Su-30: News and Discussion

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Arya Sumantra
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Arya Sumantra » 09 Jan 2011 02:45

^^^ Not sure about movie. Inspite of the title it is actually Su 30 and not 35. It's got canards. The missile dodging part is indeed CGI.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby nachiket » 09 Jan 2011 03:20

Arya Sumantra wrote:^^^ Not sure about movie. Inspite of the title it is actually Su 30 and not 35. It's got canards. The missile dodging part is indeed CGI.

The original Su-35 did have canards. The new Su-35BM version doesn't.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby suryag » 09 Jan 2011 04:44

I remember reading somewhere that the pilot had to flip a switch to do the cobra on su30, is that true or is it now all automated

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby andy B » 09 Jan 2011 05:54

Arya Sumantra wrote:^^^ Not sure about movie. Inspite of the title it is actually Su 30 and not 35. It's got canards. The missile dodging part is indeed CGI.


Arya saan, that jet is IIRC the 35 UB the camouflage and the bort number 305 was allocated to the twin seater SU 35 UB and the other flanker in the vid seems to be the RUAF SU 27 SM upgrade of the basic Flanker...

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Shameek » 10 Jan 2011 00:51

President Awards standards to 31 Squadron.

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2011/01/president-awards-standards-to-iafs-31.html

The pic of the 3 Sukhois coming in from the backdrop is menacing! :twisted:

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Arya Sumantra » 10 Jan 2011 02:57

andy B wrote:Arya saan, that jet is IIRC the 35 UB the camouflage and the bort number 305 was allocated to the twin seater SU 35 UB and the other flanker in the vid seems to be the RUAF SU 27 SM upgrade of the basic Flanker...

Su35 UB with a canard is indeed difficult to distinguish externally from a mki. The larger dimensions of 35 do not lend themselves easily in a video.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby nits » 13 Jan 2011 11:49

India to order 42 more HAL-produced Su-30MKIs

Hindustan Aeronautics expects the Indian air force to order an additional 42 locally produced Sukhoi Su-30MKIs.The possible order would come on top of the 180 Su-30MKIs HAL is already producing for the air force, says company chairman Ashok Nayak.About 105 aircraft from the 180-strong order have been delivered so far, Nayak says. In addition, in mid-2010, India ordered 40 Su-30MKIs as flyaways from Russia's Sukhoi.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 13 Jan 2011 12:27

From Nits link above states 105 delivered by HAl, so would that make the current IAF fleet 50 russian delivered +105 HAL delivered making the total fleet 155 aircraft?

As per the link 40 have been ordered in fly away condition in mid 2010 so that makes 40 original order + 10 meant for Indonasia+ 140 Original HAL +40 Russia additional order + 40 HAL additional order + 42 new order HAL. Therefore total fleet strength of SU-30 MKI by 2017 = 312-2 crashes= 310

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Philip » 13 Jan 2011 12:47

That was an aerial ballet performance worthy of the famous Bolshoi or Kirov dancers! The kilbuts are simply amazing.The aircraft appears to simply float in the air,spin like a top,pirouette like a ballerina,testament to the immense power of its engines and magnificent aerodynamic design.One can't wait to see how the FGFA performs in comparison!

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby koti » 13 Jan 2011 13:52

India to order 42 more HAL-produced Su-30MKIs


Could this be for the SFC?

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby nits » 13 Jan 2011 14:01

Aditya_V wrote:From Nits link above states 105 delivered by HAl, so would that make the current IAF fleet 50 russian delivered +105 HAL delivered making the total fleet 155 aircraft?

As per the link 40 have been ordered in fly away condition in mid 2010 so that makes 40 original order + 10 meant for Indonasia+ 140 Original HAL +40 Russia additional order + 40 HAL additional order + 42 new order HAL. Therefore total fleet strength of SU-30 MKI by 2017 = 312-2 crashes= 310


Now i am also confused... Wiki dada says that IAF will have 280 by year 2020 and if we add this 42 (-2 crash) it comes to 320...

Development of the variant started after India signed a deal with Russia in 2000 to manufacture 140 Su-30 fighter jets.The first Russian-made Su-30MKI variant was accepted into the Indian Airforce in 2002, while the first indigenously assembled Su-30MKI entered service with the IAF in 2004. In 2007, the IAF ordered 40 additional MKIs. As of July 2010, the IAF has 124 MKIs under active service with plans to have an operational fleet of 280 MKIs by 2015

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 13 Jan 2011 14:08

do MKI squadrons specialize in A2G or A2G or same pilots are expected to perform both roles and all sqdns are omnirole?

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Kakarat » 13 Jan 2011 14:16

Currently there are 6 Squadrons of Su-30MKI (2, 8, 20, 24, 30, 31)

6X20 = 120

And according to Vayu V/2010 Squadron No.102 is being re-raised with Su-30MKI for AFB Chabua

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby shiv » 13 Jan 2011 19:05

Arya Sumantra wrote:^^^ Not sure about movie. Inspite of the title it is actually Su 30 and not 35. It's got canards. The missile dodging part is indeed CGI.



Some other parts look artificial too.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby nachiket » 13 Jan 2011 19:12

Aditya_V wrote:From Nits link above states 105 delivered by HAl, so would that make the current IAF fleet 50 russian delivered +105 HAL delivered making the total fleet 155 aircraft?

As per the link 40 have been ordered in fly away condition in mid 2010 so that makes 40 original order + 10 meant for Indonasia+ 140 Original HAL +40 Russia additional order + 40 HAL additional order + 42 new order HAL. Therefore total fleet strength of SU-30 MKI by 2017 = 312-2 crashes= 310


There is only one additional HAL order for 42. So the total number is 272 - 2 lost = 270. Out of the new 42, 40 could be for the SFC. The 40 to come directly from Russia might have the strengthened airframes capable of carrying the Brahmos.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby VibhavS » 13 Jan 2011 20:26

nits wrote: India to order 42 more HAL-produced Su-30MKIs

Hindustan Aeronautics expects the Indian air force to order an additional 42 locally produced Sukhoi Su-30MKIs.The possible order would come on top of the 180 Su-30MKIs HAL is already producing for the air force, says company chairman Ashok Nayak.About 105 aircraft from the 180-strong order have been delivered so far, Nayak says. In addition, in mid-2010, India ordered 40 Su-30MKIs as flyaways from Russia's Sukhoi.


Just a thought are these going to the base confirguration SU's coming to us? Or is there a possibility that the avionics and engines of these birds might get a SU-35 boost? A dream would be the incorporation of the X Band AESA Radar (for the leading edge of the wing) that the russian have been developing for the PAK FA.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby kmc_chacko » 13 Jan 2011 21:05

IAF should have asked for 80+ Su-35s instead of 42 fro HAL & 40 from Russia i.e., 180 Su-30Mki's for A2G role & 80 Su-35Mkis for Air dominence

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Cain Marko » 13 Jan 2011 21:52

Lots of conphusion re. MKI nos, but there need be none;

Original 32-50 from Russia with love - delivered by 2005 iirc

HAL production for 140 starts in 2004 - 75 delivered by 2010 (TOI article) + 28 to be delivered in 2010 ~ 105 delivered to date (corroborates above article).

40 ordered direct again from Irkut (2007) - deliveries supposed to complete soon.

42 ordered from HAL (2010) - production to start around 2014 and delivered by 2017.

That is it imho - 272 total orders till 2017. So far HAL deliveries are around 105 a/c and 32/50 original from Russia = about 130 -150 MKIs hanging around somewhere in INdia.

Intriguing question - what happened to 2007 order of 40 from Irkut? IIRC they were to be delivered express by 2010-2011?

Btw, I'd love to see that innovative radar blocker design on the MKI MLU.

CM.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby JTull » 13 Jan 2011 22:55

What about the replacements for 10 Su-30Ks? When were they delivered?

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby srai » 14 Jan 2011 02:23

Cain Marko wrote:...

HAL production for 140 starts in 2004 - 75 delivered by 2010 (TOI article) + 28 to be delivered in 2010 ~ 105 delivered to date (corroborates above article).

...

CM.


I don't think HAL has produced that many MKIs.

Going by BR's IAF Fleet Strength page, which was updated last in 15 Dec 2010:

98 Su-30MKIs -> with 6 squadrons (2, 8, 20, 24, 30, 31) @16 a/c per sqdn

Going by this, it would seem HAL has only produced around 50 MKIs so far. The rest, 50 MKIs, being directly delivered by Irkut, Russia. This is actually quite accurate given that HAL is only producing 12 to 14 MKIs a year and had suffered some serious manufacturing delays at the beginning.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby nachiket » 14 Jan 2011 05:10

^^That page lists the numbers of Mig-29s and Mirage-2000s at 54 and 46 respectively, lower than the usual numbers quoted in the press (68 and 51). It actually sounds about right. Considering that we have only 3 squadrons of 29s, I never understood where that 68 number came from (unless each Mig-29 squadron is overstrength)

That page also brings out the enormity of the numbers crunch facing the IAF. There are 90 Mig-21M/MFs still in frontline service with the IAF, which must be getting seriously long in the tooth now. But the IAF, in its wisdom, has decided not to go in for more LCA Mk1s beyond the 40 ordered. Hope they change that decision soon.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby sankum » 14 Jan 2011 05:13

Around October 2010 the reported figure of Su30 from HAL was 80 nos and direct from was Russia 50 nos i.e 130 nos. 2 have crashed therefore net 128nos. This was a newspaper report on HAL.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby srai » 14 Jan 2011 07:08

Su-30MKI Procurement
... In October 2000, a MoU (Memorandum of Understanding) was signed confirming the license production of 140+ Su-30MKIs and in December 2000, the deal was sealed at Russia's Irkutsk aircraft plant, with full technology transfer. The first Su-30MKIs from Nasik are to be delivered from 2004, with the original plan of carrying production up to 2017-18. However in November 2002, it was decided that the delivery schedule would be completed within ten years - by 2014 - by increasing the annual rate of production from 10 to 14 aircraft annually. ...


As of March 2010, sources in the Indian Defense Ministry announced that a contract for 42 more Su-30MKI was in the final phases.[20][22] In June 2010, it was reported that the Cabinet Committee on Security had cleared the 15,000 crore (US$3.26 billion) deal and that the 42 aircraft would be in service by 2018.[23] Out of these 42 aircraft being procured, 2 were for replacements against those aircraft that crashed in 2009. ...


From the above report, it would seem that this report of 42 additional MKIs are the ones that were in negotiation back in March 2010. The contract must have been finally signed. In some sense, this is recycling old news ... which is causing confusion.

Also, if you look at that 2018 timeline and do some simple calculations, here is what I get:

Given,
  • 14 MKIs a year (average over 10 years) -> initially back in 2004 there were major delays and to even get to 10 quantities took at least a couple of years. There were reports that peak production would be around 17 MKIs/year.
  • 2014-2016 -> Target date for delivering all 140 MKIs under initial contract

So if the 140 MKIs are delivered by 2015 and average production remains at 14 MKIs/year, it will take 3 years to deliver the second batch of 42 MKIs. [ 14 MKis * 3 years = 42 MKIs] This means first of these second batch will commence around 2015/16 and the last delivery would take place sometime in 2018.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Rupak » 14 Jan 2011 07:49

Nachiket,
Please note that what is listed on the orbat page is the unit establishment of squadrons. In addition to these aircraft are maintaince and attrition reserves.

Example:
Total number of Mirage inducted: 49 + 10 = 59
Number lost: 7
Balance: 52

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Cain Marko » 14 Jan 2011 16:46

Srai,
You could be right:

Even if you calculate at a mere 12 a/c per year, you get about 12X6 (deliveries started in late 04) ~ 76 a/c. At 14 p.annum, the number would be 84 so far. Add to that the 32 originally delivered via Russia, and you have a number or around 110 MKI.

Another possibility is that initial prodn numbers were around 8-10 per annum, and were later ramped up to more than double that number.

In any case, what has happened to that batch of 40 ordered in 2007? I thought they were to be delivered around 2010-11 (Or were deliveries to start then)?

JTull,
I have no idea how the replacements for the K fits into all this. IIRC, 10Ks came from Indonesia and 8 direct from Roos. Russia delivered only about 32 MKI since 2002.

CM.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby prithvi » 15 Jan 2011 02:31

Was exploring some SU-30 MKI pics in airliners.net. Came across this brand new one fresh out of factory. looking at the quality of "cleanliness" of the runaway tarmac I am glad that it is being towed and not in his own power...


Image

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby srai » 15 Jan 2011 05:01

Cain Marko wrote:Srai,
You could be right:

Even if you calculate at a mere 12 a/c per year, you get about 12X6 (deliveries started in late 04) ~ 76 a/c. At 14 p.annum, the number would be 84 so far. Add to that the 32 originally delivered via Russia, and you have a number or around 110 MKI.

Another possibility is that initial prodn numbers were around 8-10 per annum, and were later ramped up to more than double that number.

In any case, what has happened to that batch of 40 ordered in 2007? I thought they were to be delivered around 2010-11 (Or were deliveries to start then)?

JTull,
I have no idea how the replacements for the K fits into all this. IIRC, 10Ks came from Indonesia and 8 direct from Roos. Russia delivered only about 32 MKI since 2002.

CM.


Going by this Vayu Sena - The Su-30MKI Info Page and this Irkut's 07.12.04 Press Release: Third Phase Su-30MKI Delivery To India Started :

* All 32 MKIs manufactured in Russia delivered sometime by Dec 2004 in Phases I/II/III.
  • Phase I -> 10 MKI (SB019 - SB028)
  • Phase II -> 12 MKI (SB029 - SB040)
  • Phase III -> 10 MKI (SB041 - SB050)

* HAL manufactured (with the first planes assembled from knockdown kits supplied by Russia) under Phase III
  • SB101 -> First flight Oct 01, 2004. Commisioned into IAF 28.Nov.2004
  • As of 26-Sept-2006, Russia had provided 26 SU-30MKI kits to HAL.

Note: The programme provided for a gradual increase in the number of parts and components produced locally. This was fully realized sometime late in 2010.


As for the 18 Su-30K, there were reports back in 2006 that they were to be sold to Belarus.
2006-02-08 Moscow: In an estimated USD 300 million deal, Belarus is to buy 18 second-hand Sukhoi SU-30k fighters from India for the modernisation of the aging Air Force of this former Soviet Republic. ...

Apparently, this deal did not happen because the recent GoogleMap is still showing 14 at Lohegaon AFS and 4 at Bareilly AFS. Maybe this can be considered "deep" reserves ;) It would seem there was no direct 18 new replacement swap of these via Russia (although there were reports back around that time). Instead, IAF ordered 40 MKIs from Irkut in 2007, which means 18 in this order were the replacements for these retired Su-30Ks.


As for the 40 MKI follow-on order placed in 2007, this Dec 7/09 news sheds some light.
... Out of these three aircraft have been delivered to the Indian Air Force and delivery of the remaining aircraft is expected to be completed by 2011-12.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby BajKhedawal » 15 Jan 2011 08:47

prithvi wrote:Was exploring some SU-30 MKI pics in airliners.net. Came across this brand new one fresh out of factory. looking at the quality of "cleanliness" of the runaway tarmac I am glad that it is being towed and not in his own power...
http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/photos/6/9/2/1645296.jpg


Needs a FOD walk, man.

Brings back found memories of those bleak winter nights at -35 C with the windchill ofcourse, at LBP.

Oh the things I have done for roti… and yet after 7 & 1/2 sani is still not pleased. :((

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 15 Jan 2011 09:56

looking at the tree and truck must be the IAPO plant in irkutsk...could be strong winds blow around these things a lot..cant be a picnic to live in siberia.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby SaiK » 15 Jan 2011 10:46


Cain Marko
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Cain Marko » 15 Jan 2011 11:57

The above pic is dated 8/2009, and it is Irkutsk - great find! If they are making the MKI in Irkut plant around 2009, then HAL ain't the only one delivering the babies. WHich could mean a) that the above bird is part of the replacement for the 18 Ks OR b) IAPO was given another order that noone really caught! In either case, IAF numbers are again not as low as they seem.

Assuming that HAL has averaged a meager 12 a/c p.a since 2004 towards their original order of 140, and the above are the 18 K replacements, and the fact that 32 were delivered by 2005-6, we get a total of 72+18+32 = 122 MKIs. Now what about the HAL contract for 40 additional birds signed in 2007, deliverable by 2011-12? Surely some of these have been delivered already. The article from DID (thanks to Srai) points out that 3 were delivered in 2009, and that deliveries of the 40 were expected to be over by 2012!

Further, IIRC it had also been mentioned that cost escalations had occurred because the original order of 140 from HAL had been expedited. That means that by 2014 HAL is expected to deliver 180 birds (40 contracted in 2007-2012 and 140 contracted till 2014) - now if it has just produced a mere 80-90 as of now, it'll have to churn out another 90+ in the next 3-4 years - v.unlikely. Logically, they have been producing at a much higher rate in the past few years (close to 20 per year from 2007 imho).

The article posted by Nits (flightglobal) is starting to make sense, HAL has been busy! The 155 number thrown about by Aditya seems not so far from reality. My guesstimate still stands between 135-155! 32+18 via IAPO, 65-70 of original 140 (as stated by AWST) @ 10-12 p.a., plus 20 from 2007 contract.

Revised estimate:

2004 - 2014 - 180 MKI (140 original but expedited order + 40 additnal from 2007 order) - based on Ashok Nayak's statement (article via Nits as well as Antony's quote in DID)
42 - 2014 onwards from HAL.
32 - MKI - Irkut delivered by 2005-6
18 - Ks to be replaced by MKI (as above) - probly delivered by now.

Total ~ 272 MKI out of which more than half are probably already in the air.

CM.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby D Roy » 15 Jan 2011 13:06

Posting in full. this is from end June last year.

NEW DELHI: The Cabinet Committee on Security earlier this month quietly cleared one of the biggest defence orders of recent times.

The almost Rs 15,000 crore order for an additional 42 Sukhoi-30 MKI fighters would add up the total number of these modern Russian fighters for Indian Air Force to 272.

When the entire Sukhoi-30 MKIs, including the 42, are delivered to IAF by around 2018, it would become the single largest type of fighters in service, marking a huge technological transition from the dominance of MIG-21 fighters today.

A senior official said the CCS cleared the new order in the first week of June.

By the time HAL begins manufacture of the 42 aircraft sometime in 2014, each of them would cost in the range of Rs 350 crore, according to present day projections.

The new order for Sukhoi-30 MKIs comes even as attention is fully on the tender floated by the Air Force for $10 billion worth 126 MMRCA (medium multi role combat aircraft). But by the time the MMRCA enters the service, it would be the Sukhoi-30 MKI that would actually be the dominant fighter of the Air Force. And the combined contract value of SU-30 MKIs would be more than double that of the MMRCA.

The Su-30 MKI was originally contracted in 1996, when the Russian military-industrial complex was in a shambles after the Soviet Union collapsed. Its design and capabilities, however, continues to impress globally.

The initial contract was for 50 fighters, at $1.46 billion. Over the years, the numbers kept increasing. In 2000, the government contracted the licenced production of 140 of these highly advanced fighters by the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited. Then another 40 were added to the contract.

The present order for 42 fighters was originally supposed to be 40, but two more were added to the order book to make up for the two crashed fighters. A senior official said that HAL is expected to complete all the SU-30 MKI orders by 2016-17 period.

HAL has been steadily stepping up its Sukhoi-30 MKI delivery schedules. While last year it delivered 23 of these fighters, this year it is expected to produce 28. HAL has already supplied 74 of these fighters.

The Times of India http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... z1B5aQxlY4
Last edited by D Roy on 15 Jan 2011 13:41, edited 1 time in total.

prithvi

Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby prithvi » 15 Jan 2011 13:19

if anyone wonders how the Su 30s got delivered initially by Ruslans...
Image
Image

prithvi

Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby prithvi » 15 Jan 2011 13:21

Indonesian Sukhoi 30s being delivered
Image

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby D Roy » 15 Jan 2011 13:24

Moreover from Orbat:

From reader Sparsh Amin The Indian Air Force's next Su-30 squadron will be No. 102, which used to operate the Foxbat MiG-25. He suspects a seventh Su-30 squadron is delayed because the IAF's tactical development/evaluation organization now has a Su-30 flight.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby D Roy » 15 Jan 2011 13:26

well the two in the first picture are Mig 29s. But of course as an illustrative example it serves its purpose.

prithvi

Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby prithvi » 15 Jan 2011 13:31

D Roy wrote:well the two in the first picture are Mig 29s. But of course as an illustrative example it serves its purpose.


stand corrected...don't know how i missed it... may be couple of more bacardi than usual...

prithvi

Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby prithvi » 15 Jan 2011 13:33

prithvi wrote:if anyone wonders how the Su 30s got delivered initially by Ruslans...
Image
Image


just curious where do we get our sukhois knocked down kit delivered..?HAL aerodrome?

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby D Roy » 15 Jan 2011 13:44

the first 4 MKIs were delivered by the Condor directly to Lohegaon. And the domestically produced SU-30 is delivered by HAL Nasik (final assembly)
Last edited by D Roy on 15 Jan 2011 13:51, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby D Roy » 15 Jan 2011 13:49

More
this is October 2009.
Having inducted 105 of the 230 Sukhois till now, IAF has already begun to base these jets in the North-East in a clear move to counter China's rapid modernisation of its armed forces. Incidentally, Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd has been directed to complete the manufacture of 140 of the 230 Sukhois under transfer of technology by 2015 at all costs.


The Times of India http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... z1B5l8Yu6k


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