Indian Naval Discussion

[Pratyush]

Would be better if DCNS makes the subs as we will get them very quickly. This way the initial delay can be nullified to some extent.

Having the boats build at DCNS will not have them delivered any sooner. It will still take up to 5 years for the first of the new boat to be delivered. However, if you read this in conjunction with the news of MDL getting the ability to make 2 subs / year. Then the MDL if given the order should be able to deliver the last of the additional subs by 2018 if ordered now.

The additional boats can be build by Pipav or teh L&T as well.

Its time that the navy supported the pvt industry the way they have supported domestic ship building effort.

[shukla]

Boeing confirms P-8A Poseidon airframe's structural integrity

[Juggi G]

Concerns Emerge As Indian LCA-Naval Nears First Flight

Concerns Emerge As Indian LCA-Naval Nears First Flight
Jan 20, 2011
By Asia-Pacific Staff
NEW DELHI

India’s first homegrown carrier-borne fighter effort is moving toward a first flight in March of this year, after missing its target of achieving the milestone last year.

The naval variant of India’s Light Combat Aircraft (LCA-N) completed systems integration tests, ground tests and slow-speed taxi trials following its ceremonial rollout last July, but missed its December 2010 first flight deadline because of concern over the platform’s landing gear and other critical systems; those uncertainties appear to have been resolved.

The Naval component of the LCA program — the primary air force variant achieved initial operational clearance earlier this month — Receives Technical Consultancy Services from EADS to Aid in Development. Lockheed Martin had the role, but was unable to obtain requisite approvals from the Pentagon to carry out the work. The consultancy arrangement is mainly focused on aiding LCA modifications in the area of the landing gear, sink rate parameters for carrier recovery and weight optimization.

The naval prototype (NP-1) is the LCA program’s 12th airframe, and is to be followed later this year with a trainer prototype, both of which will go through their flight-test effort and carrier compatibility trials (CCTs) in Goa. The town is home to the navy’s largest air station, INS Hansa, where a shore-based test facility — a mock carrier deck with a ski-jump and arrester barrier assembly — is under construction by the Goa Shipyard company.

The navy has not officially revealed how many LCA-Ns it plans to field and has postponed a decision on committing to a number until the platform receives its improved General Electric F414 engine for a Mk-2 version.

The navy, typically supportive of indigenous programs, has recently begun to express misgivings over the platform it has backed unequivocally since its birth in 2003. Rear Adm. Sudhir Pillai, who heads the service’s air wing, now acknowledges the platform will have performance shortcomings over what the service ideally would like to field, while recognizing that there are benefits, too, of having an indigenous design.

The Navy’s Apprehensions over Platform Thrust are Much More Apparent Now, with Service Sources Suggesting that Even the F414 is Not Powerful Enough to Satisfy the Flight Envelope They Would Like for Carrier Operations.

[srai]

^^^

Sounds like N-LCA is going to suffer the same fate as the N-ALH ... too small (in operational range) for the Indian Navy. The ideal size for the IN seems to be more of a medium sized combat aircraft and helicopters. Hopefully, IN will continue to fund and induct the N-LCA (even if in small quantities) to allow for R&D to continue and this know-how will be needed when navalizing the AMCA.

[srai]

Would be better if DCNS makes the subs as we will get them very quickly. This way the initial delay can be nullified to some extent.

Having the boats build at DCNS will not have them delivered any sooner. It will still take up to 5 years for the first of the new boat to be delivered. However, if you read this in conjunction with the news of MDL getting the ability to make 2 subs / year. Then the MDL if given the order should be able to deliver the last of the additional subs by 2018 if ordered now.

The additional boats can be build by Pipav or teh L&T as well.

Its time that the navy supported the pvt industry the way they have supported domestic ship building effort.

That 2 subs/year capacity at MDL maybe for the P-75A series as they would need to be build in parallel with the P-75.

It's best to have the 3 P-75 options to be build directly by DCNS in their shipyards as well as 2 P-75A selected to be built by OEM. As you have pointed out, by 2015-2020 IN will be getting 3 subs a year (15 [6+3+6] subs in 5 years).

[chackojoseph]

Static testing on the P-8A airframe qualifies the P-8I airframe as well : Boeing

We had a doubt, which we cleared.

[andy B]

Found 2 vids on Scorpene.
First one is subtics iirc the sub sensory and attack mgmt system of scorpene.

[kit]

Static testing on the P-8A airframe qualifies the P-8I airframe as well : Boeing

We had a doubt, which we cleared.

Would it be ok to tell us what it was ?

[shukla]

Static testing on the P-8A airframe qualifies the P-8I airframe as well : Boeing

We had a doubt, which we cleared.

Would it be ok to tell us what it was ?

Essentially (in my understanding) full scale Static testing is a "proof" of an aircraft's structural integrity. Today the results of full-scale static testing of aircraft structures are generally considered to be the foundation for continuing structural airworthiness.

In full scale static testing, an aircraft is subjected to mechanically simulated design and operating loads to meet certification requirements that the manufacturer demonstrate the airplane structure capable of carrying the design-limit load (the highest possible load under extreme flight or ground conditions that the airframe experiences) without sustaining permanent deformation of the structure. Usually about 150% of limit loads. Its a time when structural deficiencies are identified and rectified. It usually runs over a few months.

[shukla]

WIth new fleet tanker, Navy to have enhanced footprint
Indian Express

Navy Chief Admiral Nirmal Verma, describing the tanker as one of the most modern in the fleet, said that its induction would add ‘significantly to the Indian Navy’s ability to conduct and sustain operations distant from our coast, a factor that is central to the Navy’s ability to protect and promote India’s maritime interests and national security in today’s world’. “The ship not only represents an increase in our operational flexibility and reach, but also our ability to maintain credible presence for prolonged durations in areas important to our national interests. Besides this, she will also enhance our ability to extend humanitarian assistance, disaster relief and medical support to friendly nations in the region,” he said.

Antony, while commending the Italian designers for the ship design, said that the Indian Navy has achieved its rightful place in the strategically vital Indian Ocean Region. “A ship such as Deepak, with an ability to sustain the Indian fleets at sea for prolonged periods, is a vital asset to ensure Indian Navy’s continuous presence in our area of interest,” he said.

VITAL STATS
* Length — 175 m
* Breadth — 25 m
* Full load displacement — 27,000 tonnes
* Transport cargoes — 17,900 tonnes
* Dry cargo — 510 tonnes
* Crew capacity — 36 officers and 212 sailors
* Maximum speed — 20 knots
* Fuel transfer rate — 1,000-1,500 tonnes per hour
* Guns — Four AK 630 guns
* Weapon carrying capacity — 510 tonnes

[chackojoseph]

Static testing on the P-8A airframe qualifies the P-8I airframe as well : Boeing

We had a doubt, which we cleared.

Would it be ok to tell us what it was ?

Please read.... Boeing conducts P-8A Poseidon Airframe’s Structural Integrity Tests

S1 — the program’s full-scale static ground-test vehicle — underwent 154 different tests in which it sustained loads equal to or greater than those expected to occur during operational flights, with no failure of the primary structure. During 74 of the tests, the airframe was subjected to 150 percent of the highest expected flight loads. More than 4,000 installed strain gages and calibrated parts captured data for analysis.

In September, the Boeing P-8A team will begin refurbishing S1 to prepare it for live-fire testing at Naval Air Warfare Center, China Lake, Calif. Boeing will begin fatigue tests on its second ground-test vehicle, S2, later this year.

If you are talking about "our doubt." They have already begun the construction of P-8I airframe and have conducted structural test after that. So, wanted to ask if P-8I will have its own tests.

[chackojoseph]

INS Deepak commissioned

look at the endurance profile

The ship has a maximum speed of 20 knots and an endurance of 10,000 Nautical miles at a speed of 16 knots.

[kit]

Static testing on the P-8A airframe qualifies the P-8I airframe as well : Boeing

We had a doubt, which we cleared.

Would it be ok to tell us what it was ?

Please read.... Boeing conducts P-8A Poseidon Airframe’s Structural Integrity Tests

S1 — the program’s full-scale static ground-test vehicle — underwent 154 different tests in which it sustained loads equal to or greater than those expected to occur during operational flights, with no failure of the primary structure. During 74 of the tests, the airframe was subjected to 150 percent of the highest expected flight loads. More than 4,000 installed strain gages and calibrated parts captured data for analysis.

In September, the Boeing P-8A team will begin refurbishing S1 to prepare it for live-fire testing at Naval Air Warfare Center, China Lake, Calif. Boeing will begin fatigue tests on its second ground-test vehicle, S2, later this year.

If you are talking about "our doubt." They have already begun the construction of P-8I airframe and have conducted structural test after that. So, wanted to ask if P-8I will have its own tests.[/quote]

Thank you for the reply.Neptune seems to have exactly the same airframe as poseidon., so certification of one automatically certifies the other.

[kit]

The Deepak also seems to be a command and control ship with enhanced electronic surveillance capabilities.To call it a tanker would be underestimating its capabilities.

[vishnu.nv]

The PN is going to get the 6 AIP equiped subs from china. Even though the chinese subs will be of lesser quality than their western counterparts there is a good chance that pada will give its taller than ocen friend the subs with Land attack Cruise missiles or may be further nuclear tipped ones. This was never possible when they were buying from france.

IN needs to Beef up the ASW warfare section. A repeat order of another 12 p-8i, 12-15 P-28's and a couple of LHD's carrying ASW Helicopters will be good to counter the threat completly. More over these resources can be pooled against the Chinese subs in IOR also.

[Pratyush]

SNIP............

IN needs to Beef up the ASW warfare section. A repeat order of another 12 p-8i, 12-15 P-28's and a couple of LHD's carrying ASW Helicopters will be good to counter the threat completly. More over these resources can be pooled against the Chinese subs in IOR also.

+ one to that.

[Wickberg]

Mines.
Mines are the most efficient way to halter an enemies naval movements. Mines are cheap, deadly and takes a lot of effort to get rid of (that applies to land mines as well). A WW2 style of minefield will restrict your enemies movements for weeks, not to mention what modern mines will do. Despite that fact most navies of today (including the US navy and the strongest NATO allies) seriously lack MCMVs. When the Desert Shield and Desert Storm occurred in 1990/91, USA had to bring all their minesweepers to the Persian Gulf and its allied nations. They even called for non-NATO nations like Sweden to send their fleet of MCMVs to the area. All this cause of some WW2 class Iraqi sea-mines. Think what would happen if Iraq really would had invested in sea-mines deterrence?
This makes me think. MCMVs and mines are a boring subject to most people, including navy personal, but they are still a deadly threat in the "right" hands. What are the Indian navy approach to this? In Wiki I can´t find one single MCMV but I hope you guys will share some light in this subject and enlighten me.

[Singha]

there are a few old soviet era minesweepers , but no modern MCMV. there has been talk of a euro-designed MCMV line to be built @ goa for around ten years now, but nobody seems to have sponsored it up the approval chain , so not even a RFI is out yet.

that being said, the unbroken indian-paki coastline with hardly any chains of islands or narrow straits etc look unsuitable for mine deployment....the coastlines of sweden , norway would seem to present much better pickings for mines - busy shippng lanes, narrow channels, lots of chokepoints...

[Wickberg]

there are a few old soviet era minesweepers , but no modern MCMV. there has been talk of a euro-designed MCMV line to be built @ goa for around ten years now, but nobody seems to have sponsored it up the approval chain , so not even a RFI is out yet.

that being said, the unbroken indian-paki coastline with hardly any chains of islands or narrow straits etc look unsuitable for mine deployment....the coastlines of sweden , norway would seem to present much better pickings for mines - busy shippng lanes, narrow channels, lots of chokepoints...

But you are aware about the fact that mines can be deployed by submarines or even "civilian" ships outside your busiest harbors, including the naval ones. As I previously said, it´s a cheap but very effective weapon. Just like Sweden I´m guessing India relies on its imports trough the water ways. Like 80-90% of all imports comes from ships? See, there are choke points in India as well. Let just hope any enemy of India is not aware of that fact yet...

[shiv]

See, there are choke points in India as well. Let just hope any enemy of India is not aware of that fact yet...

Everyone knows this. enemies, friends, neutrals.

[shiv]

that being said, the unbroken indian-paki coastline with hardly any chains of islands or narrow straits etc look unsuitable for mine deployment....the coastlines of sweden , norway would seem to present much better pickings for mines - busy shippng lanes, narrow channels, lots of chokepoints...

There are channels where mines could be laid and these are constantly under surveillance.

[kit]

there are a few old soviet era minesweepers , but no modern MCMV. there has been talk of a euro-designed MCMV line to be built @ goa for around ten years now, but nobody seems to have sponsored it up the approval chain , so not even a RFI is out yet.

that being said, the unbroken indian-paki coastline with hardly any chains of islands or narrow straits etc look unsuitable for mine deployment....the coastlines of sweden , norway would seem to present much better pickings for mines - busy shippng lanes, narrow channels, lots of chokepoints...

But you are aware about the fact that mines can be deployed by submarines or even "civilian" ships outside your busiest harbors, including the naval ones. As I previously said, it´s a cheap but very effective weapon. Just like Sweden I´m guessing India relies on its imports trough the water ways. Like 80-90% of all imports comes from ships? See, there are choke points in India as well. Let just hope any enemy of India is not aware of that fact yet...

One reason why IN should be much bigger with a matching coast guard fleet. , i think it is on the way to overtake her majesty's navy and the french navies.Ideally should be as big as the japanese 'self defence fleet'.Any idea how many surveillance planes (orions) the japanese navy has ?

[Singha]

they had around 90 orions + unknown number of shin meiwa flying boats at the peak in late 1980s iirc. could have drawn down some once the threat of soviet navy went away. most of their ships carried ASW helis (SH60) and some carried unusually 3 ASW helis.

a very scary ASW oriented navy even on a off-day. their build-replace cycle is fast and good for ships and they have got themselves some enormous new SSKs too.

[Gagan]

Submarines are expensive.
China isn't going to gift the Pakistanis any submarine, the pakis will have to pay for them.

I don't think they chinese will give them the AIP ones. They are still testing the AIP themselves. OTOH, the Pakistanis might let the Chinese get a dekko into the french MESMA.

I suppose 3 chinese Kilo copies are a given for pakistan to acquire, but any more will be surprising. And yes these subs will be able to fire LACMs in addition to anti ship missiles.

[Singha]

I was wrong , the navy floated bids for 8 MCMV vessels @ $1.4b in 2008 and must have got responses....but no deal so far
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... /m-mcm.htm

meantime, we obtained approval to get two mothballed Osprey vessels from USN...atmost 17 yrs old and mothballed due to lack of role than age
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... &start=200
http://www.zeenews.com/news658368.html

if the above is true, we should see them in karwar this summer...

[Singha]

and Goa officially stated they were building up infra to build the MCMV whatever is chosen in mid 2010
http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=4761983

By VIVEK RAGHUVANSHI
Published: 31 Aug 2010 11:23

NEW DELHI - India's state-owned Goa Shipyard Limited (GSL), which is preparing to build the Navy's new mine countermeasure vessel (MCMV), has asked the Goa state government for additional land so that GSL can complete a $170 million modernization project.

.....

GSL is preparing the infrastructure to build the MCMV, a senior GSL executive said.

[Singha]

http://shipbuildinghistory.com/today/hi ... orders.htm

has a good list of current ships under construction worldwide incl India.

[JimmyJ]

Submarines are expensive.
China isn't going to gift the Pakistanis any submarine, the pakis will have to pay for them.

I don't think they chinese will give them the AIP ones. They are still testing the AIP themselves. OTOH, the Pakistanis might let the Chinese get a dekko into the french MESMA.

I suppose 3 chinese Kilo copies are a given for pakistan to acquire, but any more will be surprising. And yes these subs will be able to fire LACMs in addition to anti ship missiles.

Look at the transaction in this way.

China want to have the ability to support its economic and military activity in the Gulf. If China was to directly enter into a military contract with Pakistan and lease/use Gwadar, it would ring alarm bells all over. China would be named as a nation with hegemonic and imperialistic intentions. Now to avoid this China give the subs to Pakistan at reduced price but reserve the right to use it at the hour of need. Pakistan gets more than it wants, China gets what it needs and nobody is going to raise a single complaint.

JMT

[Wickberg]

I was wrong , the navy floated bids for 8 MCMV vessels @ $1.4b in 2008 and must have got responses....but no deal so far
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... /m-mcm.htm

meantime, we obtained approval to get two mothballed Osprey vessels from USN...atmost 17 yrs old and mothballed due to lack of role than age
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... &start=200
http://www.zeenews.com/news658368.html

if the above is true, we should see them in karwar this summer...

That is good news, but still it looks like the MCMV issue is not a high priority within the Indian navy (compared with its size, and ambitions). In case of a full out war, what are the plannes regarding this, what authorization does the armed forces have? Will they seize civilian ships and make use of them (after some hasty modifications)? Cause as simple minesweepers civilian fishing trawlers will do just fine, but off course you got to have trained sailors on board.
( a boring subject, I know. It just amazes me how so many countries can spend billions on new shiny toys to appeal the audience and arms industry while totally ignoring the small things. The small things that are such important if there were a real war.)

[Singha]

I dont think its a good idea to go after mines without proper minesweepers equipped with high frequency all aspect sonars and such...

[kit]

The PLAN kilo modifed versions have already given the Pakistanis a good idea of the operational capabilities of the indian Kilos.

By enhancing the nuclear capabilities and submarine capabilities of PK versus India., China feels that PK can tie in a numerically and technologically stronger IAF and IN.
For the IA a built in achilles heel is the lack of modern artillery in large quantities.
I would say China's proxy war is working.

[kit]

A rather interesting aspect is the kickback controversies in Media related to these niche weapon system procurements in India.

Submarines.
Artillery.(less said the better)
Nuclear weapons.(not good.. no thermonukes,wont win war against China etc)

Having some control over media reporting is good.I think the recent trend of making public weapon systems development and procurement is to have more transparency and public awareness of the DORK reporting.

[kit]

What id the ideal number of submarines a country like India should have ?
A number of half the number of surface combatants planned for the IN.

A big capability gap here.But once addressed, I dont think anyone would dream about challenging them.

Wish IN would emphasise more on sea denial against a numerically stronger chinese navy.

[Singha]

'feelers' could be sent to japan if they are open to selling part of their new 4200t Soryu SSK design to form the chassis of our P75. we need a big sub to sortie from the mainland and enter south china sea via malacca, java/sunda/lombok straits...its almost 3-4 times times the round trip compared to a typical mission from karwar to karachi.

for next two decades we are not going to have enough SSNs to cover all potential targets esp if they be prioritized for missile carrying triad role.

so big Soryu type subs with AIP might offer the soln.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C5%8Dry% ... _submarine

JMSDF already have two in service and 4 building.

[kit]

The Japs already feel the Dragons breath on their neck, so whatever they are building would go to the JSDF.Wonder they would sell the tech to india !? Doesnt look very likely, they dont have a history of doing it ! They would probably think their designs would feed into Indian nuclear submarines.

A potential candidate for collaboration is Spain or Sweden rather than France and might cost less than the smaller french variant.I would rather not go with the Russians on this one (too many eggs).Germany ? not sure of how that will work out.Why is the IN willing to try out the DRDO AIP when some proven systems are around.They do not have the luxury of sufficient numbers as of now.Or are they going for a foreign AIP as well as supporting the indigenous variant ?

[Tushar Sharm]

If India has enough expertise to develop an almost fully indigenous platform for a nuclear sub, I am pretty sure they have enough expertise to develop a diesel eletric submarine. Seems like a realistic assesment as India has been operating diesels for decades. The only problem that the Shipyards have in actually materialising any order given by the navy would be the buearocratic choke hold, which can only be solved through proper regulation.

A country that can produce an almost fully indigeneous nuclear submarine, with almost 0 experience in the field should not have many problems producing SSK's.

With continous kick backs in the field of defence, the regulation is the only factor that can limit offshore contracts, while promoting national self sufficiency. If you need an example, take a look at India's nuclear program, as it was a critical level reached indigenously through proper regulation, even though the CANDU reactors played the crucial part in developing nuclear research in the country today.

[kit]

I feel that is like comparing apples to oranges., a nuclear submarine is a different beast compared to a diesel electric sub.Some design parts can have commonality, like the french barracuda and scorpene.

[Singha]

the JMSDF purchased tech for Soryu from kockums of sweden (is that a subsidiary of HDW now?). Kockums was also the vendor designer for the 4000t collins class. if you want a 4000t high endurance SSK design they have the experience and hard lessons learnt.

if we want a 1500t design then HDW U214, Spain Navantia S1000, French DCN "Marlin" , Amur are all there....problem is these might not be suitable for the long range strike missions in south china sea....a reason why australia chose a uniquely large collins design was to patrol their vast northern seas. to fight the fight you have to get there and get back which is where I think these uber-large SSKs do better.

to my knowledge other than Aus and Japan nobody has a design or plans for 4000t SSK. even the old Kilo is quite large compared to the smallish SSKs being sold these days.

so we might talk to both Japan (for sub fabrication and other aspects) and to Kockums (for all aspects). one adv is these designs carry 30 weapons in torpedo room vs 14 in kilo/scorpene types. in an era where less has to do more, a surviving large sub can keep up the fight for much longer using its better endurance and higher weapons count....not a SSN by any means...10-15 knots slower submerged for fast breaking transits, lesser weapons (SSNs like seawolf have room for 60-80 ) , more austere sensor pkg (no cost-no-object spherical bow sonar)...but bigger legs and teeth than then ambush SSKs generally available.

[Kanson]

From public info, we plan for 24 SSK with 5 or 6 SSN/SSBN to the total of ~30 subs for IN. With the two front war and with the developement of blue water capabilities of PLAN, will strength of sub remains the same or their going to be improvements in the plan and numbers?

[Singha]

assuming 33% subs will always be in dock for some form of refit, and keeping a minimal 4 SSK for covering our rear (Pak), that leaves us a bare 12 SSK to both protect our eastern flank, cover surface action groups and attempt to take the war to china. thats enough to circle the wagons and shiver, not to scare the lizard.

imo we probably need 36 rather than 24, incl 12 very large collins/soryu type SSKs dedicated solely to the attack mission in the pacific seas.

we need to make the south china and east china seas "contested areas" and "unsafe" for the PLAN rather than a secure backyard from which to contest for the indian ocean or bay of bengal. this will truly be a major shock for the PLAN having to fight for control of their own backyard rather than sitting pretty and using others to pinprick us. in WW2 a fleet of around 9 USN Balao class subs penetrated the sea of japan past minefields in the south (using the worlds first sets of submarine mine avoidance sonar developed in UC san diego) and raided for 2 weeks before escaping north of hokkaido with the loss of one sub with all hands.

the pacific is not "owned" by the USN or PLAN as the thekedars or via inheritance or dowry. its a open ocean and its time we made our presence felt.