Two-G (2G) Spectrum Scam Tapes and follow-up

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 08 Jan 2011 07:04

It reminds one of the antics of Caliph Uthman's regime in Arabia.

arjunm · Post by **arjunm** » 08 Jan 2011 08:04

Yesterday L.K Advani and other top BJP leader wrote a letter to PM concerning massive corruptions in the country
Got it by E-mail.

> Dear Prime Minister,
> There has been a large number of expose which have recently come into the public domain in relation to the corruption in high places. The scandals relating to the allotment of the 2G spectrum has exposed the huge volume of loss caused to the public exchequer. The scandals in the organization of the Commonwealth Games at New Delhi have tainted the organization of the international event and created a negative environment around it. The order of the Income Tax Appellate Tribunal authorizing the levy of tax on the kickbacks received in the Bofors case by middlemen and tax evaders has conclusively exposed the twenty three years attempt by the beneficiaries and their political masters to cover up the payment of kick-backs. They have also proved conclusively that those close to then Prime Minister's family were among the recipients of the kickbacks.
>
> Needless to say that the location of this tainted money is not necessarily in India. Monies earned out of crime and monies tainted by corruption can be located in any part of the world. The motivation for such location is both to hide the tainted money as also to evade taxes on the same. Tax havens located in various parts of the world have provided a safe haven for this money. The motivation to keep money in these tax havens is that they provide a veil of secrecy around their banking system and protect holders of the accounts and its beneficiaries. The economy of these havens thrives on the location of the tainted money.
>
> It is no secret that businessmen, hawala dealers and those involved in forbidden and unlawful business and also politicians and civil servants have located some of their monetary assets in these tax havens.
>
> Under the conventional system it has been reasonably difficult to unveil the secrecy behind these accounts. Conventionally it was only based on the existence of a bilateral arrangement following the principle of dual criminality that some tax havens assured cooperation to investigators. Some other tax havens did not even oblige with the cooperation even when the money deposited therein was a profit of crime which was recognized as a crime in both countries.
>
> The U.N. has adopted a Convention against Corruption. Out of 240 countries who were signatories to this convention,14 countries have not ratified the Convention and India is one of them. Several countries in the world have brought pressure on the Swiss authorities persuading them to make disclosure with regard to wealth stashed abroad. The countries like USA, Germany amongst many others have even received the list of beneficiaries of account holders from Switzerland. India has taken no such proactive steps. A Task Force appointed by the Working Chairperson of the "National Democratic Alliance" has come out with an extensive report on this issue. We are annexing herewith a copy of the recommendations of that Task Force comprising eminent persons.
>
> Our apprehension is that the reluctance of the UPA Government to take proactive steps on this front is motivated by the fear of self-incrimination. After all the Volcker report of a Committee appointed by the United Nations in the `Food for Oil' scam had named the Congress Party as one of the beneficiaries. The investigations of our investigating agencies and our Revenue agencies have conclusively proved as reflected in the order of the ITAT that amongst the beneficiaries of the kickbacks in the Bofors bribery case was Ottavio Quattrochi through front companies like AE Services and Cole Bar Investments. The relationship of Ottavio Quattrochi and his wife Maria with the first family of the Congress Party is a matter of public knowledge and cannot be disputed.
>
> The investigative report in a recent Swiss journal.. `Sehweizer Illustrirte' dated 19/11/91 have named 14 global leaders of the Third World countries with accounts in Switzerland. The name of a former Indian Prime Minister was also mentioned. This report has never been denied. Some startling revelations in a book "The State within a State -- The KGB hold on Russia in past and future" by Dr. Yevgenia Alberts mentions the benefits received by a former prime Minister of India and his family for benefits accruing from commercial dealings with the Soviets.
>
> These are researched pieces put out as articles or books. The targets of investigations have not denied these allegations formally nor have they taken action against the impugned publications. It is important for government to ensure that the fair name of India and its leaders, past and present, including any former Prime Minister, is not sullied. So, either these allegations must be effectively rebutted or they must be investigated.
>
> Shri L.K.Advani, working Chairperson of the NDA as also various constituents of the NDA have on several occasions raised the issue of a proactive role of the Government of India in unearthing this money. Our prime motivation was that corruption must end or at least be de-incentivized. The Prime Minister had responded in the 2009 elections by categorically declaring that UPA would take effective steps within 100 days of the election to unearth this crime money. Regrettably, the role of the UPA Government in this regard has been disappointing.
>
> Thus it is important and necessary that this environment of suspicion leading to the loss of credibility of public life in India is removed. This can only be done if all these matters are investigated and the truth is discovered. The truth can only be discovered if the Government of India takes proactive steps as suggested in the Task Force report as also the steps taken by several other countries in order to investigate and find out the details of the monies stashed abroad by Indians.
>
>>
> Sd/-
> L.K. Advani
> Working President, N.D.A.
>
> Sd/-
> Nitin Gadkari
> President, BJP
>
> Sd/-
> Sharad Yadav
> Convenor, N.D.A.
>
>
> Sd/-
> Sushma Swaraj
> LOP (LS)
>
> Sd/-
> Arun Jaitley
> LOP (RS)
>
> Sd/-
> Shivanand Tiwari
> Leader JD (U), RS
>
>
> Sd/-
> A.R.Adsul
> Chief Whip (Shiv Sena)
>
>
>
> Sd/-
> Naresh Gujral
> Leader SAD (RS)
> http://www.bjp.org/content/view/3782/394/
>
>
>
>
>

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 08 Jan 2011 09:05

Got via email and here is the new numbers game

1 Crore= Khoka,
500 Crore= 1 Koda.
1,000 Crore=1 Radia (Niira Radia, 2G spectrum fame).
10000 Crore= 1 Kalmadi (Commonwealth games scandal fame)
100,000 Crore= 1Raja (2G spectrum fame)
10 KALMADI +1 RAJA = 1 SHARAD PAWAR
10 SHARAD PAWAR = 1 SONIA

Manu · Post by **Manu** » 08 Jan 2011 17:59

Rahul Mehta wrote:Why does every EVERY single journalist refer to MMS as honest? MMS is the biggest bribe-seeker and bribe-collecting PM India ever saw. And I doubt if any future PM can break his record. Yet every journalist calls him honest and forget journalist, even every single BJP leader calls MMS as honest and man with utmost integrity blah blah blah ... As much as I am now sick of Viceroy MMS, the bhakti shown by journalist is more sickening.

Can someone rise and yell "The Emperor is indeed naked"? 10k TIAs

I don't know if this is the result of having lost an election or your mind, but can you please STFU?

MMS, ABV, LKA are NOT 'bribe-seekers'.

You have never had any kind of access to the kind of people who would have that knowledge.

So please dole out other pearls of wisdom to your large and delirious fan following on BR, but no mud slinging on MMS, ABV or LKA.

I am not a fan of MMS, but to accuse him of being a bribe-seeker is sheer stupidity.

Thanks in advance for your cooperation and happy new year.

Raghavendra · Post by **Raghavendra** » 08 Jan 2011 19:06

2G: Oppn calls Sibal's zero loss stand bizarre
http://www.zeenews.com/news679294.html

archan · Post by **archan** » 08 Jan 2011 22:29

Manu, he has long since been banned and will not return to share more of his wisdom on BRF.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 09 Jan 2011 02:09

Mr Sibal going like that is like when a thief is caught, and tells the cops not 100 trillion but only about 100 billion I stole. Now, let the thief have some decent ways of living will you guys!?

jee...

saket · Post by **saket** » 09 Jan 2011 07:31

I dont know whether this belongs here but this is the latest Big Fight http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/the-bi ... /186360?hp

Manish Tewari is hammered on Bofors by Subramaniam Swamy, Joginder Singh, Mukul Rohatgi and Tavleen Singh.

Interestingly, Swamy and Tavleen both forcefully assert that there was collusion by NDA at the PM level with the Congress to go slow on Bofors. Mukul Rohatgi also hints at a collusion. Specifically the question as to why the NDA did not appeal the erroneous judgment of Delhi HC of Feb 2004 before the next govt formed in May remains a mystery much as Jaitley might want to explain it away.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 09 Jan 2011 07:36

There is a soft corner not to drag the late PM thru mud after his death.

Dhiman · Post by **Dhiman** » 09 Jan 2011 12:27

The public is so used to hearing garbage from ministers that these idots (Sibal being a prime example) feel absolutely no hesitation in giving out statements for misleading and deluding the public. Somebody should ask Sibal if he would be willing to be held accountable for his statements, i.e if he is willing to be prosecuted to the full extent of the law for deliberately trying to mislead the public and cover-up the scam.

With such brazen statements, its obvious that these fools have absolutely no fear of being held accountable and no intention of serving the public interest. *Deleted*. A corrupt cabal that is part of a corrupt political establishment that is ruling this country and attempting to subvert various populations of this country by various means in order to enrich themselves.

Arunkumar · Post by **Arunkumar** » 09 Jan 2011 20:01

http://netindian.in/news/2011/01/09/000 ... ssued-raja

The Supreme Court will hear tomorrow two petitions seeking cancellation of all the licenses of 2G spectrum issued by former Communications Minister A Raja.

The petitioners, Janata party president Subramanian Swamy and Mr Prashant Bhushan, an advocate, have prayed to the apex court that in view of the collosal loss of Rs 1.76 lakh crores caused to the national exchequer by Mr Raja who allotted 2G spectrum licenses in gross violation of the government policy and rules, all the 122 licenses should be cancelled.

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 09 Jan 2011 20:24

^ The licenses are to be cancelled with certain grace period and repayment of just costs. Then the fun will begin. It is like cancelling all the tickets to the movie and repaying the price of movie tickets to the original buyers of the movie tickets. Only exception being, it is movie that is shown continuously for which it is more like a movie pass than tickets.

Once that happens all the secondary and other buyers who bought the ticket from blackmarkets, bribing high and mighty will be left high and dry. Then the guys who took bribes will surely come under the gun of guys who gave bribes. (will be fun to watch)
Reissuing licenses based on proper procedure, will help deter future corruption. However, the loot that has happened has to be brought back. The people who took bribes have to pay a price, monetary and politically. It should be career ending punishment. People get thrown into jails for petty crimes.
The enigma of MMS in this whole saga is unclear, until he plays his next card. His silence is speaking volumes, for an image conscious individual, he has developed a thick skin (a requirement for being a scheming politician; which he wants to avoid being known as) to not squirm even when Supreme Court chides him for his disinterest. How many PMs get chided by SC?

1) either he knows who the beneficiaries are
or
2) he genuinely doesn't want to know who the beneficiaries are.
If it is 2, then he needs to resign immediately. If 1, have to wait for his next card that he plays.

Dhiman · Post by **Dhiman** » 10 Jan 2011 02:28

JwalaMukhi wrote: ^ The licenses are to be cancelled with certain grace period and repayment of just costs. Then the fun will begin. It is like cancelling all the tickets to the movie and repaying the price of movie tickets to the original buyers of the movie tickets. Only exception being, it is movie that is shown continuously for which it is more like a movie pass than tickets.

Once that happens all the secondary and other buyers who bought the ticket from blackmarkets, bribing high and mighty will be left high and dry.

The only two things that have actually happened since the scam broke is that 1) some telecom companies had to pay small fines for non implementation of their original ill-gotten license agreements which looks more like a step to legitimize the ill-gotten licenses. and 2) Raja had to take a force retirement which seems more like a PR gimmick - I mean if I made billions, I would consider retirement as a reward so that I can enjoy my billions in Swiss accounts.

My point being, so far all this useless song and dance is just that: useless song and dance without any real action to either rectify the scam or god forbid something actually common sense such as canceling the licenses and putting the criminals behind the bars. Again, this is all just talk and circus play with no real action taking place so far and it remains to be seen if the unprecedented step of actually reversing the licenses or punishing the guilty will ever happen. There is NO precedent in the system to show that guilty will be punished. punishment is for lowly people like us not for netas. These netas are saints, they are above worldly matters. For them all reward is too small and all punishment is too big.

If Rajiv Gandhi is guilty of taking Bofors bribe, his ashes should be exhumed from that memorial on expensive public land and put in jail. PM my a**.

arjunm · Post by **arjunm** » 10 Jan 2011 06:09

Dhiman wrote:The public is so used to hearing garbage from ministers that these idots (Sibal being a prime example) feel absolutely no hesitation in giving out statements for misleading and deluding the public. Somebody should ask Sibal if he would be willing to be held accountable for his statements, i.e if he is willing to be prosecuted to the full extent of the law for deliberately trying to mislead the public and cover-up the scam.

With such brazen statements, its obvious that these fools have absolutely no fear of being held accountable and no intention of serving the public interest. *Deleted*. A corrupt cabal that is part of a corrupt political establishment that is ruling this country and attempting to subvert various populations of this country by various means in order to enrich themselves.

Your concern is exactly resonated in Swamy's reaction to Kapil Sibal's nonsense verbage. It is a calculated attempt to influence the gist of the investigation and he is asking the honourable Court to take notice of his ridiculous and irresponsible statements of the Minister.

Terming as "highly objectionable" Telecom Minister Kapil Sibal's remarks on CAG's projection of the loss in 2G spectrum allocation, Janata Party president Subramanian Swamy today alleged that it was an attempt to influence investigations into the scam.

Swamy said the court should take suo motu notice of the contempt of court committed by the Minister, who made statements about the case when the Supreme Court had passed an order directing the CBI to report to it.

The statement made by Sibal seeking to rubbish the CAG report on 2G scam was not only "highly objectionable" but also is a contempt of the Supreme Court, he said.

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/sibal ... y/735066/0 R.
Singh

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 10 Jan 2011 11:37

Kapil Sibal deserves the "joker of the year" award.Has the Congress party become so separated and distant from the people of India that stalwarts and supposedly the "intelligentsia" of the party can make such preposterous statements and xpect the people of India to believe their donkey-dung? That this joker too is in charge of the scam engulfed Telecom ministry is another outrage,as if this is his true thinking then it will be nothing less than cover-up over cover-up ad infinitum for the Indian people,who will have to take to the streets as others do in foreign countries to bring about change both in policies and regime.Look at the way the Greeks are taking to the streets and taking over road toll-booths in protest.We are being taken for such massive rides by our leaders because we do nothing about such bottomless corruption.

Manish Jain · Post by **Manish Jain** » 10 Jan 2011 17:24

No Evidence Against Nira Radia

Aal eez well. No case against Radia and soon there'll be no case against Raja as well. Lets us all forget this "notional" loss and move on.

rkirankr · Post by **rkirankr** » 10 Jan 2011 17:34

^^ So no evidence against Nira radia, raja in 2G
No against you-know-who in bofors
MMS is squeaky clean.
CAG in a moment of wild imagination came up with all these figures.

Let us get back to more important things which mahatma diggy raja is shouting from rooftops.Saffron terror.

Some body said price raise, er what is that? It is all notional. If aam janta cannot eat onions let them eat garlic or brinjal or er whatever. Oh by the way, to strengthen the hands of secularists and in the interest of indo pak peace in sub ... no south asia, let us give them cottons for free and import onions by paying money. We will help pakis to help themselves. Peace everywhere. Let us raise a onion soup toast.
All eej well.

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 10 Jan 2011 20:31

year of scandal

Corruption in India is synonymous with the molecules of national character. Cheating, deceiving, thieving and plundering are characteristics of over 70% Indians. Theories abound and the pundits say this is a result of feudal inheritance, The British had taught corrupt practices and absence of social and moral codes never filtered down to India psyche. These remained as story books, part of religious monotony and the thuggy mentality in modern India was not less cruel than the historical thuggy movement. Some pundits now admit that scandals in public and political lives are as common as dust particles in the air. We have to live with that.

Not specific to 2G but mentions also along with others.
good article on corruption by MK Dhar.

Venkarl · Post by **Venkarl** » 10 Jan 2011 20:35

saket wrote:I dont know whether this belongs here but this is the latest Big Fight http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/the-bi ... /186360?hp

Thanks for the video link Saket.....Mr.Swamy looks like he is celebrating the "BigFight".

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 10 Jan 2011 23:20

400% halaal-CAG

Countering Communications Minister Kapil Sibal's criticism of its 2G report as 'utterly erroneous', India's official auditor Monday said that it stood by the report which pegged the notional loss to the national exchequer at Rs.1.76 lakh crore ($40 billion) in the allocation of airwaves for second-generation (2G) phone services in 2008.

The report of the CAG was critical of the government's policy on spectrum allocation for second generation (2G) telecom services and said that it caused a loss of between $12.8 billion and $40 billion to the exchequer.

Meanwhile, the Supreme Court Monday issued notice to the Department of Telecom and 11 firms on a plea seeking cancellation of airwaves and licenses issued for 2G spectrum during former communications minister A. Raja's tenure.

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 10 Jan 2011 23:56

Supreme Court tightens screw on telcos

The Supreme Court on Monday issued notices to the Department of Telecommunication (DoT), Telecom Regulatory Authority of India (TRAI), and 11 telecom companies on a public interest litigation seeking cancellation of licences allocated during the tenure of A Raja.

The companies include Etisalat, Unitech Wireless Group, Loop Telecom, Videocon Telecommunications, S-Tel, Alliance Infratech, Idea Cellular, Tata Teleservices, Sistema Shyam, Aircel, and Vodafone Essar.

The Supreme Court has asked these firms why their licences should not be revoked, adding to regulatory uncertainty in the sector.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 11 Jan 2011 00:36

Manish Jain wrote:No Evidence Against Nira Radia

Aal eez well. No case against Radia and soon there'll be no case against Raja as well. Lets us all forget this "notional" loss and move on.

This is a lifafa article and is a paid news story.
The main way the GOI will catch the crooks is the Income Tax evasion and all of them will fall in the net. The ED and other branches will get all the info. This is a bogus info

Christopher Sidor · Post by **Christopher Sidor** » 11 Jan 2011 16:10

The 2G scandal was always about presumptive loss to the treasury.

Congress would always say that procedures were not flouted, even when one of the UPA-II government officials himself said "Selling of spectrum in 2009 at the price of 2001 is madness." But we have to understand this honey pot has too many non-congress fingers in it. There is a massive vested interest in the status-quo.

Like I said before "Strom in a tea-cup."

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 12 Jan 2011 01:46

Anotehr viewpoint or marker of the scam being a inner INC fight for power.

The turning worm

The post 2G scam revealations are a fight between MMS and PM

....
They say that Pranab Mukherjee is once again in the prime minister's race. He has been promised the top job if he can get the Congress leadership out of the 2G net. Given this development, it is perfectly understandable that Pranab Mukherjee should pounce on the PM for making the PAC offer.

For, by making the offer, the PM has, in a manner, dissociated himself from the rest of the Congress party. He has made it apparent that he has nothing to hide. He has also implied, without perhaps meaning to, that he is not behind the obduracy of the Congress leadership not to have a JPC inquiry.

The problem for the Congress from the PM's offer is that it has exposed a chink, which the opposition feels duty-bound to exploit. The opposition validly says that if the PM is agreeable to depose before the PAC, what stops him from appearing before the JPC?

The Congress's loathing of the JPC derives from its fear that it will bleed the party all the way to the next general elections, with the frenzied media on its tail. The Congress leadership also fears the 2G scam becoming a second Bofors. The original plan appeared to be for Manmohan Singh to make way for Rahul Gandhi sometime in twenty-twelve with the dynast getting a clear two years to show off his leadership skills.

The 2G scam has put paid to all those plans. Congress insiders say that Manmohan Singh is eager to clear his name. The PM has already made known that he was opposed to inducting the disgraced A.Raja into the cabinet, much less give him the telecom portfolio.

With Manmohan Singh acting up, or acting out of his usual form of uncomplaining servility/ docility, Pranab Mukherjee is setting about containing him. And if Pranab Mukherjee can save the Congress leadership from the 2G scam, the long-denied prime- ministership is his. Even as he has proved supremely loyal to the Nehru-Gandhis, Manmohan Singh finally has discovered that there are limits to his dynastic affinity. Better late than never.

To clear the 2gs its MMS has to be sacrificed and he is not willing to be a bakra nor a ulloo.

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 12 Jan 2011 02:15

Open Hit On Credibility Of Barkha Dutt?

Barkha’s show ‘The Buck Shop Here’ on NDTV 24×7 loses major chunk of its viewership according to TAM data.

Fall out of radia tapes.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 12 Jan 2011 03:17

ramana wrote: To clear the 2gs its MMS has to be sacrificed and he is not willing to be a bakra nor a ulloo.

I hope that is true Ramana garu. I truly wish he does a Vibheeshana!

Dhiman · Post by **Dhiman** » 13 Jan 2011 10:36

CAG, PAC slapping Sibal around today. Brightened my day

. Now the only thing I can wish is that Tihar hotel will join the game too soon.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 13 Jan 2011 10:59

^^^ The CAG did make a bit of a faux pas by doing that 1.76 lac crore maths - extrapolating 2010 industry valuations of 3G into 2007-08 industry numbers on 2G is a bit disengenuous..And unfortunately, that number is giving a handle to the likes of Kapil Sibal (and that uneducated idiot Manish Tiwari) to trash the principle (or wrong doing itself)...

IMO the best estimate would simply be the market valuations reached by the players..Two companies, Swan and Unitech got licenses for 26 and 22 circles respectively - both offloaded equity bang after the allotment, valuing their licenses @ 7.7k and 9k repsetively...This can be taken as a price for just the license as these companies were virtually shell companies - no infratstruture, no employees, nothing, just a shell with a bunch of telecom licenses...Taking an average per-circle valuation of the two, one would arive at a 40k odd crores number for the 122 licenses that were given out...The govt got about 1600 crore - so about 40k crore is probably a more realistic estimate of the loss..

40k crores = 10 billion dollars...Its a BIG number in itself...Kapil Sibal is a lawyer, someone needs to send him to a Finance 101 class!

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 13 Jan 2011 11:44

somnath wrote:^^^ The CAG did make a bit of a faux pas by doing that 1.76 lac crore maths - extrapolating 2010 industry valuations of 3G into 2007-08 industry numbers on 2G is a bit disengenuous..And unfortunately, that number is giving a handle to the likes of Kapil Sibal (and that uneducated idiot Manish Tiwari) to trash the principle (or wrong doing itself)...

IMO the best estimate would simply be the market valuations reached by the players..Two companies, Swan and Unitech got licenses for 26 and 22 circles respectively - both offloaded equity bang after the allotment, valuing their licenses @ 7.7k and 9k repsetively...This can be taken as a price for just the license as these companies were virtually shell companies - no infratstruture, no employees, nothing, just a shell with a bunch of telecom licenses...Taking an average per-circle valuation of the two, one would arive at a 40k odd crores number for the 122 licenses that were given out...The govt got about 1600 crore - so about 40k crore is probably a more realistic estimate of the loss..

40k crores = 10 billion dollars...Its a BIG number in itself...Kapil Sibal is a lawyer, someone needs to send him to a Finance 101 class!

er, if you bother to read the CAG report, you will realize that CAG has termed the presumptive loss anywhere between 55k crores to 175k crores. The CAG used four methods to appear at the losses and one of them is the similar to what you mentioned.

175k crores appear everywhere because everyone wants to quote the largest possible loss, not that 55k crores by itself isn't exactly small.

Dhiman · Post by **Dhiman** » 13 Jan 2011 11:49

somnath wrote:^^^ The CAG did make a bit of a faux pas by doing that 1.76 lac crore maths - extrapolating 2010 industry valuations of 3G into 2007-08 industry numbers on 2G is a bit disengenuous..And unfortunately, that number is giving a handle to the likes of Kapil Sibal (and that uneducated idiot Manish Tiwari) to trash the principle (or wrong doing itself)...

Do me a favor, click on this link, and at the very least read the executive section of the CAG report for yourself. Two things that will immediately become clear are: 1) CAG reports present three, but not one estimate of the financial loss that GoI incurred and 2) CAG does not claim that the figures are exactly correct only that the magnitude of the loss in each of the three estimates is correct.

IMO the best estimate would simply be the market valuations reached by the players..Two companies, Swan and Unitech got licenses for 26 and 22 circles respectively - both offloaded equity bang after the allotment, valuing their licenses @ 7.7k and 9k repsetively...This can be taken as a price for just the license as these companies were virtually shell companies - no infratstruture, no employees, nothing, just a shell with a bunch of telecom licenses...Taking an average per-circle valuation of the two, one would arive at a 40k odd crores number for the 122 licenses that were given out...The govt got about 1600 crore - so about 40k crore is probably a more realistic estimate of the loss..

This has been discussed as estimate #1 in CAG report with the amount of loss being around 60K crores, not 40k crores.

40k crores = 10 billion dollars...Its a BIG number in itself...Kapil Sibal is a lawyer, someone needs to send him to a Finance 101 class!

Not finance 101 class, he should be sent to jail for attempting to delude the public and to cover up a scam. There is no difference between a voilent terrorist and a financial terrorists who deludes the public in the image of a gandian neta. There are laws in India as per which a person suspected of terrorism will be immidiately put in jail until he/she can prove his innocence. There should be similar laws for netas also.

Corruption is an extemely widespread problem and the only way to deal with this is to enact a law that will immediately send a neta to jail just on suspicion of corruption unless the neta himself proves his innocence.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 13 Jan 2011 11:53

^^^ I should have mentioned that CAG itself has made a calculation similar to mine - I have gone through the report...They have 3 different estimates given..

The point was different - using an obviously erroneous methodology to arrive at the most dramatic number, the one that gets used has just opened it up for sniping by the likes of Sibal..Thats all..

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 13 Jan 2011 11:59

Dhiman wrote: Not finance 101 class, he should be sent to jail for attempting to delude the public and to cover up a scam.

Unfortunatey, not just Sibal, it will be darn difficult to get anyone to go to jail in this case...Unless the CBI finds out money trails between the beneficiary companies and Raja et al, which in turn would be well nigh impossible...

Its not easy to prove that a "loss of revenue" to govt because of a policy decision is due to criminal intent..As matter of routine, the govt takes dozens of decisions in the Finance Bill and in other places...Is the reduction in excise duty on "ultra light" cars over heavier cars an attempt to favour Tata Motors (NAno) over others or is it an attempt to promote fuel-efficient cars? Licenses given away for free is to favour certain telcos or to bring down telecom charges? It can get really tricky..

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 13 Jan 2011 12:00

Again, if you read the CAG report, it clearly gives the reason why 3G valuation was used. From the report:

...
TRAI in its report of 2010 has observed that 2G services today are actually offering 2.75G
services. Therefore “while comparing spectral efficiency and other factors, it is fair to
compare existing 2.75G systems with 3G systems”.
The Authority recommended 3G prices to be adopted as the current price of spectrum in the 1800 Mhz band and intends to
separately study the subject for apprising the Government of its findings. They have
recommended even higher pricing at 1.5 times of 1800 MhZ band for the 2G spectrum in 800
and 900 Mhz band.

Besides, comparing the 2G and 3G on their varieties of features and the type of services they
could support, scarcity factor and demand and supply position also play important role in
determining market price. It was amply demonstrated between September 2007 and
December 2008 that its demand in view of its scarcity was at its peak and thus would have
fetched the market determined price at a much higher level than that of 2001 entry fee. If
price is calculated at 3G rates which can also be taken as one of the indicators for assessing
the value of 2G spectrum allocated to UAS licensees in 2008, the value works out to
` 1, 11,512 crore against ` 9014 crore realised by DoT. Similarly, for spectrum allotted under
the dual technology as referred in Paragraph 4.8, the value would have been ` 40526 crore,
as against ` 3,372 crore collected. The total difference in value worked out to ` 1,39,652
crore as in the table given below.
....
...

Dhiman · Post by **Dhiman** » 13 Jan 2011 12:19

somnath wrote: Its not easy to prove that a "loss of revenue" to govt because of a policy decision is due to criminal intent..As matter of routine, the govt takes dozens of decisions in the Finance Bill and in other places...Is the reduction in excise duty on "ultra light" cars over heavier cars an attempt to favour Tata Motors (NAno) over others or is it an attempt to promote fuel-efficient cars? Licenses given away for free is to favour certain telcos or to bring down telecom charges? It can get really tricky..

In 2003, the cabinet decided that all telecoms spectrum will be auctioned - this serves as the basis of CAG's largest estimate and its comparison with the 3G auction. Now you have this idot (Sibal) claiming that the government suddenly developed some sort of a social good maximization consciousness by which it had to give away spectrum to real-estate companies for cheap so that they could turn around and sell the spectrum to other companies thereby making immediate profits.

All this near free distribution of telecom spectrum to real-estate companies for maximization of social good when the fact on the ground is that this government explicitly refused to distribute food grains that were literally rotting due to lack of storage to the poor for free as a conscious policy decision even after being told by supreme court to do so. Where was Sibal's social good maximization then?

In fact, if I recall correctly, it was Sibal himself you appeared in media to boldly state that time that the government cannot give out grains that would otherwise rot to the poor for free. And by poor, I don't mean people who think between ultra-light, heavier, or fuel-efficient cars as you state. By poor I mean those who regularly forgo eating from day-to-day for the sole reason that they have nothing to eat.

The corrupt would like you to think that it is very difficult to follow money trails. Its not specially in this day-and-age of computerization and with explicit checks on internal money flows. The only thing that is missing is a will to do so.

The massive financial loss by itself is extremely concerning, but that is not the biggest problem that this scam has exposed. The biggest problem is that this scam has shown (unlike no other scam in history of Independent India) that a small cabal spreading across government ministers, press, companies, foreign companies, foreign lobbyists, and banking has managed to subvert the democratic processes of the country. This is like an outright attack on the country

This is the exact reason why Sibal is claiming that there is zero loss. This scam means that the Indian democracy is a pure myth being put forward by a small cabal that are deluding the country with democracy and morality talk while at the very same time they are massively gaming the system to enrich themselves by subverting the will of the people.

This subversion is a much much much much more serious problem than any financial loss and is the reason why the guilty have to be pursued like rabid dogs and put in jail. Arrest them first and then decide whether they are innocent or not. Anything short of that and the implications are deep and WILL be reflected in the future of India as a country and years ahead.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 13 Jan 2011 12:59

putnanja wrote:Again, if you read the CAG report, it clearly gives the reason why 3G valuation was used. From the report:

Its a bit of a stretch though, 2.75 G is not the same as 3G - anyone who's used a 3G internet service of say BSNL, which was available for more than a year beore the auction - at least I have found that to be much faster than even a "higher rated" airtel 2G wireless internet..Plus the important variable is the market - the market simply had between ~ 400 million more customers when the 3G auctions happened, compared to when the 2G gratis took place - any valuation would get skewed just by that...And one final test - in 2007-08, 1.76 lac crores would have been ~4% of India's GDP, its a HUGE number to extract out of the capital markets on one industry.....

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 13 Jan 2011 13:26

^^^Dhiman,

While I share your disgust (of corruption), I dont share your mistrust of the "system" per se...Most people (outside politicians) - journalists, bureaucrats, judges, bankers

live honest lives, and do the best they can for their families and the country...And the "system" generally works, in some ways at least...After al, its the same fourth estate of the "sham democracy" that exposed the possible corruption (media has been at it since 2007), it is the same bureaucracy (the CAG) that gave an "offical perspective" of the opportunity loss, and it is the same judiciary that forced action...

Why is Kapil Sibal making an ass of himself? Most likely because there is something serious to hide..and these politicians are not really bothered about criminal conviction (they know its darn difficult to do that - look at Bofors, more so in this case)..They are afraid of the fact that if the issue remains in public domain with regular leaks, innuendos etc, they will start gettgin seriously hurt - again look at bofors

Dhiman · Post by **Dhiman** » 13 Jan 2011 13:39

somnath wrote: While I share your disgust (of corruption), I dont share your mistrust of the "system" per se...Most people (outside politicians) - journalists, bureaucrats, judges, bankers live honest lives, and do the best they can for their families and the country...

I wasn't talking about "most people". What I have repeatedly and explicitly talked about is a small cabal that has managed to subvert the will of the people in a democratic system in order to enrich themselves. Would you rather have this cabal go unpunished and live other day to subvert the will of the people on a more massive scale one day?

There are levels of corruption in any society. So far India has had a balanced existence with corruption even though the country is recognized as one of the most corrupt in the world. This scam breaks that barrier and sets an extremely bad precedent for the future.

Why is Kapil Sibal making an ass of himself? Most likely because there is something serious to hide..and these politicians are not really bothered about criminal conviction (they know its darn difficult to do that - look at Bofors, more so in this case)..They are afraid of the fact that if the issue remains in public domain with regular leaks, innuendos etc, they will start gettgin seriously hurt - again look at bofors

Political corruption is a more serious problem in India than terrorism and hence we need more serious laws for dealing with political corruption than existing laws for dealing with terrorism. This is an enemy within in collusion with foreign players outside at the very top of the government.

Venkarl · Post by **Venkarl** » 13 Jan 2011 21:56

CBI should completely be Independent which receives orders from Supreme Court only and should be accountable and answerable to SC only. We can see lots of corrupt brethren doing takita tadimi in both Sabhas. I have not looked into details though..JMT.

rajeshkathiriya · Post by **rajeshkathiriya** » 14 Jan 2011 09:26

http://news.in.msn.com/national/article ... id=4798581

Govt may agree to JPC probe

Pranay · Post by **Pranay** » 15 Jan 2011 07:06

http://www.openthemagazine.com/article/ ... apil-sibal

Clearly, Kapil Sibal was being economical with the truth and his statements only illustrate the problem with the Congress’ stand on the whole issue. Mistakes in the past by the NDA do not justify what was done now. If the matter is left to the Public Accounts Committee and the debate is restricted to the CAG report, this is what we will be left with—large-scale losses of revenue with no public benefit that will be explained away as a result of the ‘economic perspectives’ companies have.