Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2010

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symontk
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by symontk »

menon - I see what you mean, but my personal view on the issue, cruel as it may seem, is that there have to be a few more such assassinations in Pakistan. I really don't care. You see - when my people go out in India they have to be aware of the level of security alert in the town so they know which places are likely to be relatively safe on certain days. Encouraging and provoking a high profile assassination in Pakistan would be fair game as far as I am concerned. The main problem is powerlessness to do that.
There is always a Shikandi option for those in pakistan who wants to take revenge on their rivals. They can let out a hit team and blame the killings on Islamism, given that even the lawyers are on the side of islamists its easy to get bail and continue.

This is the problem now faced by high and mighty in Pakistan. any crime will be tested against islamic standards which makes these killings a bit easy than earlier

If it has resources on ground, even US would be tempted to do this
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by SSridhar »

Pakistan Group Fights Hate Mongering - Anita Joshua in The Hindu
Excerpts
In a bid to take on the “religious” right wing emboldened by the assassination of Punjab Governor Salman Taseer and the lionisation of his assassin, Citizens For Democracy (CFD) on Saturday demanded legal action against those indulging in hate mongering.

. . . the CFD said there was no proof of blasphemy against the slain Governor. {This is a clincher of the state of Islamism in Pakistan. The CFD is not questioning the Blasphemy Law itself or the 'Death Only' interpretation of the Law. These people are fearful of saying anything like that. They are only saying that Taseer did not blaspheme.}

The CFD has also called for legal action against a Peshawar-based cleric who has offered reward money to anyone who kills Aasia Bibi if her death sentence is not confirmed by the High Court. Similar legal action has also been called for against Khatm-e-Naboohat for distributing threatening pamphlets against Pakistan People's Party-legislator Sherry Rehman who has tabled a Private Member's Bill in the National Assembly to amend the blasphemy laws.

The CFD is an umbrella group of political parties, trade unions and NGOs that was formed less than a month ago to campaign against the misuse/abuse of the blasphemy laws and of religion in politics.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by A_Gupta »

vijayk wrote:Did not even know what Asia Bibi did till now ..
He denounced the treatment of Asia Bibi, a Christian mother of five. She had argued with Muslim women who refused to drink water she had carried because she was impure and therefore the drink she carried was contaminated. They told the local cleric she had taken Muhammad's name in vain.
Repeating verbatim what the alleged blasphemer said is also blasphemy. Therefore the charges can never be very specific.

One magazine said that in the ensuing argument after the Muslim women refused to drink water from Asia Bibi is that Asia Bibi told them that Jesus is alive and Muhammad is dead. But there is no way of knowing for sure that that is what she said.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by rohitvats »

ramana wrote:I was reading Tariq Fatahc' Chasing Mirage and a description came up. Recall I refer to the TSPA as Kabila guards. Well he has a better word. Jangawee: soldier or devil on horse.

When I gave my presentation for IRF on "Understanding Pakistan" the last slide had that kind of image of an Afghan at Cuddalore!

So from now on TSPA is a group of jangawees guarding the Kabila!
ramana, I think the word is Janjaweed - which is a loose term of armed men on horses. It originates from Sudan and you can read about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janjaweed
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by menon s »

Next On the Firing Line in The TSP.
1. Nadeem F Paracha
2. Pervez Hoodbouy
3. Sherry Rehman.
4. Ayesha Siddiqa.

As it happened in Cambodia and in Bangladesh, the opinion makers are killed first.
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.as ... 2011_pg3_2
Last edited by SSridhar on 09 Jan 2011 11:27, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Fixed URL. See post below.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by saip »

menon s sab:

Please, when you post daily crimes links, replace the backward slashes with forward slashes thus:

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.as ... 2011_pg3_2
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by SSridhar »

He Died With His Boots - Anees Jillani
Now, Anees Jillani is a well known lawyer from Pakistan and what he says below reveals the state of the Pakistani society. Not that we are taken by surprise by this revelation for we know all this, but it confirms.
There is hardly an anchorperson bold enough to outrightly defend what Salmaan stood for and the politicians are a foregone conclusion anyway. . . .The worst part is that the lower class folks I came across on Tuesday unanimously supported his death, ranging from the cooks to the chowkidars. They all said that he stood for blasphemy and deserved to die. The military has the might but it also has its limitations as such extremists are present in its midst as well . . . what we saw the evening he died was television channels, including the Pakistan TV, giving the religious personalities lot of time to justify the killing . . . the Urdu press is overwhelmingly sensational and gives front page coverage to the religious extremists with banner headlines.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by AnimeshP »

Some nuggets ..

Delusions of grandeur
“What plans did he have for the industrial development of the country? Did he hope to enlist technical or financial assistance from America?” she asked Jinnah.

“`America needs Pakistan more than Pakistan needs America,` was Jinnah`s reply. `Pakistan is the pivot of the world, as we are placed` … `the frontier on which the future position of the world revolves.` … `Russia,` confided Mr Jinnah, `is not so very far away.`”
“In the weeks to come,” Bourke-White wrote, “I was to hear the Quaid-i-Azam`s thesis echoed by government officials throughout Pakistan. `Surely America will build our army,` they would say to me. `Surely America will give us loans to keep Russia from walking in.` But when I asked whether there were any signs of Russian infiltration, they would reply almost sadly, as though sorry not to be able to make more of the argument. `No, Russia has shown no signs of being interested in Pakistan.`”

“This hope of tapping the US treasury was voiced so persistently that one wondered whether the purpose was to bolster the world against Bolshevism or to bolster Pakistan`s own uncertain position as a new political entity. Actually, I think, it was more nearly related to the even more significant bankruptcy of ideas in the new Muslim state — a nation drawing its spurious warmth from the embers of an antique religious fanaticism, fanned into a new blaze.”
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by Raja Ram »

CRamS wrote:
Raja Ram wrote: Slowly, the ruling party is sliding into even labelling nationalism as non-secular. This is appeasement gone beyond reason. It must be stopped.
Boss great points, but that preaching to the choir here on BR, but on the bolded part, can you tell us how? MMS & Co are on a roll, nothing, not Mumbai, not the 2G scanda, not commonwealth fiascao etc that shows their incompetence seems to upset the Indian public. So how do we stop him from going ahead with his TSP bhaichara?
CRamS
The way I see it is that the Indian public is upset. Not the talking shop media and paper outlets that are in the payroll of the elite in business and politics. That is why these outlets do not talk about it.

The Indian public and that includes the muslims of India, have given their verdict in an emphatic way in Bihar and in Gujarat recently. There seems to be a growing sense of realism and a desire to bring in some accountability. It is another matter that the Indian electorate does not have a great array of choices. It has to choose from amongst the mediocre, a best amongst the mediocre alternatives.

But Pakistan is not an electoral issue, and it seems that cross border terror like the attack ion Mumbai still does not warrant any national discussion as an electoral issue. That is the reason that INC is getting away with trying to please the USG on Pakistan and relegating our national interests and concerns.

First there should be sense of awareness of the futility of trying to mend relations with this artificial entity. It means the myths have to be exposed.

What can one do? is the question you have asked. I can do something about it and I am doing so. We have started a small group here in Chennai and have been organizing small meetings where we brief the professional, students, gen y and women about some of these issues. We point them out to resources like BR forums so that they can begin their self discovery. We also provide presentations and other materials to share with their families. The idea is to build a network of people who will inform others by word of mouth and social media.

If we are able to build a base of people who are willing to make it an issue and demand actions on Pakistan, and if this becomes a rallying point for political parties to take positions and seek votes, we can stop the perpetuation of these myths. At the least, we can at least mount an open challenge to these mythical assertions of "A stable and prosperous Pakistan is in the interest of India's Growth and prosperity" and "We need to talk to Pakistan no matter what, there is no other alternative."

We speak at small schools, family and community gatherings, temples, colleges, diverse fora including consultative ones and foras of political parties. We speak in English and Tamil for better reach.

In the last 4 months, I have been speaking every week end on one topic of national security or other. That is what I can do as an effort to stop it. Believe me, there are enough people with nationalistic sentiments who are willing to take the message, even in small regional parties and in the INC too.

One must understand the limitations too. National Security issues will not be "the" electoral issue in India, unless there is an existential threat so overt, like in 1962. But what we see is that this evokes a more broad based positive response across the various segments and unifies more people. It takes a lot of effort. You have to move people from being "apathetic and indifferent" to being "aware and concerned" and then to being "activist for nationalistic thought". We are attempting to bring in the rigor of marketing to the process. Let us see how these experiments work out.

Sorry for the OT post gentle readers, I just thought I was obliged to answer the question "How can it be stopped?" Oh yes! please wish us well in this endeavour!

Admins may choose to delete this if the above is inappropriate for this thread.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by SSridhar »

Fatwa issued for Sherry Rehman's Death
Daily Times has learnt that the imam of Sultan Masjid has issued a fatwa and another has been published in a pamphlet and distributed by the Tanzeem-e-Islami (TI).

When contacted, Sultan Masjid Imam Munir Ahmed Shakir denied issuing fatwa against Sherry.

He said he has been performing duties in the mosque since its establishment. It was being run under the supervision of Saudi military attaché and Defence Minister Sultan bin Abdul Aziz. :shock:
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by shiv »

SSridhar wrote:He Died With His Boots - Anees Jillani
the lower class folks I came across on Tuesday unanimously supported his death, ranging from the cooks to the chowkidars. They all said that he stood for blasphemy and deserved to die.


Aha. Egalitarian Islam. Egalitarian Pakistan. "lower class". What the fug is that? Let's face it. I have people who work at home (a maid and a gardener among others). But I can hardly describe them as "lower class". I can safely say that the belong to a lower socio-economic stratum and their education level is less than mine. But lower class? They are employees, working, providing a service for a living and I am their sole or part-time employer. Not "lower class" people.

This too is the hall mark of Pakistani RAPE
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by arun »

The beardless “Taliban Goebbels” Imran Khan writing in the Guardian’s “Comment Is Free” column.

Naturally none of the responsibility for the mess that is the Islamic Republic of Pakistan can be laid at the Islamic Republic’s doorstep:

Pakistan will implode if the US does not leave Afghanistan
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by abhishek_sharma »

Taseer should have been more balanced, careful: Sharif

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/Tasee ... rif/735181
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by abhishek_sharma »

India, Pakistan foreign secretaries may meet in February

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 246305.cms
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by abhishek_sharma »

MEA drags feet

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/askin ... d/735239/0

Asaduddin Owaisi, the MIM MP from Hyderabad, was invited by the Pugwash Foundation for a peace conference in Islamabad. The necessary clearance from the Ministry of External Affairs came through at the eleventh hour and that too grudgingly. The MEA in its letter advised against his attending the meet as it feared many contentious issues could crop up causing controversies. Surely it is in the MEA’s interest to encourage an independent Muslim MP from India helping in the peace process and putting across the Indian case?
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by SSridhar »

Mullah Diesel strongly supports Blasphemy Law and warns Govt
Fazal termed government’s action against religious institutions and Madaris, allegedly linked to the assassination of Salman Taseer, as ‘bad intentions’ and ‘nefarious designs’.

This he said to a press conference here at a hotel after attending a meeting of the leaders of religious parties on Tahaffuz-e-Namoos-e-Risaalat organized by JUI-F.

Meeting was also attended by JI chief Syed Munawwar Hassan, Sahabzada Abul Khair Zubairi, Maulana Hafeez Jalandhari and others.

Later, talking to media, Maulana Fazal expressed his intolerance over actions being taken by government against religious institutions and Madaris in connection with assassination of Salman Taseer, warning the latter against strong reaction from people.

Citing the recent incidents of violence in Karachi, he linked the incidents with a conspiracy being hatched to discourage people who aim to take out rallies and hold conferences on Tahaffuz-e-Namoos-e-Risaalat.

“A private bill tabled in National Assembly seeking amendment in Blasphemy Law should immediately be withdrawn,” he demanded, urging president Asif Ali Zardari to dissolve committee which had been formed earlier to deliberate on the procedure of sentence in accordance with Blasphemy Law.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by Raghavendra »

Pakistan's titanic? http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/home ... 244598.cms


Pak's liberal dream is dying on its feet http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/home ... 245423.cms



Zia and the jihadi nexus
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/home ... 244560.cms
After 1971, Pakistan lost the will for another conventional war against India, but it did not lose the will for Kashmir. In a sense it could not, because to accept Kashmir as part of India was to deny the rationale for the creation of Pakistan.

General Zia changed the dynamics of the Kashmir confrontation when he outsourced the jihad to Jamaat-e-Islami and similar ideologically motivated groups. It was not merely a shift from quasi-state actors to non-state actors, it also introduced a new element in the struggle, for the purpose was no longer limited to 'liberation' of Kashmir from 'Hindu India' but included the conversion of Kashmir into 'Islamic space'. Jamaat, and Jamaat-influenced, fighters wanted a Kashmir cleansed of Hindu 'perfidy' and presence. In 1992, they were instrumental in driving Kashmiri Hindus out of the Valley.

In Indian Kashmir, the Jamaat was set up by Said ud Tarabali, the first amir, Qari Saifuddin and Ghulam Ahmad Ahrar. The Jamaat chief in PoK, Maulana Abdul Bari, met Zia in early 1980. 'According to Bari,' writes Arif Jamal, 'the general stated his intentions plainly: he had decided to contribute to the American-sponsored war in Afghanistan in order to prepare the ground for a larger conflict in Kashmir, and he wanted to involve the Jamaat-e-Islami of Azad Jammu and Kashmir. To the general, the war in Afghanistan would be a smokescreen behind which Pakistan could carefully prepare a more significant battle in Kashmir. The general said he had carefully calculated his support for the American operation, predicting that the Americans would be distracted by the fighting in Afghanistan and, as a result, turn a blind eye to Pakistani moves in the region.' Bari claims he was sceptical. But Zia was persuasive: how could Americans, he pointed out, stop 'us from waging jihad in Kashmir when they themselves are waging jihad in Afghanistan?'

Bari spoke to his counterpart, Maulana Saidudin Taribali, in secret, in a village called Ajis. His message was uncomplicated: the Pakistani army would not start a war to liberate Kashmir, but ISI would pay the bills for an armed uprising.

In September 1982, Jamaat leaders from Indian Kashmir were taken for a secret visit to Pakistan via Saudi Arabia, which was their official destination. It took a personal conversation in 1983 between Zia and Maulana Saidudin to convince the latter. When the first group of Jamaat volunteers crossed the Ceasefire Line to get 'military training', the maulana's son was among them. Jamal reports that Kashmiri 'boys' were trained at the Khalid bin Walid, Al Farooq and Abu Jindal camps (in 1998, Osama bin Laden held a press conference at Abu Jindal). A nexus was established, which has survived dramatic shifts in the political mood of Kabul, Islamabad, Delhi and Srinagar.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by Gerard »

From terrorists to sexual predators: Who'd be a British Pakistani man right now?
'Terrorist' and 'sexual predator' are not mutually exclusive. Pakistanis can walk and chew gum at the same time.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by shravan »

Thousands rally over blasphemy law in Pakistan
More than 40,000 people rallied in Pakistan's southern city of Karachi on Sunday, police said, against the controversial reform of a blasphemy law that was behind the killing of a senior politician.

"Mumtaz Qadri is not a murderer, he is a hero," said one banner in the national Urdu language in support of the man who carried out Pakistan's most high-profile political killing in three years.

"We salute the courage of Qadri," said another.

Rally leader Qari Ahsaan, from the banned Islamist group Jamaat ud Dawa, addressed the crowd from a stage.

"We can't compromise on the blasphemy law. It's a divine law and nobody can change it," Ahsaan told the masses.

"Our belief in the sanctity of our prophet is firm and uncompromising and we cannot tolerate anyone who blasphemes. Whoever blasphemes will face the same fate as Salman Taseer," 40-year-old labourer Abdul Rehman told AFP at the rally.

..
Rehman spoke to AFP from her heavily-guarded home in Karachi on Sunday and said she would not be cowed by the protest.

"They can't silence me... it's not any extreme position like a repeal bill, it's very rational. They can't decide what we think or speak, these are man-made laws," said Sherry Rehman.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubmnvLwaQ74
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by anupmisra »

shiv wrote:Aha. Egalitarian Islam. Egalitarian Pakistan. "lower class". ...This too is the hall mark of Pakistani RAPE
When one reads this article, it almost seems that the author wanted to use the term "lower caste" but refrained from it. Why? Because that's not what "egalitarian islam is all about". Hence, the next level of (ugh!!) choice: "lower class". Its all relative and serves a purpose. Remember, in pa'astan, everyone is someone else's lower class.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by Cosmo_R »

Apologies if posted earlier. Photos of the Taseers and assorted rapettes at play:

http://connect.in.com/salman-taseer-dau ... 17755.html
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by anupmisra »

A Paki Assassin’s Long Reach
A NYT article by David Sanger who played a central role in the first stories that uncovered the nuclear proliferation ring run by Abdul Qadeer Khan, the Pakistani metallurgist who helped sell technology to Iran, North Korea and Libya. That investigation became the core of "Nuclear Jihad: Can Terrorists Get the Bomb? which won the Columbia/DuPont Award in 2007.
“Everything about what’s happened in the past few days is a reminder of how we’re still losing ground in Pakistan,” said one administration official who deals with the country often, but would not speak on the record because public criticism of Pakistan’s two governments — its weak civilian leadership and its always-dominant military — is avoided at all cost. “It’s trouble on many different levels.”
the assassination left little doubt that a civil war is underway in Pakistan
“What was once a problem confined to the borderlands is now an infection inside the entire body-politic of Pakistan,” Bruce Riedel, who ran President Obama’s first review of Pakistan and Afghanistan policy in early 2009, said after the assassination. “It is another reminder that Pakistan has had an Islamic jihadist dictator before, and he can be re-incarnated.”
It is the question of what this killing may indicate about the security of Pakistan’s nuclear weapons, whose number and location are among the country’s greatest secrets.
By all accounts, Mr. Taseer was shot, at a public market, more than twenty times — and none of the other guards in the area shot at his alleged 26-year-old attacker, Malik Mumtaz Qadri, a member of an elite police force.
No one is saying how Mr. Qadri, who smiled at the cheers he received from exultant supporters, got through the vetting process. But one American official said, “it’s one more reason to give pause” when thinking about what could happen if a like-minded guard or scientist decided to make his point by seizing nuclear materials.
They explained, again, that anyone who gets inside the high walls of the country’s nuclear facilities first has to pass a “personal reliability program” :rotfl: run by the Strategic Plans Division, which is in charge of nuclear security. The program is designed to screen out Taliban sympathizers, religious extremists and Al Qaeda spies.
Time for Mr. Sanger to write the next edition to his earlier award winning article "Nuclear Jihad: Now that the Terrorists have the Bomb..what next?".
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by Brad Goodman »

A lament for Pakistan by Meghnad Desai
Seventy years on, it is in Lahore that the idea of Pakistan is in danger of being destroyed. The assassination of Salman Taseer is a warning call to all of us. Indians need not rejoice over the crisis in Pakistan. We have as much stake in preventing the collapse of a modern liberal democratic Pakistan, as its own citizens have. Despite our anger over 26/11 and other terrorist outrages, Pakistan’s survival as a non-Islamist state is very much in India’s interest. :eek:

This is why we need to understand why Pakistan is in the state of flux it is today. As always, the roots of the tragedy go far back into history. Ignore the Congress’s version of the Partition story. Pakistan was not proposed as a religious state. Jinnah did not trust the Congress to be able to resist the pressures of the Hindu majority against the rights of the Muslim minority. He asked for a sub-federation within post-British India. What he ended up with was a ‘moth-eaten’ Pakistan.
Any history buffs to refute or back this claim ?
The problem with Pakistan has been that it has never been secure about its identity as a nation. It is one thing to have a sub-federation to guarantee minority rights in a large federation, but what is then the basis of the nation where the erstwhile minority is now the majority? What was it which united the two halves of Pakistan across two thousand miles of Indian territory? Urdu was imposed as a national language which led eventually to the secession of East Pakistan. Left with the single territory, the idea of Pakistan was still ill-defined. The very word ‘mohajir’ shows that locals don’t consider Muslim refugees from India as Pakistanis. How then could Pakistan be defined?
Man if this article is taken seriously by Dept of State then god bless us.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by RamaY »

Vivek K wrote:I thought that the point was about facts!!
Yes! That is why the credit for creation of BD goes to IG and Nuke test to ABV.

One can give credit of nuke tests to PVNR or RG or IG but it just shows their curtesy.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by A_Gupta »

shiv wrote: Aha. Egalitarian Islam. Egalitarian Pakistan. "lower class". What the fug is that? Let's face it. I have people who work at home (a maid and a gardener among others). But I can hardly describe them as "lower class". I can safely say that the belong to a lower socio-economic stratum and their education level is less than mine. But lower class? They are employees, working, providing a service for a living and I am their sole or part-time employer. Not "lower class" people.

This too is the hall mark of Pakistani RAPE
And in some cases I know in India (Kerala), their children are going to college. One is learning molecular biology. We can expect the next generation to be - minus our accumulated advantage - to be on the same socio-economic stratum. Just how wonderful is that!
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by RamaY »

Hari Seldon wrote:Could raa kindly 'leak' its video showing zardari dissing the mullahs and the blashphemy law in what he thought was a private candid chat only.....LOL

Along with mushy's anti-blasphemy law comments. No wonder AoA onlee. Justice done fast for these terrorist b*****s in Pakistan than in Liberal-congressi india.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by arun »

Editorial in the UK’s Guardian:

Pakistan: The moral collapse of a nation

.............. URL Corrected
Last edited by arun on 09 Jan 2011 21:14, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by Raghavendra »

^ Sorry - we haven't been able to serve the page you asked for

birather link please or wajibul qatal on your post
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by A_Gupta »

Brad Goodman wrote:
...This is why we need to understand why Pakistan is in the state of flux it is today. As always, the roots of the tragedy go far back into history. Ignore the Congress’s version of the Partition story. Pakistan was not proposed as a religious state. Jinnah did not trust the Congress to be able to resist the pressures of the Hindu majority against the rights of the Muslim minority. He asked for a sub-federation within post-British India. What he ended up with was a ‘moth-eaten’ Pakistan.
Any history buffs to refute or back this claim ?
The easiest refutation is to examine Jinnah's (private) interview with the Cabinet Mission Plan members. They explicitly offered him a choice - a sub-federation within a united India, or a moth-eaten Pakistan. Jinnah chose the moth-eaten Pakistan.
April 16, 1946 – Cabinet Delegation and Jinnah
The Transfer of Power 1942-47, Volume VII, #116
Record of Interview between Cabinet Delegation and Mr Jinnah
....

Mr. Jinnah asked how Pakistan came in under the proposed all-India Union.

The Secretary of State said that briefly there were two propositions – a small Pakistan with sovereign rights and a treaty relation, and a larger Pakistan including broadly the present Provinces except Assam and subject perhaps to some frontier adjustment. The latter would come together with Hindustan on terms of equality within an all-India Union for the essential purposes of defence and foreign affairs. Sir S. Cripps said that under the second alternative two Federations would be created linked by a Union Centre. The {princely}States would come in either at the Union or the Federation level and there would be equal representation of Hindustan and Pakistan at the Union level. The communal balance would be retained at the Centre by some means even if the States came in there.

Mr Jinnah asked how the Union Executive would be formed.

Sir S. Cripps said that the Federations would choose the members of the Union Executive.

Mr Jinnah asked how, if there were equal representation, decisions were to be reached and Sir S. Cripps said that there would be no Union Parliament. The responsibility would go back to the two Federations if agreement could not be reached and differences could only be decided by inter-Governmental agreement.

Mr Jinnah expressed doubts as to whether this arrangement would work in practice. Matters would have to be decided everyday in regard to defence. From what had been said he had not been able to get anything which would enable him to say that the Union idea was worth considering.

The Secretary of State emphasised that the essence of the Union scheme was the equality of the two component parts which made it entirely different from a Centre in which the Hindus had a majority.

In so far as the Muslim League’s claim as to the territory of Pakistan would be conceded the Muslims would have control by majority of large areas in all except the essential Union subjects and there they would meet the Hindus on a level where it was the States which counted and not the number of individuals in them.

Of course, the Secretary of State did not know whether the Congress would agree to this principle of equality but it was the essence of the proposal.

Mr Jinnah said that no amount of equality provided on paper was going to work. Equality could not exist between the majority and a minority within the same governmental system. Would there, for example, be equality of each community in the Service? A Treaty of mutual defence between two separate States was quite different. It operated in certain contingencies such as external attack, but at other times and in other matters the States were separate.

He did not think that the domination of the Muslims by the Hindus could be prevented in any scheme in which they were kept together. It is only when the Muslims are the majority in Pakistan and the Hindus in Hindustan that you have sufficient united force running through the State from the top to bottom to provide a “steel frame” which can hold it together.

The Secretary of State said that Mr Jinnah seemed to be turning to the other alternative and asked Mr Jinnah’s views on that. Mr Jinnah said that once the principle of Pakistan was conceded the question of the territory of Pakistan could be discussed. His claim was for the six provinces but he was willing to discuss the area. The first question was whether the principle was accepted……..

…..The Secretary of State said that if Mr Jinnah got his two steel frames set up by agreement he could see the force of the case he put forward. If, however, Mr Jinnah did obtain otherwise than by agreement more than the Muslim-majority districts he would find himself in a very vulnerable situation subsequently…..{and he was unlikely to get that agreement.}

….The Secretary of State said that the Delegation was not asking Mr Jinnah to commit himself to anything but merely to say whether he would prefer the matter to be considered on the basis of sovereignty and the small area or a Union and a larger area.

Mr Jinnah said that as far as the Union was concerned he could not accept the principle.
On the other hand he claimed the six Provinces and if Congress considered that that was too much they should say what they considered he ought to have.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by A_Gupta »

^^^^
Pakistan: Moral Collapse of a Nation
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... n-pakistan
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by krisna »

anupmisra wrote:A Paki Assassin’s Long Reach
A NYT article by David Sanger who played a central role in the first stories that uncovered the nuclear proliferation ring run by Abdul Qadeer Khan, the Pakistani metallurgist who helped sell technology to Iran, North Korea and Libya. That investigation became the core of "Nuclear Jihad: Can Terrorists Get the Bomb? which won the Columbia/DuPont Award in 2007.
<snip>
.
some quotes from the above article-
what the uncle thinks
Three levels, at least, and at each a threat to assumptions that underlie the Obama administration’s strategy. One is that Pakistan is moving toward the West, even if sporadically(yeah towards araps :lol: ). Another is that the United States can gradually deal more with Pakistan’s elected government, and less with its military(WTF, are they really serious :shock: ). The third, and most critical, is that Pakistan’s expanding nuclear arsenal is truly safe from betrayal by insiders. :roll:
On the first level, the assassination left little doubt that a civil war is underway in Pakistan, one not confined to the border regions where the Taliban and Al Qaeda operate.


Regarding the nooclear bums--
But they do in private, as the WikiLeaks cables that emerged from the American embassy in Pakistan made clear. “Our major concern,” Anne W. Patterson, then the American ambassador, wrote to Washington on Feb. 4, 2009, “is not having an Islamic militant steal an entire weapon but rather the chance someone working in GOP [Government of Pakistan] facilities could gradually smuggle enough material out to eventually make a weapon.”
And it’s worth remembering that on their list of potential threats to their nuclear assets, the United States is No. 1, and terrorists and religious fundamentalists are further down the line.”
Despite the history of TSP, uncle is making all the above assumptions which is contrary to what is happening periodically. Are they nuts or what. likely shows there desperation that they cannot do much in TSP other than giving jaziya.

Now with the groper govt not practising austere measures, defence expenditure increasing, floods of last year, internally displaced people with worsening socio economic indices- further recipe for increasing importance of religion and fundos increasing hold on aam paki.
definitely centripetal forces gathering strength. Among the 3 "A" s only the fundos are gaining, attracting moths to fire.
BTW what is the critical mass for implosion. Any takers?? :twisted: :evil:
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by Gerard »

The wisdom of the scorpion and the frog is lost on so many.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by krisna »

A critical mass
Pakistan The murder of a leading liberal politician highlights strains on an elite whose ability to resist the influence of militant Islamism is increasingly in question, write Amy Kazmin and Farhan Bokhari
Islamabad’s Kohsar market is an enclave of affluence amid poverty and conservatism, where wealthy Pakistanis and expatriates buy imported food, browse the shelves at the London Book Company, and idle at cafés such as Mocha and Table Talk.
The easygoing western-style ambience was shattered on Tuesday by the assassination of Salman Taseer, which laid bare the tenuous hold of Pakistan’s elite, typified by Kohsar’s patrons, over the restive country.
The liberal elite has been further shocked by the outpouring of support for the killing of Taseer,
Despite the creeping influence of radicalism, Pakistani elites have tended to see extremists as fringe elements in an essentially tolerant society.
RAPEs losing touch with the pulse of aam paki.RAPEs are becoming bious, but IOW the aam paki has become more bious and more vociferous than the RAPEs.
Many fear Pakistan, a crucial ally in the US-led struggle against Islamist extremism, has crossed a tipping point, whereby liberal voices will be silenced, while Islamists – determined to implement sharia at home, and export jihadi struggle abroad – increasingly chart the country’s future.
Taseer himself – in an interview with the Financial Times shortly before his death – derided the Pakistani Taliban insurgents who last year came close to overrunning the strategically important Swat Valley as “brainwashed, illiterate tribes”, foreign criminals, and bandits with no links to Islam.
If these mullahs are so popular, why have we never seen them sweep to power in elections?” he asked. “The reality is Pakistan is neither Iran nor Afghanistan. Pakistan is a state which has problems but it is nowhere near becoming a radical state. Our youth are radicalised not because of ideology but because there are no opportunities. You give jobs to the young people and you begin to overcome the nuisance of the mullahs”.
He is a fundo pulling wool over non pakis.mullahs dont stand in elections, their chelas stand and win. everyone is a fundo, they are already in the govt and all important positions. Only the extent of fundosness varies.It is all a pretense that radicals are not in govt. How can blasphemy laws be passed without fundos, minorities harassed,converted or exterminated......many more
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by Gerard »

Perhaps more than at any time since Pakistan reluctantly signed up to take on the Taliban and Al Qaeda, the battle is joined between those Pakistanis who believe their nation should be essentially a secular Islamic state, and religious extremists with visions of taking over the country.
What, pray tell, is a secular Islamic state?
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by Cosmo_R »

@Brad Goodman ^^^

What Jinnah wanted was a moth-eaten India (you can see it on the old Al-Muhajiroun maps and Rehmat Ali's 'Dinia') where he could play kingmaker. The 'sub-federation' was a ploy to do that. He overshot and wound up with a moth-eaten Pakistan.

The whole game was to divide the Hindu majority into castes, Dalits and commies and then team up with Muslim voters to gain/preserve a parliamentary majority. It worked for the longest time. Unfortunately for the INC, these vote groups became powers in their own right (Mayawati, the Commies et al) and did not need the INC umbrella so they've become increasingly reliant on the Muslim vote bank and the non-commie left of centers. It's not a slip of the tongue for RG or Diggy to see a Hindutva conspiracy in everything.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by krisna »

Watershed Year for Pakistan
Pakistan should be expected to enter a watershed period of transformation in 2011, with this dynamic having significant ramifications for the coalition’s conflict against the Taliban, as well as for the strategic balance between the People’s Republic of China (PRC) and India. In essence, Pakistan will be dominated by its geopolitical essence: as the key bridge between the Indian Ocean, Central Asia and the PRC.
this was before the assasination of pakjabi governor.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by Singha »

er um sherbano taseer the daughter is a newsweek reporter. late guv was likely on the US payroll in some way too...
op ed by her in NYT no less - http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/09/opini ... er.html?hp
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by svinayak »

krisna wrote: Pakistan should be expected to enter a watershed period of transformation in 2011, with this dynamic having significant ramifications for the coalition’s conflict against the Taliban, as well as for the strategic balance between the People’s Republic of China (PRC) and India. In essence, Pakistan will be dominated by its geopolitical essence: as the key bridge between the Indian Ocean, Central Asia and the PRC.

This geo graphy will be a quagmire for the major powers draining billions of dollars for the next 50 years from their war chest.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by Brad Goodman »

another BS this time from Indian Express by Ruchika Talwar who makes these retards scribes and how can people read this nonsense

Jinnah's Pakistan: Ahead of time
Jinnah, who is still widely regarded as a secular man, was the right man man in the wrong place. His concept of a new “State of Pakistan”, as he noted in his speech quoted above, was floated before the wrong audience. Everything doesn't sell everywhere.
Give me a break a nation for muslims of subcontinent how is that secular?
The secular, liberal, progressive forces of Pakistan have been dying a slow and painful death for decades.

Many others in Pakistan have fallen prey to such predators. The modus operandi of Salman's assassination reminded me the way Benazir Bhutto (BB, as I had come to call her towards the last days of her life) lost her life. Salman and BB, both died fighting intolerance — intolerance of religion, of democracy, of peace, of human rights. And, such crusaders die such deaths in Pakistan.
Isnt BB responsible for creating Telebunnies as well as acted as midwife for Kashmiri terrorists
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by darshhan »

Singha wrote:er um sherbano taseer the daughter is a newsweek reporter. late guv was likely on the US payroll in some way too...
op ed by her in NYT no less - http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/09/opini ... er.html?hp
Apparently this is one article she wrote for newsweek Pakistan regarding the same blasphemy issue.

http://www.newsweekpakistan.com/scope/177
Aasia Noreen’s hand trembled as she placed her ink-stained right thumb on a piece of paper marked for Pakistan’s president, Asif Ali Zardari, as the country’s founder, secularist Mohammad Ali Jinnah, peered down from his poker-faced portrait.

Languishing in Sheikhupura jail since June 2009, the illiterate mother of five is the first Pakistani woman to be given a death sentence on charge of blaspheming against Islam’s prophet. Since Nov. 20, the day she put her “signature” on the mercy petition, Noreen, 45, has become a lightning rod, arousing fervid sentiment across polarized Pakistan.

“These women were always harassing me about being Christian, and wanted me to convert,” says Noreen of the Muslim acquaintances in her hometown of Nankana Sahib (a place of religious significance for Sikhs) who went to a local cleric crying blasphemy. “I asked them to stop, and the next day I was picked up,” she told Newsweek Pakistan, her face hidden behind a veil. “I respect Prophet Mohammad [PBUH],” she adds.

Among Zardari’s ruling party, there is confusion. Sherry Rehman has tabled a bill seeking to amend the blasphemy laws, which were sharpened by dictator Gen. Zia-ul-Haq and, later, by his protégé, Nawaz Sharif. Her bill would make it difficult to misuse the laws. Former military ruler Pervez Musharraf made a similar attempt in 2000, but relented to pressure from clerics. Law minister and part-time televangelist Babar Awan has warned against such legislative efforts. This will not happen “in my presence as law minister,” he says.

Human rights organizations are demanding Noreen’s release, and protection. Even Pope Benedict XVI has weighed in and regretted Pakistan’s “violence and discrimination” against its Christian citizens. In May, the European Parliament adopted a resolution “welcoming the measures taken in the interest of religious minorities by the Government of Pakistan since November 2008,” but expressed “deep concern that the blasphemy laws ... are often used to justify censorship, criminalization, persecution, and, in certain cases, the murder of ... minorities.” The U.S. Commission on International Religious Freedom has hailed the government’s 2009 decision to observe every Aug. 11 as “national minorities’ day,” but is concerned about the blasphemy laws.

From 1986 to 2009, some 479 Muslims, 340 Ahmadis, 119 Christians, 14 Hindus, and 10 others have been charged under the laws, according to the National Commission for Justice and Peace, an advocacy group set up by Pakistan’s Catholic bishops. No one convicted of blasphemy has ever been executed by the state, but 32 accused—and two Muslim judges—have been mowed down by Islamist vigilantes. Rights activists like Aslam Khaki, who represented transgendered citizens in the Supreme Court, says Noreen should be imprisoned for life, if she is guilty, but not pardoned or sent into exile abroad. The latter, he says, because she “will be a source of negative propaganda against the country and the religion, like Mukhtaran Mai.”

The apex court is maintaining its silence over Noreen, who is appealing her lower-court conviction. The few who have called for calm have done so at their own peril: fatwas have been issued against Zardari and the Punjab governor, warning them against leniency toward her.

The Islamists and their apologists seem determined to not even consider the possibility that Noreen may be innocent. Extending that benefit of the doubt, they think, would be blasphemy.
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