J & K news and discussion

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 20 Jan 2011 21:01

BJP lost those two seats because they fielded the wrong candidate at the wrong seat. Dr. Nirmal Singh had good standing in Jammu and would have won Lok Sabha election comfortably. Advocate Leela Karan, leader of Amarnath Yatra Sangharsh Samiti probably had a better chance in Udhampur. But owing to some really stupid decision making on part of BJP, they were fielded in Udhampur and Jammu respectively instead of the other way around. At the very least, Dr. Nirmal Singh should have won in Jammu. Even Leela Karan would have fared well if he had not refused to get involved in politics in 2008. Many people who would have voted for BJP in Jammu didn't vote for him because they felt that he was not a man of his word.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 20 Jan 2011 21:04

Acharya wrote:The kashmir lobby has reached inside the UPA govt and it has started to buy off parties for its goal. This is well oiled money making transaction now.
The only way to break this nexus between media, secular leftist groups, political parties is to raise it to national level.

The level of conspiracy theories being spun is quite astounding - would seem as if GOI is about to give J&K away on a platter, and the Ekta yatra is a last line of defence..

Keeping aside the yatra, the other piece of ceterus paribus condition is people being "bought off" to compromise...Now last I checked, all the rich guys in India were standing in fawning attendance of Narendra Modi...How come therefore that the "secular leftists groups" are managing to outbid the right in a race to buy off the officialdom?

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 20 Jan 2011 21:06

Keep your partisan politics out of this. This is a national issue for the territorial integrity

Raghavendra · Post by **Raghavendra** » 20 Jan 2011 21:11

^
^
When commie birather's mind empties out of issues, bring name of modi. commies are so predictable

Appreciation of modi's good work is universal

http://www.zeenews.com/news681584.html

In arguably the most significant endorsement of Narendra Modi’s development led agenda in Gujarat, the new Darul Uloom vice-chancellor, Maulana Ghulam Mohammed Vastanvi, has said that "all communities" are flourishing in the state without any discrimination against the minorities.

Now commie birather please call vastanvi communal

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 20 Jan 2011 21:13

^^^What has this got to do with a value judgement of NArendra Modi?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Jan 2011 21:14

Raghavendra,
Its good for the silent others to know how you arrived at the conclusions. A four five sentence construct is all that is needed. And don't put smileys as it lessens the impact. Unless you really want it to.

Forum is for education too.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 20 Jan 2011 21:16

I think this is a waste of bandwidth. People who are not serious on this topic can go to other threads and do their childish partisan politics. Rest can join the real serious national issues here.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 20 Jan 2011 21:20

Acharya wrote:I think this is a waste of bandwidth. People who are not serious on this topic can go to other threads and do their childish partisan politics. Rest can join the real serious national issues here.

Maybe you can care to analyse the issue? For example when you say there is a conspiracy of pecuniary buy-outs by leftisst groups, media etc, do you have a source? Who is funding these guys? Who are being bought out? And how come the "right" is not able to play the same game of buy-outs, given their obvious monetary clout?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Jan 2011 21:50

From across the border.....
X-post...

Anindya wrote:Interesting report from NDTV - perhaps the main reason for all 5 UNSC veto powers visiting India in short succession - perhaps these discussions are still ongoing....

http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/news/i ... uri/188583

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 20 Jan 2011 21:59

Bakara didn't press him on "joint mechanism". Thats the key to the sell out. Self governance BS is there even now. What TSP wants is "joint mechanism" to extend to the valley. There is no way TSP would have agreed to the "deal" without this.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 20 Jan 2011 22:03

Both BJP and Omar have backed themselves in a corner. Omar is saying he won't allow the flag hoisting. I'd like to see who comes out ahead. I say if India looses Omar to the Paki camp, so be it. His support to India was at best wobbly. No point India relying on someone who is on life support. Let the true colors come, and take J&K by the scuff of its neck.

Every chaotics situation offers an opprtunity. If this latest circus turns out to be BJP Vs Separatists, and the issue of accension to Inia takes a back seat, maybe there is a sliver lining. In other words, the compromise is both sides back down eventually, but the question of secession is taken out of the equation.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Jan 2011 22:07

Lets see how things play out.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 20 Jan 2011 22:13

ramana wrote:Lets see how things play out.

It is not about how things play out - we have to make it the way we want it. Hindus should be able to worship in all the temples in the entire kashmir without any problem. Including POK region where many ancient temples are there.

Venkarl · Post by **Venkarl** » 20 Jan 2011 22:22

X-posting from India-US thread...

CRamS wrote:
Anindya wrote:Interesting report from NDTV - perhaps the main reason for all 5 UNSC veto powers visiting India in short succession - perhaps these discussions are still ongoing....

http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/news/i ... uri/188583
Bakara didn't press him on "joint mechanism". Thats the key to the sell out. Self governance BS is there even now. What TSP wants is "joint mechanism" to extend to the valley. There is no way TSP would have agreed to the "deal" without this.

What is a joint mechanism? Does it mean that Indians and Pakistanis(China) collaborate along with Kashmiri locals to Govern the area? if it is so..Kashmiris can expect a stampede of regional and international powers over their aspirations and emotions..

and does this Governing thing include Ladakh and Jammu as well or just the Valley and PoK{CoK??}?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Jan 2011 22:24

That thought has to come to a majority for it to become a reality.

---
If the flag hoisting is such a non-issue and a political stunt, why is it being opposed so vehmently? Especially by those who molly coddled and encouraged stone pelters?

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 20 Jan 2011 22:34

ramana wrote:That thought has to come to a majority for it to become a reality.

---

But we need the discussion here in BR. We need atleast 10 posters discussing the temples in Kashmir.

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 20 Jan 2011 22:46

Raghavendra wrote:^
^
When commie birather's mind empties out of issues, bring name of modi. commies are so predictable

Appreciation of modi's good work is universal

http://www.zeenews.com/news681584.html

In arguably the most significant endorsement of Narendra Modi’s development led agenda in Gujarat, the new Darul Uloom vice-chancellor, Maulana Ghulam Mohammed Vastanvi, has said that "all communities" are flourishing in the state without any discrimination against the minorities.

Now commie birather please call vastanvi communal

Commies are dead against anybody getting educated in the right sense. They are purveyors of feeding on poverty and distribution of poverty. Commies are interested in allowing indoctrination, under the guise of education. That's where education emphasis will end with commies. These merchants of poverty will be against what vastanvi stated.

Because what he has stated is very important in the sense get educated and not indoctrinated. This will loosen the grip of the purveyors of poverty and subsequently confine their ideology to dust bin where it belongs. Hence commies will be very afraid of that and also others who depend on the populace being stupid. That message is even important for J&K people.

menon s · Post by **menon s** » 20 Jan 2011 22:54

All i said was please do not rock the boat in the flimsy security situation in Kashmir! Pls help MoH! All ur bluster on nationalism will help many poor soldiers loose lives. If u do not care, im only sorry. BJP pranksters will get their votes and vacate the valley. Its the poor paramilitary and the army that has to face the music.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 20 Jan 2011 22:59

If the soldiers were asked, every house in entire 80 Sq Km of K valley would be flying tri-color and they would be themselves hoisting it.

I am sure they are really upset with BJP, they would have much more liked to fly the Indian flag themselves if not stopped by the allegiance to Indian Nation through GoI.

And no they do not worry about Geedad bhabhki, they know very well that they have already won the hearts and minds which can be won, and they dont care about traitors.

Chandragupta · Post by **Chandragupta** » 20 Jan 2011 23:06

menon s wrote:All i said was please do not rock the boat in the flimsy security situation in Kashmir! Pls help MoH! All ur bluster on nationalism will help many poor soldiers loose lives. If u do not care, im only sorry. BJP pranksters will get their votes and vacate the valley. Its the poor paramilitary and the army that has to face the music.

So you would blame the nationalists who want to hoist the national flag in INDIAN TERRITORY for the loss of life of our 'poor' soldiers? Seriously, why is this idiot still allowed to post here?

munna · Post by **munna** » 20 Jan 2011 23:07

menon s wrote:All i said was please do not rock the boat in the flimsy security situation in Kashmir! Pls help MoH! All ur bluster on nationalism will help many poor soldiers loose lives.

They will loose lives to whom and for what? After all it is BJP vs Splittists why are you conveniently inserting everything from Soviet Union to Rational Spaghetti Monster church in this battle? Or are you suggesting that Indian tricolor in Lal Chowk is not done and hence it will be ok and expected (of course by free thinking rationalists of your ilk) to have our soldiers attacked. You think hoisting the national flag is a justification for wanton violence and acts of terror by appeased populace?

Sirji you are on very thin ice defending acts of terror as a reaction (yes "reactionary" as written in lal kitab) to an act of civil political protest. Guaranteed and protected by our constitution.

If u do not care, im only sorry. BJP pranksters will get their votes and vacate the valley. Its the poor paramilitary and the army that has to face the music

The paramilitary and army you are so worried about came quite close to losing their immunity (AFSPA) against terrorists at the hands of same folks who oppose flag hoisting. The message is clear first they wanted the powers to prosecute the army at hands of a communal JKP and then they oppose national flag. The pranksters you talk about have a history of sacrificing life for assimilating J&K within the country. Stop worrying about the army and paramilitary in any case they saw the true colors of lal salam gang in 1962 no more needs to be said.

Raghavendra · Post by **Raghavendra** » 20 Jan 2011 23:23

JwalaMukhi wrote:
Raghavendra wrote:^
^
When commie birather's mind empties out of issues, bring name of modi. commies are so predictable

Appreciation of modi's good work is universal

http://www.zeenews.com/news681584.html

In arguably the most significant endorsement of Narendra Modi’s development led agenda in Gujarat, the new Darul Uloom vice-chancellor, Maulana Ghulam Mohammed Vastanvi, has said that "all communities" are flourishing in the state without any discrimination against the minorities.

Now commie birather please call vastanvi communal
Commies are dead against anybody getting educated in the right sense. They are purveyors of feeding on poverty and distribution of poverty. Commies are interested in allowing indoctrination, under the guise of education. That's where education emphasis will end with commies. These merchants of poverty will be against what vastanvi stated.

Because what he has stated is very important in the sense get educated and not indoctrinated. This will loosen the grip of the purveyors of poverty and subsequently confine their ideology to dust bin where it belongs. Hence commies will be very afraid of that and also others who depend on the populace being stupid. That message is even important for J&K people.

+1 you put it better than anyone could on the true nature of commies and their real agenda

Sri · Post by **Sri** » 20 Jan 2011 23:28

Posted the same in TSP thread too

Kasuri claims Kiyani approved Kashmir formula as ISI Chief

India and Pakistan's near resolution of the Kashmir dispute had the backing of Pakistan's present Army Chief General Kayani. This was the dramatic revelation made by Pakistan's former foreign Minister Khursheed Mehmood Kasuri.

Speaking to NDTV in New Delhi, Mr. Kasuri said both governments had almost signed off on a draft agreement on Kashmir. This agreement included self-governance on both sides of the Line of Control and a joint mechanism to oversee

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 20 Jan 2011 23:52

munna wrote:
They will loose lives to whom and for what? After all it is BJP vs Splittists why are you conveniently inserting everything from Soviet Union to Rational Spaghetti Monster church in this battle? Or are you suggesting that Indian tricolor in Lal Chowk is not done and hence it will be ok and expected (of course by free thinking rationalists of your ilk) to have our soldiers attacked. You think hoisting the national flag is a justification for wanton violence and acts of terror by appeased populace?

He He. This is ridicules now and we need to get serious here.
Nationalists are what the entire nation should be following.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 20 Jan 2011 23:55

^^^ there is a limit to being suicidal. Each time these guys say they were close it means we are losing more and more. What is the need for MMS and co to agree, I mean if he wants to really please unkil let him give them a 20-50 bil order and get away with it. My fervent plea to the powers that be is please desist from committing this grave mistake of self rule/joint rule. We know skill of Pakis when it comes to their self ruling abilities. We have already suffered enough due to Nehru's policy vis-a-vis Kashmir and yes please dont give the indian side of the story a chanakian spin, giving it a spin is akin to giving anasthesia before killing someone.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Jan 2011 23:56

Sri, from what Kasuri is saying the talks were hardly back channel Track Pee talks if the people involved were in power and holding office at that time! They were official and formal talks. Did Pranab Mukherjee tell the Parliament what was the agreement.

Is this surrender by stealth?

Is this why Omar Abdullah wants to prevent BJP from hoisting the national flag?

Why did the UPA not reveal the content to the Parliament?

Was MMS in the loop or this another Radia gate?

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 20 Jan 2011 23:59

menon s wrote:All i said was please do not rock the boat in the flimsy security situation in Kashmir! Pls help MoH! All ur bluster on nationalism will help many poor soldiers loose lives. If u do not care, im only sorry. BJP pranksters will get their votes and vacate the valley. Its the poor paramilitary and the army that has to face the music.

Oh, shove this sympathy for poor soliders up your musharaff. If the solders who voluntarily signed to protect the nation don't want to fight, then India might as well pack up and leave. Strong nations are not built bereft of sacrifice. Now don't come back with this crap about how easy it is to ask somebody else to make a sacrfice. Standard argument. Those soldiers if given the green signal will clean up every Paki scum bag and their sympathizers in the valley and hoist the tri color in every house.

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 21 Jan 2011 00:00

Every Indian rejoices that day and love the hoisting. it has a symbolic value. our lives will not change just by hoisting it. But there is something called India in every Indian's soul which swells with pride seeing our flag.

Indian should be able to hoist it anywhere in India including lal chowk or where ever whatever it is called unless it is a private property etc. within the parameters of the law.
Now the question of law and order which all the naysayers including GOI CON and OA etc and commies talk about--

Every Indian worth his salt will appreciate the flag hoisting particularly on important days like jan 26th or aug 15th. If he does not, than he does not pay respects to India as a nation, its constitution and its freedom. the question of his identity as an Indian becomes doubtful.
Now if law and order becomes an issue than the local body responsible for law and order should prosecute the people who oppose and create mischief with violence as treason. they are going against the ethos of the nation. they are not respecting India and its citizens.

Simple way of defusing this non existent problem is to join it whole heartedly. OA or G2 or someone in govt can hoist the flag and steal the thunder of all the hard work done by political party. What prevents them to do it.

National flag is for every Indian who believes in India. Anyone can hoist it or join it. There is no communal tones to it.Period. One cannot question one's parents as to why one is brought into the world.

whatever may happen, J&K will remain in India forever though troubles will be there. uber secularists are a part of the problem and not the solution.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 21 Jan 2011 00:02

ramana wrote:Sri from what Kasuri is saying the talks were hardly back channel Track pee talks if the people involved were in power and holding office at that time! They were official and formal talks. Why did the UPA not reveal the content to the Parliament? Was MMS in the loop or this another Radia gate?

You see some hint in the US af Pak talk video in US posted earlier.

Amb Shiffer kept saying that India does not want US to mediate. This means they are very active in this entire process since they are into af Pak. This may turn out to be another failure blamed on Halbrooke

Holbrooke died on December 13, 2010, from complications of the torn aorta.[49] Holbrooke's last words before being sedated for surgery, which have been clarified to have been a comical interchange with his doctor, were: "You've got to end this war in Afghanistan."
Frank Rich of New York Times wrote: "His premature death — while heroically bearing the crushing burdens of Afghanistan and Pakistan — is tragic in more ways than many Americans yet realize."

For the US , they need something to do a cut and run fast.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 21 Jan 2011 00:08

ramana wrote:Sri, from what Kasuri is saying the talks were hardly back channel Track Pee talks if the people involved were in power and holding office at that time! They were official and formal talks. Did Pranab Mukherjee tell the Parliament what was the agreement.

Is this surrender by stealth?

Is this why Omar Abdullah wants to prevent BJP from hoisting the national flag?

Why did the UPA not reveal the content to the Parliament?

Was MMS in the loop or this another Radia gate?

But CRamS told you what MMS was up to

.

This is why the flag hositing is such a sore point with MMS. Throws a spanner in his sell out plan.

The key I believe, and you heard it from me first, is the joint ownership of the valley couched in some diplomatic gobly gook to let MMS pull off a con job in the parliament. As a "South Asian", joint ownership comes naturally to him; its after all a "South Asian" formula, and the last thing on his mind is an Indian formula.

I first came across this articulated by Harvarad "South Asia" prof Sugata Gose at an Asia Societ gathering in NY city. In shudh, Oxford English, this Uncle Tom was laying out this plan to the nodding of his masters sitting next to him: Nick Platt, a couple of former US ambassadors, and some state dept farts. And believe me he said that joint love making will be accepted by all in "South Asia" except "Hindu nationalists". With BJP embarking on this flag hoisting exposing MMS's sell out, his prescience, however sinister, is right on the money.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 21 Jan 2011 00:16

CRamS wrote: And believe me he said that joint love making will be accepted by all in "South Asia" except "Hindu nationalists". With BJP embarking on this flag hoisting exposing MMS's sell out, his prescience, however sinister, is right on the money.

This is exactly the poster in this thread are trying to project. All are acceptable expect some few.
These guys have been paid to come to this agreement. This is so apparent

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 21 Jan 2011 00:17

Or ideologically on the same boat.

Which American video on Af-Pak?

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 21 Jan 2011 00:18

ramana wrote:Or ideologically on the same boat.

Which American video on Af-Pak?

LINK

Very important. Tie every thing to what the goals are.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 21 Jan 2011 00:28

Wasn't that David Ignatius making some remarks about India recently?

here it is:

Bllod feud might become nuclear war

Where is the blood feud when its one sided? Its TSP that wants the fued and not India. If India wanted it could have wiped TSP many times.
I submit he is pandering to terrorists dreams.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 21 Jan 2011 00:43

Typical Op-Ed in Hindustan Times

Flagging the Valley
Hindustan Times
January 20, 2011

The decision of the BJP to hoist the national flag at Lal Chowk in Srinagar this Republic Day could be an act of political expediency, but it’s not a prudent step in the long run. The timely counsel of Chief Minister Omar Abdullah not to pursue this short-term political vision, seems to have fallen on deaf ears in the BJP as it aspires to regain its status in national politics.

Surely, nobody can challenge the legitimate right of a free citizen to hoist the national flag anywhere within the boundaries of India. But the issue of raising the tricolour in the Valley isn’t merely about that right. It is about being sensitive to the feelings of a silent majority of Kashmiris whose fledgling hopes swell with the promise of peace in the streets of the Valley. It is about not rupturing the veneer of thin ice and provoking vested interests to fish in the troubled waters lurking below. It is about being aware of a litany of woes that have largely gone unnoticed.

The issue is about looking straight at the citizens of the Valley with compassion and not driving flagpoles in the name of patriotism through their fragile dreams. Populism and brinkmanship may have considerable space and importance in the political arena. But in Kashmir, it is about holding hands precariously. For a long time, we have pushed, prodded and hoped that our hard-hitting postures and actions would bring us the desired results in Kashmir.

The proponents of the flag hoisting ceremony the coming Wednesday may well argue that Lal Chowk is just another destination, a final stop in their ongoing exercise within the nation. Even if we were to agree to this proposition of equivalence, we should understand what net gains and losses may accrue at the end of it.

Three main compulsions drive the BJP to extend its flag-hoisting yatra into the Valley: One, to proclaim ultra-patriotism through this action to outsmart the political adversaries in the eyes of the Indian public. Two, to reiterate the might and writ of Indian Statehood that encompasses the Kashmir Valley. Three, to demonstrate loud and clear to citizens and separatists of the Valley that India is here to stay whether they like it or not.

There could be more reasons, but considering that these are the main ones, it is evident that a pan-Indian political party doesn’t need to do what they intend to on Republic Day. To be a worthy aspirant for ruling the country, the BJP’s political leadership needs to gain the confidence and acceptance of Kashmiris. The January 26 gesture won’t help one bit.

On a more symbolic level, flag-hoisting signifies stamping one’s writ over a people. By hoisting India’s national flag at Lal Chowk, we mustn’t be led into believing that the geographic contours of the Valley have been irrevocably subsumed into the Indian map. By inhabiting that small space for an hour or two, we wouldn’t automatically have occupied the vast space of the hearts and minds of the Kashmiris.

The challenge is not to spend energies on restating the geographic contours of our nation, but to find ways and means to fill the void spaces within those contours.

Maharaj Pandit is a professor at University of Delhi

The views expressed by the author are personal

Does his dirge encompass the citizens of the rest of the state and all Kashmiris or only that of the separatists?

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 21 Jan 2011 00:51

ramana wrote:Wasn't that David Ignatius making some remarks about India recently?

Bllod feud might become nuclear war

Where is the blood feud when its one sided? Its TSP that wants the fued and not India. If India wanted it could have wiped TSP many times.
I submit he is pandering to terrorists dreams.

These are fake article creating fake images and perceptions about this arch rival business.
The stereotype being made of situation which started 100 years ago during the British empire is some thing they want to feed on.

They want to feed on this 'feud'

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 21 Jan 2011 01:05

from the hullabaloo in the Indian press looks like Omar Abdullah is being set-up as a defender of Kashmiriyat by preventing the Indian flag being raised in the Srinagar. Its same as when he encouraged the stone throwers by doing nothing and let the situation get out of control.
Also the UPA stoic stand of letting Omar counter the flag march could be an election ploy for UP on par with elevating non-entities for Cabinet position. In meantime the PS crowd has a fun time runnnig down Hindu nationalists!

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 21 Jan 2011 01:29

I thought that MMS will allow some symbolic BJP flag hoisting after getting permission from TSP and US. But now it seems he is adamant. Wonder what BJP reaction will be. If they back off, they will become even more of a laughing stock. But they are in a no wn situation. IF they go ahead, they will be portrayed as 'Hindu extremists" destroying piss. If they back off, they will be mocked as all hupe and bluster.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 21 Jan 2011 01:48

If I were OA, I would not only welcome BJP's Ekta Yatra but also actively participate in it.

Yes NC may loose quite a few seats in the valley but it will gain the trust of entire Jammu and Ladakh regions and gains the support of BJP MLAs (10-12).

As a second step, I would start a constituency reorganization in the state so the share of Valley MLA seats are proportional to the population and area.

Why would I do this? Because the fortunes of NC are tied up with India for ever. It is always better for him and his father to be a cabinet minister in India than moth eaten Pakistan while securing the gaddi of Kashmir for a long time.

munna · Post by **munna** » 21 Jan 2011 02:35

CRamS wrote:IF they go ahead, they will be portrayed as 'Hindu extremists" destroying piss. If they back off, they will be mocked as all hupe and bluster.

Let us put it this way they will be called the same names even if they were to sit at home and drink lassi. They have been insulted and spurned by using both the tactics you mentioned in the past for far lesser things. They are used to motiveless malevolence and especially the stuff coming from beneficiaries of their policies in early 2000s, why to be sad about sworn adversaries. Big deal!!

The key is this
Won’t let BJP into Valley: J&K govt

He does not likes the Tricolor wrote:But a senior minister told HT: “It was unanimously decided that BJP activists will not be allowed to cross the Jawahar Tunnel.” The tunnel, 200 km north of Jammu, separates Jammu from Kashmir.

The evil pranksters have already won and sharply defined the geographical limits of "Kashmiriyat (slightly less rancid than pakistaniyat)" and exposed the entire leadership to be basically lord of the flies operating from their comfort zone in valley. Joint governance? Well if there is to be a political package then it has to be with a vengeance. Jammu and Laddakh are strictly off limits for any pappi jhappi or joint-shoint mechanism talks. Rest, the stuff is now out in the open and for people to judge.