Internal Security Watch

ManjaM · Post by **ManjaM** » 08 Jan 2011 22:26

In another incident, hundreds of activists belonging to similar Tamil separatist organisations such as Tamil Desiya Iyakkam (Tamil National Movement) and Tamizhar Ilaignar Iyakkam (Tamilian Youth Movement) apart from MDMK (Marumalarchi Dravida Munnetra Kazhagam), PDK (Periyar Dravidar Kazhagam) and PUCL (Peoples Union of Civil Liberties) attacked an army convoy in Coimbatore in May 2009. This attack was also in support of the LTTE and against the Indian government.
Though hundreds of hooligans were involved in both the incidents, only a handful was arrested. The police registered cases against those goondas under sections 147 (unlawful assembly), 188 (disobedience to an order promulgated by a government servant) of the Indian Penal Code and Section 2 of the Prevention of Insults to National Honour Act, 1971 (amended 2003) and only three were slapped with the National Security Act. Later all of them were released on bail after mild punishments.
Initial investigations and interrogation of the apprehended hooligans confirmed a huge conspiracy behind the daring act of attacking Army convoy. The Police registered cases against 250 persons including Ramakrishnan, general secretary of PDK, Ponchandran of PUCL, and Sivapriyan of Tamil Nationalist Movement. Many hooligans have allegedly escaped to Chennai and Madurai and crossed over to Kerala.
The police were able to identify the culprits and gather evidence against them from complete video recordings collected from media personnel. The police strongly suspected that many culprits could have crossed over to Kerala as pro-LTTE elements have a safe refuge there in the coastal areas. PDK leader Ramakrishnan reportedly had close connections with LTTE boss Prabhakaran, and according to police records, even visited North Lanka to meet him in the 1980s; he reportedly conducted photo-exhibitions on the war-front and sufferings of Lankan Tamils.
Besides the pro-LTTE and Tamil-chauvinist elements, the involvement of PUCL members gave a different dimension to the issue. The Chennai edition of The Times of India (May 4, 2009) reported that PUCL members were involved in the attack. In the past two decades, PUCL has been known to have become a front for Naxalites, Maoists and Jihadis, and its sustained campaign against the Army in Kashmir and in support of secessionists and terrorits in the name of human rights, is characteristic of its anti-establishment functioning. It has acted against the governments in Gujarat and Odisha (Kandhamal) in the aftermath of communal riots.
It must be noted that Binayak Sen, PUCL vice president, was incarcerated in Chhattisgarh for allegedly helping Maoists. It was also reported in the media that PUCL office bearers like Kavitha Srivastava attended the ‘National Political Conference’ in February 2009 in Calicut, organised by the ‘Popular Front of India,’ an amalgamation of Islamic terror outfits.
Most PUCL office-bearers (majority of them advocates) are involved in activities helping terrorist and separatist forces in the name of ‘human rights; KG Kannabiran, president PUCL, is one of those “celebrities”, who have advocated ‘clemency’ for terrorists like Afzal Guru. The organisation gave a tough time to the government and men in uniform in support of Rajiv Gandhi’s assassins and sandalwood brigand Veerappan’s aides.

Innocent Doctor Binayak Sen seems to have his fingers to have some varied interests from health of Maoists, helping maoists find rental accomodation, providing legal advice to jailed inmates and finally to attacking army convoys. What a multi faceted personality. No wonder people from all walks of life are demanding his release. Everyone loves a good anarchist.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 08 Jan 2011 22:59

One of the reasons that the Congress [or the eponymous Indian post-colonial state] may see the RSS as the greatest threat but not any of the well-known Islamic netwrks like the Deoband system, or the Presbyterian or Southern Church structures could be that Indian state elite who came to power thought of non-Hindu organizations as not serious competition.

The Indian state actually behaves quite differently when its the case of RSS/VHP etc and when it is the case of the Deobandi Ulema Council or the Presbyterian Synod of Mizoram. In Mizoram, the Synod and its adjunct organization the YMA is quite closely intetwined with the functioing of the state. Here the Synod and the YMA serves as an "acceptable" and perhaps desired mode of social control. The success of this missionary enterprise in Mizoram - where it openly and declaredly started with Brits who wanted to neutralize the power of the Lushai Chiefs - was aimed primarily to increase state control over the society.

The current Indian state could be scared that RSS/VHP could play a similar role and then just like the Synod/YMA situation in Mizoram, the state would be forced to accept the social control exercised by the majority community structures. No Indian "official" and "concerned humanitarians" never dare say that the Mizo "identity" that has been constructed is an exculisvist one which is based on religion (Christianity) and language (Lushai).

This is where the threat and "foreignness" perceptions of the Indian state comes out. So that the Mizo uprisings or terror attacks became legitimate grievances of the people, and people always sought automatic justifications for terror attacks as coming out of some mythical "grievance" which was also legitimate. The Naxal threat in Bengal and the Khalistani threat in Punjab were unhesitatingly crushed in very similar manner, with no attempts at all in trying to find any justification of grievance etc. However the same was not done with Naxals of Andhra - at least not in the same period.

However, the Islamist derivatives of the militant Razakars of Hyderabad were brought out of limbo and politically rehabilitated. The Mizo violence was projected as coming out of genuine popular grievance, etc. In general any Leftist violence is always seen as having legitimate sources in grievance, etc.

Can we so easily dismiss that the Indian state looks at organized violence differentlly, based on the region, community and religion it apparently is being sourced from?

vijayk · Post by **vijayk** » 08 Jan 2011 23:40

http://www.indiatoday.intoday.in/site/S ... -grip.html
In 2nd stint, UPA govt losing grip: India Today poll

This is apparent in the "India Today-AC Nielsen-ORG-MARG Mood of the Nation Poll" that captures the essence of the weakened Congress-led UPA where Manmohan Singh is merely a dutiful and dependable Prime Minister devoid of any controversies.

The real leader of the dispensation - Sonia Gandhi - too has failed to inspire, it seems. According to the poll, the Congress chief and UPA chairperson occupies the fifth position in the list of ideal candidates for PM, nowhere near the original 'Mrs Gandhi' - Indira. Sonia received eight per cent of the votes, below Rahul Gandhi (20) I wonder if we are are too dumb or is it because he is attractive gora and shown on TV positively by boot licking media , Atal Bihari Vajpayee (17), Singh (17) and Narendra Modi (9). Under UPA-I, Sonia fared better by receiving 27.

Though Rahul remains the most popular Congress leader, his rating has dropped by nine points during the past six months. Even so the Congress may go by popularity in choosing Rahul as the PM candidate. According to the poll, 50 per cent think Rahul is ready to take over.

The UPA's popularity, too, is on the decline. It has dropped to 212-222 seats from the 246-256 seats since the last India Today poll in August 2010. This is about 42 seats less than its 2009 Lok Sabha tally of 259. On the other hand, the BJP-led NDA alliance is showing signs of a revival. In the poll, it is projected to win 174-184 seats, whichis a 20-seat jump from the 159 it had won in the last elections. May be after all, our voters may slowly understanding the game of Digvijay sick man and Clown Prince's uttering.

ompared to this, the BJP's performance is improving across these categories. In the first two, the gap between the two parties was on an average 8 per cent in mid-2010. Now it is just three. The BJP has done better despite the fact that 73 per cent don't know the name of the Opposition leader.

The party's performance is best in six years, with 36 per cent rating it as good. BJP president Nitin Gadkari receives a "good" from 28 per cent and "average" from 31 per cent. According to the poll, in Madhya Pradesh, Gujarat, Chhattisgarh and Karnataka - where the party is in power - it continues to keep its majority intact. CMs Shivraj Singh Chouhan, Modi and Raman Singh get kudos for that. Keep hammering JPC, 2G, Bofors without bringing the name of Sonia

May be the there is awakening among Indian public. I wish BJP at this juncture push for serious reforms bill as dramatic as Primaries or announce experimental Primary election in one state. That will make a lot of people seriously look at it.

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 09 Jan 2011 00:32

^ if after all this corruption & price rise, congress looses only 20 seats then there is nothing to worry for it.
seems nothing will awaken the masses.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 09 Jan 2011 00:40

shyamd wrote:^^Read some of my posts on the subject in TN. On the ground - its ordinary people fighting this, spending out of their pocket to prevent conversions and the cheating thats going on.

TN announced a review of charity orphanages in the state- re submit license applications. Quite a few have been closed down as a result.

For example, in my local area, a pastor was giving local dalits holy water and preaching. And all of a sudden some of the older men were saying that their knees were getting healed and better. A doctor sent the water for tests and found out that they had put some steroids in there. The dalits had replaced their lungi's for trousers. So others were like WTF going on here? Once the test reports for steroids came out, a few locals (educated guys) out of their own initiative took on the pastor and his helpers - threats were made "you come around here again and we'll chop your legs off etc". That sorted that out. Swamiyars from nearby town called in to re-educate the dalits.

All local initiative of people.

Read my previous posts on Bihari gangs kidnapping kids and selling them to christian orphanages in TN. It led to state govt announcing a census and a review of licenses for all NGO's/oprphanages etc.

Interesting. Actually the anti-conversion bill that was passed by Chidu during the last (the one that actually conducted biz) parl session will be hugely beneficial in dealing with the NGO menace.

arjunm · Post by **arjunm** » 09 Jan 2011 07:17

'Saffron terror' a UPA conspiracy: Gadkar

http://www.timesnow.tv/Saffron-terror-a ... 362245.cms

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 09 Jan 2011 07:47

Some tit for tat policy has to be done. Links between anti-state actors/criminals and INC politicians in non-UPA states should be looked into.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 09 Jan 2011 07:51

If the plethora of rajas - A raja, Diggy raja, yuvaraja - and who knows how many more rajas to come haven't dented INC's poll prospects much, hope is lost already. The country deserves another 15 yrs of INC rule perhaps, as chidu mentioned in an interview a few days ago. Sadly, even that maynot cure the malaise.

In any case, the UPA's overt politicisation and communalization of internal security, its apparatus, laws and targets has changed the game already. Hopefully its not irreversible but in another 5-10 yrs it will well be, I fear.

arunsrinivasan · Post by **arunsrinivasan** » 09 Jan 2011 08:08

Muppalla wrote:
shyamd wrote:^^Read some of my posts on the subject in TN. On the ground - its ordinary people fighting this, spending out of their pocket to prevent conversions and the cheating thats going on.

TN announced a review of charity orphanages in the state- re submit license applications. Quite a few have been closed down as a result.

For example, in my local area, a pastor was giving local dalits holy water and preaching. And all of a sudden some of the older men were saying that their knees were getting healed and better. A doctor sent the water for tests and found out that they had put some steroids in there. The dalits had replaced their lungi's for trousers. So others were like WTF going on here? Once the test reports for steroids came out, a few locals (educated guys) out of their own initiative took on the pastor and his helpers - threats were made "you come around here again and we'll chop your legs off etc". That sorted that out. Swamiyars from nearby town called in to re-educate the dalits.

All local initiative of people.

Read my previous posts on Bihari gangs kidnapping kids and selling them to christian orphanages in TN. It led to state govt announcing a census and a review of licenses for all NGO's/oprphanages etc.
Interesting. Actually the anti-conversion bill that was passed by Chidu during the last (the one that actually conducted biz) parl session will be hugely beneficial in dealing with the NGO menace.

Did Chidu pass such a bill? I searched and couldn't find anything on it.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 09 Jan 2011 08:51

Chidu has passed a bill that is not named that way. It will be there in one of the past 50 pages of this thread. It is called with some foreign contibutions to NGOs etc. In that there is a clause where government can take action if the NGOs that actually work in altering the indegeneous cluture. The bill is very useful in curbing the conversions. I am just lazy but I will find it out and post here. If you are eager, check it out in the previous pages of this thread.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 09 Jan 2011 08:57

Ok I found it

Read it here
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 12#p931712

sum · Post by **sum** » 09 Jan 2011 09:18

IB sleuths arrest 7-member gang in Bhatkal

KARWAR: Sleuths of the Intelligence Bureau (IB) on Saturday took into custody a gang of seven persons in Bhatkal; the men had allegedly committed crimes in Kuala Lumpur (Malaysia) and underwent punishment there.

The detained persons were identified as Sajjad Musba of Kidwai road, Gobaru Sajit Umar and Rizwan Raza Siddique of Nawayat Colony, Dollar Unis Sadiq Damuda of Venkatapur, Mohammad Gous Kappa of Mugdum Colony, Anda Unis of Karagadda and Sidique Damuda Abu Bantaru of Jamia Road of Bhatkal. These men reportedly went to Kuala Lumpur and prepared 38 fake passports in different names. They allegedly withdrew Rs. 200 crore from the Kalo Ganti Lise Bank with fake names. Another person, Ashit Agarwal of Mumbai, was with these seven people while committing the crime, the sources said.

On August 16, they were caught by the Malaysian police and sentenced to jail by the court there. They were reportedly released from jail on December 6 and after that they reached Bangalore by air on January 6. The IB arrested them on charges of misuse of passport.

The investigating agencies are checking whether the money fraudulently withdrawn by them was routed to any terrorist organisation in India or outside the country, the sources said.

sum · Post by **sum** » 09 Jan 2011 09:30

Curious case of Qasmani, who US,UN named in bombing

The revelations in the Samjhauta bombing case have brought the spotlight back on Arif Qasmani, a Lashkar-e-Toiba financier, who has been designated a global terrorist for “facilitating” the Samjhauta attack as well as the 2006 Mumbai local train bombings.

Now that investigators are convinced that Samjhauta was attacked by Hindu extremists led by Aseemanand, South Block officials are wondering about Qasmani.

Pakistan had always pointed a finger at India-based groups for the attack, but its voice became feeble after the US Treasury Department designated Qasmani a global terrorist in June 2009. This was followed by the UN placing Qasmani under the 1267 Al-Qaeda and Taliban sanctions list.{ And now INC will ensure Pakis grow louder}

“In return for Qasmani’s support, Al-Qaida provided him with operatives to support the July 2006 train bombing in Mumbai, India, and the February 2007 Samjota Express bombing in Panipat, India. Qasmani also facilitated the movement of Al-Qaida personnel out of Afghanistan in 2001,” states the UN’s narrative summary justifying the action against Qasmani. The US justification is similar.

Senior government sources now say US agencies linked Qasmani with the Samjhauta case on their own, and that India had nothing to do with it. Unlikely as it may appear that the US did not share this detail with Indian authorities, the fact is that New Delhi did not reject this either and, in fact, used it to tell Islamabad that Samjhauta was plotted in Pakistan.

Qasmani last came on the radar of Indian interrogators some time in 2004-05, during the interrogation of one Abdul Razaq, a Hyderabad resident who, inspired by extremists, went to Pakistan-Occupied Kashmir. Razaq revealed that he had first seen Qasmani in Muzaffarabad, while he was in the service of Lashkar-e-Toiba founder Hafiz Saeed.

Saeed had introduced Razaq to Qasmani, and after discussions, it had been decided that Razaq would travel to Karachi with Qasmani and work for him there. According to US agencies, Qasmani was close to Dawood Ibrahim, through whom he plotted the Mumbai train attacks.

According to Razaq’s interrogation, Qasmani was a wealthy Karachi businessman who owned several vehicle showrooms. He was also a key LeT financier but as Razaq revealed, Qasmani had begun having serious differences with Saeed by 2003-04.

Qasmani apparently wanted LeT to actively participate in the Taliban-Al Qaeda campaign against the West. Under ISI patronage, Saeed firmly rejected this line.

That, however, did not stop Qasmani, who had begun to strengthen his links in North and South Waziristan. Razaq has admitted that he was routinely assigned to accompany vehicles with all kinds of aid to Pakistan’s northwestern parts.

Soon, the differences with Saeed became unmanageable and Qasmani split from the LeT and formed a group called Khair-un-Nas.

Razaq, who is now in Hyderabad prison, maintained that most of the aid was humanitarian in nature but he would provide logistic help and shelter to Al Qaeda and Taliban members. This was believed to have irked the ISI which leaned on Saeed to move against Qasmani. When these attempts failed, the agency seems to have moved against him on its own.

Subsequently, it came to light that Qasmani’s family had filed a police complaint some time in November 2005 that he had suddenly gone missing. They later alleged that he had been picked up by security agencies. The Mumbai train attacks happened in July 2006 and Samjhauta in February 2007 — and Razaq could not explain in whose care Qasmani was at that time.

He had left a little before that, Razaq said, after an Iraqi mujahid, who worked for some time in Af-Pak, called him to wage jihad in Iraq.

Razaq was held by Iranian officials on the Iraq border and sent back to India, where he was arrested on arrival. He is the last man to have spoken about Qasmani to Indian interrogators.

And we continue to score self goal after self goal!!

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 09 Jan 2011 11:33

Arjun wrote:I am specifically referring to NSCN and NLFT. And as for your claim that NSCN does not harp on religiosity as a factor, this is the Nth time you have been blatantly wrong with facts - I guess such trivial things as being correct with your facts is not a consideration for you?

NSCN- please do some reading. The NSCN explicitly calls for establishing a Socialist "Christian" state in the areas inhabited by the Naga people. Its manifesto is based on a principle that it calls 'Nagaland for Christ’.

Wrong with facts? Like claims of "muslim" nations being congenitally unsuccessful?

About NSCM, to argue that the Naga issue is about "Christian terror" is naive, ignores the complex inter (and intra)-tribal group issues, and motivations thereof..Almost 100% of the Nagas are christians (most of them baptists), but they cant even decide who is their rightful rep - IM or Khaplang, Tangkhul and Konyaks have en masse difering loyalties..The Naga case, articulated for long Phizo downwards to Isaac Swu and Muivah, has seldom (if ever) had religious overtones... Unfortunately, convenient religious stereotyping of complex issues does not make for understanding the dynamics and possible solutions...

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 09 Jan 2011 12:07

somnath wrote:Wrong with facts? Like claims of "muslim" nations being congenitally unsuccessful?

Precisely. That's Exhibit#1 of your fancy claims. My statement was that the image of Islam in the West is HURTING the chances of Muslim nations in winning larger volume of trade and business from the same West. Do you want me to dig up references to where I have repeatedly made this statement? Or are you implying that MY statement is a falsehood? OR is it that you are implying that I am biased against Muslim nations because I claim that they could have won much more business from the West if the image of Islam in the West was better?

Exhibit#2: Your claim that NSCM is not religiously motivated, when it's manifesto calls for 'Nagalim for Christ'

Exhibit#3: Your stupendous claim that reputation / image take a lot to build up and takes a lot to demolish...do you have any idea of the books and literature written on the exact opposite of your statement?

Exhibit#4: Your repeated assertions that the judgement against Binayak mentions the ISI goof-up despite several posts that have categorically dispelled the falsehood.

somnath wrote:About NSCM, to argue that the Naga issue is about "Christian terror" is naive, ignores the complex inter (and intra)-tribal group issues, and motivations thereof..Almost 100% of the Nagas are christians (most of them baptists), but they cant even decide who is their rightful rep - IM or Khaplang, Tangkhul and Konyaks have en masse difering loyalties..The Naga case, articulated for long Phizo downwards to Isaac Swu and Muivah, has seldom (if ever) had religious overtones... Unfortunately, convenient religious stereotyping of complex issues does not make for understanding the dynamics and possible solutions...

Ok. I really want to understand this fantastic assertion in more detail. So, if Abhinav Bharat were to come out with a manifesto that aims at having Gujarat secede from the Indian union so as to establish a 'Ram Rajya' and a true Hindu republic, and if it starts an armed uprising against the Indian state, including killing civilians- that would make it's agenda not really religious, and it is not to be called a terrorist organization - correct?

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 09 Jan 2011 18:38

Arjun,

Points scoring of the petty type does not enrich a debate...So please...Lets concentrate on analysing the real meat of the issue than trying to find mistakes...Though if I may, I would point out the follwoing..

Arjun wrote:That's Exhibit#1 of your fancy claims. My statement was that the image of Islam in the West is HURTING the chances of Muslim nations in winning larger volume of trade and business from the same West

I have been simply referring to this claim that you made:

To put it slightly more crudely, in today's environment - a largely Muslim country could never have hoped to reach the same position even if Muslim nations somehow developed the knowledge and entrepreneurial strengths to compete

To which I have only pointed out that there is no question of a "somehow", there are lots of muslim countries that have done far better than us in the human development sweepstakes already...

Arjun wrote:Exhibit#3: Your stupendous claim that reputation / image take a lot to build up and takes a lot to demolish...do you have any idea of the books and literature written on the exact opposite of your statement

Do take out some time to read national histories - you will find that nation states do not have their "reputations", either for cruelty, ruthlessness, economic savvvy, technical leadership, or wealth, or innovation, destroyed easily...It takes decades, if not centuries of internal rotting (ie, degeneration of the actual cpability, not just image) for national reputations to be changed...A slightly dated book, but a relevant one nevertheless, would be Michael Porter's Competitive Advantage of Nations (1990 I think) - check out how much time it took the British to lose their "reputation" on economic mercantilism and innovation...For India, my limited point was that there is so much that is contnuously reinforcing the positives every moment that a few soundbytes by assorted politicians dont make a diff....If I am not mistaken, thee day Diggy raja made that Karkare comment , the latest quarterly GDP numbers got released - and globally, that makes many more "images" in relevant quarters than diggy raja.....

Arjun wrote:Exhibit#4: Your repeated assertions that the judgement against Binayak mentions the ISI goof-up despite several posts that have categorically dispelled the falsehood

Well, I never said that it was part of the judgement, only that it was presented as evidence (by prosecution)...Here is what I said..

Even to a non-legal mind like me, grounds for conviction look amazingly thin (evidence includes a letter from Ilina Sen referrgin to ISI , btw, she was referring to the Indian Sociological Institute)..

The limited point again was that with prosecution having to present evidence like these (and more liek the one on "chimpanzee in the White house") a conviction seems really a stretch....

About NSCM and christianity, in case it was "christian" angst against a Hindu state, pretty much entire Nagaland is Christian, has been since the 19th century...And if the primary reason was religion, why such iontense tribal rivalries? So much so that the K faction is said to be backed yb the Army? And why are both factions now negotiating for a space in "secular" India? The motivations are a lot more complex than simple religious divides..

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 09 Jan 2011 18:48

somnath,

how much time did it take for Iran in 1979 to go from darling of west to enemy? How much time did it take for Saddam Hussein?
How much time did it take for Toyota to build its reliability reputation and loose it? Enron was a big big brand before, now? Right until 1800's from centuries before Golconda was famous for its diamonds so much that even US had a town on that name. now??

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 09 Jan 2011 19:15

Are'nt we going off topic....

Raghavendra · Post by **Raghavendra** » 09 Jan 2011 19:35

How Binayak Sen became a cause celebre
http://blogs.timesofindia.indiatimes.co ... se-celebre

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 09 Jan 2011 21:04

Muppalla wrote:Chidu has passed a bill that is not named that way. It will be there in one of the past 50 pages of this thread. It is called with some foreign contibutions to NGOs etc. In that there is a clause where government can take action if the NGOs that actually work in altering the indegeneous cluture. The bill is very useful in curbing the conversions. I am just lazy but I will find it out and post here. If you are eager, check it out in the previous pages of this thread.

India is not the only nation facing this threat of conversions. All over people are complaining about this.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 09 Jan 2011 21:24

somnath wrote:To which I have only pointed out that there is no question of a "somehow", there are lots of muslim countries that have done far better than us in the human development sweepstakes already...

Yawn...!! Let me repeat myself for the Nth time: my argument was with regard to Muslim nations' trade volume with the west, and more specifically the outsourcing business obtained from the West - and has nothing whatsoever to do with human development statistics.

Anyway, no more on the OT points from me.

Lets concentrate on what is relevant to this thread - which is the categorization of security challenges faced by the country. The fact remains that there are terror groups in the North East which are run on a specific Christian manifesto - and therefore, taking the same 'no exceptionalism' line that you had expounded - it is only right that this be categorized as Christian terrorism.

If you still do not agree, I would have to go back to my previous question which you have not answered - lets take a hypothetical case of Abhinav Bharat or some other crazy Hindutva organization that wants to have Gujarat secede so as to create a Ram Rajya and Hindu republic. You let me know what are the differences in the that scenario vs the NLFT or NSCM scenario and why you would not want to apply the same yardsticks in both cases.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 09 Jan 2011 21:44

Should we not also conclude then that the RSS/VHP/Bajrang Dal and small fry like Abhinav Bharat, even though have claimed religious position/posturings - have nothing to do with religion after all? Should not known intergroup rivalries among the above be proof enough to confirm that they are not motivated by religious affiliation? The fact that they are struggling for space in "secular" India is a proof that they are "secular" in thought, spirit, intent and ultimate objective in seeking such a space?

Further, that any violence that can be attributed to them is sourced from genuine "grievances" which should not be seen as a mere law and order problem? The Nagas and the Mizos have been Christians from the nineteenth century - if that proves no Christian hatred or hidden motivation among the political groupings from these regions against non-Christians, surely Hindus who have been Hindus at least from the advent of Islam on the subcontinent around a millenium ago - cannot have any hidden motivation of hatred against non-Hindus?

If the state can intimately use the Presbyterian Synod and YMA in Mizoram and collaborate with them, why is it impossible for teh state to collaborate and intimately work with the RSS which has a great deal of infuence and organizational infrastructure that can serve as exactly the same method of social control as used in Mizoram on behalf of the rashtra? Surely the "violence score" can be compared and conclusions should be obvious!

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 09 Jan 2011 23:22

shyamd wrote:
Muppalla wrote:Chidu has passed a bill that is not named that way. It will be there in one of the past 50 pages of this thread. It is called with some foreign contibutions to NGOs etc. In that there is a clause where government can take action if the NGOs that actually work in altering the indegeneous cluture. The bill is very useful in curbing the conversions. I am just lazy but I will find it out and post here. If you are eager, check it out in the previous pages of this thread.
India is not the only nation facing this threat of conversions. All over people are complaining about this.

This bill is only remarkable one that UPA-2 has passed quitely.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 09 Jan 2011 23:28

Muppalla wrote: This bill is only remarkable one that UPA-2 has passed quitely.

Being even more remarkable for the fact that this is almost the identical bill which was written by NDA but could not be passed.

I love Chidu, I have to be saying.

arjunm · Post by **arjunm** » 09 Jan 2011 23:50

I think preparation of something spectacular fraud that one we have seen before, rigging through EVM in earlier election, has already begun. Congress chair person can't afford to loose the grip of the power by any means.So the ground preparation using her rented men has started for to be sure to utilise those institutions in her party's favor for the next general election. No matter whther Pakis render another much bigger ,stunning terror attack and several thousands"Aam Admi" may loose their lives, or even if few other mega scams like 2Gs to be played out for more funds , or for the sake of reversing the disturbing trend of the Muslims voting for Modi and Nitish to order further torturous attacks on the Hindu God men & women using rabid Diggy dogs and the Police, so be it. The Congress chairperson will do anything to be sure that his dumb son will be able to crawl up to the PM gaddi Now HER majesty's one of many rented men is our new Election Commissioner "Qureshi" and he wants to stop all the pre-poll voting trend to hide behind the screen election FRAUD, to be sure Madam's party is on the driving seat.

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/127 ... -poll.html

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 09 Jan 2011 23:59

arjunm wrote:I think preparation of something spectacular fraud that one we have seen before, rigging through EVM in earlier election, has already begun. Congress chair person can't afford to loose the grip of the power by any means.So the ground preparation using her rented men has started for to be sure to utilise those institutions in her party's favor for the next general election. No matter whther Pakis render another much bigger ,stunning terror attack and several thousands"Aam Admi" may loose their lives, or even if few other mega scams like 2Gs to be played out for more funds , or for the sake of reversing the disturbing trend of the Muslims voting for Modi and Nitish to order further torturous attacks on the Hindu God men & women using rabid Diggy dogs and the Police, so be it. The Congress chairperson will do anything to be sure that his dumb son will be able to crawl up to the PM gaddi Now HER majesty's one of many rented men is our new Election Commissioner "Qureshi" and he wants to stop all the pre-poll voting trend to hide behind the screen election FRAUD, to be sure Madam's party is on the driving seat.

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/127 ... -poll.html

There is more than this that is happening I guess. The Nielsen polls are a pointer. However, I do't want to spoil this thread and write details here. I don't know which thread is appropriate. All the stuff related to EC and opinion polls are OT for this thread

arjunm · Post by **arjunm** » 10 Jan 2011 00:29

Muppalla wrote:
arjunm wrote:I think preparation of something spectacular fraud that one we have seen before, rigging through EVM in earlier election, has already begun. Congress chair person can't afford to loose the grip of the power by any means.So the ground preparation using her rented men has started for to be sure to utilise those institutions in her party's favor for the next general election. No matter whther Pakis render another much bigger ,stunning terror attack and several thousands"Aam Admi" may loose their lives, or even if few other mega scams like 2Gs to be played out for more funds , or for the sake of reversing the disturbing trend of the Muslims voting for Modi and Nitish to order further torturous attacks on the Hindu God men & women using rabid Diggy dogs and the Police, so be it. The Congress chairperson will do anything to be sure that his dumb son will be able to crawl up to the PM gaddi Now HER majesty's one of many rented men is our new Election Commissioner "Qureshi" and he wants to stop all the pre-poll voting trend to hide behind the screen election FRAUD, to be sure Madam's party is on the driving seat.

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/127 ... -poll.html
There is more than this that is happening I guess. The Nielsen polls are a pointer. However, I do't want to spoil this thread and write details here. I don't know which thread is appropriate. All the stuff related to EC and opinion polls are OT for this thread

Muppallaji,I am also not sure which thread it suits to discuss further ,I thought, it is kind of security related issue when some political party in power uses Govt.institutions to justify their fradulent criminal act in the name of democratic process.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 10 Jan 2011 08:21

Arjun wrote:Yawn...!! Let me repeat myself for the Nth time: my argument was with regard to Muslim nations' trade volume with the west, and more specifically the outsourcing business obtained from the West - and has nothing whatsoever to do with human development statistics.

Ahh, so it isnt "economic development", but only "trade" - it didnt come out so well in your claim, but unfortunately even this is a completely unfounded assertion..Both Malaysia and Indonesia have export-to-GDP ratios FAR in excess of India's...One request, it isnt necessary that all our beliefs are based on facts, and we canot always know everything - when hitherto unknown facts come out, it might be better to admit and move on?

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 10 Jan 2011 09:57

ravi_ku wrote:somnath,

how much time did it take for Iran in 1979 to go from darling of west to enemy? How much time did it take for Saddam Hussein?
How much time did it take for Toyota to build its reliability reputation and loose it? Enron was a big big brand before, now? Right until 1800's from centuries before Golconda was famous for its diamonds so much that even US had a town on that name. now??

In each of those cases, it took a lot really...

For Saddam, it took invasion and taking over of another country (and quite explicitly threatening the big daddy - Saudi Arabia)..For Enron, it took a massive fraud of the business itself! For Toyota, it took multiple gaffes, not just one, and multiple ham-handed responses to those for a knock...But Toyota remains the only AA-rated automaker in the world, and the largest auto company despite all the gaffes....

And in the extant case, you are referring to damage to India' "image" because a few politicians utter some rubbish?!

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 10 Jan 2011 11:32

somnath wrote:Ahh, so it isnt "economic development", but only "trade" - it didnt come out so well in your claim, but unfortunately even this is a completely unfounded assertion..Both Malaysia and Indonesia have export-to-GDP ratios FAR in excess of India's

Happy to debate this further with you...Let me know a suitable thread.

In the meantime, will await your response on the main issue raised, that is relevant to this thread.

arjunm · Post by **arjunm** » 10 Jan 2011 11:47

somnath wrote:
Arjun wrote:Yawn...!! Let me repeat myself for the Nth time: my argument was with regard to Muslim nations' trade volume with the west, and more specifically the outsourcing business obtained from the West - and has nothing whatsoever to do with human development statistics.
Ahh, so it isnt "economic development", but only "trade" - it didnt come out so well in your claim, but unfortunately even this is a completely unfounded assertion..Both Malaysia and Indonesia have export-to-GDP ratios FAR in excess of India's...One request, it isnt necessary that all our beliefs are based on facts, and we canot always know everything - when hitherto unknown facts come out, it might be better to admit and move on?

Indonesia and Malaysia both has many natural resources, tin, rubber and most importantly the OIL. Their major portion of export solely depend on this. Indonesia chief export is Oil where as Malaysia's Palm oil and rubber. There is no Industrial base for manufacturing "engineering / capital goods" developed neither any brilliant exemplary institution of learnings were built to supplement IT like knowledge based industries. So it should not be fair comparison when you compare with India which solely lack in such natural resources and has to depend on entirely on knowledge base IT, manufacturing,research base intellectual development. And that is why it took longer time and massive investment in human capital and other related infrastructures to produce the desired results... In 1990, India's export was 21 bil and within last two decades it has crossed 200 bil with out exporting God given natural resources as cash cow. . Another major characteristics of these countries unlike other Isalmic nations ,they proudly adopted many cultural significance from their past,Hinduism/Buddhism and it helped to amalgamate in diluting in shaping their version of much tolerant Islam. Also resource base export hardly help maintaining future economic growth unless invested in development of human capital related infrastructures.Indonesia's tourism solely show case BALI, a predominately Hindu island.

Here is a you tube video which shows Indonesian Archaeological department cancealed building Isalmic library to protect an ancient Hindu Temple structure, unearthed while digging for the construction. Very few Isalmic country would do that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_1-3IC6 ... re=related

Here isIndonesian economic growth pattern-

Asian Financial Crisis

The Asian Financial Crisis that began to affect Indonesia in mid-1997 became an economic and political crisis. Indonesia's initial response was to float the rupiah, raise key domestic interest rates, and tighten fiscal policy. In October 1997, Indonesia and the International Monetary Fund (IMF) reached agreement on an economic reform program aimed at macroeconomic stabilization and elimination of some of the country's most damaging economic policies, such as the National Car Program and the clove monopoly, both involving family members of President Suharto. The rupiah remained weak, however, and President Suharto was forced to resign in May 1998. In August 1998, Indonesia and the IMF agreed on an Extended Fund Facility (EFF) under President B.J Habibie that included significant structural reform targets. President Abdurrahman Wahid took office in October 1999, and Indonesia and the IMF signed another EFF in January 2000. The new program also has a range of economic, structural reform and governance targets.

The effects of the financial and economic crisis were severe. By November 1997, rapid currency depreciation had seen public debt reach US$60 bn, imposing severe strains on the government's budget.[12] In 1998, real GDP contracted by 13.7%. The economy reached its low point in mid-1999 and real GDP growth for the year was 0.3%. Inflation reached 77% in 1998 but slowed to 2% in 1999.

The rupiah, which had been in the Rp 2,600/USD1 range at the start of August 1997 fell to 11,000/USD1 by January 1998, with spot rates around 15,000 for brief periods during the first half of 1998.[13] It returned to 8,000/USD1 range at the end of 1998 and has generally traded in the Rp 8,000–10,000/USD1 range ever since, with fluctuations that are relatively predictable and gradual.
[edit] Post Suharto

In late 2005 Indonesia faced a 'mini-crisis' due to international oil prices rises and imports. The currency reached Rp 12,000/USD1 before stabilizing. The government was forced to cut its massive fuel subsidies, which were planned to cost $14 billion for 2005, in October.[14] This led to a more than doubling in the price of consumer fuels, resulting in double-digit inflation. The situation had stabilized, but the economy continued to struggle with inflation at 17% in 2005.

For 2006, Indonesia's economic outlook was more positive. Economic growth accelerated to 5.1% in 2004 and reached 5.6% in 2005. Real per capita income has reached fiscal year 1996/1997 levels. Growth was driven primarily by domestic consumption, which accounts for roughly three-fourths of Indonesia's gross domestic product. The Jakarta Stock Exchange was the best performing market in Asia in 2004 up by 42%. Problems that continue to put a drag on growth include low foreign investment levels, bureaucratic red tape, and very widespread corruption which causes 51.43 trillion Rupiah or 5.6573 billion US Dollar or approximately 1.4% of GDP to be lost on a yearly basis.[15] However, there is very strong optimism with the conclusion of peaceful elections during the year 2004 and the election of the reformist president Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono.

The unemployment rate in February 2007 was 9.75%.[16] Despite a slowing global economy, Indonesia’s economic growth accelerated to a ten-year high of 6.3 percent in 2007. This growth rate was sufficient to reduce poverty from 17.8 to 16.6 percent based on the Government’s poverty line and reversed the recent trend towards jobless growth, with unemployment falling to 8.46 percent in February 2008.[17][18] Unlike many of its more export-dependent neighbors, it has managed to skirt the recession, helped by strong domestic demand (which makes up about two-thirds of the economy) and a government fiscal stimulus package of about 1.4 percent of GDP, announced earlier this year. After India and China, Indonesia is currently the third fastest growing economy in the Group of Twenty (G20) industrialized and developing economies. The $512 billion economy expanded 4.4 percent in the first quarter from a year earlier and last month, the IMF revised its 2009 forecast for the country to 3-4 percent from 2.5 percent. Indonesia enjoyed stronger fundamentals with the authorities implemented wide-ranging economic and financial reforms, including a rapid reduction in public and external debt, strengthening of corporate and banking sector balance sheets and reducing bank vulnerabilities through higher capitalization and better supervision.[19]

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 10 Jan 2011 12:41

Arjun wrote:Happy to debate this further with you...Let me know a suitable thread.

Response to you and Arjunm here..

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 8#p1008488

arjunm · Post by **arjunm** » 10 Jan 2011 14:05

somnath wrote:
Arjun wrote:Happy to debate this further with you...Let me know a suitable thread.
Response to you and Arjunm here..

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 8#p1008488

Please check the list of the manufactured goods that Malaysia offers as a highly Industrialised nation, so to speak-

http://www.malaysiaexports.com/contents ... oducts.htm

Abrasives Acids Air Regulator
Adhesives & Sealant Acrylic products Air Cylinders
Aerosol Products Activated Carbon Air Dryers
Asbestos Activated Charcoal Air Filters
Association Alarms Products Air Pollution Control
Assembly Lines Attache Cases Air Compressors & Systems
Asphalt & Bitumen Animal Feed Air Conditioners & Equipment
Automotive Parts & Accessories Aluminum Products Agricultural, Aquaculture products
Audio Products Parts Aquarium Products Agricultural Machinery

It's not much just follow fout alpahbates
Please follow up to Kitchen Sink for K

I will give the details later.

Raghavendra · Post by **Raghavendra** » 10 Jan 2011 17:39

Man sentenced to 14 years jail for raising terror fund
http://www.thestatesman.net/index.php?o ... 8&catid=35

Raghavendra · Post by **Raghavendra** » 10 Jan 2011 17:45

'Congress deiberately linking RSS to terror'
http://www.zeenews.com/news679596.html

He said: "They are losing the vote bank. During election, their faces are unraveled in front of people. Now they are scared, so they defame us. So, they introduced a new word called Hindu terrorism (militancy)."

Elections are coming, digvijay and congress will start shouting louder

Simultaneous polls in 5 states, UT
http://www.thestatesman.net/index.php?o ... 7&catid=35

Assembly polls in the four states of West Bengal, Assam, Tamil Nadu, Kerala and the Union Territory of Puducherry, will be held together and the results would be declared on a single day, the chief election commissioner Mr SY Quraishi said today.

“We will hold elections in the five states together in bunches and the results would be declared on the same day after the polls are over in all these places. This is to ensure that the outcome of the poll in one state does not influence the other,” Mr Quraishi told journalists on the sidelines of the “2nd Regional Consultation for Electoral Reforms” held at the West Bengal National University of Juridical Sciences (NUJS) today.

rkirankr · Post by **rkirankr** » 10 Jan 2011 17:48

^^ However the thing to note is BJP has no big stakes or has never won any of these states and probably not strong there. So why all these thing about saffron terror. I believe it is not limited or related to these elections, there is a larger sinister agenda

archan · Post by **archan** » 10 Jan 2011 18:28

arjunm, learn from somnath and develop some thread discipline please. Take that discussion to an appropriate thread. Thanks.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 10 Jan 2011 20:24

Thank you MMS, very grateful to know that you have a eye out for your Pakistani friends, at Havana, at Sharm El Sheik and now at home

Aseemanand's confession: Pak seeks update on Samjhauta bombing probe
http://www.rediff.com/news/report/pak-s ... 110110.htm

arjunm · Post by **arjunm** » 10 Jan 2011 23:45

archan wrote:arjunm, learn from somnath and develop some thread discipline please. Take that discussion to an appropriate thread. Thanks.

No desire to continue this discussion any further when the primal talking point subverted with other sub-texts ultimately reach to a futile waste.

Thanks-

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 11 Jan 2011 06:50

It is both strategically unwise, as well as common sensically naive to simply be in denial about the presence of hindu extremists who ould have (or would have) committed terror crimes...After, what is so "surprising" about a few people from the mobs that perpetrated Babri, Gujarat, Delhi-1984 et al to pick up a bomb rather than a pickaxe?

The majesty of the Indian state, and India's "image" does not get sullied because a few loonies went around creating mayhem..It gets sullied really badly when the cases are not investigated fairly and prosecuted competently..Because if they are not, then we start getting the image of a state whose organs cannot be trusted to behave impartially (like one state that we are so familiar with!)...

Specifically vis a vis Samjhauta, in case the perpetrators of the carnage are hindus, a successful prosecution will send out a strong message that reiforces India's "image" as a nation where the rule of law is supreme, and put further pressure (not that its any longer meaningful, but from a signalling perspective to the world) on Pak to prosecute its own..

The worst service that politicians have done to India's case in internal security have been partisan pre-judging of every event and partisan, "imputive" bashing of the investigation..Digvijay Singh's inanities on Batla House, Antuley's nonsense on Karkare, BJP's inanities on Sadhvi Pragya, Kanchi Shankaracharya, Hemant Karkare - all of them fall within the same bracket when it comes to lessening the case.

At another level, our investigative processes need massive overhaul...the sort of propaganda points generated by muslim boys picked up, beaten up and then having to be released because of lack of any evidence, and then the crime linked back to a bunch of hindu lunatics - its way beyond any number of speeches made by Masood Azhar...To that extent, setting up of the NIA is a step in the right direction - reforming the local police forces will be an effort that will probably outlast all our collective lifetimes...As Pratap Bhanu Mehta put it in his article (linked below), to be in denial is the worst serviec that anyon can do on the issue...

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/india ... l/735946/0