Managing Chinese Threat

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 17 Jan 2011 09:00

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing- ... f-the-past

Chinese premier: U.S. dollar's supremacy a 'product of the past'
( Hu 's Ishihara moment )

Chinese President Hu Jintao told reporters ahead of his visit here this week that relations between the U.S. and China have "on the whole enjoyed steady growth" over the past 10 years.In response to questions from The Wall Street Journal and The Washington Post, the Chinese leader added that the two nations should expand their trade and economic cooperation into areas like new energy, infrastructure development and aviation and space, the Journal reports. "We should abandon the zero-sum Cold War mentality," Hu said, and "respect each other's choice of development path.""We both stand to gain from a sound China-U.S. relationship, and lose from confrontation," he added.Hu in the interview defended Chinese monetary policy and took shots at the federal reserve's bond purchases, saying the fed's decisions have "a major impact on global liquidity and capital flows and therefore, the liquidity of the U.S. dollar should be kept at a reasonable and stable level."Hu called the U.S. dollar's role as the world's main currency a "product of the past" and called for an international financial system that is more "fair, just, inclusive and well-managed," the Journal reports.
Beyond the economy, Hu and President Obama are certain to talk about defense issues. China objects to U.S. arms sales to Taiwan, while the U.S. was caught off guard when the Chinese military test flew a stealth fighter jet during Defense Secretary Robert Gates' visit last week.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 17 Jan 2011 09:05

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/schume ... 2011-01-16

WASHINGTON (MarketWatch) — As Chinese leader Hu Jintao prepares to visit Washington next week, a top Democratic senator on Sunday announced plans to reintroduce legislation directed at China that would enable the U.S. to impose import tariffs and other restrictions on countries that manipulate their currencies. Sen. Charles Schumer of New York, a member of the Democratic leadership, said he expects to introduce legislation Monday morning that limit the Treasury Department’s flexibility in citing countries for currency manipulation. The bill would also impose penalties on designated countries and tariffs on their exports, according to a release from Schumer’s office. Companies from such designated countries could also be banned from receiving U.S. government contracts, according to the statement. Schumer has been pressing for years for legislation that could enable the U.S. to impose trade restrictions on China. The legislation Schumer is expected to offer is identical to legislation Schumer introduced last year, according to Alex Levy, a Schumer aide. A variation of Schumer’s bill was approved last year by the House of Representatives but died in the Senate. Schumer and a number of other lawmakers argue that China has been deliberately undervaluing its currency to boost its exports and hurt U.S. competitiveness. The U.S. has long pressured China to let its currency move more freely against the dollar. Clinton chides China on reformsIn a wide-ranging speech ahead of Chinese leader Hu Jintao's visit to the U.S., Secretary of State Hillary Clinton was unusually forthright in calls for China to improve human rights. China’s currency manipulation would be unacceptable even in good economic times. At a time of almost 10 percent unemployment, we simply will no longer stand for it. There is no bigger step we can take than to confront China’s currency manipulation,” Schumer said in September.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 17 Jan 2011 20:56

Tony, the US shakes its stick, but it also offers much else - and in terms of holistic 'good' and 'bad' IMO is more 'good' than 'bad' - other indians may disagree with me. China so far is only shaking a stick and displaying signs of 'bad' with little 'good' in the pipeline. besides which the track record w.r.t. india is pretty grim and the aggression towards india continues and even accelerates - we have nothing 'good' to look forward to. as others have said, trade is unbalanced and colonial in its basic structure. china is recreating the japanese style greater asian economic co-prosperity sphere and not missing any opportunities to trip us up. our benign acceptance of that does have a limit

TonyMontana · Post by **TonyMontana** » 18 Jan 2011 01:29

Lalmohan wrote: trade is unbalanced and colonial in its basic structure. china is recreating the japanese style greater asian economic co-prosperity sphere and not missing any opportunities to trip us up. our benign acceptance of that does have a limit

But why are you blaming us tho? It's like the Indian kid saying to the Chinese kid: "It's all your fault you beat me in the last exam, you're a bad person, stop studying so hard. My benign acceptance of that does have a limit."

What do you want China to do? Cut you in on the deal?

praksam · Post by **praksam** » 18 Jan 2011 05:42

Three evil Chinese held for photographing troopers' camps

Bahraich (Uttar Pradesh), Jan 17 (IANS) Three Chinese nationals, including a woman, were held by paramilitary personnel after they were found taking the photographs of their camps along the Indo-Nepal border in this Uttar Pradesh district Monday, police said.

The three were caught by Sashastra Seema Bal (SSB) personnel while they were taking photos

http://www.sify.com/news/three-chinese- ... eejdd.html

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 18 Jan 2011 06:25

TonyMontana wrote: What do you want China to do? Cut you in on the deal?

Simple, Just three things.

1. Settle the boundary with India, on largely Indian and Tibetan terms
2. Withdraw your military forces from Tibet and let Tibet be truly autonomous - it faces no threat from India
3. Throw out the CPC

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 18 Jan 2011 10:47

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-01-1 ... rect-.html

U.S. Senator Richard G. Lugar of Indiana, the Foreign Relations Committee’s top Republican, said he’s concerned China isn’t doing enough to control the spread of nuclear material. Reports that China has failed to prevent its companies from selling sensitive materials to Iran for its nuclear programs are “worrisome,” Lugar said in an interview for Bloomberg Television’s “Political Capital with Al Hunt,” airing this weekend.
“We’re coming into a very different kind of relationship, which is more difficult for Americans to encompass,” Lugar said, speaking before next week’s visit to the U.S. by Chinese President Hu Jintao. “There is another great power there. It’s not necessarily an unfriendly power, but it’s not one that necessarily is going to reform at our behest.”
The senator, speaking on domestic issues, also advocated restoring a ban on assault weapons following the deadly shooting last weekend in Tucson, Arizona. Lugar, 78, serving his sixth six-year term, had tough words for Pakistan, saying the nation’s inability to control its borders made for “a very difficult relationship.” He said he wasn’t optimistic that Vice President Joe Biden’s visit to Pakistan this week would produce results. The vice president urged leaders there to go after militants, saying they pose a threat to the nation’s sovereignty. A confidential report ordered by President Barack Obama found last month that Pakistan had failed to crack down on terrorist havens in North Waziristan, U.S. officials have said, harming U.S. efforts to end the Afghan war. ‘Hold Your Horses’ “The Pakistanis would say they can only do so much,” Lugar said. “They’re saying to us, ‘Hold your horses.’ Well, we’re saying, ‘We can’t hold our horses. The Taliban are coming in here and the remnants of al-Qaeda. You’ve got to go after them.’”

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 18 Jan 2011 14:44

TonyMontana wrote:
Lalmohan wrote: trade is unbalanced and colonial in its basic structure. china is recreating the japanese style greater asian economic co-prosperity sphere and not missing any opportunities to trip us up. our benign acceptance of that does have a limit
But why are you blaming us tho? It's like the Indian kid saying to the Chinese kid: "It's all your fault you beat me in the last exam, you're a bad person, stop studying so hard. My benign acceptance of that does have a limit."

What do you want China to do? Cut you in on the deal?

no, w.r.t. indo-china trade, i want GOI and Indian companies to change the nature of the trade flows. w.r.t. the rest of the world, i think the ethics employed by chinese companies will soon come back to bite. indian companies will out compete on values over the longer term. I dont care if China plays hard ball on trade, but i want China to be less of a bully when it comes to foreign relations. not just with India, but all around

Varoon Shekhar · Post by **Varoon Shekhar** » 19 Jan 2011 19:47

"But why are you blaming us tho? It's like the Indian kid saying to the Chinese kid: "It's all your fault you beat me in the last exam, you're a bad person, stop studying so hard. My benign acceptance of that does have a limit."

What do you want China to do? Cut you in on the deal?"

First of all, if the idea is that trade is the huge mitigating factor in the relationship, then the type of trade is very important. India would not like to enter into a colonial style relationship of supplier of raw materials, and buyer of merchandise from China, at the cost of local manufacturers. That may benefit a few Indians( and possibly not even that) in the short run, but in the long, it would set back the Indian economy.

Secondly, it is interesting, once again, to see such crude sentiments and concepts emanating from the people's republic of China. A shameless 19th century British colonialist could not have expressed it much better. It speaks to why many Europeans and North Americans admire China, even grudgingly. They see in China's aggressiveness, resoluteness and unapologetic desire and drive for 'greatness'- of course, as they understand the term- a reflection of their own history which is not all that long ago.

Maram · Post by **Maram** » 19 Jan 2011 21:08

China is also playing another version of "Running with the hares and hunting with the hounds" game. The civilian administration(Wen Jia Bao/Yang Jiachi) appear keen of soft power/work in a consensual manner( examples are working with India on climate change/ WTO etc... & atleast in private acknowledge the rogue regime in North Korea and accept an unified Korea peninsula with South Korea at the helm (with the US) ).. They emphasise economic dominance to be used in a gradual manner and potray a softer implication of China's (Inevitable) Rise. Some sections of the Army want tough border stance with India and fight with every neighbour.

There are 2 possibilities :-

1) Both groups are working with a more coherent policy of achieving China's supremacy
2) This represents a schism in the chinese leadership.

I suspect there are a lot of cracks beginning to appear in public in chinese leadership. What it means in the long term remains to be seen.....

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 19 Jan 2011 22:07

Another brilliant idea!

shiv wrote:Folks I am looking for some ideas - especially photos, preferably videos to prove the everlasting and longstanding pakistani -China friendship. I need to find videos about attitudes to Pork in Pakistan and a few chinese videos of pork dishes being cooked.

I know that Pakistanis who are strict when it comes to blasphemy etc are easy when it comes to Chinese pork. I know they don't mind pork. Islam and Quran be damned.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 19 Jan 2011 22:53

Lalmohan wrote:
no, w.r.t. indo-china trade, i want GOI and Indian companies to change the nature of the trade flows. w.r.t. the rest of the world, i think the ethics employed by chinese companies will soon come back to bite. indian companies will out compete on values over the longer term. I dont care if China plays hard ball on trade, but i want China to be less of a bully when it comes to foreign relations. not just with India, but all around

He is saying that PRC without internal market reform and currency reform can continue to take the trade with other countries.
It wants total free access to rest of the countries without having internal ownership reforms and trade practice.

TonyMontana · Post by **TonyMontana** » 20 Jan 2011 01:23

Varoon Shekhar wrote: Secondly, it is interesting, once again, to see such crude sentiments and concepts emanating from the people's republic of China. A shameless 19th century British colonialist could not have expressed it much better. It speaks to why many Europeans and North Americans admire China, even grudgingly. They see in China's aggressiveness, resoluteness and unapologetic desire and drive for 'greatness'- of course, as they understand the term- a reflection of their own history which is not all that long ago.

Should I be ashamed for wanting "Greatness"? Are people in India that want "Greatness" for India ostracised? What do you think of Rajesh-ji's idea of Pan-Subcontientalism?

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 20 Jan 2011 04:08

Chinese nationalism goes viral

However, a new and comprehensive study on Chinese online nationalism vis-a-vis India is disturbingly revealing. The study, by Simon Shen (to be published in the forthcoming issue of China Quarterly), author of Online Chinese Nationalism and China's Bilateral Relations and professor in social sciences at the Hong Kong Institute of Education, concludes, "India is perhaps the only major nation which is perceived as both culturally and socially inferior to China on the one hand but is capable of offering a legitimate challenge to China - with proven realist intention - on the other. Because of this, any economic, material or territorial defeat by India would be seen as unacceptable face-loss for Chinese online nationalists and could have fatal consequences for the party-state."

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 20 Jan 2011 04:13

VinodTK wrote: "India is perhaps the only major nation which is perceived as both culturally and socially inferior to China on the one hand but is capable of offering a legitimate challenge to China - with proven realist intention - on the other.

It is all about self esteem. How was the sentiment in 1972 onwards against India.
So these are mfg sentiments built over the last 2 decades to show a hubris.

any country going thru cultural revolution like the Chinese must be really having low self esteem.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 20 Jan 2011 04:57

Secondly, it is interesting, once again, to see such crude sentiments and concepts emanating from the people's republic of China. A shameless 19th century British colonialist could not have expressed it much better. It speaks to why many Europeans and North Americans admire China, even grudgingly. They see in China's aggressiveness, resoluteness and unapologetic desire and drive for 'greatness'- of course, as they understand the term- a reflection of their own history which is not all that long ago.

It is much cruder than this. The Chinese have demonstrated that they will not hesitate to kill their own people to inconvenience Koreans, Vietnamese, Nationalists, Americans. Or in most cases just kill their own people.

How many is India willing to sacrifice?

Nothing impresses the West as disposable hordes. From the Battle of Unsan to the insufferable Lord of the Rings.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 20 Jan 2011 05:37

Of course, this has an explicable basis. I propose there is a biology of politics- say neuropolitik. Which is expedient from an evolutionary perspective.

The limbic system responds to wanton displays of aggression in predictable ways. That is fear but also a latent drive to placate and assume the submissive role, at least until the extent of the threat is fully assessed. Humans are programmed to respond thus. Some stanzas from the Koran demonstrate that some shrewd men have been aware of the operant principles for long.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 20 Jan 2011 05:42

HU has demanded respect from Obama. Chinese business people taking solace in lack of uptodate infrastructure in india is another sign and When one of my Gora business partner went to China 6 years ago , the first question asked by Chinese CEO in the meeting was if indians too were involved in the business .

The guy came back confused and asked me the reason . Low self esteem and some kind of inherrent fear of Indian , no doubt they act agressive in very irrational manner . OTOH, i had long converstion with a Taiwanese Chinese Tech sale guy working for an Indian software company and he has entirely different perspective. India can reasonably expect a direct or indirect duel with China in next 5 years or so. They will make an attempt for sure , though not a big one.

TonyMontana · Post by **TonyMontana** » 20 Jan 2011 06:48

sanjaykumar wrote:Of course, this has an explicable basis. I propose there is a biology of politics- say neuropolitik. Which is expedient from an evolutionary perspective.

Acharya wrote:any country going thru cultural revolution like the Chinese must be really having low self esteem.

IMHO, many posters on BRF believes the Chinese are culturally and socially inferior to Indians, and we are the ones getting uppity, little brother punching big brother and all that. How do you justify it? I'm just curious. Why are Indians superior to Chinese?

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 20 Jan 2011 08:14

Maybe not wanton aggression perhaps wonton aggression

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 20 Jan 2011 09:00

TonyMontana wrote:Why are Indians superior to Chinese?

Good question, and deserves a serious answer.

It took PRC
- Dictatorial governance system
- Total lack of respect for labor laws, environment, and IPR
- Preferential access to US market
- Access to US dual-use technology
- Forced savings of billion plus Chinese
- Artificially controlled FX rates

- Access to US nuke designs and military technology
- UNSC seat
- Support to dictatorial and terrorist states

to achieve that 10% growth rate and the supel-poweldom

Where as India is achieving all that
- With in a democratic setup
- Well established labor, environment and IPR laws
- US controls
- No-access to western technology and technology sanctions
- Limited access to capital
- Open FX rates, if not fully convertable.

- Technology control regime
- No UNSC seat
- Terrorist threats from PRC, TSP, and so on.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 20 Jan 2011 09:01

Be easy on him!

TonyMontana · Post by **TonyMontana** » 20 Jan 2011 09:27

RamaY wrote: Good question, and deserves a serious answer.

Much appreciated for your serious answer.

But you're talking about the CCP/PRC government here. And I dare say the Chinese are prospering inspite of the CCP not because of it. If you leave out your corruption and glaring ineffeciencies then yes. India has a superior government. In principle.

Why are Indians as a culture and ethnicity superior to the Chinese? Curious for your views.

PrasadZ · Post by **PrasadZ** » 20 Jan 2011 09:34

TonyMontana wrote:IMHO, many posters on BRF believes the Chinese are culturally and socially inferior to Indians, and we are the ones getting uppity, little brother punching big brother and all that. How do you justify it? I'm just curious. Why are Indians superior to Chinese?

We are superior netizens because we are ignored by our government

But there is an interesting question residing in there : Since cultural and social superiority is such an important question to you, do you believe you (or Chinese, in general) are culturally and socially superior to Pakis? How does that dynamic work out when PM Gilani visits your country, I wonder?

gaining superiority over others is just one of many Indian aims, IMHO and the aim of gaining friends, happily, always conflicts with that of gaining superiority. How has the Chinese need for superiority over others in their near abroad worked out in the past and what lessons does it hold for the future?

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 20 Jan 2011 09:36

TM garu,

There is no doubt about Indian superiority over China in terms of culture and ethnicity. Culture and ethnicity are very subtle yet have profound impact on individuals.

It is a major OT here and cannot be explained in few sentences. But pls hang in there and keep a open mind. You will read it on this forum in bits and pieces.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 20 Jan 2011 10:56

Ombaba today called China a 'remarkable civilisation'. The robotman standing next to him must have inadvertently smiled.

An Indian would have muttered 'who the phuk are you to judge my culture'?

That is the difference between a confident culture and one that seeks to establish its superiority.

Dhiman · Post by **Dhiman** » 20 Jan 2011 11:53

No discussion on China pushing spies in Arunachal?

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/vide ... 977446.cms

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 20 Jan 2011 14:28

i dont see culturual superiority one way or the other
both cultures have strengths and weaknesses

abhischekcc · Post by **abhischekcc** » 20 Jan 2011 16:37

Tony,

Every country specialises in some particular activity. In that activity, it is superior to everybody, and in others it can learn. This is applicable to every country and culture, including India and China. American govt and culture czars are too arrogant to see that. Oh, they do take knowledge from other cultures. But they corrupt and package it in such a way that they will never understand the essence of that culture.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 20 Jan 2011 18:18

Dhiman wrote:No discussion on China pushing spies in Arunachal?

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/vide ... 977446.cms

http://www.timesnow.tv/Chinese-tourists ... 363180.cms

Being discussed in connection with arrests of three spies from China.

China today (Jan 20) said that the three Chinese citizens, who were arrested in India without valid travel documents recently, were not spies but "tourists" who entered the Indian territory by "mistake". "The relevant report is inaccurate," Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesperson told a media briefing.

"In recent days three Chinese tourists crossed over to Indian border by mistake along the India-Nepal border. They were detained by Indian police", Hong said. He said the three were not spies. "The reports that three Chinese tourists were spies or had engaged in money laundering were groundless," Xinhua news agency quoted Hong as saying. "The Chinese Embassy in India is in touch with the Indian police and urge the Indian side to properly handle the issue", Hong said.

The three, including a woman, were arrested near the Indo-Nepal border for allegedly sneaking into the Indian territory and taking pictures of vital installations, according to the Indian paramilitary personnel. The three, identified as Liao Xing, Yu Dangli and Yang Liu, were arrested by Shashastra Seema Bal (SSB) near Rupedhiya border in Uttar Pradesh on January 17 when they were taking pictures of some important installations.

An Indian PAN card, two mobiles and a camera were recovered from them. They were booked for illegally entering country and under the Passport Act.

Raghavendra · Post by **Raghavendra** » 20 Jan 2011 18:37

TonyMontana wrote:IMHO, many posters on BRF believes the Chinese are culturally and socially inferior to Indians, and we are the ones getting uppity, little brother punching big brother and all that. How do you justify it? I'm just curious. Why are Indians superior to Chinese?

No you are mistaken, china is culturally superior since it has Tony Montana while India has Gabbar Singh

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Jan 2011 22:47

Nightwatch on the Obama Hu charade.

China-US: Comment: US media are gushing about China, but long time students of China and Chinese will remind Readers that Chinese are not like Americans. China has middle and upper classes about as large as the population of the US. However, the condition of the other billion Chinese is never discussed by Chinese authorities, but does not include a vehicle in every house, but might include a television in every village.

The point is that US leaders have made the mistake in the past of investing with equal stature a country that was vastly inferior to the US. Kissinger made this mistake with respect to the Soviet Union in the first STAR Treaty during the Nixon administration.

The US might be repeating that precedent with China. The leadership structures are dominated by authoritarian communists who have encouraged capitalist entrepreneurial success. Wealth and communist orthodoxy vie for dominance as the sources of and paths to leadership. To date, orthodoxy has prevailed over entrepreneurial talent, but that is no longer a given.

The wealth of the cities is resented by the masses of people in the countryside, creating tension between metropoles and the countryside. The prosperous modern sector overlays a vast underworld of unprofitable state-supported enterprises that must continue because the workers have a right to work.

The Chinese accomplishments in raising living standards for more than a billion people are prodigious and astonishing, but they might not be permanent. They feature multiple internal contradictions that can lead to secession or serious internal unrest. Chinese authorities are careful to suppress news of peasant and worker riots. Success also rests on an economic foundation of large state subsidies to state enterprises that is not sustainable. The Chinese communists keep more than one set of books, as they always have.

India-China: Indian paramilitary police arrested three suspected Chinese spies who were spotted taking photographs of their camps on the Rupaidiha check post of the India-Nepal border, the Times of India reported on 19 January. Superintendent of Police Sanjay Kakkar said the soldiers held the three Chinese nationals overnight and during interrogation the suspects claimed they were engineers working in Nepal on a Chinese project. The suspects did not possess passports or visas and entered Indian territory illegally, Kakkar said.

Indian intelligence agencies remain on high alert after receiving information that six Chinese intelligence agents infiltrated India illegally via the India-Nepal border. According to Indian intelligence agencies, the Chinese agents are disguised as monks and have taken refuge in different Tibetan monasteries of Shravasti. The agents are reported to be between 18-35 years old and one is a woman carrying out her mission independent to the rest who are tasked with spying on the Dali Lama and his aides, Indian intelligence sources said.

Comment: In the six years of NightWatch based on open sources, this is the first report NightWatch has found about Indian intelligence and police arresting Chinese spies. Every student of international security affairs, no doubt, understands that nations spy on each other all the time. Chinese spies probably have a large list of information requirements because the Indians are making major changes to Army and Air Force capabilities along the border with China, especially in Arunachal Pradesh State, which China claims.

States seldom, however, release information about this activity to the public. Thus, the key point for analysis is why would the Indians release this information at this time. The most immediate answer is they want to add balance to the nice words about China emerging from Washington. In the group of great Asian democracies, China is not a friend and not cooperative. Some Washington leaders need to keep in mind that our allies have important opinions about and valid experiences in dealing with China, some predating the US as a nation.

TonyMontana · Post by **TonyMontana** » 21 Jan 2011 01:48

PrasadZ wrote: Since cultural and social superiority is such an important question to you, do you believe you (or Chinese, in general) are culturally and socially superior to Pakis?

Me?

No. Not me. From reading BRF I get the feeling that it's a lot more important to Indians. The constant belittling of Pakistanis and Chinese on this board is facinating to say the least. Heck, you have dedicated threads and a unique language just for such purpose.

Maybe it's not a Indian or Chinese trait. But a trait of Nationalists of every colour and creed.

PrasadZ wrote: gaining superiority over others is just one of many Indian aims, IMHO and the aim of gaining friends, happily, always conflicts with that of gaining superiority.

I like your honesty.

RamaY wrote:There is no doubt about Indian superiority over China in terms of culture and ethnicity. Culture and ethnicity are very subtle yet have profound impact on individuals.

It is a major OT here and cannot be explained in few sentences. But pls hang in there and keep a open mind. You will read it on this forum in bits and pieces.

I would love to know your views on why Indian is superiority over China in terms of culture and ethnicity. May I suggest the off topic forum?

Just as a general comment. I now have a better understanding of the the amount of "heat" directed at even good natured Chinese posters on BRF. It must really grinds your gears to have China, a collection of inferior culture and ethnicity, being uppity and not know their place. Occupying sacred Indian soil and creating unrest in India to the detriment of her economy.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 21 Jan 2011 02:08

TonyMontana wrote:Just as a general comment. I now have a better understanding of the the amount of "heat" directed at even good natured Chinese posters on BRF. It must really grinds your gears to have China, a collection of inferior culture and ethnicity, being uppity and not know their place. Occupying sacred Indian soil and creating unrest in India to the detriment of her economy.

TM-ji

I gave you an honest answer to your post earlier. If you contemplate deeply, it would reveal many things to you.

I can keep writing this and that to answer your questions, but the end of the day your intellect has to see those patterns and make sense out of it. Otherwise whatever I say, whether you accept or not, will become another pontification nothing else.

India's concern over China is not of fear or jealousy. Every Indian, nationalistic or otherwise, admire and appreciate the advances China does in its pursuit to wealth and power/influence. But what Indians dislike about PRC is about its methods and strategies. India doesn't think it is necessary to control and manipulate its citizenry to build wealth or encourage terrorist states to gain power/influence.

India welcomes China's challenge in international arena be it advancement of humanity or science or even creation wealth. But PRC thinks it cannot achieve its goals unless it hurts/controls Indian interests within Indian-subcontinent.

This world view of zero-sum game will become China's Achilles' heal in the long-term as one can see what is happening to Islamism. As the next wave of geopolitical change arrives China will be forced to do a harakiri due to this world view and that would be a sad end for all the decades of growth/advancement achieved at the cost of internal oppression, environmental destruction, and intellectual slavery.

India's concern of China is like a big brother's concern at his younger brother's approach towards life, even though in the short run it appears that the younger brother is reaching out to the stars at the cost of family, health, and peace of mind.

This is enough for now.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 21 Jan 2011 03:14

X-Posting from TSP Thread

RamaY wrote:
Brad Goodman wrote:Why are pakis visiting Srilanka at this frequency?

Pakistan Army Chief arrives
At PRC's behest?

Sri Lanka to boycott Nobel peace prize award ceremony: Sunday Times Sri Lanka

Sri Lanka joined a host of pro-Chinese countries today in refusing to accept an invitation to the Nobel peace prize awards ceremony in Oslo.

A Foreign Ministry spokesman said Sri Lanka's ambassador in Oslo would not accept the invitation to particiapte in the Nobel award ceremony scheduled for Friday.

Beijing has protested against the award to jailed Chinese dissident and human rights campaigner Liu Xiaobo.

China has said Liu's nomination is an interference in China's internal affairs.

Apart from Sri Lanka, countries that have refused to accept the invitation include, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Iraq and Iran.

Meanwhile, the CNN reported that the U.N. is not going to attend the ceremony. A UN spokesman said that is not unusual. The U.N. was not formally invited and usually does not attend the ceremony unless someone from the organization wins the award, the official said.

If India was wondering, what our influence in the neighborhood, and to what extent China has already made inroads into the region, one need not look any further than this report. It says in black and white, that India cannot even take Sri Lanka along in any of our foreign policy initiatives. It says, that if it comes to a choice between India and China, Sri Lanka would choose China.

Yes, and if India was looking out to USA to make India the Lambardar of "South Asia", of one thing one can be sure, China has already made Pakistan its ambassador in South Asia.

TonyMontana · Post by **TonyMontana** » 21 Jan 2011 03:22

RamaY wrote: I gave you an honest answer to your post earlier. If you contemplate deeply, it would reveal many things to you.
I can keep writing this and that to answer your questions, but the end of the day your intellect has to see those patterns and make sense out of it. Otherwise whatever I say, whether you accept or not, will become another pontification nothing else.

Thank you for your honest reply. The problem is we have very different world views and to contemplate your meaning I will have to filter them through my biased lenses. I've made the mistake before of assuming certain meaning in posts, only to find out later that I have got it wrong. I was hoping for you to spell it out for me, so to speak, so I know I got the view point of an Indian.

RamaY wrote: India's concern over China is not of fear or jealousy. Every Indian, nationalistic or otherwise, admire and appreciate the advances China does in its pursuit to wealth and power/influence. But what Indians dislike about PRC is about its methods and strategies. India doesn't think it is necessary to control and manipulate its citizenry to build wealth or encourage terrorist states to gain power/influence.

That's very noble of you and India. But you have to remember the world doesn't just have Indians and Chinese. We are talking about a world where english colonists gave native americans plague infested blankets here. After what happened in the begining of the last century, the cries within China is "Never Again". Heck, even many posters on BRF support the idea of zero-sum game with China. Surely, a person of your intelligence will see where China is coming from. Maybe we're just looking at the same game from different side of the river.

RamaY wrote: This world view of zero-sum game will become China's Achilles' heal in the long-term as one can see what is happening to Islamism. As the next wave of geopolitical change arrives China will be forced to do a harakiri due to this world view and that would be a sad end for all the decades of growth/advancement achieved at the cost of internal oppression, environmental destruction, and intellectual slavery.

Zero-sum has worked out fine for WASP types. You don't throw out the harvest because of one bad apple do you? Pakistan is what happens when you lose the game. I'm sure when China has as much strength as the US, we wouldn't have to use terrorist nations( Hahahaha

I know I know, they use them still, which just proves my point further).

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 21 Jan 2011 03:53

RajeshA wrote:Yes, and if India was looking out to USA to make India the Lambardar of "South Asia", of one thing one can be sure, China has already made Pakistan its ambassador in South Asia.

RajeshA garu,

That is the problem with Indian leadership. Looks at MMS, the PM of India. Did he behave like the PM of a nation with 1+ billion population, 2nd largest standing army, 4th largest GDP in PPP even for a day in past one year?

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 21 Jan 2011 04:50

HU is missing ?

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 21 Jan 2011 04:57

The Rise of Chinese Cheneys
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/20/opini ... .html?_r=1

When Deng Xiaoping made a landmark visit to the United States in 1979, he was seated near the actress Shirley MacLaine. According to several accounts that Ms. MacLaine confirmed this week, she told Deng rhapsodically about a visit to China during the Cultural Revolution. She described meeting a scholar who had been sent to toil in the countryside but spoke glowingly about the joys of manual labor and the terrific opportunity to learn from peasants.
Deng growled: “He was lying.”
Aggressive territorial claims by Beijing are unnerving China’s neighbors as well as Washington. My take is that China has a strong historical case in claiming the disputed islands in the East China Sea known as the Senkaku in Japanese and Diaoyu in Chinese. But China’s claims to a chunk of the South China Sea are preposterous, and its belligerence is driving neighbors closer to America. There’s also a real risk that Chinese harassment of American planes and ships in international waters will spark a conflict by accident. The collision of Chinese and American military aircraft in 2001 led to a crisis that was defused only because then-President Jiang Zemin was determined to preserve relations with Washington. If such an incident occurred today, President Hu would probably be unwilling or unable to resolve the crisis.
Support for rogue states, such as North Korea, Iran, Myanmar, Sudan and Zimbabwe, makes conflicts and nuclear proliferation more likely. But, in fairness, China has much less leverage over these countries than Americans assume. And in the last couple of months, it has played a helpful role in both Sudan and North Korea. Chest-thumping, especially from the military, is poisoning Chinese-American relations. Even Xi Jinping, a pragmatist who has been chosen to replace Mr. Hu as the next supreme leader of China, gave a nasty speech in October falsely accusing the United States of using germ warfare during the Korean War. In truth, Mr. Xi seems to admire the United States — he just sent his only daughter to attend Harvard as an undergraduate — but he apparently feels the need to join the nationalist parade. President Obama started out very conciliatory toward China, but Beijing perceived that as weakness and walked all over him. Now Mr. Obama is tougher, as he must be. My take is that China is going through a period resembling the Bush era in the United States: hawks and hard-liners have gained ground in domestic politics, and they scoff at the country’s diplomats as wimps. China’s foreign ministry seems barely a player. Domestic concerns trump all else, partly because Chinese leaders are nervous about stability and about the delicate transition to Mr. Xi and his team two years from now. A Chinese poll has found that public satisfaction is at its lowest level in 11 years, and Prime Minister Wen Jiabao upset hard-liners by calling publicly for more pluralism (he was censored).

The upshot is that China-Firsters — Chinese versions of Dick Cheney — have a greater voice. Brace yourself.

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Varoon Shekhar · Post by **Varoon Shekhar** » 21 Jan 2011 07:16

But then, which terrorist nation(s) is India using, Montana? And to your remark about desiring greatness, you missed the point, which is that Europeans and North Americans can actually identify with China, sometimes grudgingly. They see in China's aggressive, relentless, unscrupulous, pursuit of wealth and power a reflection of their own not-so-ancient behaviour. Whereas India is more unfathomable and perplexing with its morality, ethics( notwithstanding huge internal problems) philosophising and eloquence about the primacy and universality of the human spirit and soul. This they( certainly the types who identify with China) find difficult to understand and relate to. China with its blunt forcefulness is far more easier to understand and identify with.There's more than a touch of irony in your poor China as victim of imperialism idea. India would rather counter imperialism by fighting it if absolutely necessary, but preferably by encouraging freedom,democracy and pluralism. Propping up a North Korea or a Myanmar is not India's ideological answer to Robert Clive and Winston Churchill. Is there a problem comprehending that?