J & K news and discussion

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 23 Jan 2011 13:06

In all these types of talks, I always have this question and never could get IT in my thick skull.

Why are "sensitivities" one sided?

Tamang · Post by **Tamang** » 23 Jan 2011 13:09

Aadarniya MMS uvacha

PM: Don't use R-Day for divisive agendas

In a statement, the PM said the Republic Day was a solemn occasion that joins all Indians in a shared celebration of nationhood. This was not the time to "score political points, embarrass state and local administrations...or to promote divisive agendas."

Dhiman · Post by **Dhiman** » 23 Jan 2011 13:20

Viv S wrote: How did you come to that conclusion?

Here is what I wrote in my previous post: "If my memory of last few years is correct, Kashmir in general can only be in three states..." Note the complete lack of any past or hypothetical future comparisons.

Compare the situation today with that five, ten and fifteen years ago. Its not satisfactory today, but there's been a world of change in people's attitude's since. The insurgency for one has been tottering for a while and seems to be on its last legs with India taking strong military and diplomatic steps to counter it as well as the people of the valley losing patience with the cycle of violence engendered by it.

The jist of what you are saying is common knowledge although I find your wording downplaying the gravity of the situation specially when you are so worried that a march to raise national flag will wreak the uneasy relative peace that prevails in the valley today.

Again my main point: irrespective of whether a flag is being raised or irrespective of the relative peace, I think there is a need to demonstrate that the rest of country also has the right to protest in Kashmir, i.e protests in KV are the not the monopoly of the separatists. This will send a strong message to the separatists elements while the rest should not have any problem (as others have stated in this discussion).

If it suits you better look at this way: armed intervention is giving way to protest intervention as the situation in valley improves.

Yusuf · Post by **Yusuf** » 23 Jan 2011 13:27

From strategic and energy security point of view, looking at the map of entire state of

Jammu and Kashmir including the parts occupied by Pakistan, it is imperative to get control

over Gilgit Baltistan.
This will bring in two benefits, one is cut off Pakistan from China and second open up India

directly to Central Asian Region and all its oil and gas.

Taking it forcefully from Pak is an option that might be quite difficult. But as a solution

by talks, could India trade away parts of Kashmir and get the entire GB area into Indian

control? Now that would be difficult for Pak to give back as it cuts them off from China,

but then it should certainly be pursued by India. That land is not only important to us

because it is lawfully ours, but its also important as it will provide us with long term

energy security.

When ever there are talks on Kashmir,they talk of Indian Kashmir only. Why no one ever talks

about ILLEGALLY OCCUPIED KASHMIR by PAK? Why is that the GoI, media everyone toes pak agenda

to talk about the kashmir of India? GB is important for Indian security and energy. The

chinese do recognize that and thats why they are digging in out there in GB. We are going to

be in serious trouble if we disregard that region. India has to put on table the issue of

PoK and GB. start raising it when they meet those scums from across the border. Indian

kashmir is doing well enough. Talk about GB and PoK. GB political parties very recently

asked India to intervene as save them from Pak as GB is legally Indian land. Yet the GoI

failed to respond.

I think if everyone in India starts to talk about it, GoI will be forced to talk about it

and not just follow pak agenda on talks where only Indian Kashmir is the focus.
Even if it is not settled with talks, i would say that small piece of land is worth fighting

for.

Problem is that cutting across party lines, no one seems to force Pakistan on this issue.

That is why they formally annexed Gilgit Baltistan and changed the status quo of the entire

state of Jammu and Kashmir.First ABV and now MMS are looking for legacy and be the one to go

down in history as the one to solve the kashmir issue and they might end up short selling

India and lose strategic lands. With the recent statement by Kasuri that they were close to

resolving the issue,it must be made sure that any resolution on kashmir is ratified only by

a 2/3rd majority in parliament so that no unilateral decision is taken.

Consistent pressure has to be mounted on the govt to make sure this issue remains on the

agenda and not the one that is brought by pakistan.

geeth · Post by **geeth** » 23 Jan 2011 14:03

Sum total of last three pages..

They (anti-nationals, traitors, converts,etc) better do what we tell them to or else...

Isn't that what state power is all about? Or else, why do Goondas/Spies are put behind bars?(I don't know what exactly you mean by converts)

The truth is the more we try to integrate them the more we will alienate them. Coming from TN this is blazingly obvious to me. They are different from everyone, just as Tamils are different from everyone else or Naga's are different.

IMO, exactly opposite has happened before, and is happening now...Jinnah said Muslims are different, so they wanted a separate country, because under Hindus, they didn't expect justice (ofcourse, opposite is not true!). In Tamil Nadu, Dravidian parties propagated the theory that Tamilians are different, they have a different culture, so they won't learn Hindi (or even toyed with the idea of secession)..Same with Khalistanis, Nagas, Muslims in Hyderabad..etc etc. Who ever wants to secede, say they are different (what other reason would they tell their people?). It is the self centered interests of few, which is forcing the idea of "Difference". Why the Kashmiri Muslims never felt different under a Hindu King or before Jinnah came up with the idea of Pakistan? Why the (once) Khalistanis do not feel 'different' anymore in Punjab?

They have to find their own way just like everyone else. We can't tell them how to do it. It is easy to call kashmiri's anti-national but we should remember they were loyal to us under some seriously trying circumstances. People change.

If they can't find their own way, it is the duty of Indian Republic to show them the way ; if they refuse to take the path shown, put them in that path by force if required. It has worked in the past in Punjab - why it can't work in Kashmir? Repeal article 370 and do not give any special treatment to Kashmiris. As you say, let them find their way.

Imagine for instance Tamils had a separate country in Lanka. Would a Tamil be anti-national every time he expressed some sympathy or identified with a foreign Tamil nation.

The Tamils in Lanka had genuine grievances. But LTTE with their violent methods lost all the goodwill from everyone. Then the foreign powers tried to fish in troubled waters by using LTTE as a pawn in their hands.. If any Tamilian supported these nefarious activities of these foreign powers, they he is definetely an anti-national, and should be treated like one.

The only truth (this is NOT a victory) is to find a way to get Kashmiri's to raise the flag themselves. I have no doubt in my mind that one day they will.

I don't think that is something the nation cannot enforce on any individual. If he/she is patriotic enough, he/she will do it spontaneously on occasions like Republic day. What the state/centre should do is to ensure that any and all individuals have the freedom to raise the National Flag on occasions like Republic day ; If anybody puts a hurdle, then book him under the appropriate law, instead of saying that the sentiments of the criminal will be hurt.

Can I call myself an Indian with any pride? Which other self respecting Republic will allow such nonsense to go on with able support from the Prime Minister and his Cabinet Ministers?

Anindya · Post by **Anindya** » 23 Jan 2011 14:33

http://www.zeenews.com/news682585.html

BJP activists on 'yatra' to J&K sent back home

Ahmednagar: Police and railway officials here hoodwinked Bharatiya Janata Party activists headed to Jammu and Kashmir for the Republic Day flag hoisting and shunted their special train back to Karnataka early Sunday.

The Bengaluru-New Delhi Karnataka Express, whose 18 bogies were full of Karnataka BJP youth activists, arrived at Sarola station in the district and was due for onward departure to the north.
....
When the train halted here, they blacked out Sarola railway station.

Taking advantage of the blanket of darkness, they detached the train's engine and attached it to the rear of the train.Two more bogies with around 150 Railway Protection Force personnel were also attached to the train and around 1.30 am, it "started" its journey - but in the reverse direction and back to Karnataka.

It was only too late when the BJP workers, many of them fast asleep, in the train realised that they had been taken for a ride and halted the train at Nagansur station on the Maharashtra-Karnataka border.

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 23 Jan 2011 14:37

Anindya wrote:http://www.zeenews.com/news682585.html

BJP activists on 'yatra' to J&K sent back home

Ahmednagar: Police and railway officials here hoodwinked Bharatiya Janata Party activists headed to Jammu and Kashmir for the Republic Day flag hoisting and shunted their special train back to Karnataka early Sunday.

The Bengaluru-New Delhi Karnataka Express, whose 18 bogies were full of Karnataka BJP youth activists, arrived at Sarola station in the district and was due for onward departure to the north.
....
When the train halted here, they blacked out Sarola railway station.

Taking advantage of the blanket of darkness, they detached the train's engine and attached it to the rear of the train.Two more bogies with around 150 Railway Protection Force personnel were also attached to the train and around 1.30 am, it "started" its journey - but in the reverse direction and back to Karnataka.

It was only too late when the BJP workers, many of them fast asleep, in the train realised that they had been taken for a ride and halted the train at Nagansur station on the Maharashtra-Karnataka border.

can the railway minister Mamatha Banerjee, railway divisional manager be booked for cheating under section 420, abuse of executive power and kidnapping?

oh I remember, these people are above the Indian constitution.

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 23 Jan 2011 14:49

Tamang wrote:Aadarniya MMS uvacha

PM: Don't use R-Day for divisive agendas

In a statement, the PM said the Republic Day was a solemn occasion that joins all Indians in a shared celebration of nationhood. This was not the time to "score political points, embarrass state and local administrations...or to promote divisive agendas."

Translation: Please do not expose those who are divisive. More importantly please do not expose those who support divisive elements.

Why on earth is this a bad time. No time is good time or bad time. But Republic day is a great day and is earmarked to celebrate the nation. There is nothing bad about this day and also nothing about timings being particularly bad. Hoisting national flag inside India cannot and should not be a problem. How come umbrage. People are grasping for straws here. Politics apart, why should flag hoisting become contentious?
If people do not know who and what are causes for problems and divisivity, then this is a good time to educate them. Nay, the flag unfurling will help those who do not know to learn rapidly.
P.S. Absolutely why not Aadarniya MMS personally unfurl the flag (no no not the white one, but the trianga) to put an end to this so called divisive agenda.

Chandragupta · Post by **Chandragupta** » 23 Jan 2011 14:53

Theo_Fidel wrote:
Imagine for instance Tamils had a separate country in Lanka. Would a Tamil be anti-national every time he expressed some sympathy or identified with a foreign Tamil nation.

To take my example further Imagine a Tamil group, marched into Bangalore uninvited or refused entry, to plant a national flag as a show of strength. I don't think it would be taken lying down. There is not a State in India that would not take umbrage.

The only truth (this is NOT a victory) is to find a way to get Kashmiri's to raise the flag themselves. I have no doubt in my mind that one day they will.

I am sorry but that's one stupid analogy and they just keep coming like that 'random UPites' marching into Chennai. Why would a Tamil group march into Bangalore? Are you comparing Tamils with Kashmiri Sunnis now?

This is not about state politics this is about nationalists telling the separatist & the anti-national KM scum that the land they stand on is Indian & it is going to be that way for eternity. I do not have an iota of sympathy for the people who do not call themselves Indian, have driven out a helpless peaceful minority (and if anyone thinks that 5 lakh pandits were driven out by 500 separatists, they need to have themselves checked for dementia), raise Pakistani flags in an Indian state & indulge in wanton acts of violence against Indian soldiers & security forces. This yatra is a slap in the face of all those religious bigots in Kashmir and if I was a pro-Indian Kashmiri muslim, I'd support this yatra with full fervor. Let the separatists know that if you can gather a thousand people to throw stones & shout anti-Indian slogans, we can gather a hundred thousand nationalist Indians to raise the national flag & sing Vande Mataram in the heart of Kashmir.

sum · Post by **sum** » 23 Jan 2011 14:53

Ahmednagar: Police and railway officials here hoodwinked Bharatiya Janata Party activists headed to Jammu and Kashmir for the Republic Day flag hoisting and shunted their special train back to Karnataka early Sunday.

Sigh.... The dirty tricks dept of the IB/agencies have been let loose onto their own countrymen instead of being used against the enemy?

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 23 Jan 2011 14:59

The choice is clear.
Everyone wants to hoist flag.
Some want it to be white.
Most want it to be Trianga.
One can only give thousand different reasons why they choose the colour they like. So, the choice is obvious. While some may feel there is a third colour which is green, for them BENIS is a good thread to discuss such matters.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 23 Jan 2011 15:41

^^^ROFL jwalamukhi. Good one.

Raisin' the white flag, eh? Then 1 won't do, 72 will be needed only.

meanwhile, business as usual at the white flag ~~orifice~~ office

Lal Chowk flag hoisting will be an insult: Omar (TOI web front page)

Venkarl · Post by **Venkarl** » 23 Jan 2011 16:30

....Its should be understood that the very obvious feature and fact that a democratic country has Center, Left and Right wings in its polity. Every wing has its own interests with their own set of ideologies. Now, which ideology is good for masses of India will be decided by masses alone. Apart from these interests, one thing that stands apart is the concern for security and integrity of India in its wholeness by any of these wings.
I may have seen Center wing apart from its interests, it batted for national security but never on integrity. Its intentions and actions were never clear to common public and were successful many times in confusing masses. I'd not talk about Left as they have never demonstrated anything in the interest of security or integrity of India AFAIK. Last but not least, Right wing known for its religious attachment, have been thrashed many times in media because of unfortunate and condemnable incidents like Babri or Godhra or anti-Church acts in Orissa. First being Hindutva sentiment, they have displayed and demonstrated many a times that their ideology overlaps with the causes of National Security and Integrity. Flag hoisting of Tricolor at Lalchowk could be an attempt by Right Wing to demonstrate that it is concerned for India's integrity first....now many leftists, Seculars and Centrists believe and argue that this demonstration of Integrity by Right wing will disturb the Security situation in the valley......Right wing has made it crystal clear on its intentions about integrity of India first and then Security...what about L, S and C ists? What do they bat for? Integrity or Security? Are they willing or hinting that they can trade Integrity for Security? or can they assure Integrity to masses of India by downplaying Integrity now? What do masses of India want? Integrity or Security of India?

Do masses have to personally experience anti-security or anti-integrity incidents/events to understand and decide which is important to them?

I may be leftist or secularist or centrist today as long as my house and my family are untouched and are in order...but what if they are touched? Will I not rebel against them who intend to "touch" my family/house in my face against my will? And will I be labeled as Right Winger then? Now replace "My House/Family" with "My Country"? What will you do? trade it off or do what is needed to ensure its integrity? There is not a single nation on this earth which has earned its integrity without bloodshed where in security situation was often compromised? And if you think this line of thinking is extreme and unacceptable then..

God help India and her children if we are confused on this very fundamental concept of Nation building-- Integrity.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 23 Jan 2011 16:57

Prediction: A crisis will be precipitated in Karnataka in the next 2 days that divides the attention of the national BJP leadership. The moves started 2 days ago. The complaints against Yedi have been known for week - and it is too much of a coincidence that permission has been given to file a case against the CM.

Politics is a game of chess.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 23 Jan 2011 17:09

kit wrote:x posting

Time for India to declare its CORE interests.That would mean it is non negotiable.How about Kashmir and Arunachal for starters ?

India's CORE interests range from the Straits of Malacca to the Gulf of Hormuz...Arunachal and Kashmir are part of the Union, not "core interests"...Not anymore than Maharashtra is our "core interest", or West Bengal...

The problem lies herein..The more we "mark out" the issue, more of an issue it becomes..

Its not as if the flag is not being hoisted in J&K...But by insisting on a publicised yatra, while the core benefits (barrgin the rhetorical) arent clear, the core drawbacks are..

Terrorists and insurgents generically survive on the oxygen of publicity...A yatra of this sort, with saturtation media coverage, incesant statements by all and sundry, and the expected militant attempts to sabotage only brings the "Kashmir issue" on the international discussion templates again...There will inevitably the usual questions to the Us State department, the UK Foreign Office and the like, and each word of the respnse would be scrutinised and analysed to death..God forbid, if there are police firings against mobs protesting against the hoisting and a few people are killed - some more oxygen to the fire...If anything, the insurgents would love this, and the security apparatus in Kashmir would really be apprehensive..

Its interesting that BJP thinks this is the right time to hoist the flag in Lal Chowk - wonder why they didnt think likewise when they held the first (and till date only) talks with the Hizbul Mujahideen when they were in power...Wonder why they didnt do that even when the Hizb uniliaterally broke off talks after the first round...Why they didnt do it when ABV was giving his "insaaniyat ke daayre mein" doctrine - interestingly ABV used the phrase when he was being asked whether talks with the militants and Hurriyat will be within the "ambit of the Indian constitution" (a standard bottomline for governments over the years)...They were being creative, as any govt looking to solve the issue would be..But in opposition, they are being cynically political...

munna · Post by **munna** » 23 Jan 2011 18:38

Wow just wow! BRF was always ahead of curve all along, even though at that time I did not support the poor banned posters calling him such. Now even the leader of opposition (a constitutional post and hence he cannot be reported or banned by mods for exercising his right to free expression ) has accused him of "surrender". An Economics Times report

PM's remark on flag hoisting a psychological surrender': BJP

New Delhi, Jan 23 (IANS) The Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) Sunday accused Prime Minister Manmohan Singh of 'psychologically surrendering' to Kashmir separatists by describing the party youth wing's decision to hoist the national flag in Srinagar as 'divisive.'

Senior BJP leader Arun Jaitley told media persons: 'When two people (referring to author Arundhati Roy and Hurriyat leader Syed Ali Shah Geelani) speak in New Delhi about the segregation of the (Jammu and Kashmir) territory, it passes of as a right to free expression. But when as an assertion of India's sovereignty, the national flag is sought to be hoisted in Srinagar, it is dubbed as divisive'.

'No penal action has been taken against these two people when they talked about the segregation of the Kashmir,' Jaitley pointed out.

Venkarl · Post by **Venkarl** » 23 Jan 2011 18:41

BJP attacks PM statement on Lal Chowk flag hoisting

menon s · Post by **menon s** » 23 Jan 2011 18:49

Tavleen Singh

If the BJP wants to be involved in Kashmir why does it not come up with an alternative policy? A solution?
The BJP's problem on Kashmir is that it has always thought about the problem with emotion and not reason
How true?

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 23 Jan 2011 19:04

Is there any policy now that a question of alternative arises? Sending out interlocutors implies that even elections are not good enough indicators of what people want, and that reciprocally the government does not have any idea of what the people want. When the government does not know what the people want, then they cannot claim to have any policy. If without having any policy the government can still enter the state and be there, or the party in gov can go there, why is it necessary for the BJP alone to have an alternative policy?

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 23 Jan 2011 19:10

archan wrote:RamaY, don't get down to name calling. I welcome open debate up to the point when this starts. He has his POV and IMO he is doing a pretty good job of articulating it. You and I don't have to agree cent per cent but you cannot start the name calling business like this. Thanks.

My bad Archanji. I will try to edit those posts or else you can delete them

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 23 Jan 2011 19:21

ravi_ku wrote:<rant of heighest order>
Hey, saying Arunachal Pradesh hurts the sensitivities of the chinese.

How dare you, dhoti clad SDRE include it in core interests when the tallest and deepest friend doesnt like it?
</rant>

This is exactly what a liberal audience said in that Undtv debate and he didn't want to do that.

So no one should talk about any issue of national interest as it would upset someone or other. That is the mode of governance INC brought.

They dont want to do anything except looting the nation as it would upset people.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 23 Jan 2011 19:24

menon s wrote:Tavleen Singh
If the BJP wants to be involved in Kashmir why does it not come up with an alternative policy? A solution?
The BJP's problem on Kashmir is that it has always thought about the problem with emotion and not reason
How true?

deleted. probably i shoul shut my mouth on this topic.
BJP has a very clear solution to J&K. It is abolition of A370, Uniform civil code and recapturing POK.

And she is a well connected and respected commentator. Shame on you Tavleen Singh!

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 23 Jan 2011 19:29

>>This Tavleen Singh is probably mourning her loss.

Uncalled for and unseemly here on BRF. Please consider this a caution.

munna · Post by **munna** » 23 Jan 2011 19:38

RamaY wrote: BJP has a very clear solution to J&K. It is abolition of A370, Uniform civil code and recapturing POK.!

But the solution should not hurt human sensitivities of all barring the KPs and nationalists since as per liberatti they fall in sub human category. It seems like our so called intelligentsia has defined it's own wajib ul qatl list comprising of above mentioned groupings.

Nevertheless it is great to have a time stamp and paper trail of who is doing what in these times! This round was over the day government got desperate and exposed it's hand rest is all academic name and shame now. Leave poor Tavleen aside she is asking a rhetorical question to elicit a reply and that is not a criticism by any means.

Venkarl · Post by **Venkarl** » 23 Jan 2011 19:41

menon s wrote:Tavleen Singh
If the BJP wants to be involved in Kashmir why does it not come up with an alternative policy? A solution?
The BJP's problem on Kashmir is that it has always thought about the problem with emotion and not reason
How true?

Yes Sir..forget BJP or Sangh...Bharat Mata ki jab baat hoti hai..it ought to be emotional matter for any Indian...its not some goddamn business or some experiment in a lab to reason....matter is simple... various Indian PMs, HMs, DMs, Defense Chiefs, Ambassadors to UN and other nations have all said that "Kashmir is an integral part of India" on various occasions..is it about just "words"?..Flag hoisting is a part of the solution in the process of full integration of Kashmir into India...for a problem like this...Indianness in Kashmiris has to grow slowly..there cannot be any out of the box solution which can make all stake holders happy overnight....now Pakistan is not a stake holder here. Kashmiris, Punjabis, Gujjus, Assamese, Mallus etc irrespective of any religion are the stake holders....

menon s · Post by **menon s** » 23 Jan 2011 19:48

BJP has a very clear solution to J&K. It is abolition of A370, Uniform civil code and recapturing POK.

How about Aksai Chin and Shakhsgam Valley? How about, Gilgit Baltistan? Are they too included in the brief, of BJP`S policy. And dear sir, could you also mention a time frame to achieve these objectives? I would be blessed guruji.

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 23 Jan 2011 19:51

Venkarl wrote: Yes Sir..forget BJP or Sangh...Bharat Mata ki jab baat hoti hai..it ought to be emotional matter for any Indian...its not some goddamn business or some experiment in a lab to reason....matter is simple... various Indian PMs, HMs, DMs, Defense Chiefs, Ambassadors to UN and other nations have all said that "Kashmir is an integral part of India" on various occasions..is it about just "words"?..Flag hoisting is a part of the solution in the process of full integration of Kashmir into India...for a problem like this...Indianness in Kashmiris has to grow slowly..

Correct! Flag hoisting is part of the solution. It will allow truth to surface. Because many a PMs, HMs, etc., are never tired of proclaiming that everything is hunky dory on constitutional papers. What better way to put it litmus test, if those statements are said truly and meant truly. It is test of all the words that various politicians spoke about integral part spiel. It is time to ensure words are truly meant, and republic day is a great day to verify their statements.
No need to keep public in the dark, if they are merely playing with words. Let it not be empty words. Words are dime a dozen. No partisanship needed. Is part of the nation truly fully secure and free?

Venkarl · Post by **Venkarl** » 23 Jan 2011 19:56

Well...at least Kashmir and POK{G & B} are included in BJP policy's brief..I hope communists have Aksai Chin and S Valley on their policy brief

sorry to poke in...I am sure RamaY will give us a better answer.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 23 Jan 2011 20:01

menon s wrote:
BJP has a very clear solution to J&K. It is abolition of A370, Uniform civil code and recapturing POK.
How about Aksai Chin and Shakhsgam Valley? How about, Gilgit Baltistan? Are they too included in the brief, of BJP`S policy. And dear sir, could you also mention a time frame to achieve these objectives? I would be blessed guruji.

My friend,
GB and Shakhsgam Valley are part of POK. As far as India is concerned J&K and NA are one entity. Please refer POK thread.

Aksai Chin - we need to settle this score with China along with Tibet. Please refer China threads.

Regarding time frame and strategy, they are being discussed in other threads. Please bring it up there and we can discuss.

menon s · Post by **menon s** » 23 Jan 2011 20:15

Venkarl wrote:Well...at least Kashmir and POK are included in BJP policy's brief..I hope communists have Aksai Chin and S Valley on their policy brief

sorry to poke in...I am sure RamaY will give us a better answer.

Atleast

why that word atleast sir? Sounds like some excuse. No sir, for a person of such high emotion like you, doubts and excuses should not be there! Tell me a time frame, tell me how you are going to achieve it? If you are convincing, i promise you i will change my views.

menon s · Post by **menon s** » 23 Jan 2011 20:24

RamaY, Sir, Thank you, i got my point. There is a Tamil saying, "nenacha naan puliye pudippen, aana nenekka maten"! Translation, will destroy its beauty. Thank you once again.

munna · Post by **munna** » 23 Jan 2011 20:27

Since BJP's J&K policy is being asked about (what these yindoos have a policy?). Here is a nice articulation of it and a questioning of government stance by the leaders of opposition in LS and RS. This memo was submitted ON RECORD to the Prime of Minister of India and office. The publication mane other articles and is a nice thing to chew for policy wonks.

AFSPA position publication: BJP
Quoting from page 4

While government is formulating it's political position it mus necessarily ponder over the question whether it's policy of past 63 years has evolved the situtation from status to separatism. Any step to be taken must be judged on the touchstone of whether it will fully integrate state with India or will it further weaken the political and constitutional relationship of state with India. The problems in the state emanate from cross border terrorism, internal insurgency, lack of economic development and inter regional discrimination. Does any of the problem or proposed solution has anything to do with inadequacy of power both legislative or executive in that state? The Central Government's powers are confined to security, defense of India, currency, foreign relations and telecommunications. Are we in a position to abdicate any of these? Are we in a position to even back and suggest that jurisdiction of Supreme Court and Election Commission will not extend to the state as some demanded?
Let us not mislead ourselves. The demand for autonomy, self-rule and dilution of central Government's authority have nothing to do with problems of Kashmir valley. Autonomy or self-rule are only interim steps towards 'azadi'. The people of India will never accept wither of these

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 23 Jan 2011 20:35

Yusuf wrote:From strategic and energy security point of view, looking at the map of entire state of

Jammu and Kashmir including the parts occupied by Pakistan, it is imperative to get control

over Gilgit Baltistan.
...

When ever there are talks on Kashmir,they talk of Indian Kashmir only. Why no one ever talks

about ILLEGALLY OCCUPIED KASHMIR by PAK? Why is that the GoI, media everyone toes pak agenda

to talk about the kashmir of India? ...

Yusuf ji,

Great post. My pranams to you.

I will touch your second point first. As far as India is concerned there are two issues with regards to J&K accession.
- POK under Paki control along with areas it ceded to China
- Cross-border terrorism in Kashmir valley in the name of disputed settlement.

If GOI has any vision and backbone, it would always maintain this point and discuss about POK and POK only with Pakistan and handle Kashmir valley terrorism exactly the same way it handled Khalistan terrorism (you can see the parallels here especially w.r.t Paki hand).

But in this effort GOI has two formidable opponents
- Internal secular brigade. This included people who think fight against terrorism is also violence.
- Geopolitical players like USA, UK and PRC etc.,

The internal audience could have been reeducated easily if GOI wants to. But for some strange reason (vote bank politics) INC doesn't want to do it. A chanikyan strategy there could be that they never accepted 1947 partition and are hoping to absorb Pakistan too one day, and they do not want to disturb that potential vote bank. There a wonderful story on such thought process called "donkey's dream". I will tell you that story in humor thread as it is kind of non-kosher in the other threads. The post is here http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 5#p1016235

Once GOI does this, it need not worry much about the external players as they would have very little hold on internal players. This is why we have strategic leadership thread.

In summary GOI doesn't do what it supposed to do. Why? In my honest opinion, it has a lot to do with people's understanding of religions. Hinduism is a pluralistic world-view where as Islam and Christianity have a different world-view and at times they can turn violent to emphasize that world view. The secularists want to treat all these conflicting world views equally, which is good when they are handled individually, but becomes a nonsensical approach when the issue involves two conflicting world-views. We have off-topic thread to discuss this.

So the problem has multiple layers of evolution
* National psyche - pluralism, secularism etc.,
* Governance - Treating all types of terrorism equally and enforcement of rule of law as paramount.
* Geopolitics - Ensuring that external players are denied hold on internal dynamics.

This is the discussion we have in strategic future scenarios thread mainly

***
Coming to your first point, let us see this problem from game theory pov

Reward - entire J&K state
Players - India, Pakistan, China

India - Wants entire J&K. Holds Jammu, Ladakh, and Kashmir Valley.
Pak - Wants dismemberment of India. Holds POK, NA, donated some areas to China
China - Wants to undermine India. Holds Aksai-chin and other areas donated by Pakistan

India - Claims POK&NA but puts less than 1% focus on it. Focus on Kashmir valley terrorism is <5% of its national resources (money, army, media, policy, and so on). Weakened its position by giving A370. Assuming India's strength is 100 points it puts 5 points on JK.

Pakistan - Claims entire J&K and puts 100% focus on it by linking every national and local issue (water, floods, drought, earth-quakes, terrorism, corruption, poverty, media, bollywood and what not) to J&K. Puts >70% of its national resources towards this. Strengthened its position by unilaterally giving some areas to China. Assuming Pakistan's strength is 20 points (related to India) it puts 14 points on J&K (this is double India's strength).

China - Holds Aksaichin. Puts 20% of its resources on this theater (Tibet, Aksai-chin and facing indian NE). Assuming China strength is 200 points, this is whopping 40 points in the game.

Given this, India is in no position to negotiate at this point. If its position is that entire J&K is India's then what is the basis for NA for Valley argument? It will lose both NA (which it doesn't control as of today) and Kashmir valley (which it is willing to) forever.

At this point all India has to focus on first things first, as outlined above.

* Remove A370. It will lead to riots and protests in valley. Crush them without remorse. Permanent peace will come to valley in 3-5 years.

* Claim entire J&K and talk only about that. If Pakistan is stupid enough to go to war, prepare for it and embrace it wholeheartedly.

* Build internal cohesion on core national interests by spelling them out in clear terms and offering factual answers to minority and liberal concerns.

* A successful war on J&K will get India a UNSC seat.

* Use that to claim Tibet, Aksaichin and go to next round.

China -

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 23 Jan 2011 20:54

RamaY wrote:India - Claims POK&NA but puts less than 1% focus on it. Focus on Kashmir valley terrorism is <5% of its national resources (money, army, media, policy, and so on). Weakened its position by giving A370. Assuming India's strength is 100 points it puts 5 points on JK.

Pakistan - Claims entire J&K and puts 100% focus on it by linking every national and local issue (water, floods, drought, earth-quakes, terrorism, corruption, poverty, media, bollywood and what not) to J&K. Puts >70% of its national resources towards this. Strengthened its position by unilaterally giving some areas to China. Assuming Pakistan's strength is 20 points (related to India) it puts 14 points on J&K (this is double India's strength).

Problems RamaYji...<5% of our national resources (money?) - well that would be about 65 billion dollars...I dont think we spend anywhere close to that on J&K..Ditto, 70% of Pak national resources would be about 120 billion dollars..They dnt spend anyting like that - in fact the insurgency in J&K is a low cost option for them (remember Zia's bleed through 1000 cuts?)..

About the conclusions:

RamaY wrote:* Remove A370. It will lead to riots and protests in valley. Crush them without remorse. Permanent peace will come to valley in 3-5 years.

* A successful war on J&K will get India a UNSC seat.

* Use that to claim Tibet, Aksaichin and go to next round.

How does removal of Art 370 help in anti insurgency efforts?
How does a war on J&K help us get a nuke seat?
"Claim Tibet" - What is the basis? And above all, what is our capability there even defensively for us to start "claiming" Tibet? Forward policy redux?

Venkarl · Post by **Venkarl** » 23 Jan 2011 20:54

menon s wrote:
Venkarl wrote:Well...at least Kashmir and POK are included in BJP policy's brief..I hope communists have Aksai Chin and S Valley on their policy brief

sorry to poke in...I am sure RamaY will give us a better answer.
Atleast why that word atleast sir? Sounds like some excuse. No sir, for a person of such high emotion like you, doubts and excuses should not be there! (nice defense mechanism)....

No Sir, It is not any excuse or a doubt in the remotest thoughts....its a relief that among 3 major national parties {INC, CPI and BJP}....one party has a clear stance of reuniting POK and reintegrating Kashmir with Indian Union....

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 23 Jan 2011 20:55

http://www.hindustantimes.com/rssfeed/M ... 53687.aspx

BJP activists taken for a ride; J&K-bound train sent back

Police and railway officials here hoodwinked Bharatiya Janata Party activists headed to Jammu and Kashmir for the Republic Day flag hoisting and shunted their special train back to Karnataka early Sunday. The Bengaluru-New Delhi Karnataka Express, whose 18 bogies were full of Karnataka BJP youth
activists, arrived at Sarola station in the district and was due for onward departure to the north.

The activists, estimated at around 1,500, were scheduled to join other colleagues from different states for the party's Tiranga Yatra in Srinagar Jan 26.

However, the centre and Jammu and Kashmir government have already announced that political activists from other states would not be allowed to create mischief. The local railway authorities here acted swiftly to thwart the onward journey of the train.

When the train halted here, they blacked out Sarola railway station.

Taking advantage of the blanket of darkness, they detached the train's engine and attached it to the rear of the train.

Two more bogies with around 150 Railway Protection Force personnel were also attached to the train and around 1.30 a.m., it "started" its journey - but in the reverse direction and back to Karnataka.

It was only too late when the BJP workers, many of them fast asleep, in the train realized that they had been taken for a ride and halted the train at Nagansur station on the Maharashtra-Karnataka border.

The activists can now burn down the Google building in Bangalore because Google maps shows Arunachal Pradesh as part of China.

Venkarl · Post by **Venkarl** » 23 Jan 2011 21:04

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 23 Jan 2011 21:06

Somanath garu,

That is why I said national resources = (money, army, media, policy, and so on)

I was talking about the opportunity cost of J&K issue to India.

Same with Pakistan. More that 75% of TSPA existence is based on J&K.

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 23 Jan 2011 21:09

searched google
got this results
1) videos for pakistan flag at lala chowk

pakistan flag was unfurled at lal chowk last year and you tube videos are present. I cant find Indian flag at lal chowk at all. you can see the crowds there.
why is there mollycoddling of terrorists.

2) videos-Indian flag at lal chowk

why cant Indians go and unfurl the tiranga at lal chowk.

3) videos pakistan flag at lal chowk- 1998-2005

This period covers the NDA rule. No pakistan flag videos.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 23 Jan 2011 21:11

somnath wrote:How does removal of Art 370 help in anti insurgency efforts?
How does a war on J&K help us get a nuke seat?
"Claim Tibet" - What is the basis? And above all, what is our capability there even defensively for us to start "claiming" Tibet? Forward policy redux?

Repeal of A370 will allow GOI to act on JK terrorism the same way as it did on Khalistan terrorists. And we know what happened to Khalistan demand!

See the geopolitical investments in J&K and you will see how it will get a UNSC seat for India.

If you notice, GOI already "talks" about Tibet. Pls read MFA statements after Hu's visit last month. That "talks" about Tibet can easily converted into "Claims".