Indo-UK: News & Discussion

joshvajohn · Post by **joshvajohn** » 12 Jan 2011 01:11

So what would I do about "big society" and volunteering if it was up to me?
http://www.i-volunteer.org.uk/rspca_cam ... -up-to-me/

Community shops are Big Society in action
http://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/877995 ... in_action/

Big Society is a good concept. One needs to keep a balance in professional service and volunteering service. One also should invest into Big Society and so cuts no help into Big society.

Britain can learn from some specific examples of how small organised groups in India with microfinancing and micro credits systems have developed successfully for example women selfhelp groups in Tamil Nadu. Some have become competititors for Industries in production, distribution and supplying. At times Government intervention in public distribution helped but once picked up then they become selfsustained business groups, locally empowered, decentralised, locally organised, locally run groups with success stories.

Out of 100 at least 40 groups are successful which means a great sucess in a complex society like in TN.But in Britain this should work well. But the idea remains work in progress. British Primeminister needs a bit of appreciation for this concept.

Christopher Sidor · Post by **Christopher Sidor** » 12 Jan 2011 12:22

Rajesh Great Britian of 1940-50s was an imperial and colonial power. It no longer is. Just like Rome or Athens or Spartans. Britain left Indian shores in 1947 and has not come back. It never will come back.

Churchill may have managed to kill 3 million in East India, racist as he was. He ranks along with Hitler, Satlin and Mao in causing millions of death. But please do not equate contemporary Great Britain with Churchill. Great Britain is much more than Churchill. Just as Soviet Union was more than Stalin. Or Germany is more than Hitler.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 12 Jan 2011 15:35

Christopher Sidor ji,
Sure the expanse of Britain has ebbed.

As I said, Churchill is immaterial. The grouse is against the UK Government. Just because a Rapist has stopped raping or a Murderer stopped murdering, does not mean justice has been done. The demands of justice can only be met, if UK redresses the wrongs committed. One can't give a raped girl her innocence back, nor can one give a dead man his life back. All that is beyond UK's power. But the tradition of compensation has to be done justice.

I don't see, what is wrong in making UK pay up. If they don't have the money, they can write off all Government land to the Indian Government. They can write off their monuments to the GoI, or their Art, or Diego Garcia, or their Military hardware, or open and free migration to UK for all Indians. I don't care if the Englishman is stripped naked of everything he ever possessed. I don't care if the Englishman has to eat grass to survive. I don't care if the Englishman even survives. I know they looted us and killed us, and someday India will bring the British to cough up all it took! Someday the Indians, we will get our pound of flesh!

Maram · Post by **Maram** » 12 Jan 2011 16:29

Only a few years ago, When BBC conducted a poll of 100 greatest Britons, Churchill came out on top!

http://www.biographyonline.net/british/ ... itons.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/2509465.stm

In the country shires and centre right of the country Churchill is an integral part of the narrative of the country! He is deemed very relevant... The lineage goes like this.. Churchill; Thatcher,Tony Blair and Cameron have ensured that the CENTRE- RIGHT hold political power for long periods with Atlee,Mcmillan & Brown as brief interludes. It may not be true, but this is the notion of many centre right voters in what psephologists describe as "Middle England" or "Worscester woman".

Debunking Churchill is an option that could be tried. But, in my view will not be successful currently. The difficulty is to define what is "debunking Churchill" means and defining "success in terms of outcomes of such a strategy" is. The route, I feel to take is "getting the Monarch to APOLOGISE" for Jalianwala bagh massacre. inn 1997, on a state visit to India, she expressed regret!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jallianwala_Bagh_massacre

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 12 Jan 2011 16:43

a while ago i mooted the creation of two threads, let me clarify:

1. civilisational and war crimes of the british empire
2. post WW2 UK-India relations

i think we would be much more productive if we made this separation in terms of discussion. There is a bridge between the two threads, but it is not as large as some posters think

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 12 Jan 2011 17:20

Love jihad seems to be well and alive

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/worl ... 254035.cms

'Not just White girls, Pak Muslim men sexually target Hindu and Sikh girls as well'
TNN, Jan 10, 2011

AMRITSAR: A day after UKs' former home secretary Jack Straw blamed some Pakistani Muslim men for targeting "vulnerable" White girls sexually, UK's Hindu and Sikh organizations also publicly accused Muslim groups of the same offence.

Straw, in an interview to the BBC recently, had said, "...there is a specific problem which involves Pakistani heritage men...who target vulnerable young white girls...they see these young women, white girls who are vulnerable, some of them in care ... who they think are easy meat."

Feeling emboldened by Straw's statement, UK's Hindu and Sikh organizations have also come in open and accused some Pakistani men of specifically targeting Hindu and Sikh girls. "This has been a serious concern for the last decade," said Hardeep Singh of Network of Sikh Organizations (NSO) while talking to TOI on Monday.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Jan 2011 18:48

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-12172633

'New Delhi' superbug named unfairly, says Lancet editor
MRSA Some superbugs are resistant to the most powerful antibiotics

Naming a drug-resistant superbug after the Indian capital Delhi was an "error of judgement", the editor of the Lancet medical journal has said.

Richard Horton said in Delhi that the name had unfairly stigmatised India.

The Lancet journal published research last summer about the bug's discovery.

UK researchers named the enzyme "New Delhi metallo-beta-lactamase 1 (NDM-1)", as some of the victims were found to have recently travelled to India for medical treatment and cosmetic surgery.

However, Cardiff University's Timothy Walsh, who led the research, told the BBC he had no intention of renaming it.

He discovered the enzyme in 2009 in a Swedish patient who had been admitted to hospital in India.

It was said to pose a global threat like Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome (Sars) or human swine flu.

Mr Horton told reporters in Delhi: "It was an error of judgement. We didn't think of its implications, for which I sincerely apologise."

The name "unnecessarily stigmatised a single country and city" and should be changed by researchers, he added.

The Indian government's health ministry had branded the Lancet report as exaggerated and unfair.

Some politicians claimed the name was a plot to damage India's booming health tourism industry.

Indian health experts said that the name suggested incorrectly that Delhi was the origin of the bug.

After the Lancet article, cases were reported elsewhere in Europe, and in Canada, the US, Africa, Australia and East Asia.

Haresh · Post by **Haresh** » 12 Jan 2011 20:25

Princes Charles' new 'Slumdog Millionaire' eco Indian town inspired by Poundbury

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstop ... dbury.html

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 12 Jan 2011 20:49

^ What will be the unit cost in this multi-million pound project estimated to have 3000 homes?

How will it be cheaper by any Indian project?

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 13 Jan 2011 11:17

It seems like a good idea to establish a new model, since no one except for the government is building homes for the poor. Even there, governments are not putting in sewer systems like this project will.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 13 Jan 2011 11:32

vera_k wrote:It seems like a good idea to establish a new model, since no one except for the government is building homes for the poor. Even there, governments are not putting in sewer systems like this project will.

Is there not something patronizing about charlie boys' offer?

This will positively perpetuate our newly highlighted slumdog image.

Why should we even permit this?

Not to mention what subtle non philanthropic agenda may be in play by a future head of the church of england? and the immense value of the land so obtained?

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 13 Jan 2011 11:43

Singha wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-12172633

'New Delhi' superbug named unfairly, says Lancet editor
MRSA Some superbugs are resistant to the most powerful antibiotics

Naming a drug-resistant superbug after the Indian capital Delhi was an "error of judgement", the editor of the Lancet medical journal has said.

Richard Horton said in Delhi that the name had unfairly stigmatised India.

The Lancet journal published research last summer about the bug's discovery.

UK researchers named the enzyme "New Delhi metallo-beta-lactamase 1 (NDM-1)", as some of the victims were found to have recently travelled to India for medical treatment and cosmetic surgery.
However, Cardiff University's Timothy Walsh, who led the research, told the BBC he had no intention of renaming it.

It is a very deliberate, maliciously thought out, skilfully managed, deviously delivered and hurtful knife blow to ruin India's image as a good and economically viable global destination for medical services.

The apology has as much significance as disposing a used condom.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 13 Jan 2011 11:51

Drug resistant strains are common-wait for the British multidrug resistant TB to be isolated at the AIIMS. In a traveler from London of course.

shyam · Post by **shyam** » 13 Jan 2011 13:03

Christopher Sidor wrote:Churchill may have managed to kill 3 million in East India, racist as he was. He ranks along with Hitler, Satlin and Mao in causing millions of death. But please do not equate contemporary Great Britain with Churchill. Great Britain is much more than Churchill. Just as Soviet Union was more than Stalin. Or Germany is more than Hitler.

Churchill may rank among people like Hitler for you, but not for British. For them he is still there best national hero. They have not disowned Chuchill the way Germans have done to Hitler. Electoral defeat doesn't mean disowning by people. Indira Gandhi might have been defeated in elections, but we still proudly remember her contributions.

Churchill has to be decostructed to the extend that British feel ashamed that their ancestors elected him as their leader.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 13 Jan 2011 20:07

shyam wrote:Churchill may rank among people like Hitler for you, but not for British. For them he is still there best national hero. They have not disowned Chuchill the way Germans have done to Hitler.

Fat chance that would happen

. Because for the British, Churchill would remain a hero who played a crucial role in WW2 and helped Britain win the war. And AFAIK, how ever racist he was he has not tried his dirty trick against British. So the common man in UK, would be least bit bothered about what he did to the British Colony of India, would be of least importance. It would take a really huge effort if you could convince the average folks at Britain, that Churchill should be hated because he did x, y and z things in India.

Churchill has to be decostructed to the extend that British feel ashamed that their ancestors elected him as their leader.

Indira Gandhi is considered to be the lady behind the 1971 Bangladesh Liberation War (i.e the political leadership). How much effort would be required by the other politicians to show case her as a wily character? Our own opposition parties have tried to do that for ages. Do you feel they have got a reasonable level of success?

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 13 Jan 2011 20:44

the mango war time brit didnt understand or care about the colonies or colonials. he/she cared more about german bombs falling on their heads and the loss of home and family. the actual wars were fought far away and news was carefully controlled. as far as they know/care churchill was the symbol of stopping all that, and getting rid of that nasty man hitler, who (at least to them) did bad things. even during ww2, the burma army was known as 'the forgotten army' back in old blighty

there is almost no public awareness of what imperialism meant except that there once was an empire. after WW2 'the empire' even dissappeared from school text books

the only brits today who are aware of the things that many here passionately write about are the old guard elite (mostly now dead) and historians

the modern brit has zero knopwledge and understanding of these things. it has been a japanese style 'nothing ever happened' type of historical knowledge building, no german style guilt and regret training in the modern generations - which is what we might desire

the mango brit today already understands that india was once under them but is now overtaking them, they are coming to accept it as the new normal and with it comes fear and anxiety

but these things are happening in a background of public ignorance

Indians are only too aware of the past, but if we want the brits to acknowledge it, then it has to be done at a Government level

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 13 Jan 2011 21:12

The people would start disowning Churchill when they find out they have to pay compensation for his deeds.

Maram · Post by **Maram** » 13 Jan 2011 21:14

Forget educating British folks about the true horror of colonial subjugation of India by the British Empire. First we need to educate many Indians who have migrated to Britain in the 1970s. Most of them actually minimise the true horrors by saying current India is worse than that(believing BBC news was like the vedas, by saying India will separate into a 100 countries/Mayawati/Lalu are far worse than the British etc.... etc...)

This generation have brought up their children believing West is the Best and India is full of snake charmers and half naked fakirs.... Its only in the last decade that such preconceived notions are being challenged and the inevitability of India's rise being accepted main stream.

The conservative government has started emphasising children to learn foreign languages again in secondary schools. Instead of French and Latin, it was suggested that Mandarin,Hindi and Spanish be encouraged. This will give opportunities for the Indian High Commission to utilise opportunities and educate the public of the true horrors of colonial rule of India.

I remember how British high commission has several British Libraries in India. India high commission should open several Indian libraries in Britain as avenues to facilitate exchanges of the sort we are seeking.

JMT

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 13 Jan 2011 21:35

Maram wrote:I remember how British high commission has several British Libraries in India. India high commission should open several Indian libraries in Britain as avenues to facilitate exchanges of the sort we are seeking.

The world is digital onlee!

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 13 Jan 2011 21:58

chetak wrote:Is there not something patronizing about charlie boys' offer?

This will positively perpetuate our newly highlighted slumdog image.

Whatever his motives, the fact remains that slums are a huge part of life in Indian cities. Plus, the government sponsored schemes for slum redevelopment or building toilets are falling short. The only way to remove the slumdog image is to do away with the slums and lack of sanitation, and this project plans to do that in small measure.

Bhima · Post by **Bhima** » 16 Jan 2011 03:43

Christopher Sidor wrote: Rajesh one of the traits of greatness is "forgiveness".

I believe the best approach is to "forgive but remember". Forgive the criminal (clearing toxic hate which only serves to blur a reasoned and ruthlessly logical approach to problem solving) but remember the crime well to take appropriate measures grounded in the knowledge of past experience to ensure it is never repeated which I am sure is of highest importance and concern.

Never mind Churchill. He did what he did because it was in the interests of his people. He made the cold calculations and big decisions for the greater good of his tribe so for the British he will always be great. The biggest lesson was to develop into a nation which cannot be divided which was the basis of their mastery and our slavery. I am not convinced India, as a civilisation, has actually learnt this lesson.

joshvajohn · Post by **joshvajohn** » 16 Jan 2011 04:26

One of the things the Indian mind has move forward is to rethink about their attitude towards the British. Yes ofcourse Britsh Raj was in power in India and now it no more. Also we are in a different position and contexts now. It is essential to move from the old hatredness towards British to a new friendly country in a way to cooperate and to build many nations together possibly. Britain has accommodated many Indians and have reasonablly respected their cultures. In Britain there are a number of beautiful temples, Gurudwaras and Indian mosques which are not only given their respect but also many concessions. Certainly one should highlight the bad sides of history while there is need to move forward and live today's reality where coutries have changed their economic status. India does not need talked about its reference to British past rather a new India with her developing characteristcs. Possibly India should also enhance development and fairness at all level to the extent to say no to the development fund from Britain. Also the investment from Indians in UK has increased a lot and also Indians are recognised as very good hard workers. Our question at this stage how can we do business together and how can we help each other in our economic growth. many of our great scientists are given space to do their reseach in uk including the recent noble price winner. Our postcolonial critique of our past should enable us to redevelop a new mind and attitude towards Britain and Brisish people as a whole. Post colonial perspective should enable people to reconstruct an alternative reality of relationship where present is more friendly and cooperative than is determined by the past events and also any good relationship blocked by the memories of the past. This also needs to be done in relations to British people which is happenning due to many good Indian being present here in UK. I hope British people would recognise Indians and their contribution to their country a lot more than what they do now.

UK for deepening cooperation with India in education sector
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 243143.cms

UK economy risks 'playing in slow lane of history'
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-12133254

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 16 Jan 2011 07:03

Bhima wrote:
Christopher Sidor wrote: Rajesh one of the traits of greatness is "forgiveness".
I believe the best approach is to "forgive but remember". Forgive the criminal (clearing toxic hate which only serves to blur a reasoned and ruthlessly logical approach to problem solving) but remember the crime well to take appropriate measures grounded in the knowledge of past experience to ensure it is never repeated which I am sure is of highest importance and concern.

Never mind Churchill. He did what he did because it was in the interests of his people. He made the cold calculations and big decisions for the greater good of his tribe so for the British he will always be great. The biggest lesson was to develop into a nation which cannot be divided which was the basis of their mastery and our slavery. I am not convinced India, as a civilisation, has actually learnt this lesson.

Forgiveness comes into the picture only after a criminal has stopped denying the crime.

It's important to remember the lessons of the colonial experience, because the colonial forces are still active today - albeit with different modus operandi.

That said, it is counter-productive to focus too much on "Britain" or "Christianity" ... the underlying principle is different.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 16 Jan 2011 07:34

Bhima wrote:
Christopher Sidor wrote: Rajesh one of the traits of greatness is "forgiveness".
I believe the best approach is to "forgive but remember". Forgive the criminal (clearing toxic hate which only serves to blur a reasoned and ruthlessly logical approach to problem solving) but remember the crime well to take appropriate measures grounded in the knowledge of past experience to ensure it is never repeated which I am sure is of highest importance and concern.

Bhima ji,

Who are we to forgive previous generations so grievously and wantonly wronged by a alcoholic, pitiless and ungrateful racist moron and his equally culpable colleagues? Have they asked our forgiveness or are they ordering us to forgive so that they may take forward their petty commercial interests?

Kick these dudes whenever you get a chance and never forget. Nothing has changed on their side. Imagine a third rate "power" like the UK on the security council!!! No stomach to even last out in iraq or afghanistan. ( unless of course they want native soldiers( meaning Indian) officered by "very competent" british officers.)

Remind them constantly of their basic undeniable civilizational traits. The islamic fundamentalists in ukstan have got in right. The brits are now bowing and scraping to a few bearded goons in the futile hope that they may be spared.

And yet they continue to look down upon Indians. I deal pretty much with a lot of goras who on the whole are circumspect and well behaved but there are always the few who benefit from a very swift kick to the pants. Then the bowing and the scraping starts.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 16 Jan 2011 07:59

Bhima wrote:
Christopher Sidor wrote: Rajesh one of the traits of greatness is "forgiveness".

Never mind Churchill. He did what he did because it was in the interests of his people. He made the cold calculations and big decisions for the greater good of his tribe so for the British he will always be great. The biggest lesson was to develop into a nation which cannot be divided which was the basis of their mastery and our slavery. I am not convinced India, as a civilisation, has actually learnt this lesson.

Bhima ji,

Churchill did not need the large amount of grain he so wantonly diverted.

He could have done with a great deal less and spared a lot of Indian lives. This wretched soul was not the slightest bit grateful for the vast numbers of Indian soldiers who served with distinction in THEIR war.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 16 Jan 2011 08:14

Meanwhile, back at the ranch...

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/rahul ... t/738076/0

Rahul can’t visit UK mission to give fingerprints, MEA finds a way out

Posted: Sun Jan 16 2011, 04:43 hrs
New Delhi:

What happens when Rahul Gandhi is pressed for time to go to the British High Commission for giving his fingerprints for a visa? The Government of India steps in and sends an official note to the high commission, seeking relaxation of rules.

The incident happened last month, when the AICC general secretary applied for a UK visa for a personal visit, but due to a tight schedule, couldn’t find time to visit the High Commission in the Capital to give his fingerprints.

Acting swiftly on a request sent by his office, the Union Ministry of External Affairs (MEA) sent an official communique to the UK High Commission, which let it exempt the Amethi MP.

It is not known whether Rahul went to London. Asked about it, British High Commission sources said they were “not aware that there has been any problem in the case of the specific individual”.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 16 Jan 2011 10:46

Regarding churchill...Back in those days, you'd be hard pressed to find a single englishman who actually considered the SDRE natives in their African and Asian colonies to be his equals. So when you have a nation of racists, it is not surprising that their elected leader happens to be one of the the biggest racist b@st@rds around.
I have no doubt that they would not have changed theses views of theirs even today but for the fact that their empire has evaporated and their island is little more than an American base in Europe.

Raja Ram · Post by **Raja Ram** » 16 Jan 2011 11:19

Churchil will be assessed by the British differently always. He was their man of destiny who delivered for them during their darkest hours post Dunkirk. He held the British hopes alive when all was lost for them in Europe. For that and more, he will be assessed differently. That is understandable.

What is important to me as an Indian in India is the correct assessment of Churchill with respect to India. And here he is the same as other evil men who wielded great power and caused much destruction and death. He belongs rightfully to the league of Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot and Tojo. Like Genralissimo Franco of Spain, he will always be one who had some redeeming qualities for his own countrymen.

Unfortunately, that is not the way we are taught in India about Churchill. A realistic assessment of this man has to be made officially in India and that is what we Indians will assess. This is far more important to Indians then how British assess their wartime PM. I would be more than happy if we at least do this correctly. To expect the British to run down Churchill, when we ourselves do not recognise his crimes agains India is a bit too much. Just not going to happen.

Neshant · Post by **Neshant** » 16 Jan 2011 11:26

Anyway that MFer churchill is dead and India is on the rise.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 16 Jan 2011 14:48

Agree with Raja Ram.

Meanwhile, ss_roy has been banned for advocating genocide.

Bhima · Post by **Bhima** » 16 Jan 2011 16:42

Please do not misunderstand me. Forgiveness is not acceptance, justification or a concession. It is the positive release of negative energy that only serves to poison the one who practices hate and anger. Forgiveness is an exit from the cycle of repeated bad results. To me all forgiveness is self forgiveness. I forgive myself for allowing a criminal to commit a crime upon me. This is not Gandhian philosophy. I am preparing a state of mind that improves my performance by freeing myself of thoughts and feelings that only distract from my goals.

We can sit back and whine about how we were wronged, who we hate and why we hate them or we can forgive and prepare for the next attack by understanding where we went wrong.

JMT's

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 16 Jan 2011 18:10

Bhima wrote:This is not Gandhian philosophy. I am preparing a state of mind that improves my performance by freeing myself of thoughts and feelings that only distract from my goals.

I don't buy this. A mind freed of emotion may be in a better state to think logically, rationally and apply itself to some task, but it is the emotion that drives the car of your thoughts. It is emotion that tells your mind, which tasks to apply itself to. It tells which tasks get priority. Without emotion, one loses the pain, the impulse, the drive to solve the problem. At some point in time, one would rationally think we are all part of evolution, it is natural that ethnicities led by its elites compete with each other, some ethnicities lose, but in the long run all things change, even the winners, time heals, in the end we are all dead, the sun will become a red giant and eventually white dwarf, all is maya, etc. etc.

Cut out the emotionalism, and one loses focus!

Bhima wrote:We can sit back and whine about how we were wronged, who we hate and why we hate them or we can forgive and prepare for the next attack by understanding where we went wrong.

It is exactly pain that will make you think about what went wrong.

Let's not be the stupid natives who give away our precious wealth to the white man, because nobody ever told us how precious it was. Forgiveness is very precious and the other side must pay dearly to get it. Then we can set aside hate. Till the compensation is not made, hate should remain.

Varoon Shekhar · Post by **Varoon Shekhar** » 16 Jan 2011 19:54

"What is important to me as an Indian in India is the correct assessment of Churchill with respect to India. And here he is the same as other evil men who wielded great power and caused much destruction and death. He belongs rightfully to the league of Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot and Tojo."- Raja Ram

Definitely. But what is puzzling is the non-chalance or sheer ignorance of Indians in quoting Churchill( i.e the "men of straw" line, or even the description of Russia as a riddle wrapped in an enigma etc) or speaking admiringly of his efforts in WW2. What could that possibly have to do with India, or with Churchill's view of, or relationship with India? For Indians, that is the most important issue. Not Churchill's leadership qualities or his oratorical skills. Even if Indians can acknowledge Churchill's importance to Britain, it should always be qualified, and big time, with a denunciation/condemnation of his anti-India racist imperious arrogance.

Bhima · Post by **Bhima** » 17 Jan 2011 02:55

I have made my point clear and I stand by it. I think we should agree to disagree on this. Unfortunately I don't have time to go in depth on this.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 17 Jan 2011 04:52

@@RajeshA^^

"Let's not be the stupid natives who give away our precious wealth to the white man, because nobody ever told us how precious it was. Forgiveness is very precious and the other side must pay dearly to get it. Then we can set aside hate. Till the compensation is not made, hate should remain."

I think what Bhima meant to say is that unless you learn why the guys who whupped us whupped us, and learn to never let it happen again (like the Jews). Whining and rejecting the technology, organization and sense of purpose that gave those guys the upper hand, will only lead to a repeat.

Every 'enlightened' paki writeup starts with Jinnah's speech and retraces steps and wrongs inflicted since 1947. What we need to do is start today and say (and do) : " Not gonna happen again!". Understand history but but don't live in the past. It's what losers and Pakis do. To threepeat: "Never Again" !

It's not about forgiving or forgetting. It's about learning what we did wrong.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 17 Jan 2011 12:34

Cosmo_R wrote: It's not about forgiving or forgetting. It's about learning what we did wrong.

Considering that MMS can go to Oxford and grovel before the Brits with statements like "British rule was good for India in some respects" and not get a entire nation to do a "ack-thoo" on that means that what needs to be discussed is what we are doing wrong rather than what we did wrong.

Once the current Indian population can implicity understand Churchill >> Hitler as a mass murdering, racist bigot, we can then move to considering what we "did" wrong.

Fixing Churchill and British behavior in black and white is critical in making sure that we do wrong TODAY is fixed.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 17 Jan 2011 16:23

Cosmo_R ji,

Sanku ji has mostly said what needed to be said. Here in my words.

I know there is a general thinking like,
hum ko man ki shakti dena,
man vijay karen,
doosron ki jai se pehle,
khud ko jai karen.

I don't really have anything against these words of wisdom. However I am not sure whether these words mean the same thing to everybody.

You say we need to learn what we did wrong -- khud ko jai karen. That is good. We need to learn about that. But what Bhima, and I presume you too, are proposing is before we begin our analysis, we do the forgiving bit. Supposedly this would help us analyze with a clearer head. But what if "forgiving" was one of the important reasons for our past failure, but it does not pop up in our final analysis, as we had already discounted it before starting the analysis, being ideologically motivated in favor of forgiveness.

Why is there the notion of retaliation upon attack? Liberals tell you that attacking wouldn't bring our loved ones back again. In a law abiding state, where state should have the monopoly on all violence, there is a system of justice, and if one has the confidence in the state, perhaps one may want to outsource justice to the state. But what if the attackers are powerful, what if they are the state, what if they are the system, what if they are a non-state actor, what if your attacker is beyond the reach of traditional justice? What to do then?

If they are too powerful, you hold your powder dry. Wait for your time. You build up your strength. In the end you give them retaliation as hard as you've got. All should get retaliation - whether they are powerful or your equal or just troublesome. This is not a question of emotionalism. This is question of clarity of thought. If one does not deliver on retaliation sooner or later, you run the risk of others thinking that screwing you is for free. Anybody who throws an evil look at you, should remember what happened to all those who dared to attack you or subjugate you.

So having an image as someone with long memories of victimhood and long enmities, as someone who believe in massive retaliation, is useful. That itself counts for two-thirds of your security - your image. An image of ruthlessness and persistence saves you about 75% of your defense budget. An image of softness, understanding, mercy, forgiveness, adjustment, flexibility, greater good, etc. means you wouldn't be safe even with ten times your budget deficit.

So forgiveness is really bad for your security.

Forgiveness is also bad for business. A compensation package for the British occupation of India would go into trillions. In fact the amount would be so huge, that Britain would not even be able to pay for it after they sell all their land. Not even if the India uses all the Brits as organ donors for the Indian sick, would the costs be covered. But in order to make it realistic, a compensation package can be agreed upon. Goes without saying, it would be of an order of a trillion pounds or higher. Now why should India and Indians relinquish claims on that? Or alternately Great Britain can apply to become a state of the Indian Union, and we can waiver the compensation obligations.

So rationally put, forgiveness is bad for security and bad for business, and I can't understand why people stand eagerly in line to be amongst the first to forgive.

Christopher Sidor · Post by **Christopher Sidor** » 17 Jan 2011 16:57

What Bhima was saying is that we can whine and cry about what churchill did to Indians, like the chinese and other east asian countries get upset with the japs, or we can pick ourselves up, drain the poison from our system and move on.

In our Hindu mythology, there was durodhana, who could not forget or forgive a slight from drupadi or overlook the behavior of over-bearing Son of Kunti, bheema. This lead to the 18 day massacre at kurkshethra. And the saddest part was, Durodhana had to watch all the people he loved, his brothers, his best friend karna, his great-great-grandfather, his sons, etc die in front of his eyes. After the 18th day, he himself confessed to Son of Ganga, Bhisma, "What will I do by winning now? All the people who would have been happy seeing me rule are gone."

Hatred is a poison. It is at par with Anger as one of the worse vices to hold on. It is a poison which clouds judgment and has the potential to kill. This is happening now. Just because of Churchill we are ranting against Britishers and Britain. And why because a few Britishers responding to a poll think that Churchill was one of their most influential Prime Ministers. Here is the deal, just because Britishers say so, does not make it so.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 17 Jan 2011 17:17

Christopher Sidor wrote: Hatred is a poison. It is at par with Anger as one of the worse vices to hold on.

Why is calling Churchill a a racist bigot hatred? Just exactly what hate has been displayed here?

This is happening now. Just because of Churchill we are ranting against Britishers and Britain.

So you do not agree that those who commit a crime should pay for it.

. Here is the deal, just because Britishers say so, does not make it so.

Of course, what it does is that it lets us know what what value system exists in Britain today, that they consider a mass murdering racist bigot to be their best PM.

Who or what was their best PM is not particularly relevant to the discussion here.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 17 Jan 2011 17:18

Sigh!

Ideologists love to compare apples with oranges, just so that some words like 'forgiveness' remain golden beads and silver pearls of widom, regardless of context they are used in. So for them it makes no difference whether forgiveness is in context of family disputes or international parties, whether it is in context of neighbors, or those outside the region, whether it is in context of a current pain or historical grievance, whether it is for a personal tragedy or for a national calamity.

All those differences just get ironed away and one gets a new God on the shining hill called FORGIVENESS.

One might as well open a Forgiveness Section in our Embassies abroad, providing free forgiveness cards for forgiveness for all past and future crimes against India.