J & K news and discussion

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 22 Jan 2011 22:02

saket wrote:Chenab formula proposed by pakistan and rejected by ABV vs

Kasuri coming on UndieTV and talking of joint sovereignty being agreed upon without any denial by MMS-GoI

Massive == going on here ..

It is very silly to talk about Chenab formula. While rejecting Chenab plan, ABV proposed Neelum plan. That was the style of Track-II those days.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 22 Jan 2011 22:18

It is very pointless of the BJP to try to raise the flag in Kashmir under the protection of the Army.

The real courage would be to get the Kashmiri's themselves to raise the flag.

Imagine some random UPite shows up in Chennai to raise the Indian flag as a show of strength. It would be offensive to me due to the intent.

prahaar · Post by **prahaar** » 22 Jan 2011 22:21

@Theo_Fidel, If population in Chennai is Anti-Indian-National-Flag, then offensive or not, show of strength to raise national flag is not only legal, it is necessary. UP OR MP OR KARNATAKA, the state or other narrow differences of nationalists is immaterial.

Dhiman · Post by **Dhiman** » 22 Jan 2011 22:35

munna wrote:A gentle request to my posters, the bottom-line ...

The bottom line is that it is well accepted to raise Pakistani flag in the valley, but not Indian flag.

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 22 Jan 2011 22:37

Random UP guys showing up and doing things are always not of significance. The chief minister of UP should show up and hoist the national flag anywhere in India, including chennai. That would be the courage.

On similar lines, preferably an ex-Rajya sabha MP from Assam, should unfurl the national flag in Lal chowk. That would be the courage. When such non-random guys are preoccupied, then random guys will show up to do the needful. When courage is in deficit, then random guys take up the slack.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 22 Jan 2011 22:50

Theo's point obscured by his unfortunate example is that its a big win if the people of the valley are induced to raise the flag themselves.

Lets not get side tracked.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 22 Jan 2011 22:53

munna wrote:I think we have to understand first what is meant by "giving Kashmir" away! One form is literally the physical one whereby we agree to some unkil or tsp sponsored plan of settlement. It ain't happening and that fact is known to one and all. This tack failed in it's run between 1990-2004. The new tack is to talk Gandhi, democracy, peace and process of normalization. Under this the idea is to soft talk nation into giving seemingly innocuous measures like Sadr-e-riyasat, more subjects under state list and a morE autonomous state legislature. Under the garb of historic peace deal entire nation can be lulled into believing that kasabs of 1990 are Mandelas of today. The idea is to soft slice the territory all the while proclaiming it a victory of democracy meanwhile Jammu and Laddakh will be thrown to the dogs.
Between hoping and praying for common sense from the government and opposing all sundry machinations in our state I choose and support the latter. After Radia and Commonwealth everything in my country carries a tag,

I was thinking over the past couple of days taking into consideration of your post and also Anujan's post ( on the lines of something stupid is cooking in Indian brains....) during the External Affairs Ministy meeting in Islamabad. For both of these posts, I replied that there is nothing on this earth that this goverment can do as they simply do not have numbers. As these views are posted by several other posters too, I had a discussion with likeminded folks to discuss what could the Goverment do to do the selloff.

How they are able to pass teh Nuke deal in Parliament not just by buying votes but there is a mechanism to sell the bills in Parliment. The general consensus is the selloff is a possible if it is packaged appropriately.

In case of Nuke deal, the government packaged it as India will get 3000000000000000000 Gigawats of power cheaply and not as we are freezing ourselves from further nuke testing. The chatterati came out with drums (in Hyd it is called as theen maar/Char maar) saying that all the India's enery woes will be over. The greatest and mightiest deal of the era. However, non-BJP opposition was able to succesfully brand it as anti-Islam as the deal is with US. In addition, there is Chinese support to the non-BJP opposition.

Now the potential packaging by the government to sell off Kashmir valley will be single point strategy - Isolate BJP and isolate it from all including isolation from substantial NDA partners.. Here is the possible mechanism:
(1) In this sell off both China and US will be on one side and so there are no issue of external manouvering. So no Seema Mustafa and MJ Akbar type articles.
(2) Strategize and spin the text and advertisements via its Manish Tiwaris as something extremely secular in nature.
(3) Spin it as no territorial loss, it is something for a brother on India's Kashmir to see his mother in POK. This is a humanitarian thing only.
(4) Make Pakistan look like a fall guy. There will be a lot of Pakistani, ex generals, politicans opposing the deal with India
(5) A lot of INC politicians making threatening statements against Pakistan
(6) For the public, it looks like India is doing a boldest step ever and in that MMS is willing to take an extra step for Kashmir Valley people and he is even risking a war.
(7) US will warn Pak to accept the deal
(8) Indo-Pak deal
(9) The branding for internal consumption will have the following factors:
(a) It is one such deal where the pains of partitions are gone for ever
(b) It is one such thing where Muslims of India can live with no guilt of dividing the nations
(c) It is one such thing where JK Muslims can visit their family members on the otherside freely.
(10) In the interest of lowering tensions - India and Pakistan has devised a fool proof mechanism to make Siachen as no man's land.

Aman ki asha all the way....

This very sweet and secular. SP, Nitish, and all Muslim vote lickers including Left (China will order them to fall in line) will support the bill. The bill gets passed in both RS and LS followed by cultural exchanges between India and Pakistan and cricket too.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 22 Jan 2011 23:30

ramana wrote:What is bothersome is Kasuri says Pranab Mukherjee, a sitting cabinet minister was part of the dialog and yet its being called track two? How can that be as its offical as it gets!
This defacto joint soverignity is a way to get around the PVNR 1992 Lok Sabha resolution which says the whole J&K is Indian.

Too bad for UPA that the Pakis couldn't hold their delight till it gets implemented. Most likely it was a intra-Paki fight(Mushy's gang vs Zardari's gang) over who should get the credit for Kashmir Joint Sovereignity?

Everyone wants to play the game of chicken. This is coming from too much of over confidence. Telangana creation is a game that if you read it happened exactly like the same way. All parties did lip service to get their political dividends. INC, TDP, Chiru passed resolutions that they will give seperate T. However, when someone officially declared the s-h-i-t is allover.

Similar dangerous game is being played by Pranab da and it extremely dangerous because it involves multiple global powers. In his view, no living being on earth can make India compromise on JK. So he thinks making some concilliatory statement will not hurt but will strenthen the focus of MMS to do the undoable. That way MMS could cook his goose while he can replace MMS.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 22 Jan 2011 23:47

Kashmir and nukes were the two shackles on the way to Indian tryst with destiny. Right after WWII there was no doubt that India would go nuclear. The vast literature of the 50s and 60s was when would India go nuclear? all along the INC leadership kept itself in fear like the goat in Birbal's tales and never did the needful to legitimize the way. It was thier pusillanimity that reduced India to a untouchable state all along. once a different leader came and blasted his way out of the labyrinth. The very leaders how hectored India in 1998 came to Delhi and danced with street girls.

Now again we face a similar fork in the road. MMS government wants to de-facto give away Kashmir without the people knowing just as INC gave away Pakistan to get power in India. Just as then the same leadership will moan "patha he nahin chala waise hoga!" "Didn't even know things will turn out like that!"

A major interlocutor of those days said this to a Bay Area BRF group.

This was not the destiny that inspired the Freedom Struggle.

Chanakya said "Kings must be forced to chose in order to change history"

So what the flag hoisting pilgrimage is doing is making people come out of the wood works like worms during earth quake or wood set on fire.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 23 Jan 2011 00:10

Instead of importing Scorpenes, India urgently require bringing French revolution on the double to fix Delhi Darbar. The Mughal Raj of Congress remain a curse on Indian people since 47. Like they say freedom require blood, Lets see how it goes on 26 to watch the first drawing of blood.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 23 Jan 2011 00:17

I'm curious... how many of those involved in this debate have ever resided in Kashmir (not Jammu)?

I hear a lot of 'this is a question of national pride', 'the INC will sell J&K out', 'secular parties are beholden to muslims' etc etc from the majority of forum members. As far as they are concerned any alienation or hostility is limited to a minority that's been instigated by an even smaller minority.

Will the BJP's yatra -

1. Reduce alienation within the 4 million Kashmiris?
2. Engender a sense of patriotism within the less alienated?

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 23 Jan 2011 00:20

Marten wrote:and then move along gradually (when the idea has gained enough exposure) to a state of "Oh, they really don't like us -- let us make this an autonomous state". That is what the current regime is slowly moving to.

It is definitely speculation at this moment, if the current regime is "handing over" J&K. However, you hit the nail on the head. That would be the sentiment of public. There are variations to what you have said. I have personally heard the argument about not conducting plebiscite or "they don't want to live with us, how can we force them to live" ityadi. My guess is this sort of sentiments exist in the educated folks, who think "rationally" and are "modern". People analyze from certain angles - predominantly at the human level; because that is where they operate most of the time. The aam admi is not given information from a strategic point of view, considering national interests or security.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 23 Jan 2011 00:24

Rather, the point is, the minority is vocal and those who cry more get more in todays India. Therefore if you can shut them up, or rather make them behave (i like how this sounds soo ominous and stalinistic, though it isnt), you'd get peace for the larger set of people who just want to get on with their lives and have had enough of the AK-47 and bombs. I suppose thats the idea.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 23 Jan 2011 00:30

Perfecto

Viv S wrote: As far as they are concerned any alienation or hostility is limited to a minority that's been instigated by an even smaller minority.

1. Reduce alienation within the 4 million Kashmiris?

How can people who think that the alienation is limited to a minority speak about the 4 million.

The second question is simpler

2. Engender a sense of patriotism within the less alienated?

They will know that they are not left out to dry and they will take courage, their will to struggle against those who seek to oppress them.

Otherwise they will lose hope.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 23 Jan 2011 00:30

Excellent pots as I scroll back. Just a few more thoughts from my side.

I have been consistent in my view on the flag hosting, but here is what I am uncertain, at least so far on the BJP position. To me, the flag hoisting is more than a symbolic act of asserting India's writ, it is to foster a robust debate on what it is that MMS and his terrorists pal Mush agreed to? Make the aam Indian aware of how important Kashmir is. What is India's bottom line with respect to the Kashmiri Muslim demand for secession etc. So far, I haven't seen BJP press all these issues with the vigor needed.

Now lets dwell on the MMS position (supported I would say by the overwhelming majority of Indians). Can anybody, including those who oppose the flag hoisting, dispute that the reason why MMS does not want the flag hoisting is because that would disrupt the uneasy "calm" that prevails in the valley. He sees, and correctly so, that BJP hosting the flag in the heart of Srinagar, will be a direct assertion of Indian soverignty in face of TSP and its puppeteers in the valley. It will incite a furious reaction, bloodshed could ensue, and 8% or 9% or whatever economic growth could take a hit, and worse, it will be a gift to TSP to go into a tizzy, threaten nuke war, and force US to step in.

Now, any self respecting country would have geared up to take this kind of a challenge head on, but the sad truth is that India will just capitulate under intense pressure, and hence those opposing the flag hoisting would rather not be in this predicament in the first place. What MMS has negotiated with TSP and US is that India would not assert its soverignty, and in return, TSP will scale back its pigLeTs. His gameplan is that slowly, but steadily, take Kashmir out of the headlines, and quietly but patiently start the joint love-making process with TSP in Srinagar, and once it has a reached a point of no return, Kashmir would have all but dissipated from the minds of the Indians.

BJP must force a national debate to flush these issues out.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 23 Jan 2011 00:37

SwamyG:

Yes, I have seen that sentiment (if they don't want to be with us, let them go) expressed by many Indians who do not know the nuts & bolts of how supremely important Kashmir is to India. Thats why, there is no street-level support to BJP on their march. Sorry for being impolite, this is the kind of eunuch thinking that must be flushed out through a robust debate, and BJP should force that.

ShyamSP · Post by **ShyamSP** » 23 Jan 2011 00:43

CRamS wrote:SwamyG:

Yes, I have seen that sentiment (if they don't want to be with us, let them go) expressed by many Indians who do not know the nuts & bolts of how supremely important Kashmir is to India. Thats why, there is no street-level support to BJP on their march. Sorry for being impolite, this is the kind of eunuch thinking that must be flushed out through a robust debate, and BJP should force that.

Yes. If they don't want to be with us, let them go. GOI should bear the expenses for buses and trains.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 23 Jan 2011 00:53

Lets not forget that regardless of what PSers, Die think, the destiny of the muslim population in India will hang on very thin rope and any little spark will start civili war of unprecedented scale .It will be Punjab 47x1000 and blood will be on the hands of current dicision makers. Are they ready to handle this kind of mess and face the music like that of Chinese or Cambodian elites ? Whole world knows the fait of Elite Junta in any revolution.

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 23 Jan 2011 00:59

BJP rallies 50,000 youth to arrive in Jammu for flag hoisting
Omar's gamble may not pay off

There are no immediate answers.But what is clear is that the BJP's flag hoisting is as much of politics as is the move behind stopping it.

So it is not only BJP but also INC and NC and commies friends

BJP wants to play up the flag hoisting issue to "challenge the separatists," who have started hurling threats to all those seeking to celebrate the national festival- Republic day on January 26.

Recall Dileep Padgoankar (one of the interlocuters) saying only a few are interested in azzadi like statement recently.

The ruling coalition,National Conference, in particular, want to prove a point that the " yatra" has the "potential of vitiating peaceful atmosphere in the state," and it was demonstratively working in the interest of peace.

So a threat to disturb the peace by NC INC and terrorists!!

Between these two conflicting stands – BJP asserting the right to hoist Tricolour as Indians anywhere in the country and the separatists' plans to derail it, the state government is caught in a dilemma.

this is no hare brainer- join and hoist the flag. show the might of India and scr*w the terrorists.symbolism does carry a lot of meaning.

Every year Tricolour is hoisted at Lal Chjowk too. Paramilitary forces do it. Since 1991, with few exceptions , one or the other groups, Shiv Sena or Bajrang dal have been sending their small groups to Lal Chowk and hoisting the flag.

This is a victory for the symbolic efforts of ekta yatra by BJP. If so why cant all parties join and hoist the flag. what is stopping them.Shame on INC NC for not participating in it.

On Republic Day the flag is hoisted all across the state, including Srinagar, so why do they want to hoist flag at Lal Chowk," he asked. why not at lal chowk-
But a
counter question
that is being asked in the streets in Jammu is, if the flag is not hoisted at Lal Chowk, will the situation stay calm in Kashmir.
"There is no guarantee," an official admitted.
Then all the more reason for hoisting Indian flag.why grovel before terrorists.It will bring more passion and unity among aam aadmi and help in crushing terrorists.
"We can only make efforts but what might ignite the trouble in 2011 is a secret that Kashmir summer unfolds at the last minute since 2008.," the official said requesting that should not be quoted.

Outside powers trying to undermine GOI.

Sagar and top leadership of National Conference were not in the Valley in 1990s- they had fled to Jammu . They returned only in 1996 only after elections in which National Conference was declared winner on most of the seats.
Until that time, and even during the NC regime, militants were calling shots. More respect to BJP for trying to hoist the flag and assert Indian control.
Today, militancy is at its lowest ebb, and 1992 did not witness as much violence as was the case in the two preceding years or in 1993 and 1994.

so why not now when there is more peace and crush terrorists.

This article is showing the importance of BJP actions which is symbolic but important in the larger context of Indian nationalism.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 23 Jan 2011 01:07

Prem wrote:Lets not forget that regardless of what PSers, Die think, the destiny of the muslim population in India will hang on very thin rope and any little spark will start civili war of unprecedented scale .It will be Punjab 47x1000 and blood will be on the hands of current dicision makers. Are they ready to handle this kind of mess and face the music like that of Chinese or Cambodian elites ? Whole world knows the fait of Elite Junta in any revolution.

Absolutely. To this the Psec argument will be that the poor KMs should not be held hostage to India's communal politics. And its the duty of the Indian state to ensure the welfare of its Muslim citizens against any bloback from giving in to KM's demands. The very same Psecs will argue about KM sentiment regarding the flag hoisting and talk about provacation and why kit would make it difficult for the state administration whose duty it is to protect citzines hoisting their flag. Thus, the Psecs have it both ways.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 23 Jan 2011 01:15

Ajatshatru wrote:2. I totally stopped watching NDTV after Radia tapes expose....but today saw a programme being anchored by Nidhi as the topic was hoisting of flag in Srinagar. It was obvious that some members of audience sitting there had been tutored to raise some anti-BJP questions....anyway, a member of the audience states 'if anything went wrong, would the BJP take responsibility'? I remember the time when the movie 'Bombay' was being released and a delegation from a certain community went to meet the Maharashtra CM and told him in a rather threatening way that there may be law and order problem if this movie is allowed theatrical release in the state. The CM coolly replied 'you don't have to worry about the law and order issue as that is our problem and we know how to deal with it'. And, in contrast, see OA's response today....

I wouldn't take that lightly as "tutored". This is a very important point that has ended up acrimoniously even on BRF. Let me give couple of examples:

(1) During the height of Tawang problem (Dalai Lama visiting etc.) , I believe SSridhar (?) visited some seminar in Chennai. It seems some of the folks suggested that India needs to peacefully negotiate with China and transfer Tawang to China. According to them, India is on some cusp of grand economic growth path and if disrupted it will be disaster for "poor of India"

(2) This is from my brother in India who works in a senior position in a biggy IT firm - The CEO gave an emergency meeting of the entire firm during Operation Parakram times. As per him India may engage in a war against Pakistan. That can potentially have implications like US and western firms putting a large scale travel and other advisories. This in turn could reduce the new projects and new work being shipped to India. One of the girls got up and criticized the Indian government for doing things hastily and not worrying about her life.

You will get innumerable number of folks who argue against escalation of tensions with Pakistan, India fighting for its rights with west etc.

In addition, this also stems from serious selfishness of well to do folks. Like one gentleman said what is there for me as I am from Kerala.

The arguments are same for anything that has longterm national interests:

(1) India is seriously building a lots and lots of lavatories for poor. The focus should not change. The sanctions will make India poor and it cannot build these anymore

(2) Economic growth rate is more important and certain things can wait or even compromised

(3) yada yada

Now there are a host of writers, vested interests who has abundant of fuel in the form of above types to argue against any type of things. Aman Ki asha type movements evolve from this stuff.

The worst part comes when the Governments and parties in power take decisions not based what is in the national interest or long term interests but purely based on pressures from super power. All the above arguments are again fuel to such government and parties.

It is now to score the points over anyone like BJP or even individuals who take a stand against compromises. Operation discredit starts. In this pursuit the modus operandi is:

(1) They are communal and rabid anti this and anti that. This is such a great weapon. Even you can make the individual who support non-compromise can argue against BJP because they are discredited. No one will even have the ability to question if discredited for a purpose.

(2) When their own credibility is under severe strain like 2G scams etc. It is important to make Equal-Equal theories. Do everything like operation remove Yeddi in Karnataka. These things have windfalls. The types that we described above have more fodder to criticize the BJP especially on issues like flag hoisting. This is the successful strategy to pump into brains that BJP is anyway discredited. So do not fall for their nonsense even if it looks like good thing.

Now we have discredited the opposition party and hence we have cut the crap that is against the selloff. But there are bloody armed forces. These a!@#$@#$@#$@#$ have too much of credibility to break the shackles. How to do operation discredit here?

(3) We have over the period of time created a system where without a bribe a pen does not move. The system is so bad that about three generations have grown in that kind of system. Army or even angels have lived through it. Without clout of favors nothing will work. Whether it is BJP, army or angels or Gods, it is impossible to be perfect in India. If you are perfect you will not be even in the fringes of growth. Now I bring out Adarsh type scandals that will discredit Army. The Chauhan gone is anyway useless fellow. But to do my treachery I need to discredit the important institution..

(4) Include MI into some fancied Hindu Terror so that another unblemished intel agency gets all bruised.

(5) Now comes media - it is all for making money. They will make money only if they are with the Government. Again even the pious one to become a visible media outlet, they may have paid several bribes and cut many lines for favors. Otherwise they will not exist. All it needs are phone calls to stop them from exposing Government.

(6) For winning an election, just court the poorest of the poor who will never ever know all these stuff. India's growth is useful in bribing them to vote. Spend the tax payer money indiscriminately but not productively. Just distribute in a way it looks like a gulab jamoon to a hungry person.

In summary, use the dhimmified/egoistic-educated to propagate the loss of credibility of the opposition using a forcefully-bent and friendly media, while discrediting targeted institutions and targeted individuals using the well oiled corrupt system created again with the help media to help the powers and crony capitalist who are desperate to have a handle in India affairs for their geopolitical benefits.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 23 Jan 2011 01:15

Prem,
That is why there wont be a clean break like the partition. IF (and thats a big IF) MMS and cabal are trying to do what many here think they're up to, the modus operandi is to slide things slowly, over a period of many years by building up public apathy. If MMS declares tomorow that we're fed up with J&K, I'm going to let go, the furore will be unimaginable. However, that is never going to happen. Couched in high-falutin words like joint administration, greater autonomy and the likes, the grip will be slowly loosened, if at all.

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 23 Jan 2011 01:27

BJP for all-party unity for flag hoisting

Justifying the plans of flag hoisting in Srinagar by the Bharatiya Janta Party’s Yuva Morcha, BJP President appealed to Congress and National Conference to join them to make the affair an all-party event.

National flag has been hoisted for many years so why not now when there is peace here compared to 1991.
what is preventing the GOI and OA from participation. It would be a huge huge symbolic act when GOI OA and all parties come together to hoist the flag. media will be in abundance.
Is it is cheap petty politics or something else which is kept hidden from the mango Indian for the refusal of all parties to join in it.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 23 Jan 2011 01:41

CRamS,Prasad ji,
None of the Congressi, Die or PSer argument changes the round reality . The time to argue will be long over and the moment Indians are made aware of the betrayal, these people will become target of popular anguish and anger . A little spark and all the false edifice they have build will be burnt down. Lets hope they are cognizant of the the unltimate destiny of French, Chinese and Cambodian elites. When senior Army officer have to make public statement about national security issue then these current ruling elites have lost all the credibiity. IMHO, major reason they act, think like foreigners is that they have gotton away without personally paying for the crimes against country and people. There is no one stoppig them taking people in confidence and assuring them on issues of national importance but The current cabal keep insisting on otherwise at the cost serious national interests.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 23 Jan 2011 01:44

Prem wrote:CRamS,Prasad ji,
None of the Congressi, Die or PSer argument changes the round reality . The time to argue will be long over and the moment Indians are made aware of the betrayal, these people will become target of popular anguish and anger . A little spark and all the false edifice they have build will be burnt down. Lets hope they are cognizant of the the unltimate destiny of French, Chinese and Cambodian elites. When senior Army officer have to make public statement about national security issue then these current ruling elites have lost all the credibiity. IMHO, major reason they act, think like foreigners is that they have gotton away without personally paying for the crimes against country and people. There is no one stoppig them taking people in confidence and assuring them on issues of national importance but The current cabal keep insisting on otherwise at the cost serious national interests.

The entire machinery with all available weapons is working to discredit every single thing/person so that the little spark never happens.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 23 Jan 2011 02:32

Muppala garu,

Why common man, even many BRFites are in that dilemma - should we compromise on economic growth for national interests. We have seen that threadbare. They would bring millions of unnecessary examples and links for simple things.

Look at this tread - The question is BJP wants to raise Indian flag at Lal Chowk. The CM of that state, PM of the nation, the entire media, ruling party; everyone want BJP to stop doing that just because it would upset some separatists and anti-nationals. They call it insaniyat and winning heart and minds. Why didn't they achieve kashmiri hearts and minds before 1992? Who stopped them between 1992 and 2010?

But they don't have any answers except questioning BJP's motives. Does it really matter what is my motive as long as I am doing things that are legal and make the nation proud? These BHLs (Bleeding heart liberals) are worried about peace. These dhimmis don't care about ~200 innocents in Mumbai, but they are worried about 200 sunni fundamentalists in the valley and they call them India's children. These morons claim themselves to be educated and erudite; yet they do not know the difference between a murderer and a law-abiding citizen and that the rule-of-law treats these two types differently.

These are the cowards who let hundreds of terrorist attacks happen, yet claim to make India super power once it achieves wealth.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 23 Jan 2011 02:39

India is a big country , spark will be spontaneous and no one knows if,when and where its will happen. DIEs cant fool all the people all the time. The question to asked them in public must be "are they willing to take the chance"? There is no guarantee that Govt Machinery will obey the order of betryal on such magnitude .
May be this is this why the current crooked corrupt congressi cabal keeping mum on Swiss accounts , the money they can use after leaving the country?

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 23 Jan 2011 03:01

Prem ji,
what is really at stake for government machinery if J&K is surrendered to the Jihadis one way or the other? As long as their jobs are paid for - given that Indians are required to look at economic growth and prosperity only as the supreme driving ideology - all government job-holders have all the logic to support being with the Congress and its minions!

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 23 Jan 2011 03:37

Sanku wrote:Perfecto

How can people who think that the alienation is limited to a minority speak about the 4 million.

What exactly do you mean? Is it that the BJP march has no intention of alleviating any alienation?

The second question is simpler

2. Engender a sense of patriotism within the less alienated?
They will know that they are not left out to dry and they will take courage, their will to struggle against those who seek to oppress them.

Otherwise they will lose hope.

And the BJP is the messiah for those oppressed folks??? Its only amongst the Kashmiri Pandits that the BJP has any legitimacy whatsoever.

Lets be honest, this stunt is only intended to tout its nationalist credentials for benefit of rest of the country. Any expectation of resonance amongst the general unconcerned population, let alone separatists is wishful thinking. The BJP has zero support within Kashmir and therefore little to lose. And of all the mainstream parties, it is the least likely to coax the Kashmiris into the national mainstream.

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 23 Jan 2011 03:55

Why are you so unhappy that BJP is doing it?

archan · Post by **archan** » 23 Jan 2011 04:00

Viv S wrote:..it is the least likely to coax the Kashmiris into the national mainstream.

How many more decades will the nation dance to woo those ... err.. coax those people into the national mainstream? 63 years of mujra is not enough? if there is one thing to be learned from the Chinese and the Israelis, it is how to keep the land you have/want. Land does not belong to anyone, if you cannot control it, someone else will.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 23 Jan 2011 04:02

ravi_ku wrote:Why are you so unhappy that BJP is doing it?

Well because no one there likes it and seeing as the place has gone through a period of extreme turbulence just recently, the rocking of the boat for a political agenda is very irresponsible.

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 23 Jan 2011 04:09

Viv S wrote:
ravi_ku wrote:Why are you so unhappy that BJP is doing it?
Well because no one there likes it and seeing as the place has gone through a period of extreme turbulence just recently, the rocking of the boat for a political agenda is very irresponsible.

You are talking in the air and obfuscating issues with pusillanimous words like "extreme turbulence", "rocking the boat".

What is this "extreme turbulence" you are talking about? Pakistan sponsored riots and marches to push out India from Kashmir.

What is this "rocking the boat" you are talking about? Flying of the Indian flag.

So in other words you are saying

Well because no one there likes it and seeing as the place has gone through a period of "Pakistan sponsored riots and marches to push out India from Kashmir" just recently, the "Flying of the Indian flag" for a political agenda is very irresponsible.

For "your" above statement, all I will say is ***self censor***

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 23 Jan 2011 04:13

archan wrote:
Viv S wrote:..it is the least likely to coax the Kashmiris into the national mainstream.
How many more decades will the nation dance to woo those ... err.. coax those people into the national mainstream? 63 years of mujra is not enough? if there is one thing to be learned from the Chinese and the Israelis, it is how to keep the land you have/want. Land does not belong to anyone, if you cannot control it, someone else will.

So is the aim to show them who the boss is? When did the people's opinion stop mattering?

While the issue may be 63 years old, the insurgency as well as discord flared up just over 20 years ago with the rigged elections of 1987 being the spark. And its been receding rapidly over the last ten years. Faster the communications networks and transport links to the valley are built up, faster its integration will be.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 23 Jan 2011 04:19

ravi_ku wrote: What is this "extreme turbulence" you are talking about? Pakistan sponsored riots and marches to push out India from Kashmir.

Really? 'Pakistan sponsored' is an escapist point of view. The Pakistanis also have their 'CIA/RAW/Mossad sponsored' ideas. Eventually one is going to have reconcile oneself with the fact that alienation exists. And that alienation can be countered without ceding J&K to Pakistan or giving it independence or autonomy.

Also, the BJP is very from being the ideal wagon to carry that out.

What is this "rocking the boat" you are talking about? Flying of the Indian flag.

No. I'm talking about a BJP procession in Kashmir. And don't tell me this march is really about the nation and not politics.

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 23 Jan 2011 04:25

Viv S wrote:So is the aim to show them who the boss is? When did the people's opinion stop mattering?

Who are these "people"? The same people who want to secede from India? in short Indian traitors??

For your kind information, no fundamental right of speech in ANY country (be it USA/UK/France/China/Germany/India) allows them the freedom to secede. Live with it. A country's security and well being overrides concern for such traitors.

While the issue may be 63 years old, the insurgency as well as discord flared up just over 20 years ago with the rigged elections of 1987 being the spark. And its been receding rapidly over the last ten years. Faster the communications networks and transport links to the valley are built up, faster its integration will be.

Let me put it to you as simply as this. There can never be any integration with India, until article 370 exists. That's a fact of life. Unless marriage and business interlinkages start, which cant start until this article is removed, there cannot be any meaningful integration.

Regarding 1987 being the spark of "insurgency", all I will say read more

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 23 Jan 2011 04:27

Viv S wrote:
ravi_ku wrote:Why are you so unhappy that BJP is doing it?
Well because no one there likes it and seeing as the place has gone through a period of extreme turbulence just recently, the rocking of the boat for a political agenda is very irresponsible.

Tough luck to people who dont like it. Flag is something sacred and if few Indian themselves are taking the side of Paki sympathizers and worry about their self inflicted extremeities then just come out straight and join the Paki side . How come the same sensitivity was missing when Kashmiri Pundits were ethenically cleansed from ther ancestral home by these same Kashmiri Muslims. Kashmiri Jihadi problem dont need any immediate solution ,Just manage it and let it burn for few more generations to drive the right message so no one dare to invite the enemy home.

Mahendra · Post by **Mahendra** » 23 Jan 2011 04:30

Don't waste your time Premji

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 23 Jan 2011 04:30

Viv S wrote:
ravi_ku wrote: What is this "extreme turbulence" you are talking about? Pakistan sponsored riots and marches to push out India from Kashmir.
Really? 'Pakistan sponsored' is an escapist point of view. The Pakistanis also have their 'CIA/RAW/Mossad sponsored' ideas. Eventually one is going to have reconcile oneself with the fact that alienation exists. And that alienation can be countered without ceding J&K to Pakistan or giving it independence or autonomy.

Also, the BJP is very from being the ideal wagon to carry that out.

Why your khujli with BJP? Nobody is stopping Congress/CPI to do it.

And again this pusillanimous word "alienation" is simply "PC" word for "seceding from India"

What is this "rocking the boat" you are talking about? Flying of the Indian flag.
No. I'm talking about a BJP procession in Kashmir. And don't tell me this march is really about the nation and not politics.

So BJP doesnt have rights? Being a BJP person somehow excludes all rights to Indians? (Yes, being a Indian traitor excludes one of some rights)
By the way, BJP has already expressed its wish that the procession can be made an all party one, if somebody wishes to join

P.S: Dont forget that the original founder of BJP himself lost his life in a very very similar "procession"

archan · Post by **archan** » 23 Jan 2011 04:34

So is the aim to show them who the boss is?

I am not commenting on BJP or this particular issue. I am talking about this whole decades long process of trying to bring them into "national mainstream". So I wouldn't comment on "what the aim is" because it seems to me the GoI's aims are not always clear to us lesser beings. Now what I can comment on is what, in my opinion, should be the aim. And yes, it should be to show them loud and clear, that this is a part of India and anyone who has a problem with it is welcome to come in the battlefield.

When did the people's opinion stop mattering?

So why not go by people's opinions and give up the land? so some Kashmiri would like to be an Indian while his neighbor would not. So let us make a zig-zag line across all homes and mark "this is India" in front of the house of the first guy and "this is Independent Kashmir" in front of the other's. People's opinions should be respected - they should have the right to decide if they want their hose and owned property to be in a country or not. I am also thinking to make my home a separate country, in fact.

While the issue may be 63 years old, the insurgency as well as discord flared up just over 20 years ago

oh, only 20 years! that makes it sooo much better.

And its been receding rapidly over the last ten years.

Right, and Bharat has paid a heavy, heavy price to achieve that. And even after sacrificing the blood of our best, the immense money from the taxpayer, the situation remains transient. It can reverse back any time. Say for example, unkil wants to leave due to his internal pressures. Imagine what would start happening again. We still need to "convince" the worthies in the valley to "puhleeeze be Indian, puhleeeze". That, after so many Kashmiri Pundits have been brutally massacred and so many of them forced to leave. Their opinion, of course, is not as important.

Faster the communications networks and transport links to the valley are built up, faster its integration will be.

"as soon as X will be done, all will be fine", after X is done it is "no, as soon as Y is done, all will be fine", then "..Z.." How much more money does the Indian taxpayer have to throw in? how many more of our soldiers have to die in "peacekeeping"? Have you seen how much money Kashmir gets as compared to other Indian states?
If they stop making the separatist call, they will stop receiving the extra money. What is the motivation for them to do so, then?