MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

[chetak]

An interesting story. Our "strategic" partner in this part of the World arm twists Israel on supply of a Modern Fire Control Radar to India. Please read story below.

U.S. Pressures Israel to Block IAI AESA Radar Sale to India
2011-01-11 A report in Flight Global by Arie Egozi reveals that the United States has arm twisted Israel to withdraw the offering and block a potential sale of IAI's EL/M-2052 AESA radars to India. It is said that this action would have immediate impact. The U.S. Government is said to have been pressuring Israel for the ban for over two years.

"Washington's position is driven by an assumption that exporting IAI's advanced radar would undermine the sale of US-made systems on the international stage, sources say."

"Saab had considered offering the EL/M-2052 as part of its Gripen NG proposal for the Indian air force's medium multi-role combat aircraft requirement, but instead opted for Selex Galileo's ES05 Raven AESA."

-- FlightGlobal

The Elta 2052 is an advanced airborne Active electronically scanned array fire control radar for fighter aircraft. It is suitable for F-15, MiG-29, Mirage 2000, LCA Tejas. The EL/M-2052 is an advanced Airborne Fire Control Radar (FCR) designed for air superiority and advanced strike missions.

The FCR is based on fully solid-state active phased array technology. This new technology enables the radar to achieve a longer detection range, high mission reliability and a multi-target tracking capability of up to 64 targets. The EL/M-2052 radar incorporates Elta's decades of field-proven experience with real operational feedback from Israeli Air Force combat pilots.

The radar introduces new dimensions to the Air-to-Air, Air-to-Ground and Air-to-Sea operation modes of the aircraft. In the Air-to-air mode, the radar enables a very long-range multi targets detection and enables several simultaneous weapon deliveries in combat engagements.

In Air-to-ground missions, the radar provides very high resolution mapping (SAR), surface moving target detection and tracking over RBM, DBS and SAR maps in addition to A/G ranging. In Air-to-Sea missions the radar provides long-range target detection and tracking, including target classification capabilities (RS, ISAR).

--

[SaiK]

ati uttam. don't forget it could be very political since there is a high chance that this future $3billion radar business was never RFI-ed to the khans, and only EADS and Elta were supposed to have been asked to submit. Elta perhaps won it for MMR hybrdization. Also note, a high possibility that an enhanced elta-lrde radar could be replacing russkie planes as well. So, you would never know which spy agent actually pulled the ragged dhoti.

Anyways, we are not interested in Elta-2052 but only in Elta services and components.

[Wickberg]

Thales was only meant for the Demo because it flew the same year and SAAB wanted an AESA radar fast to put in to demonstrate the capabilities to potential buyers.

How is putting a completely different radar from the final product supposed to demonstrate anything?

you still have´nt provided a source to prove that point.

Sure I did

http://www.military.com/features/0,15240,186678,00.html

Meanwhile, a spat between France and Sweden is developing. In 2007, Saab struck a deal with Thales to provide an AESA antenna for the Gripen Demo program, to be mated with the signal processor from the JAS 39C's Saab PS-05 MSA radar. The Thales AESA replaced the passive-scan antenna of Rafale's RBE2.

But three things happened: Thales and Dassault were given the go-ahead to develop and produce the AESA for Rafale; Dassault has taken a large shareholding in Thales; and the Gripen NG has emerged—in India and Brazil—as a competitor to Rafale. Thales will honor the Gripen Demo contract but its AESA will not be available for a production NG.

Yes, Elta was one of the options for the Gripen NG to India, if India would have preferred that option.

I have zero indication it was ever offered to India.

What advantages it would have for India? Are you kidding me? What radar is the LCA suppose to have?

Back when this discussion was taking place? There wasn't one selected.

Which country have India in recent time have several armsdeals with?

Russia

However, if it did indeed have so many advantages for India, why wasn't it ever offered to India?

For any other country the Gripen NG have been pitched the Selex/SAAB radar have been the obvious choice.

For ALL countries Selex has been the obvious choice because it is the ONLY choice offered with the NG

Because Saab evaluated several units (except strangely the one unit actually flying on the plane) and determined Selex to be the best choice.

I have an article saying that Thales REFUSED to offer their radar for NG production and I have a quote from Saab saying they evaluated several radars (in other words Raven was NOT the pre-ordained winner).

You have nothing that can overcome those plain statements.

I gave you a link to an official SAAB pressrealese that clearly states that Thales was
only for the Demo. I have explained they wanted an AESA radar (any AESA radar) as quick
as possible to demonstrate that kind of technology, until the Selex/SAAB radar came out.
You have provided a link to a journalists opinion. And where in the text http://www.military.com/features/0,15240,186678,00.html does it says that SAAB
ever requested the Thales in the NG? It only says Demo. Which proves my point even more.
You have nothing substantial at all except your own imagination. So what should we believe?
Your imagination or an official pressrelease and a journalist? Please show us a link where it
says that the Thales was suppose to go into the NG but the french pulled the rug out from SAAB.

Please tell me? Back in 2007/08 HAL did´nt have a clue on which radar to fit the LCA after
25 years of development? Come on, you know better then that.
And please correct me if I´m wrong. I´ve got a feeling that India has leaned more and
more towards Israel in terms of weapon sales the last 10 years. Do you agree? What major
arms deals did India have with Israel pre-2000?

There´s a lot talk on this site about the hazard of putting "all eggs in one basket",
SAAB also thinks that is a bad thing. Gripen is and has always been a "customer choice"
fighter. If a customer prefers radar or weapons from another country SAAB will offcourse
try to satisfy that. That is why SAAB talked to Elta (remember, just talked) in case
a customer would have preferred their radar instead of Selex/SAAB. And I don´t think they
were thinking of Brazil, Norway or Denmark. If SAAB got an indication that a customer would
like a Russian radar in a potential Gripen NG I´m pretty sure SAAB would contact what ever
company in Russia that can supply that.

[shukla]

Fancy flying the Gripen guys?

Answer questions and fly an advanced fighter jet
Sify News

A Swedish defence firm has brought to Indian combat aircraft lovers an opportunity to fly one of the world's most advanced multi-role fighter jet after answering some questions posted on the company's website. The winner will be flown in SAAB's most advanced multi-role fighter aircraft, the Gripen, during the Feb 9-13 Aero India air show in Bangalore.

All a contestant needs to do is simply answer a set of questions or fly any flight simulation of the Gripen at www.gripentopgun.com, a company statement said. 'The Gripen Top Guns contest has an amateur and professional level challenge to test the knowledge of aircraft buffs while providing an opportunity to enter their best flying effort on the Gripen and take a shot at flying the real Gripen,' the statement said.

'The Gripen game entries will be judged by top Swedish and Indian pilots to select a few who will get a shot at flying the real Gripen aircraft simulator. Out of the five chosen simulator pilots, one will get to fly the real thing: the JAS 39 Gripen.' To top it, for those not really interested in the technical end but love the look and feel of the aircraft, the Gripen Top Guns contest opens a Model Hunt in which 12 participants will make it to the first ever Gripen India calendar. Three Gripen aircraft will be arriving in Bangalore for the air show.

'We believe that more the people of India get to see and understand the complex technologies that make flying and guarding the skies both simple and effective, the more will be the appreciation of the history of Swedish aircraft technology and Swedish technologies,' Edvard de la Motte, campaign director, Gripen International India said in the statement.

Apart from the grand prize of a flight in the Gripen, the contest has a host of prizes for those who get it right and win in the draw of lots, including Gripen fighter pilot flying suits, Gripen aviator glasses, Gripen exclusive calendars signed by Swedish test pilots as well as Gripen goodies, including Gripen key tags, badges, stickers and pens.

[GeorgeWelch]

And where in the text http://www.military.com/features/0,15240,186678,00.html does it says that SAAB
ever requested the Thales in the NG?

SAAB never got the chance to ask for it in the NG because Thales informed them ahead of time it wasn't happening.

You have nothing substantial at all except your own imagination.

http://www.military.com/features/0,15240,186678,00.html

Thales will honor the Gripen Demo contract but its AESA will not be available for a production NG.

Not my imagination.

So what should we believe?
Your imagination or an official pressrelease and a journalist?

There's nothing in the press release that disagrees with my position. All it says is that Thales signed a contract for the Demo.

If you notice, it did NOT say that the Thales would never be used for the production NG.

In fact your own article proves you're mistaken

http://forum.pakistanidefence.com/lofiv ... 75091.html

Our collaboration is for the Gripen demo. We will have to see what happens in the future.

In other words, the future of the Gripen radar was NOT set.

What you have FAILED to provide is any PROOF that the Raven was pre-ordained choice before Thales was ever contracted for the demo.

If it was, the article would have said "Thales was contracted to proved a stop-gap radar for the Demo until the Raven is ready." As you might have noticed, it didn't actually say that.

All you can show is exactly what I'm saying: Thales was contracted for the Demo but then Saab was keeping its options open after that point.

You want proof that the Raven was never the pre-ordained choice? Read Saab's own words again:

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2009/07/fl ... -much.html

Saab spokesperson Anne Lewis-Olsson has announced, "Israel was one of several options for the Gripen NG radar over a year ago but we decided to continue with other alternatives."

Your position is that Saab only toyed with Elta to appease India, yet they said they evaluated SEVERAL options. 'Several' means 'more than two', as in 'more than just Raven and Elta'.

How do you respond to Saab's statement that they were evaluating other radars besides the Elta but NOT the Thales? Why would they evaluate everything EXCEPT Thales?

The only explanation is just what the article said: Thales told Saab it wasn't available to them.

Please show us a link where it
says that the Thales was suppose to go into the NG but the french pulled the rug out from SAAB.

Please pay attention to what I'm saying. I am NOT saying the Thales was the pre-ordained choice. Saab was clearly keeping their options open.

HOWEVER, Thales would have clearly been a VERY strong contender in any evaluation if for no other reason than the fact that it was already working.

Does the fact that such a strong contender was not even considered seem even slightly odd to you?

Back in 2007/08 HAL did´nt have a clue on which radar to fit the LCA after
25 years of development? Come on, you know better then that.

No that is exactly the case. The indigenously developed MMR was a failure and they were casting about for both temporary and permanent solutions.

And please correct me if I´m wrong. I´ve got a feeling that India has leaned more and
more towards Israel in terms of weapon sales the last 10 years. Do you agree?

Did India not have a lot of deals with France too?

Let's see, there's the Mirage-2000, there's the SRSAM Maitri, there's the Kaveri co-development, etc. India had and has very strong ties with France too, so again, what huge advantage would an Israeli radar have over a French radar?

[Wickberg]

And where in the text http://www.military.com/features/0,15240,186678,00.html does it says that SAAB
ever requested the Thales in the NG?

SAAB never got the chance to ask for it in the NG because Thales informed them ahead of time it wasn't happening.

You have nothing substantial at all except your own imagination.

http://www.military.com/features/0,15240,186678,00.html

Thales will honor the Gripen Demo contract but its AESA will not be available for a production NG.

Not my imagination.

So what should we believe?
Your imagination or an official pressrelease and a journalist?

There's nothing in the press release that disagrees with my position. All it says is that Thales signed a contract for the Demo.

If you notice, it did NOT say that the Thales would never be used for the production NG.

In fact your own article proves you're mistaken

http://forum.pakistanidefence.com/lofiv ... 75091.html

Our collaboration is for the Gripen demo. We will have to see what happens in the future.

In other words, the future of the Gripen radar was NOT set.

What you have FAILED to provide is any PROOF that the Raven was pre-ordained choice before Thales was ever contracted for the demo.

If it was, the article would have said "Thales was contracted to proved a stop-gap radar for the Demo until the Raven is ready." As you might have noticed, it didn't actually say that.

All you can show is exactly what I'm saying: Thales was contracted for the Demo but then Saab was keeping its options open after that point.

You want proof that the Raven was never the pre-ordained choice? Read Saab's own words again:

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2009/07/fl ... -much.html

Saab spokesperson Anne Lewis-Olsson has announced, "Israel was one of several options for the Gripen NG radar over a year ago but we decided to continue with other alternatives."

Your position is that Saab only toyed with Elta to appease India, yet they said they evaluated SEVERAL options. 'Several' means 'more than two', as in 'more than just Raven and Elta'.

How do you respond to Saab's statement that they were evaluating other radars besides the Elta but NOT the Thales? Why would they evaluate everything EXCEPT Thales?

The only explanation is just what the article said: Thales told Saab it wasn't available to them.

Please show us a link where it
says that the Thales was suppose to go into the NG but the french pulled the rug out from SAAB.

Please pay attention to what I'm saying. I am NOT saying the Thales was the pre-ordained choice. Saab was clearly keeping their options open.

HOWEVER, Thales would have clearly been a VERY strong contender in any evaluation if for no other reason than the fact that it was already working.

Does the fact that such a strong contender was not even considered seem even slightly odd to you?

Back in 2007/08 HAL did´nt have a clue on which radar to fit the LCA after
25 years of development? Come on, you know better then that.

No that is exactly the case. The indigenously developed MMR was a failure and they were casting about for both temporary and permanent solutions.

And please correct me if I´m wrong. I´ve got a feeling that India has leaned more and
more towards Israel in terms of weapon sales the last 10 years. Do you agree?

Did India not have a lot of deals with France too?

Let's see, there's the Mirage-2000, there's the SRSAM Maitri, there's the Kaveri co-development, etc. India had and has very strong ties with France too, so again, what huge advantage would an Israeli radar have over a French radar?

Sir, you claimed that France pulled the rug from under Gripen and that you have read
that the Thales was considered for the Gripen NG. (Just go back one page). You linked
to a journalist who writes "Thales will honor the Gripen Demo contract but its AESA will
not be available for a production NG.". Still, it never once says that SAAB has requested
that or even have thought of that. That, is in your imagination.

Yes, Israel was one option if any customer wanted it (ie India). Other alternatives are
Selex/SAAB and NORA. So "several" was Elta, Selex/SAAB and NORA. Heck who knows, perhaps
even Raython (but off course the americans would´nt allow that considering they are in the
same tender and barred Israel to install a radar in Gripen and there´s even talk about they
will not allow it in LCA.)

All I´m saying is that SAAB never considered Thales for the Gripen NG. You claim otherwise
but have´nt been able to produce a single evidence for that.
I´m saying that SAAB contacted Elta when they knew India were going for that radar in their
LCA. In 2008 the Israeli radar landed in India so the deal must have been made before that.
Do you still claim that HAL had no idea which radar to use back in 2007/08?

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... n-bid.html

Check the link above. All I said was true.

"The USA forced Israel Aerospace Industries to withdraw a proposal to supply an advanced radar to Saab as part of the
Swedish company's effort to win a fighter contest in India potentially worth $12 billion.

Sources in Israel said on 5 July that Saab had wanted to offer a radar from IAI subsidiary Elta Systems as part of
its Gripen NG proposal for the Indian air force's medium multirole combat aircraft (MMRCA) deal, as New Delhi is
already familiar with systems supplied by the Israeli firm. The contract is for at least 126 aircraft.

While the USA has claimed that the Gripen has only a "very limited" chance of being selected, the possible inclusion
of an Israeli radar would have allowed New Delhi to push down the price of rival offers to supply either the Boeing F/A-18E/F
Super Hornet or the Lockheed Martin F-16, the sources add.

The Israeli defence ministry and IAI have refused to comment on the report, but Saab-led Gripen International confirms that
"Israel was one of several options" assessed for the radar element of its bid for the Indian requirement. The Swedish manufacturer
has already confirmed its intention to allow India to conduct a flight evaluation of its Gripen Demo airframe equipped with a
Vixen 1000E/ES05 Raven active electronically scanned array radar from Finmeccanica company Selex Galileo, and has approvals in place
to export the system to India, and other potential Gripen buyers Brazil and Switzerland.

Washington's pressure is not the first example of it forcing the Israeli defence industry to back away from major contracts.
IAI several years ago had to cancel a deal to supply China with Phalcon-type airborne early warning systems."

Game, set and match when it comes to Elta was only meant for Gripen IN?

Yes, India have had several deals with France. Perhaps it is them they will have to turn to regarding the radar in the LCA.

[GeorgeWelch]

Sir, you claimed . . . that you have read
that the Thales was considered for the Gripen NG. (Just go back one page).

No I didn't.

Is that your problem? I said ELTA was considered for the NG.

You had previously said that Elta was only considered for the Gripen-IN and I pointed out that that was not true, it was also considered for the NG.

Still, it never once says that SAAB has requested
that or even have thought of that. That, is in your imagination.

AGAIN, I never said SAAB requested Thales for the NG.

For the very simple reason they were told it wasn't available to them.

Why ask for what you can't have?

Yes, Israel was one option if any customer wanted it (ie India). Other alternatives are
Selex/SAAB and NORA. So "several" was Elta, Selex/SAAB and NORA. Heck who knows, perhaps
even Raython (but off course the americans would´nt allow that considering they are in the
same tender and barred Israel to install a radar in Gripen and there´s even talk about they
will not allow it in LCA.)

All I´m saying is that SAAB never considered Thales for the Gripen NG.

So Saab considered Elta, Selex, NORA and perhaps Raytheon, but they didn't consider Thales.

Okay.

Now WHY didn't they consider Thales when when they did consider every other radar under the sun?

Was it because Raven was always the plan as you had previously claimed?

Apparently not, since you just said they might have evaluated Raytheon.

You claim otherwise

I'm going to keep beating you over the head about this because you keep lying/misunderstanding my position. So please stop spread inaccuracies.

NO, I do not claim Saab considered Thales for the production NG.

I've only explained this to you about 8 times already.

I´m saying that SAAB contacted Elta when they knew India were going for that radar in their
LCA. In 2008 the Israeli radar landed in India so the deal must have been made before that.
Do you still claim that HAL had no idea which radar to use back in 2007/08?

Yes.

They were considering the Elta as a temporary solution. The long-term solution was still not clear.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... n-bid.html

Check the link above. All I said was true.

Are you still trotting out that discredited article? In fact, that is the very article Saab is debunking in the quote I presented earlier.

[Wickberg]

Sir, you claimed . . . that you have read
that the Thales was considered for the Gripen NG. (Just go back one page).

No I didn't.


Is that your problem? I said ELTA was considered for the NG.

You had previously said that Elta was only considered for the Gripen-IN and I pointed out that that was not true, it was also considered for the NG.

Still, it never once says that SAAB has requested
that or even have thought of that. That, is in your imagination.

AGAIN, I never said SAAB requested Thales for the NG.

For the very simple reason they were told it wasn't available to them.

Why ask for what you can't have?

Yes, Israel was one option if any customer wanted it (ie India). Other alternatives are
Selex/SAAB and NORA. So "several" was Elta, Selex/SAAB and NORA. Heck who knows, perhaps
even Raython (but off course the americans would´nt allow that considering they are in the
same tender and barred Israel to install a radar in Gripen and there´s even talk about they
will not allow it in LCA.)

All I´m saying is that SAAB never considered Thales for the Gripen NG.

So Saab considered Elta, Selex, NORA and perhaps Raytheon, but they didn't consider Thales.

Okay.

Now WHY didn't they consider Thales when when they did consider every other radar under the sun?

Was it because Raven was always the plan as you had previously claimed?

Apparently not, since you just said they might have evaluated Raytheon.

You claim otherwise

I'm going to keep beating you over the head about this because you keep lying/misunderstanding my position. So please stop spread inaccuracies.

NO, I do not claim Saab considered Thales for the production NG.

I've only explained this to you about 8 times already.

I´m saying that SAAB contacted Elta when they knew India were going for that radar in their
LCA. In 2008 the Israeli radar landed in India so the deal must have been made before that.
Do you still claim that HAL had no idea which radar to use back in 2007/08?

Yes.

They were considering the Elta as a temporary solution. The long-term solution was still not clear.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... n-bid.html

Check the link above. All I said was true.

Are you still trotting out that discredited article? In fact, that is the very article Saab is debunking in the quote I presented earlier.

GeorgeWelch- I guess you missed when France pulled the rug out from under the Gripen?
Wickberg- For the Gripen NG Thales was never considered.
GeorgeWelch- From what I've read, it appears very much otherwise.

Still claiming you never said Thales was considered? It´s just one page back.

GeorgeWelch-AGAIN, I never said SAAB requested Thales for the NG.
GeorgeWelch-From what I've read, it appears very much otherwise.

Contradictions anyone? How can France pull the rug out from someone when they don´t
even wanted it from the beginning?

Why Thales was´nt considered? Who knows? Their radar is crap? I have no idea. Was the
Thales radar considered for LCA? If not, why not?

GeorgeWelch-NO, I do not claim Saab considered Thales for the production NG.
GeorgeWelch-From what I've read, it appears very much otherwise.

Temporary solution... Like only the first 40 Mk1. Or all of the MK2. aswell? Perhaps
Mk3 and 4?

"Still trotting out that article"?! I have never linked to that one before because now
was the first time I read it. In which quote is SAAB debunking it?

Is it so hard to admit you were wrong. SAAB never intented Thales for the NG and the Elta
was a tailor made solution for the Gripen to India.

BTW, they have evaluated the Raytheon in the work for NORA. So there are three AESA radars
SAAB have built and tested. Raython, Thales and Selex.

[GeorgeWelch]

GeorgeWelch- I guess you missed when France pulled the rug out from under the Gripen?
Wickberg- For the Gripen NG Thales was never considered.
GeorgeWelch- From what I've read, it appears very much otherwise.

Still claiming you never said Thales was considered? It´s just one page back.

Let me rephrase the conversation so you can (finally) understand what was actually going on

GeorgeWelch- I guess you missed when France pulled the rug out from under the Gripen?
Wickberg- For the Gripen NG Thales was never considered therefore they did not have the rug pulled out from under them
GeorgeWelch- From what I've read, it appears very much otherwise, that they did have the rug pulled out from under them.

My statement was NOT specifically addressing whether Thales was ever technically evaluated, instead it was addressing your position as a whole that Thales did nothing to Saab.

Now that we understand each other . . .

Is it so hard to admit you were wrong.

I don't know Wickberg, how hard is it to admit you're wrong?

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-d ... or-is.html

It is also worth noting that Saab chose the Selex radar despite initially selecting a Thales radar on its Gripen NG demonstrator. It is widely believed that the French government blocked Thales from competing with the Dassault Rafale in both India and Brazil.

then this little nugget further down in the comments

From what I'm aware of, Thales completely moved out the Gripen Demo program. The demonstrator aircraft will therefore not fly with the french active array, as originally planned, but with the Selex system.

which Trimble agrees with

Thanks, Guillame. I forgot about that.

So apparently I WAS wrong, Thales wasn't used in the demo after all and did indeed 'pull the rug out' from under Saab

Check and mate

[Singha]

I dont think this lengthy disagreement matters much to Tejas- whether NORA or Raven or Elta, all three should be ok.

Can you guys stop this sidetrack argument ?

[raj-ji]

^^^ Pleas don't be so reactive to a prototype in the air. Its not the end of the world. It is but just a plane.

Couldn't agree with you more. It is wise not to underestimate your foes, but it is also wise to work on facts and not on myths. Does any one know for a fact the capabilities of the Panda's fighters. The Pandas are known for cheap knock offs, not quality. Are they cutting edge on anything, even everyday products? Has anyone seen a cutting edge helicopter or even a car released by a Panda company that was developed locally? Suddenly they are producing state of the art fighters, not everyone is convinced.

This once again illustrates the value of efficiently and confidentially creating an indigenous product. The myth could be more powerful than the actual product.

[Multatuli]

Suppose India had partnered MiG in developing the MiG 1.44 further, wouldn't we now have a very able ( most likely superior to the Euro Fighter ) MRCA ? One that we would have partly owned, and it would have been much cheaper then the Super Hornet, Euro Fighter and the Rafale. It would also have prevented leaking of MiG designers and technology to the Chinese.

[shukla]

ndia’s MMRCA trials help Russian aerial refueling tanker bid
Defenseworld

Flight trials of the six contenders for India’s Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) tender have had an unusual side effect on the race to sell India aerial refueling aircraft. Asked to prove aerial refueling capability, the contenders, F-16, Gripen, Rafale, F/A 18, MiG-35 and Eurofighter have had no option but use the Indian Air Force (IAF)’s existing tanker, the Il-86 mid-air refueler to prove that their aircraft is capable of meeting IAF’s requirements as regarding aerial refuelling.

The Il-86 is a contender in India’s re-floated bid to buy fresh aerial refueling tankers. Fresh bids are due later this month and the besides the Il-86, the other likely contenders are the Airbus A-330 MRTT and the Boeing KC-X. The success of the MMRCA aerial refueling tests means that the IL-76 tanker will have a stronger case due to the fact that its capability has been proven on all the MMRCA bidders, one of which will be eventually selected.

In fact, the MMRCA contenders had to make major modifications to their aerial refueling systems to match the IL-76’s fuel pipe mating and locking systems to prove that the their aircraft can be refueled in mid-air. Informed sources told Defenseworld.net that the Russian bid had “emerged stronger” after the MMRCA aerial refueling tests.

At Aero India 2009, the Il-78 had made a demonstration refueling two aircraft simultaneously. It is quite likely that it may repeat this feat with the LCA Tejus at Aero India 2011.

[SaiK]

Please note where the credit should go.. The contenders made major modifications to match IL-76's locking systems and not the Russkies to prove a point. jee..

[kit]

Suppose India had partnered MiG in developing the MiG 1.44 further, wouldn't we now have a very able ( most likely superior to the Euro Fighter ) MRCA ? One that we would have partly owned, and it would have been much cheaper then the Super Hornet, Euro Fighter and the Rafale. It would also have prevented leaking of MiG designers and technology to the Chinese.

India's defence acquisitions have always been reactionary to another powers capabilities, one would say knee jerk reaction.* IT LACKS STRATEGIC VISION BIG TIME *A reading of the pentagons recent assessment of Indian military capabilities is a case in point.

[SaiK]

If you are going by pentagon assessment, and yelling India lacks strategic vision big time, then you are nothing but loudspeaker for khan services.

If India needed MiG technology, it would come cheaper and everything you guys say keeps us ahead of the raptoriskis and jassosfs, are super firangi intelligent analysis whereas all that IAF dhoti shivering superemos think nothing but 3030 vision.

well, we all have to accept this vision indeed.

[Vishnu]

Hi folks ... my new series ... Bigger, Higher, Faster which looks at the state of the art in civil and military aviation starts airing tomorrow (Saturday) on NDTV 24x7 at 7:30 pm with a repeat on Sunday at 5:30 pm.

Tomorrow's episode features my sortie on the Gripen NG a few months back ... For Gripen flyboys out there ... its a great opportunity to check out the curves of the Swedish beauty ! A lot of the footage has never aired before ... For those looking for super in-depth, exclusive, top-secret details ... you won't find it ... I merely identify the essential technologies and describe it through my experiences ... I am the only civilian to have flown on the Gripen NG ... possibly on any super-cruising fighter ...

Just briefly ... supercruise itself doesn't feel radical by any means ... At about .85 Mach we hit burner ... crossed over into the supersonic regime ... sped to a very respectable Mach number (in seconds) ... switched off burner and stabilised our speed WELL above Mach 1 (no folks, I ain't saying more). We had to Iris wing-tip missiles ... Remember also that the NG prototype is overweight somewhat and this was the twin seater ... so the already impressive Mach number is likely to go up even further ... I should point out though that maintaining supercruise means flying straight and level ... pitching up means (and this is commonsense) you lose speed fast and can drop out of Mach in no time at all ...

The other episodes focus on the Sikorsky S-92 helicopter which we filmed during SAR missions with the British Coastguard operating off the Shetland Islands north of Scotland, the A-380 with Emirates, a look at what makes Singapore Airlines tick ... and also two pretty special military aviation features .. permission for which is just about coming through ... No, I did not fly the LCA !

Enjoy ...

Vishnu Som
Associate Editor, Senior Anchor
NDTV

The other episodes

[shukla]

Hi folks ... my new series ... Bigger, Higher, Faster which looks at the state of the art in civil and military aviation starts airing tomorrow (Saturday) on NDTV 24x7 at 7:30 pm with a repeat on Sunday at 5:30 pm.

Tomorrow's episode features my sortie on the Gripen NG a few months back ... For Gripen flyboys out there ... its a great opportunity to check out the curves of the Swedish beauty ! A lot of the footage has never aired before ... For those looking for super in-depth, exclusive, top-secret details ... you won't find it ... I merely identify the essential technologies and describe it through my experiences ... I am the only civilian to have flown on the Gripen NG ... possibly on any super-cruising fighter ...

Just briefly ... supercruise itself doesn't feel radical by any means ... At about .85 Mach we hit burner ... crossed over into the supersonic regime ... sped to a very respectable Mach number (in seconds) ... switched off burner and stabilised our speed WELL above Mach 1 (no folks, I ain't saying more). We had to Iris wing-tip missiles ... Remember also that the NG prototype is overweight somewhat and this was the twin seater ... so the already impressive Mach number is likely to go up even further ... I should point out though that maintaining supercruise means flying straight and level ... pitching up means (and this is commonsense) you lose speed fast and can drop out of Mach in no time at all ...

The other episodes focus on the Sikorsky S-92 helicopter which we filmed during SAR missions with the British Coastguard operating off the Shetland Islands north of Scotland, the A-380 with Emirates, a look at what makes Singapore Airlines tick ... and also two pretty special military aviation features .. permission for which is just about coming through ... No, I did not fly the LCA !

Enjoy ...

Vishnu Som
Associate Editor, Senior Anchor
NDTV

The other episodes

Thanks Vishnu. Will keep an eye out for the episodes..

[SaiK]

That is so envious Vishnu. Keep it coming.

[Sandeep_ghosh]

Dear BRF Gurus,

Is there any rough price estimates on MMRCA contenders??

[SaiK]

you would know onlee if that lost file carried that info.

[Saurabh_M]

Please note where the credit should go.. The contenders made major modifications to match IL-76's locking systems and not the Russkies to prove a point. jee..

Why would IL-76 locking system be a test parameter otherwise.
Also, IL76 obviously has an edge, because we have already been using it to date
IMO, there is nothing wrong with Russian airframes and engines . . . . never has been

[shukla]

The usual...

US to lobby for $11-bn fighter aircraft deal
Financial Express

Ahead of Aero-India 2011 in Bangalore next month, a high-technology business development trade mission from the US, led by US commerce secretary Gary Locke, is expected to push for US fighter aircraft manufacturers for the $11-bn (medium multi-role combat aircraft) MMRCA deal. Locke, who would lead the trade mission to India from Feburary 6-11, said the US government views high-technology defence sales as a cornerstone of the US-India strategic partnership.

[Christopher Sidor]

Suppose India had partnered MiG in developing the MiG 1.44 further, wouldn't we now have a very able ( most likely superior to the Euro Fighter ) MRCA ? One that we would have partly owned, and it would have been much cheaper then the Super Hornet, Euro Fighter and the Rafale. It would also have prevented leaking of MiG designers and technology to the Chinese.

India's defence acquisitions have always been reactionary to another powers capabilities, one would say knee jerk reaction.* IT LACKS STRATEGIC VISION BIG TIME *A reading of the pentagons recent assessment of Indian military capabilities is a case in point.

I agree with you on this. When India had initially shown interest on the 5th generation fighter, its interest was the Mig 1.44/1.42 concept. The point was that work on this fighter had not started in a big way and India would have a significant contribution, unlike the T-50 Sukhio design concept, in which essentially most of the work was already done. The T-50 fighter was designed with Russian needs in mind. For example work will now start on T-50 to make it a two-seater fighter, which is IAF's requirement and not of the russian air force.

The current FGFA/PAK-FA deal is very similar to the SU-30 deal in which India's contribution would allow the fighter to take off, but India's design contribution would be little. And off course there would be no assurance that the chinese will not get hold of this T-50 Sukhio fighter or will not have access to the technologies on this fighter. In fact it is possible that PLAAF might end up fielding J-20 along with FGFA/PAK-FA fighter. Something similar happened in the case of Su-27/J-11.

If we thought that worrying about PLAAF was not enough, then think again. We might not see Su-27/Su-30 in service in PAF but we might see J-20/J-11 in PAF service soon enough.

[shukla]

Rafales Coming To Aero India
- Shiv Aroor

Two Rafales will make their first public Indian appearance at Aero India 2011 next month at the IAF's Yelahanka air force base.

[Philip]

Absolutely nothing worng with our IL-76s/IL-78s,in fact one has just delivered the scientists,men and material to Antarctica! The same platform is used for our AWACS too.

Reg. the MMRCA stakes,this years Aero-India is going to see a huge amount of dirty tricks,dirty media reports with tons of mud being thrown at the various contenders by their rivals.The US is doing its best to armtwist India through MMS/PMO in awarding the deal to one of its fighters.The "advance party" is coming here to try and unravel the knots about tech-transfer without strings which India wants and the US does not want to change,making India sign the conditionalities on the dotted line.Some legalese and sophistry is expected to circumvent these bottlenecks as was done with the N-deal.Every point will be tapped,babudom,the IAF and the political heavweights.Will India succummb despite the well-known vulnerability of US sanctions and security in buying such a vital weapon system,when it has such a close realtionship with pak.

[GeorgeWelch]

Absolutely nothing worng with our IL-76s/IL-78s

Except for the expense and difficulty in maintaining them, their high fuel burn, their inability to haul cargo/passengers at the same time and their inability to refuel the P-8I and C-17 of course.

[Philip]

When they can refuel all the rest,why then are we buying the C-17 and P-8I! Here were are doing Uncle Sam a favour to keep his plant (C-17) from immediate closure.As with the 2G cam,the truth will eventually "out" in the future.

[Juggi G]

No Russian Fighters In Aero India-2011 !!!

Heard from Russian Officials that no Russian Fighters are Planned for Aero India,
and No Simulators also!!

[shukla]

No Russian Fighters In Aero India-2011 !!!

Seems like their fate is a forgone conclusion. They've probably given up...

[shukla]

Missing file case: IAF committee gives clean chit to officials
The Hindu

[Karan M]

No Russian Fighters In Aero India-2011 !!!

Seems like their fate is a forgone conclusion. They've probably given up...

Hopefully the IAF comes out and says that openly, its only looking at the true "heavies" (in terms of combat capability) - the Rafale, F/A-18 and Typhoon. As to the rest, thanks for trying

[SaiK]

They have not given up.. instead we have a special $30b with them. It was already dealt, and they chose the 30b one rather the 10b one. A logical choice by any business standards.

And the fact france considers this MRCA is so professional contract bidding, it is feeling safe there.. meanwhile the khans have just shot themselves in their foot by banning elta radars for lca, typhoon if it demos take a weight more than rafale.

typhoon vs. rafale is still high on cards.

[nachiket]

No Russian Fighters In Aero India-2011 !!!

Seems like their fate is a forgone conclusion. They've probably given up...

Well we thought the Frenchies had given up as well. Yet, the Rafale is coming to Aero India this year.

[SaiK]

whatever, it is going to be dull with out the 360* OVT cobra displays then.

[shukla]

They have not given up.. instead we have a special $30b with them. It was already dealt, and they chose the 30b one rather the 10b one.

Yes its Russia's gain either way but essentially Mig seems to have lost out to Sukhoi..

[shukla]

Well we thought the Frenchies had given up as well. Yet, the Rafale is coming to Aero India this year.

I am sure the recent "buzz" speculating that the EF & Rafale are on top would have something to do with it. Also, the fact that the new Brazilian president is having a rethink about the rafale deal and an unbaised reassessment of their tender would have been a serious factor.

[SaiK]

Mig have lost even internally to sukhoi for russian requirements. So, no worries, they will be (already!) merged into one russkie consortium. I am not able to recollect what is the new entity called.

PS: got it/dated btw
http://www.uacrussia.ru/en/

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... -unit.html

OAK

[NRao]

They have not given up.. instead we have a special $30b with them. It was already dealt, and they chose the 30b one rather the 10b one. A logical choice by any business standards.

Hope not. It should be because of the technology on display that they should have given up.

Mig have lost even internally to sukhoi for russian requirements.

That is because MiG got paid from the J-20 effort.

[Baldev]

j20 flies

http://www.key.aero/view_news.asp?ID=28 ... n=military