J & K news and discussion

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 25 Jan 2011 03:47

I guess thats Shekar Gupta of Ind Exp writing.What is the solution in his opinion? He doesn't offer any but pretends he is wiser and more knowledgable. Its a no brainer ediotrial. Asking BJP to not do what its set out to do many months ago and not offering any reasons is humbug. But par for the course for him who kowtows to Mushy.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 25 Jan 2011 03:50

somnath wrote:
Airavat wrote:The Instrument of Accession in all cases was signed by the rulers of princely states, in this case Maharaja Hari Singh. The special status was bestowed on J&k thanks to that *&%# Nehru and his installation of Sheikh Abdullah as dictator of the state without the due electoral process.
That is not quite correct. There was no one single template of the Isntrument of Accession..Every princely state signed (a slightly different) variant..The one signed by Hari Singh "agreed to accede to the Dominion of India on condition that the state retain its own constitution and autonomy in all matters except defense, currency and foreign affairs". Article 370 was promulgated in order to reflect the specific Instrument of Accession signed by Hari Singh...
.

Wow. History is being invented before our eyes!

Here is the exact, full text of the Instrument of Accession that Hari Singh signed.

http://www.kashmir-information.com/hist ... s/113.html

Is there any mention here of "on condition that the state retain its own constitution and autonomy in all matters except defense, currency, and foreign affairs?"

What about in this document: http://www.kashmir-information.com/hist ... s/112.html being the letter of Hari Singh to Mountbatten declaring his intent to accede to India? Do we see him applying any such "conditions" to the accession?

Let's not stop there, though... here is the Constitution of the State of Jammu & Kashmir, 1956. Do any of these fictional pretensions to "autonomy in all matters except relating to defense, foreign affairs and currency" appear here? http://www.kashmir-information.com/hist ... s/140.html

This, by the way, was drafted by a constituent assembly democratically elected by the people of J&K, under the auspices of the Indian government.

Is there, in fact, any referenceable source for the bolded phrase in the post I'm replying to? Or is the insertion of legalese-sounding verbiage at one's whim and fancy, supposed to lend credibility to an appalling distortion of the facts?

Such as the fact that Article 370 (November 17, 1952) had no connection whatever to the Instrument of Accession signed by Hari Singh (October 26, 1947)? Hari Singh had been irrelevant for five years by the time Article 370 was enacted.

What really makes one wonder is the fervour with which these straws are grasped at... the blatant, repeated falsification of things that happened in our country not very long ago, in order to seed an impression that the history of J&K within India as we know it is flawed. The charitable view is that this is a matter of omission, and an honest mistake.

However, when it comes from a poster who apparently prides himself on having referenceable facts and "peer-reviewed" documentation to back up his other assertions... one must wonder at the uncharacteristic "carelessness" on display here. And what purpose it is really intended to serve.

On further googling, I note that the phrase "on condition that the state retain its own constitution and autonomy in all matters except defense, currency, and foreign affairs?" appears, not in ANY legal document actually signed by the parties in question, but rather in:
http://books.google.co.in/books?id=i5cR ... &q&f=false

A very unbiased source (surely "peer-reviewed" as well), called
Patricia Gossman, Vincent Iacopino, Physicians for Human Rights,”The crackdown in Kashmir: Torture of Detainees and Assaults on the Medical Profession" (1993.)

Now, given its origins, the poster's citation of this document in preference to the actual legal documents in question makes more sense. It's probably where the Mainos have learned their history of J&K as well.

munna · Post by **munna** » 25 Jan 2011 03:51

The situation analysis of camps:

Camp Nationalist: Very interestingly poised match, BJP having drawn the first blood after a long buildup. Sushma Swaraj has clearly emerged as the speahead of the campaign while Jaitley is providing the chankian strategy. The idea of three most powerful next gen leaders' direct foray into the state even before Anurag's march forth was a nice one that has generated enough heat and fury to keep the pot warm. The government of India has signally "failed" with all its might to prevent a buildup of YM workers both within and outside and state. Applying the logic of self selection and filtering all the workers who have got in must be the die-hard ones and not easy riders looking for a vacation only to get a@# busted by JKP and CRPF. I thought and I was proven wrong that BJP would give up ghost after having made a point and then it will be business as usual. The leadership has apparently found some traction* within the national public contrary to what radia media blabbers. The Dilli based generals of BJP are holding forth against the usual media barbs and are rallying the depleted resources in HQ to build a case. The government has gone all out to discredit the yatra and hence usual suspects are unable to suppress their urge for pissing into other's pie. However the party is in a bounce mode with national president saying "

" to allies in the east after he did the same to the marathi manus ones in the west. Himachal, Punjab and Uttarakhand BJP have really turned on the gas and have gone all out to back this rally.

Camp Sarkar (GOI): Silence, disperse and shame are the buzz words! The first one is to suppress any information about the brutal tactics that will be at display at the bridge and also within the state. Second is to somehow shock and awe the entire crowd to run for their lives and at the same time make it quick. The third one has already kicked into action with every media columnist and his uncle piling on the BJP as if they are going to hoist a Pak flag. However the smart alecs do not understand that they burnt their bridges with BJP long ago. Whatever they say or do not say will not deter or shame them. In fact any supporter of BJP by now would have stopped caring about any media whatsoever. So there is a big gaping hole in their strategy to shame the BJP as it turns out that it has become immune to their hacks and chaperones.

Camp Chotee Sarkar (J&K): Jittery and desperate. The aim based upon the distribution of forces seems to shut the Jammu city air tight. The bridge will in all possibility be just a first hurdle that shall be used to maim and spook the crowd. Given the amount of companies deployed in Jammu I can sense that local intelligence has warned the chotee sarkar that people are in a mood to join the yatra and hence Jammu shall be suppressed. However I am very worried after the attitude display of some officials who are really drunk on the patronage of some political party. They should expect a reality check if the opposition ever comes to power. The treatment of LoPs (Leader of Opposition) of RS and LS was shabby and unwarranted bear in mind both are frontrunners for either HM or PM (presiding over IPS and IAS respectively) when NDA sniffs power. If I were them (officials) I will be a little courteous plus totally apolitical and not treat them like two bit political workers. Given such a polarized and edgy chotee sarkar it is a volatile mix that YM faces.

Camp Blah Blah Assorted regional neta-jis, editor-ganas, has been grandees with delusions of grandeur and unelected position holders. These will turn on the volume to a crescendo to drown out the events in radia media, mostly harmless and influence less. Do not pay much attention to them as they are no players in this joust.

Personally I would avoid any stand off of workers with any weapon bearing force but then when nobody stood for Kashmiri Pandits under Aurangzeb's rule, Guru Tegh Bahadur ji did it. He faced an uphill battle and so does YM!

*IMPORTANT: Jaitley, Ananth Kumar, Mrs Swaraj and even Anurag constitute this new brand of leaders who do not move a finger without undertaking private polls and surveys

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 25 Jan 2011 04:08

SwamyG wrote:http://www.indianexpress.com/news/Tone-it-down/741896

Dhuppatta's reasoning is deeply flawed. The separatist dogs are not going to tone down their demands for "azaadi" whether or not this march takes place. There were enough balmy touches applied since the last election. This only lead to shriller demands. Time has come to send those dogs a tough message: India will assert its soverignty.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 25 Jan 2011 04:09

I think its only the "Disturbed Areas Act" that allows the deportation form disturbed areas. Is J&K in that law? Is Omar Abduallha taking refuge in a law that he was agaisnt till recently?

Whatever the issue has brought J&K into focus right in the center and there will be lot of attention in case UPA wants to do deal.

And also has shown the people to what extent gentle MMS can go in aping Mrs Gandhi who invoked Emergency.

---
CRS its not the Kashmiris who need to be told that but the Fake Secular in sarkari corridors.

munna · Post by **munna** » 25 Jan 2011 04:19

ramana wrote:I guess thats Shekar Gupta of Ind Exp writing.What is the solution in his opinion?

Here is a open and clear-cut call to Shekhar Gupta, Burkha Dutt, Venodh Sharma, Rajdeep, B Raman and all other distinguished members of Dilli commentariat. You do NOT MATTER to BJP or its camp. By being biased and totally ruthless with your attacks on the party concerned you have burned all your bridges with them, mark it ALL. So stop assuming that your words matter more than a failed ad jingle to them. You do what you do and they do what they do!

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 25 Jan 2011 04:22

Too many snakeoil salesmen and they are working overtime this week

Frederic · Post by **Frederic** » 25 Jan 2011 04:23

Brilliant "Thaandav" Rudradevji.
One more lie nailed then?

Best Regards
Fred

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 25 Jan 2011 04:23

ramana ji,
it is on the surface a political move for diverting attention from 2G. However something much deeper is at work. They had most likely a process started to try and get a Good Friday style arrangement accepted and enforced. This was perhaps "Pranav-da"'s task, and demanded of by the US/UK think tanks. The Democrats in particular would be partcularly keen on such models - the hubby Clinton was a prime mover for Northern Ireland.

The current US Democrat admin will be desperate to show some foreign policy success. Winding up involvement in long drawn foreign conflicts is a desired but not necessarily a matter to be proud of by the US voters. So Iraq and AFG withdrawal will be desirable but not seen as success. If they could hand over Kashmir more to Pak, they could try and show "huge progress". Over the coming two years there will be more intense pressure on both Israel and India to concede to the Islamists. Given the Republican comeback in the midterm elections, this means such pressure will mount secretly and on back-channel negotiations.

ramana ji, do consider my model for Congress dynamics - a struggle between "fund managers" and the dynasty. Fund managers have been the classic go-betweens for dirty negotiations. They are too deeply involved in unmentionable activities [all for the great "national cause" of the "cause" of the party of the "supreme cause" of the dynasty - who in turn serve the "cause" of fund managers and dependent mosahibs] to betray [ they will get hanged themselves].

But, the isssue of the flag is more important from the "forced to choose sides" angle. That is the only lasting effect. This particular event will not in itself be the one to lead for a rashtryia change. But its effect will be very similar to what happened in the early phases of the Non-cooperation movement 90 years before. That event polarized and to an extent divided and split up the "nationalists". Appeasing of Islamism was undertaken as a serious policy under the Khilafat movement. We cannot have exact repeats of history. But I would see much more ruthless targeting of the BJP and affiliates than the Brits ever ran on "Gandhi". This time around imperialists and their agents will not make the mistake of leaving things to chance. Fortunately there is no "Gandhi" this time around to focus on! A big strategic weakness.

On the question of choosing to side with Islamism or Islamist demands or not - always seems to polarize "nationalists" and hidden sympathies come out. Then Partition riots were yet to be seen, but now '47-'48 and '71 have been experienced. So this is a good start, even though I would not rule out the possibility of bloodshed. If preparations had been taken [dispersal of hoisters quietly and in opposite direction earlier] there will be a final attempt at raising the flag. The J&K gov under central assurance will not hesitate to use fatal force, as they need to show that the full strength of the rashtryia security apparatus will be used to protect Jihadis and their demands. They think that it will only win them admiration and a fearful submission from rest of India - and surely many of the voices who have been clamouring in favour of NC/Cong here on the forum will only sneer/twist/snarl will casually dismiss any casualties as "oh they had it coming".

This is something that will ultimately open the eyes of those who hope for change. The "charitable/missionary" way of Aseemanand will not work, neither will BJP's political methods work - because both are working through the rashtra. The extremist direct war methods attributed to some groups will not work because the rashtra will use its military might without hesitation if it come sto protecting Islamist interests. Flag hoisting should make it clear what version of the essence of Gandhi's method is needed - you have to bypass the current rashtra, not overthrow it - but make it irrelevant.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 25 Jan 2011 04:28

ramana wrote:I think its only the "Disturbed Areas Act" that allows the deportation form disturbed areas. Is J&K in that law? Is Omar Abduallha taking refuge in a law that he was agaisnt till recently?

I do not know the law but I am sure Jammu is not Disturbed area. Only portions of border and some part of valley are declared.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 25 Jan 2011 05:08

While we're still analyzing reasons for the Yatra to proceed... there is one entirely non-partisan reason related to Indian national interest and nothing else.

In any negotiation, there is a "top-line" and a "bottom-line".

The "top-line" is the maximum price you are willing to offer in order to get what you want. If the asking price is above your top-line, then what you want to purchase is unaffordable.

The "bottom-line" is the minimum below which you are completely unwilling to compromise, no matter what is being offered in return.

On J&K, previous governments have had varying "top-lines." But they have all adhered to a very well-defined "bottom-line": that J&K, the whole of J&K state that acceded to India in 1947, is an integral part of India and will remain so under any and all circumstances. This has been the subject of multiple parliamentary resolutions that we are all familiar with.

It has been alleged by some on this forum, that the past NDA government had an excessively generous "top-line" on J&K, and were ready to give away too much for peace. In support of this allegation, the occurrence of talks between RK Mishra and Niaz Naik has been cited. Evidently the Pakistanis brought something known as the "Chenab Plan" to the table. As it happened, the NDA government rejected the "Chenab Plan" as unacceptable and that was the end of the story.

It has also been alleged, as if it were a bad thing, that the NDA government had the first ever talks with the Hizbul Mujahedin. Strangely enough, these allegations come from the very people who (in the Internal Security Watch thread) insist repeatedly that bringing extremist and militant organizations into the political mainstream is the key to ending all militancy. They cite the Mizo accord between Mr. Bofors and Laldenga as a case in point, meant to illustrate the great wisdom and foresight of Mr. Bofors. Yet somehow when the NDA talks to the Hizbul Mujahedin, that is advanced as equivalent to the rampant sellouts by the Maino Cabal today! Anyway.

The point is that no matter what the NDA government offered as its "top-line"... it offered openly, and it offered transparently. The press covered the Mishra-Naik talks. The media covered the Hizb talks, and ABV's trip to Lahore. Everything placed on the table was debated threadbare. Every policy action even putatively being advanced by those in the GOI, was a subject of public scrutiny by all who might be concerned, in the bare light of day.

Musharraf's omelette breakfast at Agra has been cited as an "embarrassing defeat" for the NDA government by defenders of the Maino Cabal. However, the fact that Mush was able to present his case before our journalists in public, reflects only the openness and transparency characteristic of the NDA government's dealings with Pakistan.

Since Musharraf got exactly nothing out of it, I don't see why it should be considered a "defeat". It may be "embarrassing" to people with such low self-esteem that they feel cowed by the rants of a tin-pot dictator (interestingly, the same people who happily accept the country being usurped and looted by an extra-constitutional Maino authority.) But not to most.

In the event, the NDA did much to rehabilitate J&K into the political mainstream. Under cover of Operation Parakram, they held the first successful democratic elections in J&K since the ones Mr. Free-pass-to-Warren-Anderson rigged in 1987. The first since 1990 in which a thumping majority of J&K citizens turned out to vote. Olive branches were offered to some Hurriyat members, to join the mainstream and run in the elections. But that was all, as far as the top-line was actually implemented.

Meanwhile, on the "bottom-line", the NDA did not waver at all. They did not depart even an inch from the view that J&K is an integral part of India and no redrawing of borders was ever possible. When Pakistan tried to change those borders by force in the Kargil sector, the NDA thwarted them completely.

In sum, then: Under the NDA government, the "top-line" on Kashmir was largely clear and transparent; while the "bottom-line" held absolutely firm.

The UPA government, meanwhile, has been anything but open and transparent on J&K. They have taken no clearly articulated position on J&K at all. We have no idea what their "top-line" really is; the only clear indication comes from such declarations as Thimphu and Sharm-el-Shaikh, which reveal that the UPA is willing to foresake the lives of Indian victims of terrorism in pursuit of a J&K solution with Pakistan. Meanwhile we have seen US officials come and go; and we've read lifafa articles in the UPA-affiliated-media arguing in favour of huge concessions on J&K's sovereignty.

We have heard from Khurshid Kasuri that all manner of things have been discussed as part of the UPA's top-line, including "joint sovereignty", "troop withdrawal", "demilitarization of Siachen" and "soft borders." But they have been discussed behind closed doors. We have no word from the UPA what it has been offering to the Pakis in the name of the Indian people.

Of course Kasuri is a Paki, so his credibility already stands stunted. We would never believe him, if the UPA government came out and told us (with openness and transparency that previous governments have showed)... what their top-line on Kashmir actually is. If the UPA had been clear about what it was actually considering putting on the table, and had made the issue a matter of free public debate as it was during the NDA's term... why would anyone be suspicious? We might like it or we might not like it, but we would definitely take the clear word of MMS over a Paki like Kasuri.

The problem, of course, is that there is no clear word from MMS or the UPA on what their "top-line" is. There is only the constant shuttling of Joe Bidens and Richard Holbrookes between New Delhi and Islamabad, accompanied by a constant litany of public sellouts to Pakistan on ancillary subjects such as terrorism. Meanwhile, there is an orchestrated campaign by the UPA-affiliated-media that, at times, seems targeted at leaching away core public perceptions of the integrity of J&K to the Indian Union, and the non-negotiable terms under which that integrity has been enshrined in the constitution.

We never hear from the UPA what it is really thinking about doing on J&K, and the only information available to us comes from the S-e-S type diplomatic sellouts; the utterances of Pakis like Kasuri; and the opinion-manufacturing of Maino peons like Siddharth Varadarajan under the guise of "journalism." Real journalists never get a whiff of what is really on offer.

So clearly, then: under the UPA government, the top-line on Kashmir has become blurred.

Now what about the bottom-line? What about the point at which this UPA government is absolutely unwilling to compromise with secessionists or foreign governments on J&K?

It was genuinely fascinating to me to read that, in the 19-year period from 1991-2009, without fail, the Indian Flag has flown every Republic Day from the Lal Chowk clock tower in Srinagar. I myself had forgotten all about MM Joshi's yatra of 1992, but if it had anything to do with establishing this tradition, it was certainly worthwhile.

It was also immensely revealing to read that the tradition had been broken, last year, and apparently without any obvious cause. No disturbance, no spike in militancy, and yet for some reason... the flag was NOT hoisted on R-Day 2010 in Lal Chowk. For the first time in 19 years.

Why? Of course, given the UPA's commitment to openness and transparency, there is no way of knowing. Certainly no one was talking about a "militant threat" or "provocation to the secessionists" then.

So to whom was the UPA showing its "good faith" by not following a tradition of raising the Indian flag on Indian soil on Indian republic day? What promises had been made, to which parties, that such a display of "good-faith" was required and a two-decade tradition had to be broken?

It bears mentioning that, despite the carefully maintained absence of a provocation, the Valley then suffered tremendous secessionist violence all summer long. Surely this was unrelated to the fact that the Indian flag was not raised at Lal Chowk on R-Day last year? Or maybe it was... in the same way that sharks are attracted by the scent of blood, or jackals by signs of weakness?

From the point of view of anybody who was watching, who cared... the symbolism is obvious.

The apparent truth is that the UPA's bottom-line on J&K has fallen out, entirely. It has fallen below the minimum floor set by the Indian constitution, beyond which no previous government of India has ever even dared to suggest compromising.

The UPA regime has a blurred and obscure top-line on J&K, relying on an opacity of intentions that stifles public debate on its policies. Even more worryingly, it has sunk the bottom-line to an unprecedented level of compromise that no previous GOI would have thought politically feasible, and that no citizen of India should imagine harmless.

About the top-line that the UPA has been peddling, there is little we can do but worry. Some posters on BRF insist that there is nothing to worry about, and that no compromises will be made on J&K's sovereignty... but one must ask, with whose family gold are these worthy posters betting on such an eventuality? Is it that they simply feel that they personally won't lose very much if they turn out to be wrong?

There is no cost too great... none at all... to deter the Indian people from re-establishing at least this bottom line with clear, obvious and irrefutable symbolism. No matter what happens to the law-and-order situation in any state, the sentiments of any community, the electoral chances of any political party, or our current trajectory of economic growth as a nation... a dangerously sagging bottom-line in our Kashmir policy spells absolute disaster for the Indian Union on a scale unprecedented since 1947. We-- Indians of all communities and political parties-- cannot afford the collapse of this bottom-line. At any cost.

The purpose of this Yatra is for concerned Indian citizens to determine whether the UPA government was merely in error when it "neglected" to raise the Indian flag at Lal Chowk on R-Day 2010, for the first time in twenty years? Or was that a deliberate omission, covering up a surrender far, far more significant?

The manner in which the UPA is trying to stifle the Yatra, makes the answer obvious to anyone who isn't willfully blind.

vina · Post by **vina** » 25 Jan 2011 05:24

ravi_ku wrote:So it has happened.

India has arrested all its opposition leaders and put them into jail. - once again.

British , Indira during emergency and Sonia now.

All ? I can count just 3. Sushma, Jaitley and Kumar and that too just "dumped" in Punjab and not arrested .

Just dumped on j&J - Panjab border

This place is called Madhopur

We will enter J&K again

We did not come for a Satyagraha. We have come for Tiranga Yatra. Wont give up. Come what may.

Vande Maatram.

Yeah right. Now wrap yourself in some make believe patriotism and "Vande Maataram" when you have collected a couple of thousand shock troops which will turn into an uncontrollable mob with disastrous consequences that an never be set right if there is a clash between this 50,000 odd mob and another mob put together by the separatists in downtown Srinagar. Half the city can easily be laid to a total waste in a couple of hours of rioting, with the ordinary folks innocently caught int he middle and who have no part in this idiocy being the main sufferers.

All right and dandy to throw it all away in a one liner with "Law and Order is the State Govt's responsibility" . Yes indeed it is , and I am glad that the J&K Govt and OA are taking it seriously and are thwarting this incredibly foolish venture and cynical venture.

Again I tell, it is back to the trusty old "Yatra" and Riots playbook of the BJP again like a broken LP record. This pony is unable to learn any other tricks and be a civilized democratic party, but wants to be "nationalist" and a "party of governance" and claims to be the party with a "difference" . Yes, different indeed , with the only means of mobilization seems to be around polarizing wedge issues and the accompanying social and street violence. Shame. Nothing at all about being responsible for your actions and the effects of your actions and the gravitas and deep sense of propriety from being the main opposition party and a national "alternative" from the BJP.

I really think it is a sad day when Vajpayee retired. He seemed to be the only sane guy in the BJP ever. No wonder he rose to be the PM. These Sushmas, Jaitleys and Kumars remind me of that grumpy and forever sidelined "Tall Leader", MM Joshi, who tried a me too "imitation" Rath Yatra after Advani's Ayodhya one in a very tense and charged Kashmir of 1992 and which ended in a whimper. My money is on this one too ending in a whimper and pray the J&K Govt and Govt of India , squash this lunacy and prevent any potential street level clashes in Kashmir.

Bhaskar · Post by **Bhaskar** » 25 Jan 2011 05:29

^ Facepalm....

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 25 Jan 2011 05:30

Rudradev wrote:
However, when it comes from a poster who apparently prides himself on having referenceable facts and "peer-reviewed" documentation to back up his other assertions... one must wonder at the uncharacteristic "carelessness" on display here. And what purpose it is really intended to serve.

This self described knowledgeable poster even asked for proof from other posters and then kept deriding their logic and reason. This is hilarious

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 25 Jan 2011 05:31

SwamyG wrote: Only INC and Pakistan when pushed to complete backfoot, will even attempt to hit a straight six over mid-on.

RAPEs of a feather...

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 25 Jan 2011 05:49

Vina,

So without arresting and THEN banishing them by the govt, did the djinns carry them from Jammu to Punjab?
or may be they did. I dont know. You tell me.

and I thought that the leader of opposition in lok sabha and rajya sabha constitute the primary leaders of opposition.
Guess there must be something else defined in Vina's constitution. Unfortunately, Indian constitution defines them that way.

Where can I buy a copy of Vina's constitution?

Frederic · Post by **Frederic** » 25 Jan 2011 05:55

Bhaskar wrote:^ Facepalm....

In Rajini style

"Neththi Adi" (hammer fist to forehead!)

Best
Fred

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 25 Jan 2011 05:57

[quote="RudradevRAPEs of a feather...

[/quote]

Or Congress / Commie/ Pseudos crying and accusing BJP of the dire offence of
The Rape of the Lock!!
http://poetry.eserver.org/rape-of-the-lock.html

KM are not that innocent babes and Tiranga flyers not rapists. They are asseritng sovreingty there because it is the need of the hour. They could also stay home and watch cricket or trade commodities but they are doing their utmost in cold winter to send the right message. GOI has alienated majority Hindus by selling the country to outsiders and its time to do some due diligence on UPA's betrayal of the Indian Constitution.

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 25 Jan 2011 06:05

vina wrote:These Sushmas, Jaitleys and Kumars remind me of that grumpy and forever sidelined "Tall Leader", MM Joshi, who tried a me too "imitation" Rath Yatra after Advani's Ayodhya one in a very tense and charged Kashmir of 1992 and which ended in a whimper. My money is on this one too ending in a whimper and pray the J&K Govt and Govt of India , squash this lunacy and prevent any potential street level clashes in Kashmir.

That "whimper" started the practise of flying the Indian flag in lal chowk every year during the worst of militancy, which was stopped by the OA/2Gs/MMS last year when it was the almost the best times.

Guess the "whimper" actually did something

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 25 Jan 2011 06:07

If the BJP wanted to get the Tiranga up a lal chowk they should do what the separatists do. Namely sneak a small squad of 6 or so persons in when no one is watching, get the flag-up, take some pictures and then watch the tamasha after wards.

Whats the point of announcing 3 months early and then turning it into a show of will. This whole arrest, don't arrest episode has embarrassed a bunch of 70 year olds to be honest. Hard to take the Sushma types seriously after this esp. WRT governance.

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 25 Jan 2011 06:09

so you want that the national flag in its own territory be flown sneakily.

Good for you, sir.

As you said, the congress and OA had three months to make this into a official function and they themselves fly the flag. No they were ready appease the seperatists but flying the tiranga was a big no-no on the republic day.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 25 Jan 2011 06:13

vina wrote: I am glad that the J&K Govt and OA are taking it seriously and are thwarting this incredibly foolish venture and cynical venture.

What you call foolish and cynical is your prerogative to an opinion. The act of political parties to assemble and act on public issues is the corner stone of a democratic polity, or are you saying, since the political parties are so "foolish", dispense away with this democratic nonsense?

munna · Post by **munna** » 25 Jan 2011 06:14

Theo_Fidel wrote:Whats the point of announcing 3 months early and then turning it into a show of will. This whole arrest, don't arrest episode has embarrassed a bunch of 70 year olds to be honest. Hard to take the Sushma types seriously after this.

Actually you never took her seriously or were a supporter of her anyway. So spare the fake alienation from her to the janta. The rationale behind tiranga plan is to reverse the non-hoisting of flag at Lal Chowk initiated by OA since last 26. They want to pose a question to Shri MMS-ji about the so called back channel plans and things being envisaged therein. One Can heavily disagree with them but I am yet to see a BJP wala saying that they will not support BJP due to tiranga yatra and I am not talking of netizens. We can respectfully agree to disagree.

Frederic · Post by **Frederic** » 25 Jan 2011 06:16

Theo_Fidel wrote:If the BJP wanted to get the Tiranga up a lal chowk they should do what the separatists do. Namely sneak a small squad of 6 or so persons in when no one is watching, get the flag-up, take some pictures and then watch the tamasha after wards.

Whats the point of announcing 3 months early and then turning it into a show of will. This whole arrest, don't arrest episode has embarrassed a bunch of 70 year olds to be honest. Hard to take the Sushma types seriously after this esp. WRT governance.

Or disguise some Kannadigas as Tamilians (not seventy year olds mind you, we need youngsters if this is to be taken seriously), sneak them into Valluvar Kottam, sneakishly hoist Tiranga when Kalaignar is not looking, sneakishly photoshop the Valluvar Kottam into Lal Chowk, sneakishly post the whole episode on YouTube, sneakishly melt away into the night and declare victory.

Lungi Dance for everyone then.

Best
Fred

munna · Post by **munna** » 25 Jan 2011 06:18

^sir Fredric ji let us not make it a question of our ethnicities. Oppose theo's argument and not him.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 25 Jan 2011 06:23

kujli, more kujli, more and more kujli and no real argument here. The bottomline is the selloff and no one want to say it and instead concentrate on BJP this Sushma that.

munna · Post by **munna** » 25 Jan 2011 06:28

Muppalla wrote:kujli, more kujli, more and more kujli and no real argument here. The bottomline is the selloff and no one want to say it and instead concentrate on BJP this Sushma that.

Actually the arguments run like this.

"We hate the yatra because we hate BJP and if they do not stop it we will hate it even more"
"we hate everything they do hence they should not do anything"

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 25 Jan 2011 06:35

That Sachin Pilot was talking rubbish on uNDTV.

He says "Srinagar is part of India. BJP is doing this yatra as if they are going to hoist it in Mujafarabad in Pakista". What a stupid. As an MP and minister one expects him to know about the parliamentary resolution that states that "entire J&K state is integral part of India".

Frederic · Post by **Frederic** » 25 Jan 2011 06:35

munna wrote:^sir Fredric ji let us not make it a question of our ethnicities. Oppose theo's argument and not him.

Munnabhai,

It was Theoji who came up with the most serene and most original observation that if a bus load of Tamilians marched into Namma Bengaluru to hoist the Tiranga, Kannadigas would take umbrage.

I have relatives on both sides of the TN-Karnataka border.

My personal opinion is that such a reaction is highly unlikely. Kannadigas and Tamils together wouldn't have issues with a Tiranga.

But then again Sirji, I have seen strange things on BRF during the past few days.

One illustrious poster even suggested that displaced Pandit people should get up from their "cushy" perches in Delhi and elsewhere and lead a Nautanki (with uncovered wimmen and all) to Lal Chowk with Aamir Khan and Katrina Kaif in tow. Somehow this is supposed to make the valley mussalman kids in their 20s (who had never heard Kahmiri being spoken by a Hindu girl in their life before) fall at the uncovered wimmens feet and embrace them as sisters.

What do I know? All is Maya onlee Sirjee.

Best
Fred

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 25 Jan 2011 06:39

Rudradev wrote:Wow. History is being invented before our eyes!

Here is the exact, full text of the Instrument of Accession that Hari Singh signed.

http://www.kashmir-information.com/hist ... s/113.html

Rudradevji, first up, there is no "us v/s them" here..We are all on the same side, even if perspectives differ..If you approach discussions from that level, you would take these things more dispassionately...Which is when you would probably do a little bit more "google search" and find out the details for yourself..Like the fact that the link above has an incomplete version of the Instrument of Accession (dont know if its deliberate)..

Heres the full version:

http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/countries ... ession.htm

Schedule
The matters with respect to which the Dominion Legislature may make laws for this State.

Defence
The naval, military and air forces of the dominion and any other armed forces raised or maintained by the Dominion; any armed forces, incl forces raised or maintained by an acceding State, which are attached to, or operating with, any of the armed forces of the Dominion.

Naval, military and air force works, administration of cantonment areas.

Arms, fire-arms, ammunition.

Explosives.

External Affairs
External affairs; the implementing of treaties and agreements with other countries; extradition, including the surrender of criminals and accused persons to parts of His Majesty's Dominions outside India.

Admission into, and emigration and expulsion from, India including in relation thereto the regulation of the movements in India of persons who are not British subjects domiciled in India or subjects of any acceding State, pilgrimages to places beyond India.

Naturalization.

Communications
Posts and Telegraphs, including telephones, wireless, broadcasting, and other like forms of communications.

Federal Railways; the regulation of all railways other than minor railways in respect of safety, maximum and minimum rates and fare, stn and service terminal charges, interchange of traffic and the responsibility of railway Adm. as carriers of goods and passengers.

Maritime shipping and navigation, incl shipping and navigation in tidal waters; Admiralty jurisdiction.

Port quarantine.

Maj ports, that is to say, the declaration and delimitation of such ports, and the constitution and powers of Port Authorities therein.

Ac and air navigation; the provision of aerodromes; regulation and organization of air traffic and of aerodromes.

Lighthouses, incl lightships, beacons and other provisions for the safety of shipping and ac.

Carriage of passengers and goods by sea or by air.

Extension of the powers and jurisdiction of members of the police force belonging to any unit to railway area outside that unit.

Ancillary
Elections to the Dominion Legislature, subject to the provisions of the Act and of any order made thereunder.

Offences against laws with respect to any of the aforesaid matters.

Inquiries and statistics for the purpose of any of the aforesaid matters.

Jurisdiction and powers of all courts with respect to any of the aforesaid matters but, except with the consent of the Ruler of the Acceding State, not so as to confer any jurisdiction of powers upon any courts other than ordinarily exercising jurisdiction in or in relation to that State.

So the original Instrument of Accession DID limit the law-making powers of the Indian Dominion to Defence, Foreign Affairs and Communications and some Ancilliary items..So I guess the "lie" is settled?

Given the nature of the "accession", it was a fait accompli to have an "interim", or temporary arrangement in the Constitution (as this acession was materially different from most, in fact all the others in many respects)..this had to be done concurrently with the rest of the work of the Constituent Assembly, and the initial draft was the result of negotiations between Gopalaswami Ayyengar And Sheikh Abdullah...

A good summary of the legal blow-by-blow..

http://www.legalserviceindia.com/articl ... e-370.html

So it wasnt "arrived" at sudenly 5 years later - it was the result of a lengthy negotiation whose datum level was the instrument of accession signed..In fact the original draft of the Art 370 reads as follows:

1. Notwithstanding anything in this Constitution,
(a) the provisions of article 238 shall not apply in relation to the State of Jammu and Kashmir;

(b) the power of Parliament to make laws for the said State shall be limited to,

(i) those matters in the Union List and the Concurrent List which, in consultation with the Government of the State are declared by the President to correspond to matters specified in the Instrument of Accession governing the accession of the State to the Dominion of India as the matters with respect to which the Dominion Legislature may make laws far that State; and
(ii) such other matters in the said Lists as, with the concurrence of the Government of the State, the President may by order specify.

A full reading will also tell you how more residuary powers were brought in the ambit of the Central govt through this "temporary" enactment over the years....to the extent that the only major "special" provision is on land ownership AFAIK..If you want to read more about the legal background of the Kashmir case, there are lots of books - AG Noorani is one (though I suspect against your ideological proclivities

)...

finally, I repeat - relax.We are here to share and learn (at least I am), and we are on the same side..

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 25 Jan 2011 06:40

RamaY wrote:That Sachin Pilot was talking rubbish on uNDTV.

He says "Srinagar is part of India. BJP is doing this yatra as if they are going to hoist it in Mujafarabad in Pakista". What a stupid. As an MP and minister one expects him to know about the parliamentary resolution that states that "entire J&K state is integral part of India".

Isnt he related to Omar Abdullah?

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 25 Jan 2011 06:41

munna wrote: Actually the arguments run like this.

"We hate the yatra because we hate BJP and if they do not stop it we will hate it even more"
"we hate everything they do hence they should not do anything"

^ It runs even deeper than that. Probably like this.
Here is what we want you to do.
All unsolicited advices and concerns about a 'foolish bunch of BJP wallahs' is dispensed. (Quacks are dime a dozen to provide medication on demand.)
(If they are foolish, why demand that they follow the recommendations and prescriptions.)
We are custodians of what is right, correct and patriotic. Please, please pretty please conform to our directions and please seek our counsel, else we will be marginalized. Why can't BJP use us who can prescribe anything they need or do not need at the drop of the hat? Oh why? Without our approval BJP is nothing. We have all sorts of snake oil, even if you do not need one.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 25 Jan 2011 06:44

Rudradev wrote:While we're still analyzing reasons for the Yatra to proceed... there is one entirely non-partisan reason related to Indian national interest and nothing else.
...

Rudradev ji. Excellent post. Hope you are putting this post in your blog. Please do if you didn't already. There are many confused souls out there, googling for Ekta Yatra!

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 25 Jan 2011 06:45

Now effectively, the learning process is whether sushma is 70 years old or does she need advice? Can we focus on the tiranga please? Or is it too much to understand what is at stake here?

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 25 Jan 2011 06:48

Rudradev wrote: It has been alleged by some on this forum, that the past NDA government had an excessively generous "top-line" on J&K, and were ready to give away too much for peace. In support of this allegation, the occurrence of talks between RK Mishra and Niaz Naik has been cited. Evidently the Pakistanis brought something known as the "Chenab Plan" to the table. As it happened, the NDA government rejected the "Chenab Plan" as unacceptable and that was the end of the story.

It has also been alleged, as if it were a bad thing, that the NDA government had the first ever talks with the Hizbul Mujahedin. Strangely enough, these allegations come from the very people who (in the Internal Security Watch thread) insist repeatedly that bringing extremist and militant organizations into the political mainstream is the key to ending all militancy. They cite the Mizo accord between Mr. Bofors and Laldenga as a case in point, meant to illustrate the great wisdom and foresight of Mr. Bofors. Yet somehow when the NDA talks to the Hizbul Mujahedin, that is advanced as equivalent to the rampant sellouts by the Maino Cabal today! Anyway.

I guessed this was in repsonse to what I said..Please go back and read what I posted...The only contention was that NDA did not do anything that other governments (UPA, UF et al) havent tried or are not trying and vice versa...That includes discussions with Pak, talks with Hurriyat/militant types etc...

And no, there was no "transparency" in the Mishra-Naik talks when they happened, just as there was no transparency in Jaswant-Talbot talks - these things by their very nature cannot be held in the glare of the media...Details come out in various shapes and forms years later...The details of the Mishra-Naik talks came out only when people started writing serious Kargil chrnonlogies...Details of the Jaswant-Talbot came out when Talbot wrote his book!

As far as the bottomline is concerned, it is set..For people who cant (or wont) understand, the bottomline is defined by the Parliament..Whatever the govt of the day might want to do, it has to go back to the Parl to shift the bottomline..

Rest of it is politics (and entertainment!)...

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 25 Jan 2011 06:54

vina wrote: Yeah right. Now wrap yourself in some make believe patriotism and "Vande Maataram" when you have collected a couple of thousand shock troops which will turn into an uncontrollable mob with disastrous consequences that an never be set right if there is a clash between this 50,000 odd mob and another mob put together by the separatists in downtown Srinagar. Half the city can easily be laid to a total waste in a couple of hours of rioting, with the ordinary folks innocently caught int he middle and who have no part in this idiocy being the main sufferers.

That would be karma paying her visit to Srinagar, which resulted in Kashmiri Pandit exodus. Wonder where these separatists would like to go.

All right and dandy to throw it all away in a one liner with "Law and Order is the State Govt's responsibility" . Yes indeed it is , and I am glad that the J&K Govt and OA are taking it seriously and are thwarting this incredibly foolish venture and cynical venture.

Wonder where did OA mortgaged all this seriousness and proactiveness during the stone pelting fiasco!

Again I tell, it is back to the trusty old "Yatra" and Riots playbook of the BJP again like a broken LP record. This pony is unable to learn any other tricks and be a civilized democratic party, but wants to be "nationalist" and a "party of governance" and claims to be the party with a "difference" . Yes, different indeed , with the only means of mobilization seems to be around polarizing wedge issues and the accompanying social and street violence. Shame. Nothing at all about being responsible for your actions and the effects of your actions and the gravitas and deep sense of propriety from being the main opposition party and a national "alternative" from the BJP.

The last time BJP was responsible and organized an nationwide yatra to wake up national pride; the nation blessed it with 80+ MP seats. Vandemataram, I would say!

I really think it is a sad day when Vajpayee retired. He seemed to be the only sane guy in the BJP ever. No wonder he rose to be the PM. These Sushmas, Jaitleys and Kumars remind me of that grumpy and forever sidelined "Tall Leader", MM Joshi, who tried a me too "imitation" Rath Yatra after Advani's Ayodhya one in a very tense and charged Kashmir of 1992 and which ended in a whimper. My money is on this one too ending in a whimper and pray the J&K Govt and Govt of India , squash this lunacy and prevent any potential street level clashes in Kashmir.

Vajpayee was alive and kicking during LKA and MMJ yatras. And he was eternally thankful for their efforts, if not for which he cannot even dream of bringing NDA to power paving the way for Indian resurgence.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 25 Jan 2011 06:57

There are also many Muslim families in J&K that have been victimized ... for example there are cases of Muslim women being abducted, raped and mutilated by Jihadis. Recall also the recent incident of the girl in Doda who killed a terrorist with an axe ..

It would be good to collect 500 Kashmiri Pandits and another 500 such Muslim victims who are willing to take a stand. Then use that as a core group for activism in J&K.

It will take some time, energy and organizational skill, and maybe a modest amount of funding.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 25 Jan 2011 07:02

somnath wrote:As far as the bottomline is concerned, it is set..For people who cant (or wont) understand, the bottomline is defined by the Parliament..Whatever the govt of the day might want to do, it has to go back to the Parl to shift the bottomline..

Not necessarily. The government of the day can create estoppel on its own via initiatives like loosening border controls. And treaties with foreign nations do not need Parliamentary approval in India.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 25 Jan 2011 07:02

ramana wrote:
RamaY wrote:That Sachin Pilot was talking rubbish on uNDTV.

He says "Srinagar is part of India. BJP is doing this yatra as if they are going to hoist it in Mujafarabad in Pakista". What a stupid. As an MP and minister one expects him to know about the parliamentary resolution that states that "entire J&K state is integral part of India".

Isnt he related to Omar Abdullah?

I forgot that sir ji! Sarah Abdullah is indeed married to one Sachin Pilot, MP.

Now I understand the bositive results of people-to-people contact.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 25 Jan 2011 07:06

RamaY wrote:Vajpayee was alive and kicking during LKA and MMJ yatras. And he was eternally thankful for their efforts, if not for which he cannot even dream of bringing NDA to power paving the way for Indian resurgence.

Ramayji, not so sure..The original yatra was a huge success, no doubt..That is what catapulted BJP up - and there are lots of theories on why it hapened -will keep out of them for now..

ALL the subsequent ones, including MMJ's Ekta Yatra, were massive flops at worst and "tired" at best...Including LKA's "Vikas yatra" (or some such name) before the elections...In the last 20 odd years, have you EVER heard BJP invoking any yatra in their narrative barring the original rath yatra?