Indian Naval Discussion

[Avid]

Add to the above, imagine a scenario of hunting down 2-3 subs in the Bay of Bengal/Arabian Sea, and/or worse scenario of 1 on each side. Where are you going to deploy constrained resources -- it is not just ships, but crew also!

[sumshyam]

French were impressing the Indian Naval Officers who visited and exercised that the Indian Navy should consider the Charles De Gaulle reactor, arrestor gear and systems to operate the Rafale from the reported IN 60,000 ton carrier on the drawing boards in Naval Design Bureau.

That means IAC -2 will be nuclear powered...is it so..?

[Prasad]

Given the experience gained with Arihant, why would we need reactors from France for a bigger vessel ?

[John]

Substituting P28As with P-17A? They are not in the same class, not the same purpose. I beg some explanation on how this substitution would work.

P-28 is a ~2500 ton ASW Corvette (nearing a Frigate of yesteryears in size)
Armed with 1 x 16 cell Barak SAM for AD
P-28 would be ~27 knots top speed, with P-28A ~32 knots
Range ~4,000 nm
Crew of ~85

P-17A is a ~5,500 ton guided missile frigate
Armed with a 2 x 16 cell Barak SAM, 1 x 8 cell Brahmos/Klub
top speed of ~32 knots
Crew of ~257
Cost ~US$550 million

In an ASW role where coverage is essential, would you rather have 3 x P-28 (cost and crew equivalence), or 1 P-17A?

In current environment a single purpose surface combatant is obsolete and the idea went away with cold war, something royal navy found out in the Falklands. A vessel should be able to perform multiple duties as part of a fleet as well be able operate on its own.

P-28 from what i last read cost about 2300 crores/each (expect it to go over 3000 crores when it is finally inducted) so their price tag so you are not saving that much with smaller design. But it has plenty of limitations it has limited air defense capability, no AsuW capability, can carry only one small-mid sized helo and most importantly it does not even have 91RE2 missile for ASW.

Specs of P-17A have not been finalized, IMO IN should use RSN's delta class frigate as the basis the vessel is only 3200 tons and requires crew size of about 70 but has armament of 32 Sylver cells (Barak-8 should be about the same size) and 8 Harpoon (fit 8 Brahmos amidship instead).

Add to the above, imagine a scenario of hunting down 2-3 subs in the Bay of Bengal/Arabian Sea, and/or worse scenario of 1 on each side. Where are you going to deploy constrained resources -- it is not just ships, but crew also!

I doubt IN can risk it operating by itself it only has Barak-1 and will be easy picking for P-3 orion.

[chackojoseph]

^ Well to be honest Unkil has agreed to just revisit the list of entities which were on it's list as far as access to dual use technologies is concerned it might help the scientific fraternity as such but as far as benefit to our MIC is concerned the news about Elta 2052 should be a sign of things to come.

They took all off. All DRDO, ISRO entities.

On 2052, play hard to get.

French were impressing the Indian Naval Officers who visited and exercised that the Indian Navy should consider the Charles De Gaulle reactor, arrestor gear and systems to operate the Rafale from the reported IN 60,000 ton carrier on the drawing boards in Naval Design Bureau.

That means IAC -2 will be nuclear powered...is it so..?

60K T carrier on diesel is bad. Defeats the whole purpose. Nothing like unlimited fuel and a water purifier. The boats will fight for longer time.

[Singha]

I dont see any way IN will come down from 5500 P17 to a 3200t P17A design. if anything, the follow ones get bigger. just one heli is unacceptable for a IN mainline ship methinks - talwar is suboptimal soln. Likewise the P28 can be improved to a P28A with 2 helicopters, MM40 exocet, Klub ASW missiles, a better radar and so on...up the weight by 750t.

a modified FREMM design of around 6000t , with barak8, mfstar, MM40 exocet/brahmos, barak1, 2 helicopters is more likely size and shape of things to come for P17A... it will be almost as large as the P15 Delhi but for H&D reasons called a FFG

[srai]

According to this old BR page, IN's UAV squadron consists of 6 Searcher Mk.2 and 6 Heron UAVs. Plus, add to this some reserves ... another 4 to 6 UAVs (i.e. 2 to 3 Searcher Mk.2 and 2 to 3 Heron). So the total you are looking at is around 16 to 18 UAVs.

Squadron strengths are decided based on operational taskings. For example, 122 squadron based at Jaisalmer in 1971 had only 4 Hunters on strength.

For MPA, 4-8 aircraft are ideal for an operational tasking (depending on aircraft capability) and you'll find many MPA squadrons with that number of aircraft. US P-3C squadrons have 8 planes apiece.

Also, in India and Pakistan, squadron are based on types, for ease of operations and maintenance, but this is not the most effective / efficient way. Eg 315 has 4 Il38 that is appropriate but 312 with 8 Tu142 was more like a wing rather than a squadron. At any point of time, 312 had multiple operational taskings that is inefficient.

A Heron system consists of two aircraft while a Searcher consists of four. Procurement was in these multiples. If memory serves right, 342 at Garuda with dets at Porbandar and Uchipuli had 4 Heron & 8 Searchers. Two Herons were ordered 2008 & should have been delivered by now, and I belive these two Herons along with some Searchers ex-342, that were surplus for 342 operational tasking, were released to form 343.

The squadron strength is ample for the operational tasking. Its speculation extrapolating squadron ORBAT at a previous point of time to another one today.

You maybe right.

The 342 squadron was the first to receive the UAVs in 2006 (after 3 years of training). IN now has around 5 years of operational experience (2006-2010) using these UAVs and will be interesting to see what the composition of the new 343 squadron will be as this will reflect more accurately future UAV squadron raising (3 UAV squadrons planned total).

But it is highly likely we will see in the following multiples given what you have pointed out about the Israeli UAV systems:

* 1 x Searcher Mk.2 system (4 units + associated ground systems)
* 1 x Heron system (2 units + associated ground systems)
* plus some reserves

At the minimum, we can assume it will be the above.

[Austin]

Indian, Russian navies for expanding scope of ties

India, like Russia, operates independently in the Gulf of Aden region against piracy and both naval chiefs exchanged views on the possibilities for the two navies to cooperate.

They also talked on the operational philosophies of the two navies and bilateral projects, Indian Navy spokesman Cmd. P.V. S. Satish said.

With India scheduled to get aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya (Admiral Gorshkhov) towards the end of 2013, the two naval chiefs discussed about training of personnel of the Indian Navy, expected to commence later this year.

[chackojoseph]

Indian Navy to retire INS Virat by 2018

[sankum]

Navy to operate Viraat aircraft carrier for another decade

[Juggi G]

Indian Navy Accelerates Nuclear Submarine Programme
..:: India Strategic ::..

Indian Navy Accelerates Nuclear Submarine Programme
By Gulshan Luthra
Published : January 2011

New Delhi. The Indian Navy has begun construction of second and third of its nuclear submarines, speeding up the indigenous underwater capability programme.

According to well placed sources, while work on Arihant, the first nuclear submarine that was launched in 2010, was going on as scheduled, construction of the hull and sub components of the remaining two submarines was also underway. Considerable experience has been built from the development of Arihant, and the successive two submarines would be successively more potent with more power and punch.

The Indian Navy also hopes to get the nuclear powered K-152 Nerpa from Russia around March 2011, and that would help Indian officers and seamen in gaining renewed experience in operating nuclear vessels. Indian crews are already training on board the vessel, an Akula-II class 12,000 tonne submarine.

Russia, as part of the Soviet Union, had given the first nuclear vessel to India in the late 1980s on a 10-year lease, but whatever experience Indian sailors got on operating it was lost as most of them have retired and the programme was not renewed.

There was no official confirmation on what is happening on building the nuclear submarine capability, but Chief of Naval Staff Admiral Nirmal Verma, told newsmen on his Navy Day press conference that the Naval Headquarters was aware that the Navy’s submarine fleet was getting old and required a renewed effort to build an honourable number of both nuclear and conventional submarines.

Arihant itself is due to be commissioned in 2012.

Naval sources indicated that some of the Indian warships could be equipped with nuclear arms as part of India’s No-First-Use-But-Massive-Retaliation Policy.

“We have Arihant. It is there. We have a triad in place now, but we have to use it as effectively as possible. We will have Arihant going within two years. There is progress in the project, despite some initial hiccups,” the Naval Chief said without giving any details.

Self reliance through indigenization is absolutely essential, he significantly stressed.

It may be noted that in the coming years, the Indian Navy’s submarine fleet could come down to as low as only eight submarines, from its existing strength of 15. And these are also old despite some periodic upgrades. The Navy has 10 Soviet vintage Kilo class submarines and four German HDWs. The 15th is a very old Foxtrot class, and set to be decommissioned.

Responding to a question by India Strategic, he observed: “There was a downward trend because of the gap that took place. For 17 years, we didn’t commission any indigenous submarine. That is why this gap took place.”

Conceding that there was a delay in the Scorpene programme, Admiral Verma said that it was now on track.
The French DCNS has reportedly offered two more submarines to make up for the depletion in addition to the six Scorpenes it plans to deliver from 2014 onwards. The Scorpenes are being build at the state-run Mazagon Docks Ltd. (MDL).

Admiral Verma said that the emphasis was on strengthening all the dimensions, and with data links and indigenous combat management systems, be they surface, sub-surface and air. And that the Navy had also decided to order four more Boeing P8-I maritime reconnaissance and anti-ubmarine warfare aircraft from the United States. The maritime and coastal surveillance and protection was of paramount interest so as to prevent a repeat of 26/11/2008 terror attacks by Pakistani saboteurs.

The Navy and Indian Coast Guard (ICG) are going to use a number of networked aircraft and other assets to monitor the seas, and the Navy is also acquiring Medium Range Maritime Reconnaissance (MRMR) aircraft to further augment its surveillance capabilities.

The first P8-I, the metal for which has already been cut at Boeing’s Seattle factory, is due for delivery in January 2013, around the time this hi-tech aircraft is also delivered to the US Navy. Admiral Verma and a high level visited the US recently and he said he was happy that the production of this “extremely modern and capable aircraft” was on track.

One good thing about the Indian Navy, he pointed out, was its capacity to design its warships, and integrate them with state-of-the-art sensors. All future development programmes are aimed at inducting the highest available levels of technology into the indigenous military industrial stream.

He reminded that the Navy Day is marked to commemorate the daring and innovative actions taken by our Navy during the 1971 conflict that helped contribute to India’s resounding victory. The Navy Day is an occasion to remember our war heroes and rededicate ourselves to the service of the nation. Indeed, the theme of this Navy Week, ‘Glorious Wake, Vibrant Future’, reflects this very sentiment.

Admiral Verma said that over the past year, the Indian Navy had maintained a high tempo of operations. “Our ships, submarines and aircraft have conducted sustained operations towards safeguarding our maritime interests. We have operated in tandem with navies of friendly nations in the form of naval exercises, as well as cooperative security initiatives in support of our foreign policy. We have consolidated our coastal security organisation and infrastructure. In addition, we have moved steadily forward in our quest for greater indigenisation of our equipment along with nurturing of our human resources.”

Elaborating, he pointed out, There were 36 ships and submarines on order in various Indian shipyards now, and largely on-track.

The construction of the first Indigenous Aircraft Carrier at Kochi was progressing satisfactorily, though with some initial hiccups, and the refurbishment of Vikramaditya – aka Gorshkov – in Russia was doing well.

Russian sources told India Strategic that work on Gorshkov was at a satisfactory pace and the ship was due for delivery before the Navy Day in December 2012 under the Russian government’s sovereign guarantee. Indian officers and crew are supervising and training on it.

Admiral Verma said that while the Navy’s first stealth frigate INS Shivalik was already commissioned, two more ships of the same class were on the anvil.

Then, three Kolkatta class Destroyers, four advanced anti-submarine corvettes, four offshore patrol vessels (OPVs), and a second sailing ship, were in various stages of construction.

In addition, five more OPVs, two Cadets Training Ships had been ordered from private shipyards, while the Government had also sanctioned four modern Landing Platforms Docks (LPDs) and a second line of six advanced submarines under Project 75 with high ToT levels. Apparently, the Navy is happy with INS Jalashwa, the decommissioned LPD USS Trenton that it bought for a pittance from the US in 2007 for amphibious role concepts.

The second line of submarines will have higher levels of underwater capability with Air Independent Propulsion (AIP).

There are also three follow-on ships of the Talwar class from Russia and two replenishment tankers from Italy, both due shortly.

Admiral Verma said that Mid-life Upgrades (MLUs) on 13 Rajput (erstwhile Kashin) and Godavari Class were also being conducted to significantly modernise them as 21st Century combatants.

As for naval aviation, Admiral Verma said that while the naval variant of the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft was progressing, the Navy was training on the six carrier capable Mig 29Ks it had received from Russia at INS Hansa in Goa. A total of 16 plus 29 of these aircraft had been ordered.

It may be noted that the Navy is also looking for bigger aircraft carriers, of 60,000 tonnes plus, and it is possible that it would build them with foreign collaboration. Indigenous capability though is the key.

These carriers would launch the aircraft by catapults and land them by arrestor wires. Some presentations are reported to have been made by US companies in this regard, as only they have the technology.

There was emphasis on strengthening the helicopter fleet also.

Admiral Verma observed that the Navy was stepping up the technological training facilities for its officers as a high degree of competence was needed in operating modern warfare assets. This would enable the officers and men to move to civilian assignments also after retirement.

© India Strategic

[Kartik]

I doff my hat to the Indian Navy's leaders. Just wish the other 2 services had such an attitude.

BTW, it seems that the P-8I is called the "Neptune", rather than the Poseidon.

[Austin]

Navy to operate Viraat aircraft carrier for another decade
Indian Navy to retire INS Virat by 2018

The problem with extending the life of old ships like Virat is though they are made sea worthy they end up spending most of the time tied in dock with maintenance or similar activities and hence operationally not available to the navy.

The recent history of Virat is such that when ever the IN needed it it was not available , be it Ops Parakram or post even 26/11 mumbai attacks when the IN mobilised its force at sea , Virat was in docks for refit and they had to do with make shift arrangement of operating SHAR from other ships now a decade later the depleting force of SHAR does not make it any better.

The best way forward is to build IAC and start building IAC-2 similar to IAC-1 , so that by the end of next decade we have 3 new Carrier with atleast 2 operationally available most of the time.

[Philip]

Elsewhere reported that though the Viraat can sail on for another decade,the lack of Harrier aircraft aboard is worrisome,which is why I've been advocating buying in large qty. the early retired RN Harriers and even the Ark Royal! They will serve us well for another decade+,first in the CV role and then as ASW/amphib light carriers.In the light of the CNS' statements,it is worth taking a serious look at the RN's second Elizabeth class CV,being built but will almost certainly be on offer (budget cuts) when it arrives.

[Austin]

Well it is better to build IAC-2 at our own yards identical to IAC-1 which can operate 29K and Tejas , this will add standardisation to carrier fleet and we can build the 2nd one quicker in our yards.

We need to have 3 IAC of identical class so that we can introduce a measure of standardisation of type and aircraft operating from it , maintenance wise this would better for the next 3 decades.

[Philip]

Austin,from the report the need appears to be is for 60,000t+ carriers,not the 40,000+ IAC-1 class.The PLAN are going to build upto six 60,000t+ CVs,most probably clones of the Varyag,which will foray into the IOR to protect their tankers transiting the new ports in Burma (recent deal) and Gwadar for the petro products to be piped back to China.IAC-2 could be a larger version of IAC-1,using similar eqpt. aboard,or even a new design such as the RN's E-class.Old requirements for the IN were for a fleet of 5 CVs.IAC-2 onwards could be larger of similar design.

[Nihat]

Elsewhere reported that though the Viraat can sail on for another decade,the lack of Harrier aircraft aboard is worrisome,which is why I've been advocating buying in large qty. the early retired RN Harriers and even the Ark Royal! They will serve us well for another decade+,first in the CV role and then as ASW/amphib light carriers.In the light of the CNS' statements,it is worth taking a serious look at the RN's second Elizabeth class CV,being built but will almost certainly be on offer (budget cuts) when it arrives.

Why would the IN want to go back in technology especially after inducting the k's recently, that too just for a decade , when we are to recieve Vik and IAC within the next 5-6 yrs.

[Austin]

Well if the IN navy needs 60000 T carrier ( and thats not a official figure quoted by navy just a media creation since the navy mentioned they need a big carrier ) then we can build those in our yards.

If you buy from RN you will add the logistics headache of operating 3 different types Gorshkov , IAC-1 and then E class.

[kit]

I doff my hat to the Indian Navy's leaders. Just wish the other 2 services had such an attitude.

BTW, it seems that the P-8I is called the "Neptune", rather than the Poseidon.

Poseidon sounds more elegant than Neptune.Hope that is not in any way an indication of capabilities .

[D Roy]

So jooo like latin bhersion more than greek hainji?

Closet italy lover are joooo?


Any bhay jooks like AIP system is doing well

and realisation of Air Independent Energy
module under Fuel Cell Programme.

http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/nl/2011/january.pdf

[chackojoseph]

Surgeon Rear Adm Nirmala Kannan is new command medical officer at Kochi

[ASPuar]

^^

Kudos. CJji, isnt/wasnt Adm B Kannan the ATV project director?

[chackojoseph]

He is the ATV Director

[Philip]

Nihat,'cos the Viraat which will be operational till 2018+ has only a handful of operational upgraded Sea Harriers and badly needs another 20 at least to last out till then.The RN has over 60+ Harriers early retired.Without the Harriers,the only aircraft that can operate from the Viraat,she will be nothing more than a helo carrier,fit only for ASW and limited amphib ops. IAC-1 is only going to arrive close to the end of the decade and even when it arrives we will require three carriers for the IN.The Gorky/Vik with its MIG-29Ks will also allow us the fundamental requirement of having at least one carrier operatinal in a crisis.Therefore even after the Gorky/Vik arrives,the Viraat will be a key indispensable asset of the IN until 2020,when hopefully IAC-2 will be ready.

[Nihat]

Nihat,'cos the Viraat which will be operational till 2018+ has only a handful of operational upgraded Sea Harriers and badly needs another 20 at least to last out till then.The RN has over 60+ Harriers early retired.Without the Harriers,the only aircraft that can operate from the Viraat,she will be nothing more than a helo carrier,fit only for ASW and limited amphib ops. IAC-1 is only going to arrive close to the end of the decade and even when it arrives we will require three carriers for the IN.The Gorky/Vik with its MIG-29Ks will also allow us the fundamental requirement of having at least one carrier operatinal in a crisis.Therefore even after the Gorky/Vik arrives,the Viraat will be a key indispensable asset of the IN until 2020,when hopefully IAC-2 will be ready.

you have me a little confused philip, you mentioned that IAC-1 might be available only by the end of the decade and IAC-2 (supposedly a much bigger ship) by 2020. I don't know if we can make that leap so fast from IAC-1 to IAC-2.

Also, I would have thought that IAC-1 will not take more than 2016 (tops) before commissioning and Vik will be commissioned late next yr. . Another factor seems to be that IN does not wish to go back in technology for the sake of filling up gaps while adding to logistics and up gradation costs.

If the Navy manages well and keeps Viraat @ sea till Vik arrives (which won't need a major upgrade for a few yrs I hope) and then followed by IAC-1 in 2015-16, then we will have atleast one AC available at all times without having to flog Viraat till it crumbles, if Viraat can be used as AC till 2015 then that good enough , beyond that it should be converted to ASW ship. Ofcourse this will happen only if Navy sticks to it's word of completing IAC-1 by 2015-16.

[aniket]

I have a question .
The wiki on Ins Viraat mentions that it carries Amphibious lac .
What is the current staus of them .

[Tushar Sharm]

[SaiK]

It may be noted that the Navy is also looking for bigger aircraft carriers, of 60,000 tonnes plus, and it is possible that it would build them with foreign collaboration. Indigenous capability though is the key.

wish we go for an indigenous nuke powered one.

[chackojoseph]

It may be noted that the Navy is also looking for bigger aircraft carriers, of 60,000 tonnes plus, and it is possible that it would build them with foreign collaboration. Indigenous capability though is the key.

wish we go for an indigenous nuke powered one.

We could if Arihant reactors fires up and goes through the tests. We might look for consultancy from overseas.

[Cain Marko]

India to buy 3 Scorpenes

Good news this! I wonder if this means that the Mirage 2000 upg is ready for signature - it could v.well mean that these 3 subs along with the M2k upg = $ 7 + billion for the French.

Speculation Alert: It would also mean that the Rafale might lose some of its oomph strategically, and like the Russkis (and possibly the US), not push too hard on the MRCA (although the Rafale is due at AIndia).

CM

[Gurneesh]

Would be better if DCNS makes the subs as we will get them very quickly. This way the initial delay can be nullified to some extent.

[Cain Marko]

Would be better if DCNS makes the subs as we will get them very quickly. This way the initial delay can be nullified to some extent.

Yes, I was thinking the same. They are also going by the 2005 contract it seems - will the price be the same esp. if it is a direct purchase?

CM

[Dmurphy]

Would be better if DCNS makes the subs as we will get them very quickly. This way the initial delay can be nullified to some extent.

Exactly. These 3 new subs will be made only after the first 6, which I presume will only be after 2020. Unless DCNS is willing to run a simultaneous production line and hand them over by 2020. Or else why not negotiate a better deal with for an even more advanced sub ASAP and order more of those off-the-shelf instead? Say 3 in videsh and 6 simultaneously in swadesh?

[sum]

So, could these 3 additional Scorpenes be the testbed for the indigenous AIP which seems to be ready?

[chackojoseph]

Meanwhile,

CAE’s MAD system selected by Boeing for Indian Navy P-8I

CAE's AN/ASQ-508A Advanced Integrated Magnetic Anomaly Detection (MAD) System for eight P-8I Poseidon aircraft to be operated by the Indian Navy.

[Singha]

we have to start our own SSK line by buying necessary blocks but owning the design (like tejas). thats the only way forward even if it takes more time. we will never be a all-SSN navy and the shallow green waters of andaman sea and south china sea are not really suitable for larger SSNs.

else the same old games of selling pakis the agosta, selling us scorpene, offering pakis marlin, offering us SMX21 will continue every vendor....and we must close the gaps in next decade on stuff like integrated combat system, small sub launched ASM, diesel engine and fuel cells. areas like torpedoes, sub launch heavy ASM(brahmos) , sonar are under control now.

to be a big boy we need to start thinking like one and plan strategically two decades ahead.

[johnny_m]

TV REPORT: Indian Navy Exercises Options For 3 More Scorpene Submarines

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2011/01/tv ... Defence%29

[Dmurphy]

So, could these 3 additional Scorpenes be the testbed for the indigenous AIP which seems to be ready?

IIRC, Scorpene # 4,5,6 were to be AIP enabled anyway.

[Jamal K. Malik]

Indian Navy's deep striking capability just got stronger

[Jamal K. Malik]

Antony commissions INS Deepak into Indian Navy