Indian Military Aviation

nash · Post by **nash** » 12 Jan 2011 14:01

Kailash wrote:India to order 42 more HAL-produced Su-30MKIs

It seem like the total number of MKI will be 300+ ..

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Jan 2011 15:10

how many did we get from Rus before HAL started off on its 180 order ? = X

X + 180 + 42 + 40 = 262 + X

can anyone fill in this X ?

by any yardstick, this huge force is more powerful by itself than the AFs of almost every country!! 300 == 20 squadrons!!

looks like production will continue until 2017 or thereabouts for sure. earlier end date for HAL was 2014 @ 14 /annum ?

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 12 Jan 2011 16:33

the figure is 272.

40 ( Irkutsk ) + 180 (HAL) + 42 (now) + 10 (originally meant for Indonesia, but delivered in MKI standard)

42 to make up for the two losses. Fleet strength at current orders will stand at 270 by 2020.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 12 Jan 2011 18:12

D Roy wrote:the figure is 272.

40 ( Irkutsk ) + 180 (HAL) + 42 (now) + 10 (originally meant for Indonesia, but delivered in MKI standard)

42 to make up for the two losses. Fleet strength at current orders will stand at 270 by 2020.

Plus a further 40 direct from Irkutsk = 310

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 12 Jan 2011 18:25

Plus a further 40 direct from Irkutsk = 310

Not confirmed yet. But possible.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Jan 2011 19:00

HAL order was cleared on CCS in June 2010 itself. HAL would complete 180 by 2014 and start on these 42 which would take 3 more yrs if they produce @ 14 per annum.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 092315.cms

NEW DELHI: The Cabinet Committee on Security earlier this month quietly cleared one of the biggest defence orders of recent times.

The almost Rs 15,000 crore order for an additional 42 Sukhoi-30 MKI fighters would add up the total number of these modern Russian fighters for Indian Air Force to 272.

By the time HAL begins manufacture of the 42 aircraft sometime in 2014,.....

Read more: Rs 15,000 crore Sukhoi deal cleared - The Times of India http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... z1ApUB8hja

Read more: Rs 15,000 crore Sukhoi deal cleared - The Times of India http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... z1ApTtmiRS

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Jan 2011 19:04

I think there were reports in 2009 that IAF was buying from su30 and this order of 42 is it. yet to see a ref which clearly says Rus IAPO would be asked to produce 40 more directly (though would love to see that happen!)

http://forums.liveleak.com/showthread.php?t=58691

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 13 Jan 2011 01:40

Initial 1995 order for -50 aircrafts (including 18 Su30K)
140 order for HAL Domestic production
40 Ordered directly from Irkut in ~2008
42 now ordered directly from HAL

Total Ordered = 272
2 lost in accident and 18 K scrapped so total that IAF will get = 252

If 105 aircrafts have been delivered to IAF than that means -
HAL has manufactured 55 aircrafts so far and IAF has 85 MKI in srvice (18 Su30K scrapped and 2 lost)

Not a comforting picture, if my calculations are correct, for backbone of IAF.

Rupak · Post by **Rupak** » 13 Jan 2011 02:12

Katare your numbers seem are slightly off. The original plan was for the "upgrade" of the Su-30K/MKs but these were replaced with new build MKI's (at additional cost less the price of used K/Mk airframes) since the K/MK are structurally different.

Therefore the total order for MKI is for 272 - 2 lost = 270.

I wouldn't be surprised if more aircraft were ordered over time to tide over gaps that will be invariably left by retiring MiGs.

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 13 Jan 2011 02:33

Rupak,
Several people have reported that those initial 18 Su30K are still parked at Pune so I assumed they were never replaced? I have heard rumors and talks for several years but not seen any authentic report/news that additional 18 aircrafts were bought without returning 18 Su30K?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 13 Jan 2011 02:57

Instead of scrapping those 18 Ks, can't it be sold?

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 13 Jan 2011 03:22

Fresh plane tender for BSF after forgery
The Telegraph - Calcutta

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 13 Jan 2011 05:15

hmmm aircraft meant to fight Maoists by providing tactical & logistical support.. I think that sums it up.. You may choose to call it speculation or not, but definitely a hand from some from the CPI (M) which will leave the force to fight them without proper resources for at least another 3-5 years! Corruption is in the blood of Indian Politicians, they can never come together united for the sake of India.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 13 Jan 2011 08:05

R.I.P: Four years after lying in coma following ALH crash, IAF’s top Sarang stunt pilot Wg Cdr Jetly dies

Four years after the ill-fated crash of IAF’s Sarang ALH chopper in Bangalore, the pilot who hung on to life in a stage of coma, is no more. Wg Cdr V. Jatley passed away on January 11. Jetley’s co-pilot Sqn Ldr Priye Sharma had died during the crash in 2007.
...
...

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 13 Jan 2011 08:09

Katare wrote:Rupak,
Several people have reported that those initial 18 Su30K are still parked at Pune so I assumed they were never replaced? I have heard rumors and talks for several years but not seen any authentic report/news that additional 18 aircrafts were bought without returning 18 Su30K?

Well, you can still see 14 of them in google maps..

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source= ... 3&t=h&z=18

Gurneesh · Post by **Gurneesh** » 13 Jan 2011 08:18

^^^ What a waste, would these not be better than 14 Mig 21's.....

Oh wait, are we using them or are they just sitting there ?

neeraj · Post by **neeraj** » 13 Jan 2011 08:33

^^^^^
Not used - there is no way the planes can even taxi up on the runway at that angle.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 13 Jan 2011 08:34

Gurneesh wrote:^^^ What a waste, would these not be better than 14 Mig 21's.....

Oh wait, are we using them or are they just sitting there ?

Not if they have been flogged so much that their airframe life is close to over.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 13 Jan 2011 08:52

Those Su-30Ks were sent/sold back to Russia around 2005-2006. The images on Google map is outdated.

Rupak · Post by **Rupak** » 13 Jan 2011 09:17

Katare
I have seen the 30Ks parked in Pune as of last year. In there are probably 12-14 of them. I counted them but don't remember. No buyers were found for the aircraft. At one point Belarus was a potential customer. The aircraft were really flogged and their residual value must be very marginal. Still I am told that the aircraft were replaced by new build one based on the am amendment of the original contract where 'upgrade' to MKI standard was part of the deal.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 13 Jan 2011 09:33

When America keeps its old fighters in an Arizona airbase - it is a sign of strength and wisdom - those planes are ready to be dusted off and used in a desperate situation.

When India does the same to its old fighters what does it mean?

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 13 Jan 2011 09:35

Rupak wrote:Katare
I have seen the 30Ks parked in Pune as of last year. In there are probably 12-14 of them. I counted them but don't remember. No buyers were found for the aircraft. At one point Belarus was a potential customer. The aircraft were really flogged and their residual value must be very marginal. Still I am told that the aircraft were replaced by new build one based on the am amendment of the original contract where 'upgrade' to MKI standard was part of the deal.

Really? This is very surprising news to me. As I have said before, I have read it in multiple sources that around 2005-2006 they were sent back to Russia. It seems that the information was wrong.

Gurneesh · Post by **Gurneesh** » 13 Jan 2011 11:20

shiv wrote:When America keeps its old fighters in an Arizona airbase - it is a sign of strength and wisdom - those planes are ready to be dusted off and used in a desperate situation.

When India does the same to its old fighters what does it mean?

US has a host of newer aircraft lined up ahead of those in storage, while we are making do with an aircraft inventory majority of which is more than 2 decades old.

I still cannot understand how we are able to keep our mig's airworthy when they are atleast a decade old.

If we were to mlu these su 30k's, then even if they are not of mki levels in terms of capability, they will be much better than anything else that we have. It is anyway better than letting these sit idle.

IAF is surely not dumb so i must be missing something

...

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 13 Jan 2011 11:28

nachiket wrote:
Gurneesh wrote:^^^ What a waste, would these not be better than 14 Mig 21's.....

Oh wait, are we using them or are they just sitting there ?
Not if they have been flogged so much that their airframe life is close to over.

Very rarely do military aircraft reach this stage.

I have see 20 year aircraft with less than 2000-2300 hours on the clock.

They run out of spares well before that or hit some other road block or just side into obsolescence becoming very vulnerable to improved enemy defenses

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 13 Jan 2011 11:35

chetak wrote:
nachiket wrote:Not if they have been flogged so much that their airframe life is close to over.
Very rarely do military aircraft reach this stage.

I have see 20 year aircraft with less than 2000-2300 hours on the clock.

They run out of spares well before that or hit some other road block or just side into obsolescence becoming very vulnerable to improved enemy defenses

Also, if they were in that bad a shape, why would they try to sell them? THen again, perhaps that is precisely why they have not been sold!

Anyways, from what I recall, those Ks are every bit as good as a Su-30MKK that China sports, they sure impressed in Cope 04 - good enough performance for a small reserve I suppose, may be even serve as trainers. No need for MLU in this case.

CM

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 13 Jan 2011 11:42

the K's were flogged much more than normal squadron aircraft for IAF to get rapidly acquainted with the type. I remember some people here did a back of the envelope calculation using known hours on the type figures of su pilots and it did come out very high per year. more than 400 hours per year. the vanilla K has airframe life of 3000 hours IIRC. if more than one set of pilots used an aircraft it could easily come close to that number in 4-5 years.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 13 Jan 2011 11:49

Rahul M wrote:the K's were flogged much more than normal squadron aircraft for IAF to get rapidly acquainted with the type. I remember some people here did a back of the envelope calculation using known hours on the type figures of su pilots and it did come out very high per year. more than 400 hours per year. the vanilla K has airframe life of 3000 hours IIRC. if more than one set of pilots used an aircraft it could easily come close to that number in 4-5 years.

Rahul M saar,

To achieve that kind of utilization, there has to be matching maintenance effort to quickly bring it back to service.

If as you say it had a airframe life of 3000 hrs, some of the inspections would have comprised of fairly deep overhauls that would have taken it's own time.

In one example of another aircraft, it's 20 year life comprised of sitting on ground for nine odd years undergoing routine maintenance and deep overhauls. Mostly just awaiting it's turn on the already long line. It had done a grand total of 2300 hours during that time.

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 13 Jan 2011 12:02

Rupak wrote:Katare
I have seen the 30Ks parked in Pune as of last year. In there are probably 12-14 of them. I counted them but don't remember. No buyers were found for the aircraft. At one point Belarus was a potential customer. The aircraft were really flogged and their residual value must be very marginal. Still I am told that the aircraft were replaced by new build one based on the am amendment of the original contract where 'upgrade' to MKI standard was part of the deal.

Google Earth helps us put a timeline as well. Just use the timeline feature for historical imagery.... They first appear at the runway in storage mode on 7 Dec 2006 (14 of them), then again on 4 Feb 2007 (13), 24 Oct 2008 (13) and ofcourse the final one linked above - 28 Feb 2010. At the very least the aircraft are out in the elements for three and a half years!...

JimmyJ · Post by **JimmyJ** » 13 Jan 2011 12:02

Top stunt pilot of IAF dies after 4 yrs in coma

Jetly is survived by his wife Shalini, 40, and two children, Sukrit, 12, and Tanisha, 8.

“His suffering has ended. Vikas would have tears in his eyes when the children spoke to him. He would lie motionless and respond with long sighs. Perhaps, it was his way of communicating,” says Shalini Jetly.

She says, “I hope the IAF’s sympathies don’t end with the wreath. Nothing can compensate our loss, but a school job is the best gift they can give me.”

May the brave soul rest in peace.

ajit · Post by **ajit** » 13 Jan 2011 12:13

Gaur wrote:Really? This is very surprising news to me. As I have said before, I have read it in multiple sources that around 2005-2006 they were sent back to Russia. It seems that the information was wrong.

Satellite imagery as of Mar 1st, 2010 shows 14 'K's still parked at the south end of the unused runway.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 13 Jan 2011 12:28

they would make good decoys in various airbases with the right colour scheme, squadron badges and fake canards.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 13 Jan 2011 14:18

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/ ... ays&next=0

in this interview V K Saraswat confirms nirbhay, pgm, artillery gun work is focus area and even tank engine. he asks HAL to make all efforts to establish a well design Tejas production line.

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 13 Jan 2011 18:21

Those Su-30Ks might be being cannibalised for spares? They might also end up being on display in front of some Govt buildings and parks in the end.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 13 Jan 2011 19:37

Singha wrote:
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/ ... el=defense

in this interview V K Saraswat confirms nirbhay, pgm, artillery gun work is focus area and even tank engine. he asks HAL to make all efforts to establish a well design Tejas production line.

quoting the section of interest...

AW: Do you think the production agencies in India are geared up to take much of the work and deliver the same on time?

V.K.S: It is a major cause of concern for us how to integrate the fruits of our work through production agencies. Since we are a developing country and our needs are not definitely in large numbers, we will have to do the production in phases. The country can’t afford systems and missiles in very large numbers, so we are not setting up mass-scale facilities. We will have to live with the current production facilities, which need to gear up to take the challenging task. Take the case of Tejas. The limited series production platforms (eight) are almost over, and the parallel work has to begin for the series production. We need a real lean manufacturing system in place to deliver the first lot of 20 Tejas on time in required quality and quantity. And then there’s an additional order of another 20 to execute. My assessment is that there should be much more effort from the production agencies to take the Tejas program forward.

AW: So there is a concern about Tejas deliveries?

V.K.S.: Yes. There’s a concern and at all forums we have expressed this. But now what we are doing is working with Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) and its production centers. Whatever is required for the development activities, we have told them to keep it in the present form. And what is required for the production of Tejas, a lean manufacturing process should be in place. We must have good supply chain lines, good contractors (tier I, II) and state-of-the-art tooling systems. We should have excellent methods of contracting, monitoring, evaluating and integrating every work. While we have some of these in patches, HAL needs to consolidate all this into a great process. Some lessons are also coming from Sukhoi MKI production in Nasik, but there’s lot more required.

An efficient production method has yet to be put in place by HAL as far as LCA is concerned. Again, the configuration for the 20 will be different from the next 20. It is not like a repetitive production. Remember, India is manufacturing an indigenous fighter for the first time which is been designed and developed in the country. We have to still learn many things on real-time product improvement, based on the feedback from the user. As of now, it is not a production line which is well-oiled. We are talking to HAL and they have agreed to do their best. Only time will tell how much we were able to implement.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 13 Jan 2011 20:46

Gurulog,
Can someone tell me what the lone Canberra is doing on the tarmac in lohegaon???
Sorry for deviating off the topic...

ajit · Post by **ajit** » 13 Jan 2011 22:07

This is an image of Bareilly dated Jan 8, 2009.

I suspect what we see are the 4 Su-30 Ks missing from Lohegaon. Those appeared at Bareilly between May 2006 and Jan 2009 as per Google earth imagery dates.

BTW, the 3 Canberras are seen even in Oct 2003 imagery.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 13 Jan 2011 22:20

waste of parking space...

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 14 Jan 2011 04:35

If they have been replaced, like Rupak is suggesting, with newer MKI by Sukhoi than those old K aircrafts are actually property of Russia and none of our concern!

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 14 Jan 2011 04:52

well, shouldn't be in use somewhere to keep them in condition.. else it would soon be rusted and junked.

Gurneesh · Post by **Gurneesh** » 14 Jan 2011 04:56

Even if they belong to Russia we can buy them an quickly get a squadron. They should come fairly cheap...