PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 16 Jan 2011 10:16

shiv wrote:
Pratyush wrote:
But why must India try to match the Raptor.
<snip>
A start today with the skill base available in country will get the results in the next 10 to 15 years max. If that is what is desired by the IAF. If the goal is followed as a national mission.
Pratyush-ji - do you see the problem. The Raptor was flying a decade ago. If we develop an FGFA in 15 years - we are 25 years behind. And if it does not meet the Raptor's standards - people are going to curse "Indian incompetence".

I believe the problem in India is not merely technical, but it is a mental block that has consistently held Indian products back. Think about that. There is only contempt for something made in India and for the people working on Indian tech. This bar is more difficult to cross than a technological bar because it prevents funding, prevents people from joining a program and causes frustration. All this has been true for all Indian programs. The HF 24 itself was finally pushed under by Indian behavior.

Shiv,

What you say is true WRT the Indian mental block. However, as we see more and more Indian successes in different fields. The national confidence will grow. That will make the job of crossing the mental bar easier. But for this to happen we need to have people who look for the silver lining in a dark cloud. Rather then look for a dark cloud for a silver lining.

But for some reason I feel that as long as defense production remains a near monopoly fro the DPSUs. Things will not change. We need to have a viberent pvt sector freed from crony capitalism. That includes the defense production.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 16 Jan 2011 10:32

darshhan wrote:

Pratyush ji , I beg to differ on the above points.India neither has the industrial base nor manpower to pull of a project like F-22 before 2030 at the earliest.India simply doesn't have the critical mass as far as aviation sector is concerned till now.Now India has the talent to develop both indutrial capability and manpower but it will take sustained focus and investment on the part of GOI.

Darshan,

What is required is a clear national focus and a sidelining of the Shlya Sarthies. As long as we have a bunch of people who are undermining every Indian effort as outdated and overpriced then the national focus will never be at the goal. But always be doubting what is being done. This is what i believe the main thrust of Shiv's post was.

OT
We saw the national Shalya Sarthies out in full force during the run up for the CWG in OCT. To that extent even on the day the LCA reached the IOC. They were out in full force. They are out in full force every time an Indian effort fails. They don't come back and say, learn from the failure and succeed the next time.

OT off

What is needed is a national goal and focus to getting the job done at all costs. Disregarding all the detractors of the goal. Now in a democracy, you cant shut up the people who are critical of the work. But they cannot be allowed to demoralise the nation.

You do that, you will find that the tech base and the industrial capability is right around the corner. But at the same time. The pvt sector needs to be unleashed in defense sector. let the DRDO become the coordination agency like the US DARPA.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 16 Jan 2011 12:07

Pratyush wrote: However, as we see more and more Indian successes in different fields. The national confidence will grow. That will make the job of crossing the mental bar easier. But for this to happen we need to have people who look for the silver lining in a dark cloud. Rather then look for a dark cloud for a silver lining.

I have a vengeful mind. As each product/effort succeed we need to go back and rip out the guts of the critics and competing products which were used in comparisons to diss our folks/products.

Have a hearty last laugh IOW . Sorry OT

VishalJ · Post by **VishalJ** » 17 Jan 2011 08:56

Gurinder P · Post by **Gurinder P** » 17 Jan 2011 09:14

Vishal Jolapara wrote:

I am so much in love with this aircraft. I firmly believe that any pilot who is chosen to fly this aircraft has to get "bad ass" tattooed over their butt cheeks. In other news, this photo seems to be photoshopped a bit.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 17 Jan 2011 09:35

Wonderful HDR!

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Jan 2011 09:40

the air intake area seems to be plenty larger than su30. obviously sized for higher airflow needs of Al41F. and its more squarish.

VishalJ · Post by **VishalJ** » 17 Jan 2011 10:01

Gurinder P wrote:I am so much in love with this aircraft. I firmly believe that any pilot who is chosen to fly this aircraft has to get "bad ass" tattooed over their butt cheeks.
In other news, this photo seems to be photoshopped a bit.

Yes!
As Prasad pointed-out, its an HDR image, which is nothing but a combination of multiple shots of the same object from the same spot at varying exposures & then combining them in Photoshop to accentuate certain elements in the photo or get a specific effect.

P Chitkara · Post by **P Chitkara** » 17 Jan 2011 16:44

This is no shivering by the Russians, just a ploy to extract..oops...get more money released from us asap.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 17 Jan 2011 16:58

shiv wrote:I have a vengeful mind. As each product/effort succeed we need to go back and rip out the guts of the critics and competing products which were used in comparisons to diss our folks/products. Have a hearty last laugh IOW . Sorry OT

Will this include senior serving personnel such as the Air Chief, who courted controversy at the present Tejas induction (generations, comparison to mig-21 etc), only to later clarify his statements, after the damage was done? It exactly dovetails with what P Rajkumar noted about how the first Air Chief visited Tejas and was told by his brass to deliberately run down/downplay support for the program. Clearly, there is a clique of personnel who put personal/organizational ego over national will and motive .

All the evidence in the world does not matter when our own people make it a point to act petty. In that sense, the PR campaign/charade/effort PRC did vis a vis the J-10/J-20 is remarkable. No matter internal challenges, they present a unified face to the external public, and realize the worth of a cooperative effort, even when issues within are of a magnitude worse than what we face in India.
http://www.manufacturing.net/News-Chine ... menuid=724

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 17 Jan 2011 18:16

Karan M wrote:
shiv wrote:I have a vengeful mind. As each product/effort succeed we need to go back and rip out the guts of the critics and competing products which were used in comparisons to diss our folks/products. Have a hearty last laugh IOW . Sorry OT
Will this include senior serving personnel such as the Air Chief, who courted controversy at the present Tejas induction (generations, comparison to mig-21 etc), only to later clarify his statements, after the damage was done? It exactly dovetails with what P Rajkumar noted about how the first Air Chief visited Tejas and was told by his brass to deliberately run down/downplay support for the program. Clearly, there is a clique of personnel who put personal/organizational ego over national will and motive .

All the evidence in the world does not matter when our own people make it a point to act petty. In that sense, the PR campaign/charade/effort PRC did vis a vis the J-10/J-20 is remarkable. No matter internal challenges, they present a unified face to the external public, and realize the worth of a cooperative effort, even when issues within are of a magnitude worse than what we face in India.
http://www.manufacturing.net/News-Chine ... menuid=724

Contrast his statement with those of former Admiral Arun Prakash linked elsewhere. Zameen-aasmaan ka difference.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 17 Jan 2011 19:14

No matter internal challenges, they present a unified face to the external public, and realize the worth of a cooperative effort,

My understanding is that there is rather high dissent and compartmentalization, within China. This particular J-20 effort has only a semblance of a joint face. IMHO.

I still am of the opinion that China will crumble under its own weight. ................. ????

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 17 Jan 2011 22:07

I would not be surprised if the russkies suddenly announce from the backyard of pak-fa facility, that they are seriously testing plasma stealth based on 100s of Ghz RF induced plasma ions. If they can ionize the frontal air intakes, it can zero down on the rcs by factors to break raptor's frequencies. But, that would be just a hypothetical assumption, going by the way the pak-fa was secretly handled, and successfully flown. All they have to do is distort a range of RF frequencies with a side effect of thermal radiations which are safe anyway for existing generation of IR seekers at BVR.

intakes may be the ideal plasma stealth candidate is JMT.
-------

However, it's much more probable that Canada would end up using fighter aircraft in combat with Russian (or Chinese) proxies in southern Asia than in direct confrontation with Russia.

now why are these canadians fear based on? who will they fight - chinese proxy most likely would be paki airforce, and russian proxies - iran? or any other middle eastern country? nevertheless, the dhoti shiver value has a lot of effect.

"southern asia "?

btw, from the same link:- http://telegraphjournal.canadaeast.com/ ... le/1368121

India's Air Chief, Marshal Fali H. Major, recently announced a fifth-generation Indo-Russian fighter aircraft, the T-50 PAK-FA, will be ready for introduction by 2017. Sukhoi's Director Mikhail Pogosyan says he's "strongly convinced" the PAK-FA, which first test-flew on Jan. 29, 2010, will excel Western gen-five rivals.

more sale for raptors then for canada, and they are focused on "southern asia" now.

Gurinder P · Post by **Gurinder P** » 18 Jan 2011 06:56

SaiK wrote:I would not be surprised if the russkies suddenly announce from the backyard of pak-fa facility, that they are seriously testing plasma stealth based on 100s of Ghz RF induced plasma ions. If they can ionize the frontal air intakes, it can zero down on the rcs by factors to break raptor's frequencies. But, that would be just a hypothetical assumption, going by the way the pak-fa was secretly handled, and successfully flown. All they have to do is distort a range of RF frequencies with a side effect of thermal radiations which are safe anyway for existing generation of IR seekers at BVR.

intakes may be the ideal plasma stealth candidate is JMT.
-------

However, it's much more probable that Canada would end up using fighter aircraft in combat with Russian (or Chinese) proxies in southern Asia than in direct confrontation with Russia.
now why are these canadians fear based on? who will they fight - chinese proxy most likely would be paki airforce, and russian proxies - iran? or any other middle eastern country? nevertheless, the dhoti shiver value has a lot of effect.

"southern asia "?

btw, from the same link:- http://telegraphjournal.canadaeast.com/ ... le/1368121
India's Air Chief, Marshal Fali H. Major, recently announced a fifth-generation Indo-Russian fighter aircraft, the T-50 PAK-FA, will be ready for introduction by 2017. Sukhoi's Director Mikhail Pogosyan says he's "strongly convinced" the PAK-FA, which first test-flew on Jan. 29, 2010, will excel Western gen-five rivals.
more sale for raptors then for canada, and they are focused on "southern asia" now.

[Sorry, IPad likes to glitch alot.]

Dude, I am from Canada and I can officially say that our current conservative government is totally going paranoid over shit. They are fear mongering that Russia wants to take over our Arctic when the most likely candidate to do that is America. Our government wants to ink a deal for $16b for the JSF and we are only getting 60 some odd fighters. The deal would have already been inked if it weren't for the fact the our gov is a minority.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 18 Jan 2011 09:07

Sukhoi’s fifth-generation fighter

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 18 Jan 2011 09:50

Austin wrote:Sukhoi’s fifth-generation fighter

Excellent article Austin - good find...going into minute details of the genesis of the Pak-fa and also accommodates the Indian angle to complete a comprehensive story.

joygoswami · Post by **joygoswami** » 24 Jan 2011 22:53

My God

I hope I am not being OT, and also If this has been posted before. This is the first time I am seeing an American News Channel mocking the F-22 Raptor in such a Violent way. Seems foolish but some facts are right too.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 24 Jan 2011 23:39

Joy don't worry too much about such news. It is very old. While it is true too some extent. But it is a heavily biased view. If some news reader dramatizes things so much so that it sounds as theatrics, you can be pretty much sure that she/he is trying grab eyeballs or involved with politics (very often the case).

Also they have produced things out of perspective:
1. Multiple hours of maintenance per hour of flight is an aviation norm. 30 is definitely high but then F-22 is the most advanced plane and complex plane of its time. It is a good 20 years ahead of its time when compared with its contemporaries.
2. 356 million per plane is considering its development cost. Imagine the development cost of each Tejas, if you consider development cost. This is the same for any ground-breaking first. The RnD there is used in follow-ons. Tejas MKII, AMCA, RTA-90, IJT etc. gained on the RnD done for Tejas. Same applies for F-35s, F-15 Silent Eagle etc. from F-22.
3. Re -tooling and hand-fitting stuff isn't uncommon either.
4. Between A2A platforms are never meant to have high armor. It is detrimental to weight. And why on earth would they fly an A2A platform in Afghanistan?

Between at around 2:50 they show fabrication of F-35s

.

US had the money to fund such a project. Today it doesn't have the money to continue with the same. So they are killing it. It is simple. I just don't understand this theatrics

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 24 Jan 2011 23:43

Noob question : Is a second prototype expected to have any structural modifications ?

joygoswami · Post by **joygoswami** » 25 Jan 2011 00:05

indranilroy wrote:Joy don't worry too much about such news. It is very old. While it is true too some extent. But it is a heavily biased view. If some news reader dramatizes things so much so that it sounds as theatrics, you can be pretty much sure that she/he is trying grab eyeballs or involved with politics (very often the case)

Yes Sir, completely agree with you. At times, the whole presentation seemed like a joke. No matter what, the F-22 remains a cut above the rest, as of now surely. But it was funny to see some comments by Chinki Boys calling it the Craptor. Its certainly not crap, No way.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 25 Jan 2011 02:23

joygoswami wrote: Yes Sir, completely agree with you. At times, the whole presentation seemed like a joke. No matter what, the F-22 remains a cut above the rest, as of now surely. But it was funny to see some comments by Chinki Boys calling it the Craptor. Its certainly not crap, No way.

Ofcourse it is crap in front of the J-20! According to some fizaiyyan reporters, even the JF-17s can shoot it out of the sky any given day.

P.S. Please drop the sir

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 25 Jan 2011 06:46

joygoswami wrote:My God I hope I am not being OT, and also If this has been posted before. This is the first time I am seeing an American News Channel mocking the F-22 Raptor in such a Violent way. Seems foolish but some facts are right too.

Going beyond the hype the video illustrates some interesting things:
1) The F-22 was, like America's Apollo moon landing program, money spent on spectacular technology development for "prestige", that may result in tech spinoffs like nonstick frying pans and velcro on bras.
2) The words "wetted area" is no joke. For every cm of increased internal space you get one sq cm of external surface area.
3) The "thin skin" report was a revelation to me.
4) With an inability to seamlessly network with other aircraft, the F-22 is not quite 5th generation. A 3-legged lion?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 25 Jan 2011 07:57

say if kill ratio is 1:22 or even lesser the khans have it. i have met khan force men who says this is all reverse spin to freeze-stabilize-advance to next platform. normal cycle to stage a new set of product lines for new jobs.

joygoswami · Post by **joygoswami** » 25 Jan 2011 09:17

shiv wrote: 4) With an inability to seamlessly network with other aircraft, the F-22 is not quite 5th generation. A 3-legged lion?

Yes, ShivJi. Thank you replying, and its my first post to you. Yes, this is something I was not aware of either. The show was MSNBC hosted, dont think they would lie, although I do find the it funny how she mocks the price tag. 3 Eurofighters would come at that price though. But sadly where I live, I could never get see the EF-2000, if it wins. Will have to make up with Mi-17, Cheetals and Chetak, rising from my backyard and disturbing my post night-shift sleep everyday !

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 25 Jan 2011 09:33

shiv sahab,

It is not entirely right that F-22 can't communicate with "other" planes. Here "other" stands of "other types of planes". It was designed extensively to communicate with other F-22 in a networked attack. Infact the F-22 was the pioneer to communicate through the AESA radar and the terms like"mini AEWACs". However no other plane at that time could do it. So the communications were designed to be limited within the F-22s (I would say this was really a lack of foresight or a clash of interests). Now that other planes are coming aboard with such communications, there is a mismatch.

However, they are working on mitigating this.

disha · Post by **disha** » 25 Jan 2011 09:42

joygoswami wrote:My God I hope I am not being OT, and also If this has been posted before. This is the first time I am seeing an American News Channel mocking the F-22 Raptor in such a Violent way. Seems foolish but some facts are right too.

Rachel Maddow's gig (on her talk show) is to mock. Generally she mocks the Republicans and is a leftist. If you noticed carefully, whatever she says is based generally on facts and she mocks the politicians (parochial interests/too big too fail etc) more than the designers or the engineers. She does criticize the pentagon., for purposely showing a lower cost estimate to the US house of representatives. Note again, that is based on facts and not on some hear say.

She also points out that this is a case study of how bad defense "things" are made, nowhere she says that an aircraft should not be made., her contention is it is too costly and not that useful and has to be taken out of equation.

Understanding this is important., since constructive criticism is an art and has to be fostered and most of the Indian defence journos do not understand that. For example if ChackoJoseph would write a piece criticizing a defence item., most of us at BR will pay notice. However if Motorham Chindits (a creature you will know in due time)., criticizes a defence item., most of us at BR will do :ROFL:. Same goes for Shiv Erroor (not to be confused with the other, Shiv the pisko guy) and others.

PS: Saar, just in good humour onleee.

disha · Post by **disha** » 25 Jan 2011 09:46

shiv wrote: 4) With an inability to seamlessly network with other aircraft, the F-22 is not quite 5th generation. A 3-legged lion?

All it requires is an Avionics upgrade. Note that they are not planning to manufacture new., but they will still operate some 120 or so aircraft and study them. I am sure in a year or two another "next generation" fighter aircraft contest will be announced and valuable lessons learnt from the current F-22 will be applied to the "next generation" aircraft. So what if the "next generation" aircraft will end up looking like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_SR-71_Blackbird

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 25 Jan 2011 09:57

indranilroy wrote: However, they are working on mitigating this.

Indranilroy saab - I appreciate your robust defence of the F-22s advertised shortcomings. I wish more Indians (not you personally) would do that for India designed products. As a nation we are very understanding about others' actions and problems. That is totally unique.

The F-22 is 20 years ahead of anyone else. But if it cannot network seamlessly - it falls short of one of the definitions of "5th gen". Maybe 4.78 gen?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 25 Jan 2011 10:05

This is F-ing the catch-22... if it communicates, it reveals its stealth. If it remains stealthy, it can't communicate. Perhaps the only way it could do is via satellites on a super duper high bandwidth channel. Even then, it would have to do some burst mode communications for itself not to reveal.

So, eventually, when it is totally stealthy, it is as good as "3 legged bison".

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 25 Jan 2011 10:13

Shiv saar, let go of the saab for me, I am much much younger to you (meant in a very respectful way).

1. I agree I have a soft corner for the F-22.
2. Network seemlessly with what was a very big question when the F-22 was being developed.
3. I have tried in general to stay as objective as I possibly could.
4. Most importantly my defense of Indian products on topics that I know would be way-way-way more vehement.

disha · Post by **disha** » 25 Jan 2011 10:15

shiv wrote:The F-22 is 20 years ahead of anyone else. But if it cannot network seamlessly - it falls short of one of the definitions of "5th gen". Maybe 4.78 gen?

Sorry to jump in between saar - just will point and leave., but is it F-22's fault that it is "ahead of others" existing in the Khan inventory and the others not able to communicate to it or is it the others fault going around with obsolete hardware?

Also this entire 5th generation maya is like American dollars. Defined by the khan, certified by the khan and hence adherable only by the Khan. Rest are all 4.x or 3.x or 2.x generations ...

Note: I am still searching for the article where they were planning to defeat the J-20 by putting more advanced radars on the Shornets. Now which gen the Shornet will fall into? 4.131313....?

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 25 Jan 2011 10:25

disha wrote:
Note: I am still searching for the article where they were planning to defeat the J-20 by putting more advanced radars on the Shornets. Now which gen the Shornet will fall into? 4.131313....?

Not shornets, F-15s. I had posted it in the International Aerospace thread.

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 6#p1013026

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 25 Jan 2011 10:34

SaiK wrote:This is F-ing the catch-22... if it communicates, it reveals its stealth. If it remains stealthy, it can't communicate. Perhaps the only way it could do is via satellites on a super duper high bandwidth channel. Even then, it would have to do some burst mode communications for itself not to reveal.

So, eventually, when it is totally stealthy, it is as good as "3 legged bison".

They communicate through the AESA at 548 Mbps and receive it at 1 Gbps. Others do it at 1Mbps.

To avoid detection they hop frequencies at more than 1000 every second.

However, I don't know if these are encrypted. I know they were not for the drones that Khan were using Afghanistan. But then data transferred from drones is at a much higher rate. Would like to know more about this.

For popcorn

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 25 Jan 2011 14:06

indranilroy wrote:Shiv saar, let go of the saab for me, I am much much younger to you (meant in a very respectful way).

Age is not the issue. English is a hopeless language in its utter inability to communicate politeness in written text in the absence of sentences that use "please". Both "thank you" and "excuse me" are used in rude/impolite messages. I bet my wrinkled old ass that forum communication in Sanskrit would have led to fewer flamewars and misunderstandings. Using expressions like sir, saar, ji, garu and saab are an essential part of polite social communication in India and are actively unlearnt when one communicates in the west - to the detriment of written communication. Macaulay's ghost. I think too many forum posts are wasted asking people not to say "ji" and "sir" like kids who get upset when they are called "uncle" for the first time.

Sorry OT.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 25 Jan 2011 18:03

well all they need to do is add a sdre communication box.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 25 Jan 2011 18:12

shiv wrote:
indranilroy wrote:Shiv saar, let go of the saab for me, I am much much younger to you (meant in a very respectful way).
Age is not the issue. English is a hopeless language in its utter inability to communicate politeness in written text in the absence of sentences that use "please". Both "thank you" and "excuse me" are used in rude/impolite messages. I bet my wrinkled old ass that forum communication in Sanskrit would have led to fewer flamewars and misunderstandings. Using expressions like sir, saar, ji, garu and saab are an essential part of polite social communication in India and are actively unlearnt when one communicates in the west - to the detriment of written communication. Macaulay's ghost. I think too many forum posts are wasted asking people not to say "ji" and "sir" like kids who get upset when they are called "uncle" for the first time.

Sorry OT.

I think too many forum posts are wasted asking people not to say "ji" and "sir" like kids who get upset when they are called "uncle" for the first time.

You see, all of us want to be young at your expense by asking you not to call us saar! You are missing the plot.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 29 Jan 2011 06:58

http://en.rian.ru/analysis/20110128/162357069.html
pak-fa for bra-seal.

sumshyam · Post by **sumshyam** » 29 Jan 2011 08:08

I am a bit confused.....but let it be here...!

India not keen on US jet ,Will work on own 5-Gen fighter project with Russia,

Interestingly, the comments came during a function where an aggressive sales pitch was made for India to select either the American F/A-18 `Super Hornet’ ( Boeing) or F-16 `Falcon’ ( Lockheed Martin) over their European rivals in the ongoing IAF‘s medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) contest.

Added Later:: About where to post it

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 29 Jan 2011 09:18

Self deleted

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 31 Jan 2011 06:18

Anniversary of PAK FA First Flight Is 29 January .

wow/royfc:

The airplane is being developed based on the PAK FA in accordance with the technical requirements presented by the Indian side.

mmm