were clear; the skirmishes in Kashmir were not an uprising, but were infiltration by regular Pakistani troops dressed up as Kashmiris.

...

The following 17-day war with India shaped my life permanently. I saw through the deception of the Pakistan Establishment very early in life. I was a mere 15, but had already recognised that we mainstream Pakistanis, the Urdu-speaking elites and my own Punjabi nationality, were a flock of sheep, seeped in bigotry and a false sense of a fake identity.

I shall only state here that if even today Pakistan’s elite cannot see through the con men who divided India’s Muslims into three parts as a bizarre way to unite them, then we are all collectively blind.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 06 Jan 2011 21:48

Pratyush wrote:For me the end of the civil society in TSP is its collapse.

Civil society? In Pakistan? What is that? Pakistan has a RAPE class and a non-RAPE class. With different clan rules for each. No civil society exists there in terms of a common platform for all civilians.

Yes, the pretense of a civil society created by RAPEs should be gone in 5 years or so. There is no other way.

The thing about Blasphemy in the Sharia sense is that anything not 100% as per the trilogy of Koran, Sunnah and Hadiths can be effortlessly called such. This includes drinking while being a Muslim and what not.

Once the "Blasphemy" card is played, it can be repeatedly played over and over against all manners of RAPEs (drink, smoke, visiting India, not saying Koran 5 times a day)

In short their game is up.

ManuT · Post by **ManuT** » 06 Jan 2011 21:50

Sadler wrote: As a case in point, it is my opinion that if India has kicked out every single moslem post-partition of India, there most assuredly would have been many more innocent hindu and sikh lives lost. And i'd bet that most on this forum, in hindsight today, would agree that India would have been better off.

With you sir, I disagree, partition was accepted, TNT was not. Free India was not envisioned to be a Hindu exclusive state though it was partitioned. The British predicament was not very different from US's predicament today in Iraq/Afghanistan (for different reasons), when all strategy is about the exit strategy, one has no leverage.

Contrary to what Jinnah said in his last few days, Pakistan was always envisioned to be a Muslim state. I mean, how many Hindus were in ML anyways. Today it is fulfilling every prophecy that Jinnah had been warned against on partition 70 years ago.

What you have stated, the same was stated about Jews not too long ago. So where did it lead the kultured master race and the rest of the world? And had they succeeded and gotten away with it, they would have somehow become 'more kultured'?

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 06 Jan 2011 22:02

RamaY wrote:^

Acharya-ji, that aberration is due to intellectual-cross-breeding between Dhimmitude and EJ-Leftism.

With that extrapolation A_Gupta's intellectual loyalties became evident. He can have such a "free-mind" in a Hindu Bharat only. Because Hindus don't physically eliminate their weaklings like other societies.

I mean to say that there is a certain rigidity of thought that accompanies a lot of the nationalist and the Hindu narrative - e.g., see Koenraad Elst on intellectual bankruptcy of the RSS. You don't want to acknowledge it, that is fine.

The response of the right wing to e.g. Laine on Shivaji, has been pretty much like the mullahs - throw a riot. If you take away those tactics, what becomes clear is that the only answer is to develop a corresponding Indian scholarship that has the same academic standing as Laine and that can answer him. That is a long-term program however. It also requires the development of a certain objectivity. You want to call that weakness, so be it. Having to adhere to some ideological line, and saying that only expression within those boundaries is acceptable, is a weakness and not a strength.

Another way of looking at it is that you are attacking what I said not with facts ,nor with logic but with "it is weakness", "it is dhimmitude". Well, in Pakistan, the mullahs say "it is not Islam".

Finally, I claim that the objectivity is very much part of our tradition, whether you see what Rama said on the death of Ravana or Krishna said on the death of Duryodhana, and so on.

But enough of the "metaphysics" here. If you find me offensive, you can put me on your "foes" list and not read my posts.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 06 Jan 2011 22:15

Folks please back off from attacking A-Gupta on his views. As Voltaire said "I disagree with his views but defend his right to state them."

Arun,
Early on I thought wtf. However after reading your post on the RR episode, I think you are a true Liberal as opposed to the Fake Liberals and Pseude-Seculars. I mean Liberal in the true political meaning of the word.
BTW my recogntion does not extend to any others who bandwagon you!

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 06 Jan 2011 22:19

Nightwatch 1/6/2011

Pakistan: Update. On 5 January, Pakistani media reported more details about the assassination of Governor Taseer.

The assassin said everyone in the governor's protective detail knew of his intentions. The weird thing is no background investigation would find adverse information about a devout Muslim, not in Pakistan.

The guard who assassinated Punjab Governor Salman Taseer on 4 January told other police officers of his planned attack but was still assigned to Taseer's security detail, the Wall Street Journal reported 5 January. The assassin, Qadri, previously was removed from a counterterrorism police branch because of concerns about his Islamist leanings. He personally had requested to guard Taseer, according to a senior police official.

A dozen people have been detained, including six policemen who were on guard duty and are suspected of aiding the assassination. Investigators are looking into Qadri's ties to radical Islamist group Dawat-e-Islami.

Pakistani religious scholars warned on 5 January that anyone who grieves the assassination of the Punjab Province Governor could face the same fate, Reuters reported.

More than 500 scholars of the Jamaat-e-Ahl-e-Sunnat from the Barelvi sect of Sunnis praised the assassin's "courage" and religious zeal, saying his deed made Muslims worldwide proud. They warned against expressions of grief or sympathy for Taseer's death. The Jamaat-e-Islami party also called Taseer's assassination justified, saying there would have been no need for someone to kill him if the government had removed him from his post.

Comment: The extent of the security breakdown is astonishing, curious and ominous. Qadri's intention to commit murder was apparently barracks gossip. The curious part is that none of his fellow officers alerted security.

No police supervisors apparently voiced concern about the conditions for Qadri's reassignment. They had to know about his intentions, or they are incompetent. Every other cop in the team knew. Either way, the whole group needs to be dismissed and charged with aiding and abetting murder.

The ominous part is that no background investigation or other safeguards can be effective when all the people in a node of a security system support murderous behavior.

Now apply the above analysis to the guards and technicians who control nuclear weapons in Pakistan. How can Pakistan Army Generals trust any results of the personnel security system, if the personnel vetting system fails to filter extremists? For that matter, can the civilian government trust the generals?

Old hands counted and tracked the colonels and generals with beards because they were the men openly sympathetic to fundamentalist Islam, unless they were Sikhs.

The Pakistani security system might catch an Indian spy, but it will not even search for an Islamist extremist who might try to steal fissile material so as to use it against blasphemers, heretics or infidels. The greatest threat to internal stability is from true believers already inside the Pakistani security forces, not from the Pakistani Taliban.

Finally, the statements of approval of murder and the encomiums for the assassin arise from an alien culture and spotlight the distance between western and Islamic ideas of life and its worth. The Muslim scholars never read John Donne's "Meditation #XVII". Or, having read it, rejected it.

John Donne wrote it after the Renaissance and Henry VIII had rejected the Roman Catholic domination. Moreover he was Puritan. Wrong analogy.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 06 Jan 2011 22:42

I'll just write one last thing about the rigidity of thought - which headline is more consonant with the goals of this forum:

"Pakistani governor, shady character, gunned down".

"Pakistani governor, champion of minorities, gunned down".

Remember that most people almost everywhere are not going to read much more detail than this headline. Considering the effect of the headline, which one would you rather see?

BTW, I see the goal of this forum as
a. the collapse and end of the Pakistan ideology (what happens to the people and land is outside the scope of this particular goal)
b. ensuring that any aspect of this ideology does not leak into and infect susceptible elements in India.

No more on this topic from me.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Jan 2011 22:50

way I see it, US/UK/France/Russia had no issue if Hitler had restricted himself to just gassing and murdering jews and romani peoples. nobody would have entered a war on their behalf. its when he invaded most of europe and hit the economy/soverignty thats when they ganged up.

likewise if japan had focussed on just conquering and terrorising mainland china instead of trying to take over colonial lands lika malaya, singapore, philipines, the UK and the US would not have an issue.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 06 Jan 2011 22:51

My understanding is that the right answer is

"Pakistani governor, shady character, gunned down".

surinder · Post by **surinder** » 06 Jan 2011 22:51

AjayKK wrote:Even the Wikipedia article fixes shaheed to his name :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghazi_Ilm-ud-din_Shaheed

The wiki article is a load of cr@p. It reads like a hagiographic eulogy to this man. The URL of the page has two words "Ghazi" and "Shaheed" which already are an indicator of the intent of the writers.

Incidently, there is a shrine to this gentlemen in Lahore, where apparantly people pray and miracles are ascribed to prayers there.

To each its own.

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 06 Jan 2011 23:12

Pakistan-Multiple Crises-Vikram Sood

Two to three years has been the average life span of elected governments in Pakistan ever since Z A Bhutto was PM from 1973 to 1977. His daughter Benazir alternated with her rival Nawaz Sharif from 1988 till 1999 when the Mian Sahib was overthrown by yet another saviour in Khak General Pervez Musharraf.
And both former Prime Ministers were forced into exile.
Thus, going by past precedents the present combine of President Asif Ali Zardari and Prime Minister Yousef Raza Gilani would now seem to have run out of its allotted time. Several crises confront the PPP led government and there are no easy solutions, quite a few outside the range of the PPP leadership's capabilities to solve them.

The General has been driving a hard bargain with the Americans successfully as he silently strengthens his hold both on the system and the armed forces. Quite obviously, General Kayani has an agenda that goes beyond just refurbishing the image of the Army with generous assistance from the US. A professional Army does not need three year extensions in service to its Chief beyond the stipulated term unless the agenda is wider and political or ominously, even military and strategic.

Zardari and Gilani are resigned to having to deal with an over bearing Army since this is the way of political life in Pakistan. But they have other disadvantages compared to their main political rival, Mian Nawaz Sharif and his PML (N) or even their ally the MQM led by Altaf Hussain both of who command personal loyalties and have strong cadre based parties.

Nawaz controls the Punjab, while Altaf controls Karachi. Gilani and Zardari are comparative lightweights in the PPP and do not command that kind of respect that these two do within their parties and people

In a free and fair election, Nawaz could possibly sweep Punjab and he who wins Punjab rules Pakistan. This is possibly Kayani's threat to the Americans at this juncture a few months before they plan their pull out. In the present crisis, perhaps Nawaz himself would not want to take over the reins of office so it suits him to see the government further weakened. He would rather wait it out unless an election is thrust upon him.

The MQM crisis is somewhat different. While the world's attention has been focused on the war in FATA against the Taliban and Al Qaeda in the NWFP (Khyber-Pukhtunkhwa) ethnic and religious violence has been increasing alarmingly in Karachi. The MQM has for years complained and feared that the ingress of Pushtuns from the frontier many of whom are Talibanised would tilt the balance away from them while the activities of religious parties like the Deobandi parties like Lashkar e Jhangvi would further erode its hold in urban Sindh especially Karachi and Hyderabad. There is another complication in that politically the Mohajirs support the MQM, the Sindhis support the PPP and the Pushtun support the Awami National Party. The latter two invariably combine against the MQM.

The Daily Times of Lahore reported that last year about 780 people were killed in ethnic, religious and political violence in Karachi which is similar to the suicide killings in the NWFP (797) and more than in the rest of the country (427).

(TSP is paradise except for the 2 bad bad regions. to hell with kuffrs

)

There is another development that could make the Army even more indispensible to the situation in today's Pakistan - the assassination of Salman Taseer the Punjab Governor and a close ally and friend of President Zardari, by one of his own guards for his opposition to Blasphemy Laws

( TSPA needs TSP and not the other way around

.)

The comments that were visible on Twitter and Facebook supporting the assassin were a chilling indicator of the direction Pakistan had taken in recent years. Killing for religion is frightening enough but the reaction that has been visible is even more frightening. The diktat by the Jamaate Ahle Sunnat Pakistan that no Muslim should attend Taseer's funeral sends a chill down every liberal spine. The message to the liberal elite is - shut up and put up

(This is for wannabe WKKs)

Then there were several attacks on the symbols of Pak power since September 11, 2001 including the Army and obviously the rot had set in but all this was swept away in the larger interest of preserving the peace and fighting the larger American war.

Indian reactions
Some of us worry that this could have an adverse reaction in India. There is an overreaction in some sections about intolerance in India. We must learn to trust the Indian Muslim instead of assuming he will be influenced by events and thought processes or ideologies in Pakistan. In so doing we challenge his intelligence and doubt his loyalties. In Pakistan they demanded the funeral of Taseer be boycotted because he was a liberal, in India the Indian Muslim leaders refused to allow the killers of Mumbai 26/11 be buried on Indian soil because they were terrorists. That is the difference between them and us.
True there is a fringe element in India as in most democratic societies but it does not endanger the state in the manner it has in Pakistan where it is no longer a fringe element but may well have become mainstream. In fact, extreme belief has been state sponsored in Pakistan; not so in India. The trick is to marginalise the extreme fringe but not to frighten the mainstream. Reaction here tends to lose touch with Indian realities and creates more discord. Careless off the cuff remarks are more responsible for this sort of thing and do not make for responsible commentary.

Sumeet · Post by **Sumeet** » 06 Jan 2011 23:13

Wajid Shamsul Hasan, TSP ambassador to UK walks out of Sagarika's show on IBN because he finds question put to him too grilling.

http://ibnlive.in.com/videos/139574/ftn ... istan.html

CRS and SSridhar,

I have seen you guys rightly raising for BRFites an important point that these so called liberal pakistanis still hate India and hindus. That is something which must not be forgotten. But this program ends with Amitabh Mattoo and BRF fav. G Parthasarthy saluting them w/o any point being made to that effect.

Do watch the show if you guys have time.

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 07 Jan 2011 00:05

^^^^,
G Parthasarathy indicted the army for building these jihadi outfits which is scr*wing TSP. barelvi sect becoming jihadi is significant that a sect of sufi traditions becoming violent has implications for TSP.
wajid shamsul hassan denied it. blames american for all TSP's failures.
Mariana babar agreed with GP. but said that army is selective in taking only non pakjabi jihadis. she wanted army to take on every jihadi including pakjabis.

GP went on to say uncle will not leave af pak but will thin out with time.with better relations with russia, more routes will open and dependence on pakis will reduce. uncle might enter to destroy safe heavens in pak.
during this, there were a few screen shots--
less than 10 blasphemy cases till 1985, since then over 4000 cases.

no wonder TSP is on opium of the masses.

sagarika at the last mentioned that wajid left the show as it became uncomfortable.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 07 Jan 2011 00:08

A_Gupta wrote: BTW, I see the goal of this forum as
a. the collapse and end of the Pakistan ideology (what happens to the people and land is outside the scope of this particular goal)
b. ensuring that any aspect of this ideology does not leak into and infect susceptible elements in India.

On this I agree with you.

But your second goal runs against your own liberal world view (live and let live). I wonder what would be your choice when you face such situation.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 07 Jan 2011 00:10

Again he has a right to have his views.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 07 Jan 2011 00:33

Ramana,

If he has a right to have his views do others have a right to counter his so called views or does the grace only extend one way? I was not even going to respond after archan intervened, but your impassioned defence of his somewhat woolly headed views compels me to reply.

I find many of his claims to be dubious and after the event rationalizations to his initial emotional reaction to the death of Taseer. When it was pointed out that Taseer was a jerk of the nth order, he threw a fit about how like the Indian soldier (what a self comparison!) we must and should respect the opponent. The Indian soldier indeed!

I ask, why? For what reason, should I or anyone who chooses not to, should respect such a loathsome individual such as Taseer, who got his comeuppance at the hands of the same type of extremists whose cause he championed for Kashmir. Was Taseers liberalism absent when his champions ran riot in Kashmir abducting & assaulting Pandit women?

Next, A Gupta makes a silly and absolutely unjustifiable attempt to spin away his original comparison of comparing mullahs to "hindus and nationalists" and then cloaks it in garb of objectivity. If he was indeed that objective, why would he even bother with the folks here not acknowledging that Taseer was a "herrow" or whatever, who did one good thing in his life.
Objectivity would demand he'd just ignore it and move on.
Are we Indians to be bothered that Musharraf did one good thing, after the deaths of Kalia & co, and the fates they suffered? You yourself have posted about the impact on Kalias family, can you tell me where this relativism ends as demonstrated by A Gupta, about acknowledging "one good thing". And then folks here bemoan about how India lacks the instinct to tackle Pakistan, how Indian politicians demean the majority, and are turning turncoats and what not. When the average Indian liberal, demonstrates such passive aggressive instincts, they will be exploited.

He writes:

I mean to say that there is a certain rigidity of thought that accompanies a lot of the nationalist and the Hindu narrative - e.g., see Koenraad Elst on intellectual bankruptcy of the RSS. You don't want to acknowledge it, that is fine.

Again, what the heck does "intellectual bankruptcy of the RSS" have to do with the death of Taseer? If this is not a flame bait, couched in intellectual gibberish, then what is! When was the last time, the RSS actually assassinated its opponents who denigrate it? This is a profound example of the supremely woolly headed "==" that permeates the liberal groupthink, and which is why it is so dangerous to the indian body politic. Whenever any attempt is made to identify the Pakistani terror threat, there is always the "liberal voice" which chimes in about "how they are people like us" and after all "India has the RSS and BJP too".

The response of the right wing to e.g. Laine on Shivaji, has been pretty much like the mullahs - throw a riot. If you take away those tactics, what becomes clear is that the only answer is to develop a corresponding Indian scholarship that has the same academic standing as Laine and that can answer him. That is a long-term program however. It also requires the development of a certain objectivity. You want to call that weakness, so be it. Having to adhere to some ideological line, and saying that only expression within those boundaries is acceptable, is a weakness and not a strength.

This is again dubious logic of the highest order. There are dime a dozen people who counter the likes of Laine et al with logic in private conversations but the state of affairs in India is such that to go against the holy grail of secularism and "western scholarship" means that one gets tagged a fundamentalist! Such claims that the right wing does not respond are even more humorous when seen in the light of the revelations about the likes of Dutt & Sanghvi and their political loyalties.
He who owns the waves/channels gets to decide what is shown. India has no Fox or really neutral commentators to sponsor intellectual retorts against the likes of Laine.

All said and done, the likes of the Sena riot because they see a political angle in tapping into public anger about such issues which are denied by the intelligentsia. And forget the Sena, the so called Islamist whom you were identifying Ramana, was infamous for his antics around being mild saffron in his earlier avatar. In other words, politics at its highest.

All said and done though, bringing in the Sena et al to a discussion about Pakistanis, is another self goal. The mullahs dont riot, they murder. They dont ransack the odd place, breaking a few chairs and light fixtures, after the press has arrived, they have suicide bombers attack, and have the survivors machine gunned. Where is the comparison.

Another way of looking at it is that you are attacking what I said not with facts ,nor with logic but with "it is weakness", "it is dhimmitude". Well, in Pakistan, the mullahs say "it is not Islam".

Sorry but this is dhimmitude when it comes to Pakistan. The pleas about acknowledging this Taseer characters "one act of bravery" all the while insisting that they are are opponents, do fall into that domain. Bat Yeor defined ""dhimmitude [...] represents a behavior dictated by fear (terrorism), pacifism when aggressed, rather than resistance, servility because of cowardice and vulnerability" (Wiki) & in my opinion at the very least, this sort of useless pacifism when it comes to the likes of Taseer is dhimmitude & his burden to bear, and not one to be shared by necessarily everyone.

But all said & done, this last statement takes the cake about the claims of "objectivity".

Finally, I claim that the objectivity is very much part of our tradition, whether you see what Rama said on the death of Ravana or Krishna said on the death of Duryodhana, and so on.

Yeah, sure! Lets take Krishna, who did all he could to defeat the Kauravas by all means necessary, and his comments about whatever they were, were after the fact the enemy was destroyed and dharma done, and lets extend that to todays Pakistani elite who are Indias enemies & we are yet to strike them any blow! If India had the same instinct, then Pakistan would not exist, and yes, all of us could make a few throwaway lines about whatever these people were and should be, once they were given their just desserts. As compared to making a hue and cry about how we should acknowledge the "one good thing Taseer did".

And I find that last post about objectives to be equally hilarious. Shady guy who got assasinated? Sure, from Aguptas posts one would never get that impression. In fact, its Arjun & the rest who brought up this mans sordid past and antics.

If A Gupta wants to respect Taseer for his "one brave act" by all means let him revel in his "true liberalism" but for several of us apparently, the man was a bigot, a jerk, and a privileged boor who got gunned down by the very vipers he supported.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 07 Jan 2011 00:41

Interview of Syed Salahuddin of Hizb-Ul-Mujahideen from a safe house in Pindi.
Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Im5-CHU-TY
Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEULEyJcoGo
Part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWmnLZsyPLk
Part 4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kiynXy2YVrA

Bechary, Badi dukh bhari kahani hai.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 07 Jan 2011 01:04

KaranM, you can counter his arguments but not attack him.

Also recall its all about TSP.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 07 Jan 2011 01:09

Sumeet wrote:Wajid Shamsul Hasan, TSP ambassador to UK walks out of Sagarika's show on IBN because he finds question put to him too grilling.

http://ibnlive.in.com/videos/139574/ftn ... istan.html

CRS and SSridhar,

I have seen you guys rightly raising for BRFites an important point that these so called liberal pakistanis still hate India and hindus. That is something which must not be forgotten. But this program ends with Amitabh Mattoo and BRF fav. G Parthasarthy saluting them w/o any point being made to that effect.

Do watch the show if you guys have time.

I am at work, so only watched a bit; will watch later this evening from home. But my own views is this. India showing profuse symapthy for TSP "liberals" like our oun A_Gupta is not only naive, but also condescending. Its none of our f$%&ing business. What must matter to us is that Tassir or Quadir, they are all hard-core Jihadis when it comes to attacking us. That should be the focus. When India starts talking about "liberalism" and "extremism" in TSP, TSP will hit back with equal equal, and so will the west. Already Steve Coll, western "expert" compared the killing of "liberal" Tasser by his bodyguard with Indira Gandhi's assasination by her body guard.

Bottom line: instead of useless interviews, and crying for TSP about "extremism destroying TSP" etc, I would prefer that MEA issue a terse statement along these lines: We condemn the assasination of Tassir by these kinds of groups that TSP continues to sponsor against India and Afganisthan. The govt of TSP must confront all kinds of extermists without making a distinction, and international community must push TSP in this regard (something like this will put US also in a dock).