Indo-UK: News & Discussion

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 17 Jan 2011 17:57

In the season of forgiveness demands, a personal anecdote..In 1997, I got an invite to a tea-reception hosted by the British Council in the honour of the Queen who was visiting (I think it was a gathering of all so-called " scholars" certified by Oxbridge in various, generally useless, things)...I was a young collegian, and was totally swept away by the tide of criticism around the Royal Couple's refusal to "apologise" for Jallianwalla...To put oil to fire, the Queen's husband ("a lowly uneducated greek sailor", as Mani Shankar Aiyar put it) made some stupid remarks about the casualties there...I was appalled and agitated just like most of my classmates at that time, and almost didnt go, but a friend who was also invited pulled me to the reception...There, we had a comprehensive briefing session before the Queen's arrival on "etiquette" - one of the things we were told waas that we are to only address her as "Your Majesty"...I was pretty peeved ("she's not "my majesty") and decided not to do anything like that, adn in fact make a "statement" of some sort...So the Queen arrived and made the rounds...Then she came to the group I was part of, and started chatting on various things, mostly casual...Soemhow I got chatting up with her for a couple of minutes, and in the middle, blurted out "right ma'am" in response to an overservation by her...There was a bit of a stunned silence from her, and her flunkies around didnt look amused..But to her credit, she didnt flinch or anything, but continued conversing...I thought I "put the Queen in her place" in India!

To be honest in hindsight, it was probbaly stupid of me...There are things about the British empire that have merits, and lots that are extremely "unbritish", as Dadabhai Naoroji wrote...But the "revenge" of India is already happening...You just got to see around the various millions of ways it is....

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 17 Jan 2011 19:53

@Sanku and RajeshA: I don't think we are saying something radically different. First, you have to figure out what we could have done differently and make sure that we are not doing the same thing which will get the same result.

Nations don't and (should not) forget or forgive. This applies to the Brits, the Mughals and assorted invaders.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 17 Jan 2011 20:41

Thanks for the clarification Cosmo_R

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Jan 2011 21:11

uk wants diplomatic immunity for wife beater verma revoked. india says no and I think rightly so - its just a short step from here to demanding the same for indian ministers and diplomats accused of 'human rights abuses' by UK based terrorists and 'dissidents'.

ravar · Post by **ravar** » 17 Jan 2011 21:14

Christopher Sidor wrote: In our Hindu mythology, there was durodhana, who could not forget or forgive a slight from drupadi or overlook the behavior of over-bearing Son of Kunti, bheema. This lead to the 18 day massacre at kurkshethra. And the saddest part was, Durodhana had to watch all the people he loved, his brothers, his best friend karna, his great-great-grandfather, his sons, etc die in front of his eyes. After the 18th day, he himself confessed to Son of Ganga, Bhisma, "What will I do by winning now? All the people who would have been happy seeing me rule are gone."

Now that you bring Hindu ‘mythology’ (btw, there is nothing mythical about Mahabharata, since it is a ‘Itihasa’- in Samskrit meaning ‘this was what happened’ or ‘history’ in short) to this debate. Pray Sir, what did the dear Lord ask Arjuna to do when the latter became weak-kneed on seeing his near and dear before the battle? He asked him to fight against ‘adharma’ even if it entailed loss of x,y,z etc etc…(rider- Lord Krishna concludes Bhagavad Gita by saying - “Now that I have thrown light on the different aspects, you decide whether to fight or not, on your own discretion.” So, anyone who takes BG to be a war-mongering treatise is headed for dismay) And fight in what sense? Fight without hatred. Ever heard of that? This is truly an Indic concept. A Yogi warrior! A warrior who is always Centred; not swayed by ego nor personal likes or dislikes, but fighting for the sake of justice. A fight not because of personal hurt but because dharma has to be established. There was a grievous injustice meted out against the Pandavas and the war was all about ensuring ‘dharma’ (loosely translated to justice in English).
In short, instead of highlighting Duryodhana, who was the embodiment of hatred, try to see the goodness in being a Arjuna, who can love and also ensure justice, all at the same time. And no, I am not advocating war. Poets and philosophers extol ‘poetic justice’ to be meted out to villains, their works exalt the virtues of love and of a heart free from hatred as well!

Hatred is a poison. It is at par with Anger as one of the worse vices to hold on. It is a poison which clouds judgment and has the potential to kill. This is happening now. Just because of Churchill we are ranting against Britishers and Britain. And why because a few Britishers responding to a poll think that Churchill was one of their most influential Prime Ministers. Here is the deal, just because Britishers say so, does not make it so

I agree that hatred is poison et al.. I do not have nor am I advocating hatred against anyone. Now, think from the perspective of establishing justice, probably you might get a better perspective. No, I am not ranting here about Britishers and Britain. I would have ‘ranted’ against anyone doing injustice, for that matter. And no, I am not even responding because a few Britishers think something about a poll which means gobbledygook to me. I am responding because a nation was torn apart with the resultant death of around 3 million innocent people due to hunger, for goddsake, that was preventable; due to the downright racist, dogmatic attitude of an individual who was supposed to and had the wherewithal to prevent it! That for me is gross injustice (without highlighting much on the ‘divide and rule’ policy in the sub-continent; after half a century, the evil bird has come home to roost on Britain’s own backyard)!

The action plan to get justice would be- to get included in the current history books in the curriculum of both Britain and India, (as Nazi atrocities are taught currently to all German students, lest history should repeat) the ‘missing’ facts with particular reference to ‘the famine’ and the devious ‘divide and rule’ policy. Yes, this way, I would like to see current and future generations of British learn from their mistakes so that the righteous among them and the clever among Indians would avoid it in future. I would also like to see a financial compensation for the atrocities commensurate with the crimes committed (after all, the West shows us the beacon in the process of war/human rights abuse- compensation, doesn’t it?) since without it, all this talk of ‘forgive and forget’ is just hot air.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 17 Jan 2011 21:23

Singha wrote:uk wants diplomatic immunity for wife beater verma revoked. india says no and I think rightly so - its just a short step from here to demanding the same for indian ministers and diplomats accused of 'human rights abuses' by UK based terrorists and 'dissidents'.

the UK ambassador/HC can also receive a summons for genocide charges...
living relatives of churchill, dyer, napier... etc likewise

pgbhat · Post by **pgbhat** » 18 Jan 2011 00:25

UK questions India envoy immunity

Britain has asked India to waive diplomatic immunity for a senior diplomat who has been recalled to Delhi over reports he assaulted his wife.

Mr Verma's wife, Paromita, has remained in the UK with the couple's five-year-old son and is applying for leave to remain in the UK on humanitarian grounds, according to Britain's Mail on Sunday newspaper.

She was reportedly found with a bleeding nose after police were called to the couple's Golders Green home.

The domestic row reportedly started when the envoy found a Christmas tree in the house that had been given to them by one of his wife's relatives.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 18 Jan 2011 01:26

Singha wrote:uk wants diplomatic immunity for wife beater verma revoked. india says no and I think rightly so - its just a short step from here to demanding the same for indian ministers and diplomats accused of 'human rights abuses' by UK based terrorists and 'dissidents'.

Not just that.

UK must be shown a big middle finger! Given, beating a woman is inexcusable, but both man and woman are Indians, residing in UK as if they were back in India, because that is what an Embassy is, and the crime has been committed within India's diplomatic community. There is no basis for UK to even make the request seriously. This is another propaganda scheme to show Indians as people who abuse women, and the Indian Government, which does not allow such abusers to be prosecuted.

I don't mind, India calling back the diplomat and throwing him into prison, but no way should any requests from UK be entertained on this.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 18 Jan 2011 02:41

Christopher Sidor wrote: Hatred is a poison. It is at par with Anger as one of the worse vices to hold on. It is a poison which clouds judgment and has the potential to kill. This is happening now. Just because of Churchill we are ranting against Britishers and Britain. And why because a few Britishers responding to a poll think that Churchill was one of their most influential Prime Ministers. Here is the deal, just because Britishers say so, does not make it so.

I know hatred is like poison and we should not hate anyone. That is exactly what Gandhiji advised Britishers when they faced with fascist Hitler. I wish British govt of that time listened to him and made 'peace' with Hitler.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 18 Jan 2011 12:19

David "Milli-Bond" and his secret torture arrangements with the Bangladeshi govt. of the time.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/ja ... ure-centre

UK linked to notorious Bangladesh torture centreExclusive British authorities pressed for information while men were held at secret interrogation centre where inmates are known to have died under torture, Guardian investigation reveals

Ian Cobain, and Fariha Karim in Dhaka guardian.co.uk, Monday 17 January 2011

The headquarters of the Rapid Action Battalion in Uttara. Photograph: Shahidul Alam for the Guardian UK authorities passed information about British nationals to notorious Bangladeshi intelligence agencies and police units, then pressed for information while the men were being held at a secret interrogation centre where inmates are known to have died under torture.

A Guardian investigation into counter-terrorism co-operation between the UK and Bangladesh has revealed a detailed picture of the last Labour government's reliance on overseas intelligence agencies that were known to use torture.

Meetings and exchanges of information took place between British and Bangladeshi officials in an effort to protect the UK from attacks that might be fomented in Bangladesh, according to sources in both countries.

The likelihood that a number of suspects would be tortured as a result of the meetings went unmentioned, according to the sources. Subsequently, more than a dozen men of dual British-Bangladeshi nationality were placed under investigation, and at least some suffered horrific abuse from the Bangladeshi authorities.

At one point Jacqui Smith, then home secretary, flew to Dhaka for face-to-face meetings with senior officials from one agency, the Directorate-General of Forces Intelligence (DGFI), whose use of torture had been the subject of a detailed report by Human Rights Watch, the New York-based NGO, less than eight weeks earlier. Seven months before the visit, a report prepared by Smith's own department had documented the widespread concern about the routine use of torture in Bangladesh. Smith spoke publicly during the visit about the dangers that could be posed by dual nationals; privately, according to a senior DGFI counter-terrorism officer, she urged that the agency investigate a number of individuals about whom the British were suspicious.

In September it emerged that in recent years MI5 and MI6 have always asked the home secretary or foreign secretary for permission before conducting any information exchange where there was a risk of an individual being tortured. Smith, her successor Alan Johnson and David Miliband, the foreign secretary during the period of the joint UK-Bangladeshi counter-terrorism campaign, have declined to answer questions about the matter.

A number of the British suspects were taken to the secret interrogation centre, known as the Task Force for Interrogation cell (TFI). The location of the TFI and the methods employed by those who work there became clear during the Guardian investigation, with both former inmates and intelligence officials speaking out about its operations.

Faisal Mostafa, from Manchester, was taken to the TFI after Smith's visit to Dhaka and is alleged to have been forced to stand upright for the first six days of his incarceration, with his wrists shackled to bars above his head. He is then alleged to have then been beaten and subjected to electric shocks while being questioned about Bangladeshi associates. At the point at which he was to be questioned about his associates and activities in the UK, he is said to have been blindfolded and strapped to a chair while a drill was slowly driven into his right shoulder and hip.

This abuse during questioning about the UK is said to have been repeated on a number of occasions. The Guardian has seen evidence that supports the allegation that he was tortured in this manner. The report prepared by Smith's own department povides warning that the paramilitary police unit that seized this man used precisely this method of torture.

Matiur Rahman, deputy chief of operations at the Rapid Action Battalion (RAB), the police unit that detained the man, said: "The British were interested in him for some time. There was an assumption he was part of an international network. They gave information to us, and we gave information to them."

After being tortured for several weeks the man spent almost a year in jail before being freed on bail and allowed to return to the UK.

A second man, Gulam Mustafa, from Birmingham, was being held in Bangladesh during Smith's visit, and was released before being held a second time last April. He says he was tortured on both occasions while being questioned about associates in the UK, with his interrogators beating him, subjecting him to electric shocks and crushing his knees. He was eventually transferred to a prison hospital, where he was treated for injuries suffered he suffered during interrogation.Bangladeshi police officers who arrested him the second time say his first arrest had been at the request of MI6. "When we received the file from his first arrest from RAB, it was marked 'MI6 File'," said one senior detective. He added that when this man was arrested for the second time, officials from the British high commission in Dhaka contacted police and asked to be debriefed on the results of his interrogation. "They wanted maximum information." he said.

A third man, Jamil Rahman, from Swansea, is suing the Home Office, alleging that MI5 was complicit in his torture after he was arrested in 2005 and allegedly tortured in between interrogation by two British intelligence officers.

Smith said she would not answer questions "about the timings of any specific authorisations she may or may not have given the security service". She declined to say whether she accepted that individuals would be at risk of torture when she asked the Bangladeshi authorities to investigate them. Johnson refused to answer any questions about the matter.

Miliband failed to answer a series of questions about dual nationals investigated in Bangladesh, and about any role he played in granting permission for MI6 to be involved in their cases. A spokeswoman issued a statement on his behalf which said that there were no Foreign Office papers showing that ministers were asked to sanction the arrest of Faisal Mostafa or Gulam Mustafa. She added: "David would never ever sanction torture and it is completely wrong to suggest, imply, or leave a shadow of a doubt otherwise. The UK has detailed procedures that uphold the moral and legal conduct of the intelligence agencies and those responsible for them. When David was Foreign Secretary he followed them scrupulously."

The Foreign Office said both Mostafa and Mustafa had been offered consular assistance, and reiterated the government's position on torture. "The government have made absolutely clear in the Coalition's Programme for Government that we will never condone the use of torture," a spokesman said. "We take all allegations of torture and mistreatment very seriously, and - where we have permission to do so from the individual concerned - raise them with the relevant authorities. Our security cooperation with other countries is consistent with our laws and values."

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 18 Jan 2011 12:21

More evidence of lies from Tony B.Liar on Iraq.

Tony Blair 'misled' Commons over legal advice on war in Iraq

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/8265001 ... -Iraq.html

Tony Blair misled Parliament by claiming that Britain could legally attack Iraq in the face of United Nations opposition despite being given clear advice to the contrary, new evidence suggests.

Vikas · Post by **Vikas** » 18 Jan 2011 14:18

Singha wrote:uk wants diplomatic immunity for wife beater verma revoked. india says no and I think rightly so - its just a short step from here to demanding the same for indian ministers and diplomats accused of 'human rights abuses' by UK based terrorists and 'dissidents'.

Exactly and now onwards any Brit diplomat found indulging in any criminal activity would be asked to stand trial in the host country and thrown behind the bars if found guilty. This would be the policy of His majesties Govt.

After all practice what you preach Sarkar-e-Bartania:)

paramu · Post by **paramu** » 19 Jan 2011 06:37

Regarding forgiving Churchill,

Your forgive when other person recognize the crime/mistake, apologize and/or ask for forgiveness.

If somebody kills your dad, and you just decide to fogive him without having a trial, debate or discussion about that incident only reflects your foolishness. You don't really have to take take physical revenge.

Ambar · Post by **Ambar** » 20 Jan 2011 05:43

Singha wrote:uk wants diplomatic immunity for wife beater verma revoked. india says no and I think rightly so - its just a short step from here to demanding the same for indian ministers and diplomats accused of 'human rights abuses' by UK based terrorists and 'dissidents'.

Maybe. But i am disappointed that after such a high profile incident GoI is yet to recall and replace Verma. We cannot have a wife-beating thug represent our nation.

Raghavendra · Post by **Raghavendra** » 20 Jan 2011 10:33

^You are misinformed

The Indian high commission in London has issued a blow-by-blow account on the alleged wife-bashing by its senior diplomat Anil Verma, who has been transfered back to India, saying the incident was "provoked" by a row over a Christmas tree gift.

Taking a tough stand on domestic violence, the mission in a statement said, "There is no question of condoning domestic violence which is totally unacceptable. Once the officer returns to India, the matter will be thoroughly investigated and acted upon appropriately."

Noting that the ministry of external affairs has taken a serious view in the matter, it said, "the laws of the land would take care of any acts that need to be taken care of, consequent to the inquiry."

Verma, a senior IAS officer of West Bengal cadre, joined the high commission as minister (economic), ranking number three in the mission, on August 24, 2009.

Narrating the sequence of events, the five-page statement said, "apparently, the incident was provoked by a gift (a Christmas tree) made by Verma's aunt (her mother's sister who is married to Robert Chase and lives near their house) to their son.

"This was objected to by Verma and led to an altercation."

According to the statement, Verma had offered to buy a Christmas tree for their son. However, Verma's wife Paromita had said that since they already had a tree from the previous year, they did not need to buy one.

Subsequently, when a Christmas tree was gifted by Mrs Chase, Verma said that he felt humiliated.

He wanted to remove the tree from the house. When he went upstairs to do this, Paromita followed him and tried to prevent him from doing so.

In the scuffle that followed, she was injured.

According to Verma, "Mrs Verma was hit on the face when he was trying to remove the Christmas tree from the house and she was trying to forcibly prevent him from doing so. According to Mrs Verma, she was slapped. This resulted in bleeding from her nose due to damage to tissues in the nose.

"Mrs Verma ran out of her house and her neighbours called the police and an ambulance. The police recorded Mrs Verma's statement (which was also signed by her) after which Mrs Verma was taken by the ambulance to the Hospital and returned to her residence the same day."

The high commission officials visited Verma's residence on December 13, 2010, to enquire about the incident and Mrs Verma's welfare.

At no point was Mrs Verma berated or threatened by the high commission officials, the statement said.

Mrs Verma, while expressing dissatisfaction with the state of affairs in her marriage, said that her continued stay in the UK was important from the point of view of treatment of her younger son (who was at that time bed-ridden and was being tutored at home by a visiting teacher).

She requested that, "Verma should be firmly spoken to and should be advised to go in for counselling.Mrs Verma also indicated that she would like to sort out matters with her husband and would also go with him for counselling.

"Verma was spoken to in appropriate terms and told that the use of force was totally unacceptable and that under no circumstances or provocation should this recur. Were this to happen again, it would be untenable.

"In his response, Verma said that this was the first time such an incident had happened and he promised that it would not recur. He also agreed to go for counselling along with Mrs Verma.

"Both Mr and Mrs Verma were suitably told that as diplomats, they were expected to conduct themselves with dignity and decorum. The high commission's concerns over such incidents notwithstanding, the differences between Mr and Mrs Verma would basically have to be sorted out by the two themselves."

In the circumstances, it was decided that the couple be given a chance to amicably sort out their differences.

According to the statement, "On January 3, 2011, Verma formally informed the high commission that he was being subjected to harassment and tension by his wife, mother-in-law and Mr and Mrs Chase.

He was also being repeatedly taunted that he was a "criminal".

On account of this, Verma said that he was finding it difficult to live at his official residence as he was afraid that another incident might take place and he wanted to move out at the earliest.

High commission officials visited Verma's residence in the evening of January 3, 2011.

In the evening of January 3, 2011, Verma moved out of his official residence into a hotel. His wife and other members of the family continued to stay at the official residence.

On January 5, 2011, Verma informed the high commission that his wife and other members of the family were no longer contactable at his official residence and that Mrs Verma was not responding to his telephone calls.

The high commission also tried to establish contact with Mrs Verma but without success.

As Verma did not have the keys to his house and he needed to access it, he went to his residence on January 6, 2011, along with a high commission official, to get the locks changed.

At the request of the UK foreign and commonwealth office (FCO), the high commission officials met officials of the protocol directorate of the FCO on January 10, 2011.

The high commission officials emphasised that the incident was unfortunate and that the high commission was taking appropriate steps in its wake.

On January 13, 2011, FCO wrote to the high commission requesting for waiver of Verma's diplomatic immunity.

The note further stated that failure to waive Verma's immunity will result in an immediate request for Verma and his dependents to be withdrawn from the UK.

On January 17, 2011, the high commission informed the FCO through a Note Verbale that a decision has been taken by the government of India to transfer Anil Verma and his family to India.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 20 Jan 2011 11:14

Look,"revenge is a dish best eaten cold",is the old saying.Churchill and men of his generation steeped in the culture of imperialism and the "knowledge" that "God is an Englishman" are now history.Similarly in our country those who want to put the clock back to pre-Partition days are missing the point.Time is a stream that forever flows on and one cannot recapture it."Carpe diem"-seize the day should be our motto.We can and must learn form the mistakes of history.Being boorish in behaviour to an old foe is not just cricket.For centuries India and its people have been lauded for their hospitality and warmth of heart and independent India and its people must display that character of yore that distinguished the land and its people.

The best "revenge" if it could be considered so is the fact that some of the best known companies of Britain are now in Indian hands like JLR.Mr.Mittal has also done his bit in imprinting in the minds of the world the rise of India in the post-colonial era.The wheel is turning full circle.3 decades ago,on a trip to the UK observing the rise of the Indian community,much more humbly then but very solidly and listening to my Jewish friends who explained to me how they rose to eminence in Blighty too,it was clear to me that if the Indian community continued to work hard and silently allow the tree to bear fruit ,one day Britain would be the "jewel" in India's crown! Across the board Indians are being lauded not just in business but also in the arts.Shekhar Kapoor's Elizabethan films have been well received,so too has sculptor Anish Kapoor (the surname getting to be as well known as Patel!).The Indian diaspora's achievements are too well known to be listed here in full,therefore today we must view our relationship with Britain as equal partners,a nation with whom centuries of intermingling historically should allow us to use the better aspects of the understanding between the two for the mutual betterment of both for the future,especially so since we have so many of the Indian diaspora living in Britain as British citizens.

Fortunately,the Indian diaspora has not allowed the baggage of history to cloud its character in Blighty,unlike that displayed by many immigrants from the neighbourhood.We have not spread the hatred of terrorism like many of the Paki fundamentalists,or committed acts and plots of terror as well as they have.Neither have we misused our refugee status as the Eelamists have done and dipped our hands deep into the underworld of slime and crime.The Indian diaspora and the nation have great opportunities in joining hands with Britain for the future.Just days ago the Chinese,who have not forgotten the "Opium Wars" ,were in Britain in strength wooing the British and signing deals in Scotland for renewable energy technology.Their pragmatism and vision of where they want their country to go-to lead the world, must be lauded for their vision and determination to succeed.On our part timidity by the GOI and a "living in the past" mentality have to be discarded if we are to at least keep pace with the Chinese let alone outdistance them!

Here's food for thought and what is afflicting certain immigrants from the sub-continent!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstop ... slims.html

Tory chief Baroness Warsi attacks 'bigotry' against Muslims
Prejudice against Muslims has become widespread and socially acceptable in Britain because Islamophobia has “passed the dinner-table test” and is seen as normal and uncontroversial, Baroness Warsi claims.

Xcpts:

Islamophobia has “passed the dinner-table test” and is seen by many as normal and uncontroversial, Baroness Warsi will say in a speech on Thursday.

The minister without portfolio will also warn that describing Muslims as either “moderate” or “extremist” fosters growing prejudice.

Lady Warsi, the first Muslim woman to attend Cabinet, has pledged to use her position to wage an “ongoing battle against bigotry”.

Her comments are the most high-profile intervention in Britain’s religious debate by any member of David Cameron’s government.

They also confirm the Coalition’s determination to depart from its Labour predecessor’s policy of keeping out of issues of faith.

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Baroness Warsi was 'pressured' to skip France veil ban debate19 Jan 2011

Lady Warsi will use a speech at the University of Leicester to attack what she sees as growing religious intolerance in the country, especially towards followers of Islam.

A recent study estimated there are now around 2.9 million Muslims in Britain, up from 1.6 million in 2001.

Some religious and social commentators have suggested that growth in numbers gives rise to legitimate concerns, asking whether strict adherence to the faith is compatible with the values of Western democracies.

Some Christian leaders have also said that Britain has become less tolerant of their faith during the same period.

In response, Lady Warsi will blame “the patronising, superficial way faith is discussed in certain quarters, including the media”. The peer will describe how prejudice against Muslims has grown along with their numbers, partly because of the way they are often portrayed.

The notion that all followers of Islam can be described either as “moderate” or “extremist” can fuel misunderstanding and intolerance, she will say.

“It’s not a big leap of imagination to predict where the talk of 'moderate’ Muslims leads; in the factory, where they’ve just hired a Muslim worker, the boss says to his employees: 'Not to worry, he’s only fairly Muslim’.

“In the school, the kids say: 'The family next door are Muslim but they’re not too bad’.

“And in the road, as a woman walks past wearing a burka, the passers-by think: 'That woman’s either oppressed or is making a political statement’.”

A decade of growth in the British Muslim population also saw the first al-Qaeda attacks on British soil and Lady Warsi will address the issue of terrorism and extremism.

Terrorist offences committed by a small number of Muslims must not be used to condemn all who follow the faith, she will insist.

But she will also suggest that some Muslim communities must do more to make clear to extremists that their beliefs and actions are not acceptable.

“Those who commit criminal acts of terrorism in our country need to be dealt with not just by the full force of the law,” she will say.

“They also should face social rejection and alienation across society and their acts must not be used as an opportunity to tar all Muslims.”

Her call echoes Mr Cameron’s New Year message, in which the Prime Minister asked why the country was “allowing” the continuing radicalisation of young British Muslims.

Lady Warsi will also reveal that she raised the issue of Islamophobia with the Pope when he visited Britain last year, urging him to “create a better understanding between Europe and its Muslim citizens.”

Despite her warnings, she will recognise that Britain has a long history of tolerance and diversity.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 20 Jan 2011 11:29

^^^

I guess, the only thing that would satisfy people like me, is if Britain is merged into India as a state of the Indian Union, the Islamists are thrown out, and the monarchy is done away with.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 20 Jan 2011 11:37

Philip wrote:The best "revenge" if it could be considered so is the fact that some of the best known companies of Britain are now in Indian hands like JLR.Mr.Mittal has also done his bit in imprinting in the minds of the world the rise of India in the post-colonial era.

Absolutely right..The "revenge" is already happening..An Indian group (Tata) is the LARGEST manufacturing employer in UK now..One of the two brightest banks in the City - Standard Chartered has an India listing today an India contributes its single largest profit pool..The other, HSBC is rapidly catching up on its India profile...David Cameron today has to make a pilgrimage to India as a symbol of his "new foreign policy"...In 3-4 years time, in fact earlier, when India grows larger than UK in nominal GDP terms, this power will only grow...these are bigger symbols of vengeance than anything else..

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 20 Jan 2011 11:39

RajeshA wrote:^^^

I guess, the only thing that would satisfy people like me, is if Britain is merged into India as a state of the Indian Union, the Islamists are thrown out, and the monarchy is done away with.

Yes an Indian outpost in that part of world. Both de jure and de facto. Yes that may be acceptable.

Ambar · Post by **Ambar** » 20 Jan 2011 11:52

Raghavendra wrote:^You are misinformed

I am glad to hear that he is being recalled. Whatever the domestic situation might have been, a physical altercation with his wife is indecorous to his position.

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 20 Jan 2011 11:56

The true revenge will be when average people of bharat living in better condition than more than average brits. (Tantamount to showing a middle finger)

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 20 Jan 2011 12:03

Murugan wrote:The true revenge will be when average people of bharat living in better condition than more than average brits. (Tantamount to showing a middle finger)

That could happen overnight if we had the power to recover what was stolen from us.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 20 Jan 2011 12:16

Murugan wrote:The true revenge will be when average people of bharat living in better condition than more than average brits. (Tantamount to showing a middle finger)

India's per-capita income in nominal dollar terms - ~1200
UK's PCI - ~ 35000

The avg Brit is 30 times better off than the avg Indian - the gap would be around 10 times in PPP terms...We have some way to go - the only way is to make oursleves better, richer, stronger...If I may, vengeance doesnt help in any of these objectives!

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Jan 2011 12:48

I would lay claim to the Isle of Skye and Isle of Durra with Philip saar as my co-warlord. there are things produced there of great value.

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 20 Jan 2011 15:13

somnath wrote:
Murugan wrote:The true revenge will be when average people of bharat living in better condition than more than average brits. (Tantamount to showing a middle finger)
India's per-capita income in nominal dollar terms - ~1200
UK's PCI - ~ 35000

The avg Brit is 30 times better off than the avg Indian - the gap would be around 10 times in PPP terms...We have some way to go - the only way is to make oursleves better, richer, stronger...If I may, vengeance doesnt help in any of these objectives!

Per capita income is not the scale to compare.

PPP will differ statewise.

Intitally we will compare england with Goa, Sikkim and then Gujarat. England is that tiny.

Chinmayanand · Post by **Chinmayanand** » 20 Jan 2011 17:38

holier than thou/tau/unkil

UK bars US pastor who threatened to burn Quran

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 20 Jan 2011 17:44

[quote="Murugan"]Per capita income is not the scale to compare.

PPP will differ statewise.

Intitally we will compare england with Goa, Sikkim and then Gujarat. England is that tiny.
[quote]

Goa: 1.4 million, sikkim: 0.5 million, Gujarat: 50 million, UK: 61 million...UK isnt THAT tiny..In PCI terms, Gujarat (which along with Mah is #1), would probably be about 1500-1600 dollars, ~ 2.75 times in PPP terms...Way behind UK...

There is a lot of angst about MMS's Oxford address - wonder how many people read the full text o it..

http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/nic/ ... speech.htm

There isnt much that is too exceptionable - Gandhi would probably have said the same thing, as would Tagore...

Hitesh · Post by **Hitesh** » 20 Jan 2011 19:33

Doesn't anyone think that Mrs. Verma was also culpable? She provoked the fight when she tried to restrain him with force.

I am not saying that wife beating is excusable but there are degrees and there are degrees. It is not wise to involve the authorities in every scuffle. Anyway, the authorities are now involved. I just hope that Mrs. Verma gets also sent back to India as well. She will should face the same consequences that her husband is facing. She should not be off the hook as well.

Hitesh · Post by **Hitesh** » 20 Jan 2011 19:37

Ambar wrote:
Singha wrote:uk wants diplomatic immunity for wife beater verma revoked. india says no and I think rightly so - its just a short step from here to demanding the same for indian ministers and diplomats accused of 'human rights abuses' by UK based terrorists and 'dissidents'.
Maybe. But i am disappointed that after such a high profile incident GoI is yet to recall and replace Verma. We cannot have a wife-beating thug represent our nation.

Be very careful how you characterize a husband as a "wife-beating thug" when you do not know the full details of the story. I was an legal intern at Miami-Dade State Attorney's Office in the Domestic Violence Unit and you will be surprised at the antics that the wives pull off. Most of the time, DV would not happen if one side wasn't provoked. It can take two to tango for a DV to occur. I found that in my experience, that it is wise to reserve your judgment until you get the full details and facts of the DV event before you start pointing fingers.

rohiths · Post by **rohiths** » 20 Jan 2011 19:39

Once the ponzi economy and North Sea oil runs out then we will see what the actual wealth of UKstan really is. Wait for 2020

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 20 Jan 2011 19:50

See, if I make $20000 a yr compared to an SDRE bloke that makes only $2000, I'm x10 richer. Right?

But what if I'm also some $22000 in debt and other bloke is some $1800 in debt only? Aaah, but I'll make up for it AND overtake the SDRE bloke within a year. Right?

But what if my debt load is growing faster than my income? (Can someone say 'ponzi' please?). And that of the SDRE bloke's is rising slower than his income growth only?

Bottomline: If I ignore costs (in this case, liabilities) then all my borrowings look like wealth only. Just that they're not. Only.

Having said all that, UKstan is richer and will likely be for generations to come, likely outlasting our lifetimes. However, that doesn't make UKstani crimes and their blatant denial/defence/justification of the same one iota right. Period.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 20 Jan 2011 20:00

^^^ Well, just as a perspective, UK's debt-to-GDP ratio is about 60%..India's is about 80%+ (depending on what you include and what you dont)...the reason why India can live with it is because of faster growth and favourable demographics, otherwise India's public debt levels are quite close to Greece!

And yes, liabilities are not costs - if you will, the cost of servicing the liabilities is...

On household debt, UK isnt nearly as badly off as the US...bulk of the houehold debt is mortgages, which would be par for any country that has gone through the cycles - Indian households too would have fairly high debt levels as we gradate to middle income status...

About injustices et al, well, I posted above - the revenge is already underway in multiple ways...If every past "sinner" is to be socially shunned, countries would soon run out of interlocutors!

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 20 Jan 2011 20:08

i wonder why we dont have the same anger towards iranians, or uzbeks, or kirgiz, or arabs?
all in the same boat no? (all have red hands or not?)

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 20 Jan 2011 20:18

^^^ Or Turks, or Portuguese...Or China and South Korea towards Japan, Vietnam towards US - historical sinners are many...

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 20 Jan 2011 20:36

Lalmohan wrote:i wonder why we dont have the same anger towards iranians, or uzbeks, or kirgiz, or arabs?
all in the same boat no? (all have red hands or not?)

Arabs tried but could hardly make a dent in India.

Uzbek/Kirgiz who?

Iranians? Mixed, Parsis are Iranians too. Not really 200 years of massive loot. One Nadir Shah (who wasnt really a Persian) etc.

Turko-Mongols there is plenty of anger against dont you think? However they dont have a nation worth anything today. No constant reminder of loot from India feathering the nests even today. Most of loot avenged by Maratha's and Sikh's.

Oh no the Albion have a special place all right.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 20 Jan 2011 21:09

sanku - all invaders plundered and looted and slaughtered
there is no difference

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 20 Jan 2011 22:49

Lalmohan wrote:i wonder why we dont have the same anger towards iranians, or uzbeks, or kirgiz, or arabs?
all in the same boat no? (all have red hands or not?)

Lalmohan wrote:sanku - all invaders plundered and looted and slaughtered. There is no difference

I think the reason, is probably because the Indic think of the Turko-Mongol as barbarians, out to take what they can and kill, as they know no better.

The anger against the British is because, we don't consider them simply barbaric, but rather as an advanced civilization which treated us so abhorrently, and in fact, never had to answer for their crimes. That is what hurts - Is it civilized to kill Indians? - 3 million of them through the famine alone, and many more during their rule.

No Indic really considers the Islamic hordes to be his equal in civilization, only superior in military tactics, arms and cohesion. For that, we hold only ourselves as culprits, we hold our warriors, our kshatriyas, as our culprits for they were total failures and traitors. So our response there would have to be one of strengthening ourselves militarily, organizationally, as well as strengthening our ideological periphery ideologically.

But in the case of the British, we feel attached to them as a civilized person is to another, so the crime sits far deeper. Any acknowledgement of acceptance of those crimes, is akin to accepting their narrative of ourselves as an inferior civilization, whose lives can be expended at will. So those who are responsible for the current world order and its various human rights institutions and that condescending BBC voice are let scot-free absolved of their historically crimes, allowed to give us sermons at the drop of a hat from everything from poverty to corruption to Kashmir. Somehow that doesn't sit well with me.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 20 Jan 2011 23:03

Lalmohan wrote:sanku - all invaders plundered and looted and slaughtered
there is no difference

But there IS. I have already outlined it. In short

1) Not all invaders succeeded, most were defeated.

2) Many we have already taken retribution against or clearly know as target num 1 for the same.

3) Some merged into India at the end, their loot stayed here.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 20 Jan 2011 23:26

sanku - all the invaders were assimilated or defeated, even the british
retribution was never taken out against anyone
even those who merged also took loot out - samarkand and baghdad are also built on indian loot
sorry, i don't see a difference
the only reason most of us froth about it is that it is within living memory whilst the others are not

rajesh - i don't make the distinction you illustrate either, it is illogical to me

i hold all invaders equally culpable, and yet i know that the wheels of history turn and interests and priorities change. without forgiving or forgetting, we can move on with doing what is right for the present dangers. i dont agree with your view that emotion must guide us. emotion only clouds judgement

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 20 Jan 2011 23:28

Lalmohan wrote: even those who merged also took loot out - samarkand and baghdad are also built on indian loot

sorry, i don't see a difference

Umm been to Samarkand or Baghdad recently!