J & K news and discussion

[ramana]

When did the first inkling of BJP Ekta Yatra come. I know it started in Jan 13 at Kolkota. But it must have required planning and preliminary work.

[Sri]

im out, when did i ever think i can bring sense to BJP, bigots? thank you brf.

Ahem!!! so you came here to bring sense to us? Then you must leave Sir. I am crazy about my Nation, I go gaga about my flag. Every time I hear Vande mataram I have tears in my eyes. I ensure that I and everyone around us stand in 'Savdhaan' everytime I hear Jan gan man. I feel the need to assert my nationality every time I meet foreigners.

I am a proud Indian. I'll raise my flag wherever I want to and whenever I want to Sensitive area or not. Raising of tricolor in Lalchowk will fill real Kashmiris (those who are as Indian as I am) with pride and assure them that majority of India Stands with them and that they NOT hostage of Hurriyat / Pakista itiyadi. Those Kahmiris who have problem with that... I do not care about them, like I don't care about Pakistan and US. This is MY Land and my people shall inherit it.


Mods, since menon s Ji is leaving voluntarily, can we shut the door at him from our end too?

[ramana]

later. I asked and he didn't reply. How knows he might come back later. He has wrong reasons but the ends he wants are same as others.

Sri, Do you have the quote of the great Subramaniya Bharati about motherland?

[Prasad]

What was the quote about ramana?

[ramana]

About the greatness of Mother Land.

never mind:

"She has thirty crores of faces, but her heart is one; she speaks eighteen languages, yet her mind is one"

[Pranav]

Or ideologically on the same boat.

Which American video on Af-Pak?

LINK

Very important. Tie every thing to what the goals are.

Interesting video.

It was interesting to see Armitage say that LeT needs to be bombed because "LeT is killing us in Afghanistan and I take it personally".

But let's see whether people like Armitage can prevail over the US need to keep TSP afloat.

[Sri]

later. I asked and he didnt reply. How knows he might come back later. He has wrong reasons bu the ends he wants are same as others.

Sri, Do you have the quote of the great Subramaniya Bharati about motherland?

Ramana Sir, Just read the quotes. Thanks, will remember this one.

[Sachin]

I strongly feel that menon s should NOT be banned. He has given his own theories (of what his sources say from MHA, New Delhi media circus etc.). Let us leaves the doors open (for him to come back) and also check up the events on the grounds to see if what ever he claimed earlier makes sense later. Either his observations would become true, and help the rest of us or else we get a chance to prove him wrong .

[menon s]

Menon S just to avoid temptation here should I ban you?

Sir, I have a difference of opinion here with certain people. If they can be true to their convictions, why? not me? im merely saying dont do the flag march at this point in time, because, there are problems. Why? should we willingly become a pawn? Do it next year, do it on Aug 15th 2011, but please wait as of now. It is the same thing the interlocutors in Kashmir are saying, its the same thing Chidambaram is saying? Are they too anti nationalists? We all love our country, but look at the bigger picture. Is it wrong? But yes majority of the people do not buy my opinion, here. if thats a case enough to ban me, sir, i have nothing more to say.

[KLNMurthy]

Typical Op-Ed in Hindustan Times

Flagging the Valley
Hindustan Times
January 20, 2011

The decision of the BJP to hoist the national flag at Lal Chowk in Srinagar this Republic Day could be an act of political expediency, but it’s not a prudent step in the long run. The timely counsel of Chief Minister Omar Abdullah not to pursue this short-term political vision, seems to have fallen on deaf ears in the BJP as it aspires to regain its status in national politics.

Surely, nobody can challenge the legitimate right of a free citizen to hoist the national flag anywhere within the boundaries of India. But the issue of raising the tricolour in the Valley isn’t merely about that right. It is about being sensitive to the feelings of a silent majority of Kashmiris whose fledgling hopes swell with the promise of peace in the streets of the Valley. It is about not rupturing the veneer of thin ice and provoking vested interests to fish in the troubled waters lurking below. It is about being aware of a litany of woes that have largely gone unnoticed.

The issue is about looking straight at the citizens of the Valley with compassion and not driving flagpoles in the name of patriotism through their fragile dreams. Populism and brinkmanship may have considerable space and importance in the political arena. But in Kashmir, it is about holding hands precariously. For a long time, we have pushed, prodded and hoped that our hard-hitting postures and actions would bring us the desired results in Kashmir.

The proponents of the flag hoisting ceremony the coming Wednesday may well argue that Lal Chowk is just another destination, a final stop in their ongoing exercise within the nation. Even if we were to agree to this proposition of equivalence, we should understand what net gains and losses may accrue at the end of it.

Three main compulsions drive the BJP to extend its flag-hoisting yatra into the Valley: One, to proclaim ultra-patriotism through this action to outsmart the political adversaries in the eyes of the Indian public. Two, to reiterate the might and writ of Indian Statehood that encompasses the Kashmir Valley. Three, to demonstrate loud and clear to citizens and separatists of the Valley that India is here to stay whether they like it or not.

There could be more reasons, but considering that these are the main ones, it is evident that a pan-Indian political party doesn’t need to do what they intend to on Republic Day. To be a worthy aspirant for ruling the country, the BJP’s political leadership needs to gain the confidence and acceptance of Kashmiris. The January 26 gesture won’t help one bit.

On a more symbolic level, flag-hoisting signifies stamping one’s writ over a people. By hoisting India’s national flag at Lal Chowk, we mustn’t be led into believing that the geographic contours of the Valley have been irrevocably subsumed into the Indian map. By inhabiting that small space for an hour or two, we wouldn’t automatically have occupied the vast space of the hearts and minds of the Kashmiris.

The challenge is not to spend energies on restating the geographic contours of our nation, but to find ways and means to fill the void spaces within those contours.

Maharaj Pandit is a professor at University of Delhi

The views expressed by the author are personal

Does his dirge encompass the citizens of the rest of the state and all Kashmiris or only that of the separatists?

If you translate this article, it means:

"We should fool the kashmiri muslims into thinking (dreaming, hoping fragilely against hope) that they will get azadi one day, and they will be able to detach the valley from India. But if we fly the flag on republic day they might catch on that we are only trying to fool them, and that we do consider the valley to be India. That would be very bad."

Laugh or cry, it is your choice.

It would be kinder to the kashmiri muslims to tell them frankly that they will never get azadi as long as the sun doesn't go supernova, and help them to get on with their lives.

[Sri]

Menon S just to avoid temptation here should I ban you?

Sir, I have a difference of opinion here with certain people. If they can be true to their convictions, why? not me? im merely saying dont do the flag march at this point in time, because, there are problems. Why? should we willingly become a pawn? Do it next year, do it on Aug 15th 2011, but please wait as of now. It is the same thing the interlocutors in Kashmir are saying, its the same thing Chidambaram is saying? Are they too anti nationalists? We all love our country, but look at the bigger picture. Is it wrong? But yes majority of the people do not buy my opinion, here. if thats a case enough to ban me, sir, i have nothing more to say.

Dear menon s,

The keep the discussion on topic. Why call people bigots and all that? Why bring caste in it? Why say things like the guy conducting the yatra stays in 5 star hotels? Why suggest us to read book by a Pakistani writer and endorse her line of thinking when she herself has doubtful credentials ? Why sacasm for punjabi Hindus?

Boss you play dirty others will play dirty too? You suggested that the yatra will have more credibility if done by CPI and CPI (M).

maintain your line of thinking and defend your PoV but then don't make it personal. BJP is NOT perfect national party. When the Yatra thread was created I was the first one IB4TL it because it seemed like BJP propaganda. My IB4TL was made joke later because all those post where later shifted to a new IB4TL thread.

People in BRF are Guru log but they value a good post. When you attack 'upper class hindus' / people conducting the yatra / People who may or may not be BJP walas, you force us to look at your motives in a different line.

[menon s]

People in BRF are Guru log but they value a good post.

I know that. And an sorry if i hurt anyone. My apologies.

[KLNMurthy]

I thought that MMS will allow some symbolic BJP flag hoisting after getting permission from TSP and US. But now it seems he is adamant. Wonder what BJP reaction will be. If they back off, they will become even more of a laughing stock. But they are in a no wn situation. IF they go ahead, they will be portrayed as 'Hindu extremists" destroying piss. If they back off, they will be mocked as all hupe and bluster.

I disagree.

The BJP will very much win, and the Hindu polity will win, and the nation will win... as long as the BJP has the intestinal fortitude to go through with this and doesn't succumb to bribery or intimidation.

Here's the situation. The Maino-Manmohan Cabal has been playing two distinct, but inter-related games with the Indian people. On the one hand, they have been engaging the Pakis (via US-facilitated back-channel diplomacy) and the separatists in the Valley (via political "interlocutors" and other such drivel.) They have clearly been trying to arrive at some kind of Kashmir "agreement" which would entirely subvert the intent if not the letter of the Indian constitution. But they've been doing it quietly, in the belief that as long as a consensus of apathy can be worked into the public debate (by lifafa journalism), they can spring the results on the nation and not have to suffer for them.

On the other hand, the Maino-Manmohan Cabal has begun to systematically inculcate a public narrative that equates Hindu assertivism with religious terrorism of the Jihadi variety. With their campaign to publicize the notion of "Hindu terrorism", the Cabal has attempted to portray assertive Hindus as but another fringe group threatening law-and-order... alongside Maoists, SIMI, and NSCN.... whose activities must not be allowed to get in the way of eight point whatever percent growth, or nuclear deals, or peace with India's neighbours. The key word here is "fringe". The idea is to denigrate all Hindu assertiveness as a movement on the margins of society, on the far side of the law, so that only Hindu apathy is considered tolerable in the mainstream. This of course serves various political purposes.

The Yatra being conducted by the BJP completely demolishes all these pretences of the Manmohan-Maino cabal.

1) It forces the Maino-Manmohan Cabal to put on the table, all the cards they have been playing very close to their chest on Kashmir and Pakistan. If indeed the interlocutors in the Valley, or the back-channel diplomats in Islamabad have made promises or assurances that would be inconvenienced by a political climate where the Indian flag is raised in Lal Chowk... why then the obvious way to find out, is to raise the Indian flag in Lal Chowk.

Until now-- we the people of India have heard whispered hints of this and that from Khurshid Kasuri, suffered obviously biased and slanted coverage from the Indian media, and been hammered with Aman ki Asha type campaigns aimed at creating a general indifference to Kashmir secession among the Indian junta. But Habeas Corpus? We can't accuse the GOI of anything no matter how intense the reek becomes. But by the time the Maino-Manmohan Cabal actually pulls the plug on J&K, it will be too late to do anything about it.

Raising the flag at Lal Chowk unearths the corpse, and forces the Cabal to display its intentions before the watching eyes of India. If GOI responds to the Yatra with violent force, they (not the BJP) will be seen as the ones taking an extreme step. The images will be everywhere... Indian citizens being fired upon or lathicharged as they try to raise the Indian flag in Indian territory. Outrage will be widespread and instantaneous. The pictures (and video) of that one day will be worth an entire career's worth of words spouted by Manish Tiwari or Jayanthi Natarajan.

And then, the Cabal will some explaining to do... out loud and at length. If it has to resort to Jallianwalabagh type measures against Indian citizens to protect its political goals in J&K... what exactly are those goals it is trying to protect? The answer had better be a good one.

2) The Yatra is a democratic statement that has been part and parcel of Indian politics for centuries, because above all else, it demonstrates the power of the common man. Since Tilak began the tradition of Ganapati immersions in Maharashtra, through the Dandi March, to the Ayodhya Kar Seva movement in the present era... the Yatra has been a symbol, not of political protest by a fringe, but of activism by a disenfranchised mainstream. It is a time-honoured demonstration of the will of rank-and-file aam janata Indian citizenry. This stands up in stark contrast to the Islamist, Christianist and Maoist groups who rely on terrorism and violence against innocent civilians to register their brands of political protest.

In organizing a Yatra, the BJP undertakes a legal, constitutional means of protest on behalf of *all* Indian citizens who believe that the status of J&K within India is non-negotiable. This immediately discredits two of the biggest and most Goebbelsian lies being peddled by the Maino-Manmohan Cabal: that the Hindu right is a "fringe" point of view, and that the Hindu right is "anti-national" (or in fact, the greatest threat to India's security.)

The thousands marching in the Ekta Yatra will resonate with the millions watching on their TV screens... the hundreds of millions reading about it in the newspapers or hearing of it on the radio. The nation will see these people not as Hindu lunatic fringe terrorists, but as honest, hardworking citizens like themselves, who were concerned enough about India's integrity to take time out of their lives and make a statement. This will deal a severe blow to the image that the Maino-Manmohan Cabal has contrived, which as you describe, is one of "Hindu extremists out to destroy piss."

The second lie, of course, is that Hindu assertiveness equals jihadi terrorism equals a threat to India's security interests.

Only a small proportion of Indian citizens were exposed to images of the Jammu martyrs facing up to the the soft-Islamist Valley-dominated J&K government during the Amarnath agitations. Not enough of the electorate got to see Indian citizens standing up for Indian national interest, bearing the Indian flag, being shot down and tear-gassed by security forces at the command of those who have usurped the Indian state.

This is powerful imagery... and this time around, it will be much, much harder for the national news media to ignore. The provocative Delhi "secessionists'" conference by Geelani and Arundhati Roy has not been forgotten by the general public... nor have people forgotten that these "secessionists" got off without so much as a slap on the wrist, while the police reacted with force against nationalist Kashmiri pandit protesters at that event.

Now, in contrast, we have the image of Indians from all over the country marching to the heart of a terrorist-ridden, heavily Islamized Kashmir valley... to reclaim for India what the Maino-Manmohan Cabal can very well be suspected of bartering away. The reaction of the Cabal to this Yatra, held up in contrast to their inaction against the Geelani/Arundhati conference, will take place in full view of the nation... and it will be absolutely damning if it consists of violent suppression. It will become instantly and broadly clear who the real threats to India's security and integrity are.

On both these counts, then, the BJP will successfully wrest back the narrative from the Maino-Manmohan Cabal. Assertive Hindus will reclaim their political presence as political activists within the political mainstream, where the Cabal seeks to dismiss them as a fringe movement. And there will be no doubt in anybody's mind which group took up cudgels on behalf of India's national interests, as well as which group those interests had to be defended from.

It is an act of political theatre certainly, but so is everything the Congress has done to cover up its looting of Rs. 14.6 lakh per citizen of India via the 2G Scam. Except that this particular act of political theatre benefits Hindus, and benefits India. Given the level of influence of mass media and breaking-news stories on the political climate today, it would be remiss of the BJP not to engage in theatre of this kind. It's the most inspired idea they've had in years.

The Yatra must go ahead, to Lal Chowk or as close as it can get, at ALL costs. There can be no backing down now.

Joker in the pack: DDM coverage or lack of it, on the tube. Have been following Barkha Dutt's tweets and they don't fill me with hope of even normal coverage.

[ramana]

And further many people go of in a huff and come back. I was only asking if you wanted not to post.

Moreover read what I posted in reply to calls for sending you away.

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 1#p1014871

[Pranav]

Sugata Bose is the grandnephew of Netaji Subhas Chandra Bose and grandson of Nationalist leader Sarat Chandra Bose. He is the partner[vague] of Ayesha Jalal, a prominent Pakistani historian"

Isn't this Sarmila Bose, who is desperately trying to reduce TSPA culpability in 1971 rapes, also a relative of Subhas Chandra Bose? What is happening to the Bose family?

[KLNMurthy]

donot play politics in Kashmir at a point that is very sensitive, when even America has ganged up against us, with Pakistan, on Kashmir. Shall i make it even clearer, would you celebrate ur birthday, the same week, ur mother passed away? Why? is it so difficult for people to understand? the indian nation will not wither away, if the national flag is not hoisted on lal chowk. We want to hold panchayat elections in April 2011, to show what support hurriyat conference is having? even the jamaat will not join them, here. That expose is one last hit on their credibility thats already eroding. The Pakis themselves are loosing trust on the Geelani gang.

menon, why are you talking about mothers here? Do you have any sense of limits and boundaries in conversation or not?

BJP is being political in choosing to hoist the flag, but that's what political parties are supposed to do. Central and J&K governments are hoping to keep up lying to Indians of both the Kashmiri and non-Kashmiri variety--it is like telling a crying child that its puppy didn't die, it just went to visit its grandma.

You should be ashamed to come on this forum and so passionately fight for a policy that is nothing but telling stupid and transparent lies, lies that certainly won't fool the kashmiri rebels. Unless they are not lies, and the plan is to actually erase the tricolor from the valley, in which case we have a very different problem with you and those like you.

[KLNMurthy]

Menon S just to avoid temptation here should I ban you?

Sir, I have a difference of opinion here with certain people. If they can be true to their convictions, why? not me? im merely saying dont do the flag march at this point in time, because, there are problems. Why? should we willingly become a pawn? Do it next year, do it on Aug 15th 2011, but please wait as of now. It is the same thing the interlocutors in Kashmir are saying, its the same thing Chidambaram is saying? Are they too anti nationalists? We all love our country, but look at the bigger picture. Is it wrong? But yes majority of the people do not buy my opinion, here. if thats a case enough to ban me, sir, i have nothing more to say.

menon, something you should understand about the flag. There are those of us whose families sacrificed everything for flying the flag in defiance of those who thought it was offensive. The flag is not like coffee, to say, what is there, if we don't have coffee today we can always have it tomorrow.

We are not stupid, surely BJP is playing political mischief with the flag, but then that's what politics is. But the flag is the nuclear option. Once it comes out, we don't compromise, we don't temporize, we don't prevaricate. We just stand up, salute and defend it. It may be unfair, it may be totally inconvenient and even costly. It doesn't matter. Bring out the flag, and the debate is over.

What exactly did you think this forum is and who do you think we are here?

[Raghavendra]

i quit im done

Well im done folks. Im done

im out

there is a saying, something to do with bark and not biting and returning for more

[menon s]

Dear Mr. K L N MURTHY. with all due respects, i understand ur stand. its clear, truthful and transparent. But it is a military mind speaking. Black or white thinking. I have great respect for it. But for certain people, life is never black or white. It is always shades of grey. Let me explain, its like typical Policeman thinking. always in between the jaws of the politicians and the superiors. The truth is never important, what is important is on whose side there is more power. Its a shit life. But it gives you enormous survival instincts . This insurgency , is a devious war, run , by devious men from across the Paki land. It cannot be fully won on military means alone. It cannot be won by black and white thinking alone. One needs to lie, use guile and even sleep with the enemy too, And thats exactly my way of thought. It may be repugnant to you, im sorry, for that. But our goals are the same. I have my views on politics, i am against any religious nationalism. If thats is pseudo secularism, so be it.
And one more thing, you asked me that our lies are not going to fool the insurgents? Who is looking for the truth here? The insurgents? They will loose their only skill and profession once this problem gets solved! Ghar me choola na jalegi, phir?

[Sri]

^^^

Menon, is there a plan here. I mean you think there is an over arching plan that Manmohan and Abdullahs playing? And this yatra will ruin the best laid plans?

You think there is a strategy at play of ensuring Kashmir integrates with India and right now hoisting the tri color may undo it?

If yes, how do you know that? And how good is the plan and are the risk factors?

[menon s]

sri sir,
1.UPA, has never had any plans on Kashmir solution. They consider this a historic problem, that has to be borne out. Kashmir is like an invalid child amongst all of Indias Children, that means other states. One who needs constant vigil and support and has special needs. We did take her to many doctors, but it is congenital. We cannot help it. But it is our blood and our baby and very cute too.
2. There is no overall strategy here. But people feel, that there is going to be pressure from USA and the EU, in the run up to the Afghan pull out. There are many ******** who are walking around New Delhi, saying that, " Kashmir, is the key to Afghanistan" . These are think tanks dressed up as NGO`S.
3. As usual, our man Geelani will, start his ops, once winter moves, everyone knows that, since its now become a seasonal exercise.
4. Summer is when schools are closed, and the boys can make good martyrs, or pocket money, either way, destiny helps.
5. The panchayat elections are planned, in April of 2011. Hurriyat will stay away. there will be lot of political activity. this time even jamaat will not support them, and probably vote fully, for pdp. Now the elections are for politicians ways and means to rake in some moolah thats it and nothing more. But, when elections and all that frenzy is on Geelani cannot ply is trade. And we too can prove to the naysayers the ground support that separatists have.
6. Now the interlocutors are there, filling their note books from the mindless babble of all and sundry. There is a saying that there is a lot more between the cup and lip. So they are exploring myraid small ways, but effective ones, that can ease the pain of the people in the valley. It is a constructive thing, at least people are speaking to them openly.
7. Now if this lal chowk flag march happens, and i know the time for conflict resolution is over. Now its Congress_NCP Ego Vs BJP ego, the interlocutors loose credibility (i know you guys have hit the shoot me button, but please) , there is fight and god alone knows what all will happen, since its Kashmir? People who handle the scene are always jittery.
8. Pakis great friends of ours, are waiting for something like this, they will use the news, to enthuse their people, who are only getting depressed day by day, with the situation in their country.
9. the think tanks are here, these days, and they will say "Didnt we tell ya?", with knowing smiles.
10. If things get out of hand, like say for example, an attack on BJP cadres in Srinagar, where in people loose lives, things can get out of hand. What if BJP cadres in jammu, kill a few muslims in retaliation. then a whole new hungama will start. And the porki devils are hat in hand for any mischief.
11. Compare that to a situation, where, the blokes are undisturbed in winter. The interlocutors do their job peacefully. Then when the sun is out the elections are in and geelani gets no time to pitch his tent, this summer, because there is the election circus running. The think tanks have no opportunity to exploit, and the window of danger of afghan pull back receeds after August of 2011 with no much pressure.
12. About kashmir, the MoH, thinks from one week to week. A week without trouble there and you can see happy faces going back to their wives and children. As i was telling you, Kashmir is still a child with special needs.
13. about how i know, all this, i ve spoken to a couple of these NGO THINK TANKS myself.
10. Now

[Sanku]

There is one solution, stop treating J&K specially, the special child will grow up in a day. Thats all there is to it.

[rkirankr]

There is one solution, stop treating J&K specially, the special child will grow up in a day. Thats all there is to it.

Absolutely true. You treat a child as special, it will grow upto be a spoilt , good for nothing citizen. I do not know if it is possible, can JK be split such that the kashmir valley is divided between a Jammu state and a ladhak state.

[Hari Seldon]

^^kiran,
ostensibly, the reason GOI isn't pushing that is that it *may* endanger our principled position on retaking PoK+NA or something like that. In any case, J&K assembly, dominated by KMs, will never agree to such a split.

[munna]

There is nothing "special" to J&K and that is fundamental point of debate. Menon your "think tanks" were hinted to not take up any back channel deliberations vis a vis joint governance or any type of "management" solution. Any amount of name calling even under the benign "tilt" of mods will not dissuade nationalists from their path. J&K was more "special" when Indians were required to have a permit to visit and now it is less special then that. In future all vestiges of "special" will be gone and that is what the "think tanks" dread.
This round of shadow boxing has already been won and the plausible deniability plan "b" has already kicked in. Rest is all academic.

[Hari Seldon]

The establishment is coming all-out to stop the yatra at kathua itself.

IMO, they will likely succeed. The Indian state has ways, means and powers over its citizens that are seldom overestimated only.

[SwamyG]

One needs to lie, use guile and even sleep with the enemy too, And thats exactly my way of thought. It may be repugnant to you, im sorry, for that. But our goals are the same. I have my views on politics, i am against any religious nationalism. If thats is pseudo secularism, so be it.

Probably you thought, I was joking earlier in my first paragraph about borders-less or national-less planet. I was not, that would be ideal but it is impossible to achieve them.

The entire angst seems to be is that this yatra is done by BJP. That is the crux of all our posts. And in order to support that view point you have dragged in so many other rhetoric into play and you have lost track of what you have said. At one point in time you say this is a sensitive time and expect no flag hoisting, then you say if CPI was hoisting the flag it would have been okay. You have every right to follow a party and support it.

Your takleef on J&K, its people and their plight is overshadowed by your takleef and views of BJP.

[menon s]

This round of shadow boxing has already been won and the plausible deniability plan "b" has already kicked in.

What`s plausible denaility plan , i mean who takes it forward? is it the think tanks themselves?

[brihaspati]

menon s wrote
6. Now the interlocutors are there, filling their note books from the mindless babble of all and sundry. There is a saying that there is a lot more between the cup and lip. So they are exploring myraid small ways, but effective ones, that can ease the pain of the people in the valley. It is a constructive thing, at least people are speaking to them openly.

You think what the interlocutors are doing is an effective exploration of "effective-small" ways to ease the pain of the people in the "Valley"? Any info on whether they are also doing a similar effective exploration of "effective small ways" to ease the pain of Kashmiris who are not in the "Valley"? Or for you only easing the pain of current occupiers of Valley is absolute task? Any idea on whether such "effective" ways can lead to solutions that are painful for non-Valley "Kashmiris"?

7. Now if this lal chowk flag march happens, and i know the time for conflict resolution is over. Now its Congress_NCP Ego Vs BJP ego, the interlocutors loose credibility (i know you guys have hit the shoot me button, but please) , there is fight and god alone knows what all will happen, since its Kashmir? People who handle the scene are always jittery.
8. Pakis great friends of ours, are waiting for something like this, they will use the news, to enthuse their people, who are only getting depressed day by day, with the situation in their country.

You think that conflict "resolution" is possible? Okay, under what terms and conditions do you think it can be resolved? Any resolution means both, or one side has to concede something to the other. What is your list of concessions that must be given by either or any one side?

9. the think tanks are here, these days, and they will say "Didnt we tell ya?", with knowing smiles.

Why should it be incumbent of a sovereign government of India to be shaking in fear of how "think tanks" are sneezing? Any particular weak spots that are available to the "think tanks"? GOI does not listen to any and all think tanks - do they?

10. If things get out of hand, like say for example, an attack on BJP cadres in Srinagar, where in people loose lives, things can get out of hand. What if BJP cadres in jammu, kill a few muslims in retaliation. then a whole new hungama will start. And the porki devils are hat in hand for any mischief.

Can you spell out the affiliation of who can attack BJP cadre in Srinagar? Since you avoid mentioning the religious background of attackers of BJP, why do you conclude that the BJP will attack Muslims in particular in "retaliation"? Actually Kashmir Valley "Muslims" attacked Valley Hindus, but I do not think there was any retaliation back on Muslims!

11. Compare that to a situation, where, the blokes are undisturbed in winter. The interlocutors do their job peacefully. Then when the sun is out the elections are in and geelani gets no time to pitch his tent, this summer, because there is the election circus running. The think tanks have no opportunity to exploit, and the window of danger of afghan pull back receeds after August of 2011 with no much pressure.

So there will be no danger once the "Afghan pullout" happens? The USA claims that they will have a particularly long "evacuation" - stretching out to 2014. You mean for all of that time no Indian claim on the land of Kashmir can be asserted? After the full withdrawal, you claim that the same dangers or demands on India to shut up will not be there?

Actually in Kashmir Valley, elections and stone pelting follow each other like fox and hare. Only the "elections" are drummed about to show oh-how-peaceful-intent Valley Muslims are and then when the country is lulled into complacency - starts insurgency and violence again. Who is duping whom? Jihadis duping Congress, Congress duping Jihadis, both duping non-Congress non-Jihadi Indians, or supporters of the Congress on the ground in the Valley and related areas duping both the Congress and nonJihadi Indians as well - by supporting the voices like Omar Abdullah?

[praksam]

This round of shadow boxing has already been won and the plausible deniability plan "b" has already kicked in.

What`s plausible denaility plan , i mean who takes it forward? is it the think tanks themselves?I was talking to pax christie in netherlands and they say they operate on both sides of the borders in kashmir

Is these the same pax christie??

WHAT IS PAX CHRISTI?

http://www.paxchristi.net/international/eng/index.php
Pax Christi International is a non-profit, non-governmental Catholic peace movement working on a global scale on a wide variety of issues in the fields of human rights, human security, disarmament and demilitarisation, just world order and religion and violent conflict.

[munna]

IMO, they will likely succeed. The Indian state has ways, means and powers over its citizens that are seldom overestimated only.

Rest assured they have failed. They are not supreme-er than Nehru even he had to come down from his ivory tower and rescind the permit.

[menon s]

IKV Pax Christi! Runs orphanages in Pok and Kashmir.

[svenkat]

del

[praksam]

IKV Pax Christi! Runs orphanages in Pok and Kashmir.

but their website says otherwise.They have different agendas along with running orphanages

[menon s]

brihapathi ji

Why should it be incumbent of a sovereign government of India to be shaking in fear of how "think tanks" are sneezing? Any particular weak spots that are available to the "think tanks"? GOI does not listen to any and all think tanks - do they?

real good question, i do not have any answer. My honest guess would be wikileaks?

[brihaspati]

No, in case it is wikipee, then it would be a general fear of all and sundry! Two possibilities - one that GOI gives a fab for what the think-tanks think. Second that it simply pretends to be shaking in fear of think-tanks when the think-tank's ideas already coincide with its inner agenda - and therefore think-tank shouting can be used a s acover for actual intentions.

[menon s]

No, in case it is wikipee, then it would be a general fear of all and sundry! Two possibilities - one that GOI gives a fab for what the think-tanks think. Second that it simply pretends to be shaking in fear of think-tanks when the think-tank's ideas already coincide with its inner agenda - and therefore think-tank shouting can be used a s acover for actual intentions.

What if? its an if? And u know what an if means? say someone high up in UPA, has done some international dealing, that certain, foreign agencies are aware of , can they not put pressure on that person, to put pressure on IMO? im just extrapolating, things.

[ramana]

I thought you didn't like the forum and were not going to post anymore. I think like Peter you denied the forum thrice! So whats gogni on? Are you in or not? Can't have it bothways.

If you are in you go back to all the posts where you said you quit and edit them. If not then sayanora.

[Hari Seldon]

Thanks. The J&K thread all but stands hijacked only. More important events and motives will need to be discussed here as jan 26 approaches rather than play mindgames with self-professed socialistas.

[Chandragupta]

Mani Shankar Aiyar on Headlines Today right now with his tongue hanging out licking Kasuri's backside discussing how India should handover J&K.