J & K news and discussion

[Arjun]

Can you get it into your head that this is 100% NOT about any hate baggage of the past or otherwise?

Sorry. Is majorly about the hate baggage of the BJP. You cannot separate the BJP's persona from the specific message here.

NO - it is completely OT. The only thing on topic right now is the flag-hoisting issue and the J&K situation. We'll leave it to the mods - but if presumed 'hate baggage' of BJP is allowed - then there should also be a discussion on the larger 'hate baggage' issue of the INC and maybe we should also allow discussion of your hate-record on BR.

Hmm, last I saw,the Indian constitution listed fundamental rights as freedom of speech, religion, property , life and other I don't remember, but I distinctly do remember that the right to hoist the flag anywhere was not listed as one ..

Hmmm- I trust, based on certificates from other members here, that you have the ability to google up on the Naveen Jindal PIL and the Supreme Court's verdict on the matter. Did you miss the phrase 'fundamental right' in that verdict?

fundamental rights are subject to reasonable restrictions (Subject to Public Health, Morality, law and order.. etc.. as stated I think) and I do think the threat of violence and disorder is a very valid ground to curb the exercise of such a right.

Yes...absolutely and that is exactly the right debate to have. The fundamental right of hoisting the flag should be allowed (more so on Republic Day), just as the fundamental right of expressing oneself should be allowed. However - there should be reasonable restrictions - and therefore the government's attitude should have been - OK, you want to hoist the flag. As the government we will PROTECT your fundamental right. But here are the set of guidelines you have to follow - you would need to involve the local community out there, you would need to do a , b etc....

Why in heaven's name was this attitude not visible?

[Muppalla]

One thing that Congress I needs to understand here:

Omar Abdullah is actually going to become the winner in this. His ratings will only increase in the valley because he stood up against the "Hindooz" "The RSS", "The BJP".
Congress I is going to lose its electorate because of the emotions of nationalism coming into play here. The congress is trapped! They have to see this through and each statement and speech by the BJP leadership is resulting in losing electorate. BTW the BJP wallahs are 'martyrs' by now.

Now the only thing that can save the Congress is if massa pulls a bunny out of the wikileaks swiss bank accounts hat. And that list shows only the right wingers as bribe takers. A few low level congressi and leftists will be collateral damage onlee.

Good post in the middle of a lot of hangama. Only external help and potential EVM tampering will get them to goal post next time. Omar Abdullah effectivly pushed the Jammu votes to BJP. BJP got a substantial seats in JK assembly even last time. Gulam Nabi Azad need to ponder over the centre's handling of the situation.

[munna]

Ahh then killers of Sikhs are hate baggage free! Great are the wonders of today. Anyways the fundamental point is that after burning all bridges with BJP the commentariat cannot cry if it has no influence on it. Even Aurangzeb and his empire could not wipe out nationalists nor can the butchers of Sikhs and Kashmiri Pandits. Sorry to put a spanner in the works but this constituency effectively holds a veto when it comes to J&K's future and they are demonstrating it by putting political boots on the ground something that current government is trying hard to avoid and is thinning troop presence on purpose.

[Muppalla]

Ahh then killers of Sikhs are hate baggage free! Great are the wonders of today. Anyways the fundamental point is that after burning all bridges with BJP the commentariat cannot cry if it has no influence on it. Even Aurangzeb and his empire could not wipe out nationalists nor can the butchers of Sikhs and Kashmiri Pandits. Sorry to put a spanner in the works but this constituency effectively holds a veto when it comes to J&K's future and they are demonstrating it by putting political boots on the ground something that current government is trying hard to avoid and is thinning troop presence on purpose.

munnaji, This is a huge consolidation of geographical North India. It is a huge japhad to sinster designs.

[vina]

Omar Abdullah is actually going to become the winner in this. His ratings will only increase in the valley because he stood up against the "Hindooz" "The RSS", "The BJP".
Congress I is going to lose its electorate because of the emotions of nationalism coming into play here

.. Here we are, talking about "winners" and "losers", while at the same time assuring people that it is "100% about hoisting the national flag"! Nice try. The cat is out of the bag innit?

[arnab]

Wrong analogy IMO. South Carolina did secede at one point, but the secession was put down with use of force. The right analogy is letting the existing Pakistan flag fly in Srinagar after Pakistan no longer exists as a separate entity alongside India.

Many other States seceded - Texas, Virginia etc. But that is not the point. The civil war was over in 1864, when General Robert E Lee surrendered with his confederate forces to General Grant. However the point is that even in 2010 South Carolina (which was defeated and assimilated) is allowed to fly it's seceded flag out of deference of the wishes of the state citizens. The union does not weep and wail about how this is an affront to the unity of the United States.

[Raghavendra]

I note that a poster had made the point that fellow kannadigas may take offence if Tamils from across the border tried to hoist the flag in their state.

I am a Kannadiga and I welcome tamils and people from other parts of India to come and hoist the flag in my state.

Arnab why are you spreading poison of hatred among us and which state do you come from.

I pity your parents and teachers who failed in educating you properly and bringing you up in a civilized way.

Sorry that you did not grow up to be a sane minded person.

I endorse his point (I remember kannadigas being seriously annoyed with God when Dr Rajkumar died of natural causes and therefore took their angst out on the nearest shop).

Some people were angry with police for not letting them see the body of Dr.Rajkumar for the last time, not with god.

Your illiteracy regarding such matters regularly shows up, so either quit your bashanbazi or learn about the issue before speaking.

So yes, while I believe that flag is a potent symbol of patriotism but I also remember that often ‘patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel’

So millions who died for Indian independence must be scoundrels then or you and your parents who gave you birth but failed in educating you must be the scoundrels. You choose birather.

[ramana]

Was the Dandi march also a symbolism? Was Gandhiji silly to make salt from sea? Wasn't it an assertion of a unalienable right?

[Virupaksha]

bhagat singh also took his took his last refuge in patriotism.

[Rudradev]

what the mind does not want to know eyes cannot see is a often quoted term. You selectively recall a BJP yatra. In the same way recall many other yatra or procession or whatever you want to call by other parties and the violence associated with it.

Then those other yatras/processions should not have been allowed to take place. Ensured peace needs to be the first priority. Addressing the root causes of unrest comes later.

Sorry for the belated response, I just saw this now while clicking back.

I see that it is a recurrent theme:

Even if it were, all fundamental rights are subject to reasonable restrictions (Subject to Public Health, Morality, law and order.. etc.. as stated I think) and I do think the threat of violence and disorder is a very valid ground to curb the exercise of such a right.

Ok, I'd like to ask the respected posters a few questions:

1) How exactly do you plan to legislate this? Given that the constitution of India allows the peaceful assembly of citizens as part and parcel of the fundamental right to expression? And that the Indian Flag code does indeed guarantee private citizens allowance to display the flag?

Or is it that in Pigvijay-world, the "rule of law" only matters when it's convenient to the Maino-Manmohan Cabal?

2) Taking out processions or yatras has been a part of democratic Indian tradition for centuries, since the first Ganesh immersion processions were taken out by Tilak in a show of social and political consolidation at community level. Even longer than that (as Swamy pointed out) if you consider all of Indic civilization. How do you legislate against the form of political self-expression which Gandhi himself undertook when he marched to the sea?

3) Besides political processions, religious processions are very much a part of the Indian social landscape. Why should these be exempt? Do you never hear of riots breaking out because a religious procession by one community gave takleef to another community? It follows that religious processions constitute a potential threat of civil strife, violence and disorder, do they not? And, are all those processions Hindu?

Just as a hypothetical case study:

Let us say the Shiv Sena is upset about something and does a lot of bus-burning and stone throwing one particular week, in Mumbai.

The next week is Moharram. Shi'a Muslim citizens of India exercise their fundamental right by taking out a procession. Suddenly, Shiv Sainiks fall on the procession with bottles and stones and knives, killing many of the devotees. After this the Sena engages in street battles with Muslims and against the police, torching shops, vandalizing homes and places of business. Many lives are lost.

So in this situation, to the respected posters quoted above: What is the correct application of law and order?

Should Moharram processions be banned in following years, just in case the Shiv Sena gets some khujli a few weeks ahead of time and therefore might use Moharram as a pretext to commit violence and vandalism?

Should the right of the Moharram devotees to engage in religious ceremonial procession be abrogated, because there is a "fear" of "violence and disorder" by Shiv Sena vandals breaking the law?

Or is this inapplicable in the situation I have described, but only becomes applicable when the "certain communities" swap places? If so, what message exactly is being sent to the jihadi terrorists and secessionists in Kashmir... that you can get away with things an ordinary citizen of India cannot? If that message is being sent... which it clearly is... how exactly does it help the consolidation and integration of J&K into India? How does it lead to anything but the sellout and give-away that Maino-MMS Cabal have planned for Jammu & Kashmir?

Please don't try to hide in grey areas now, after making the very categorical assertions on this subject that I have quoted above! You have said that "ensured peace needs to be the first priority" (VivS) and "the threat of violence and disorder is a very valid ground to curb the exercise of such a right" (Vina). To maintain your credibility, such assertions must be backed up by a categorical yes/no answer to my primary question: should the right of Muslims to engage in religious processions (like Muharram) be abrogated because of the threat of Shiv Sena violence breaking out?

[negi]

Muppalla ji It is not as straightforward as it looks , remember the Amarnath yatra last time ? even though their party leadership and spokespersons in dilli and in front of the eMedia claim to be opposing the yatra their workers in the state itself would cleverly distance themselves from openly protesting against such a movement for INC unlike the NC is a national party and it realizes that it requires a 'sizeable' portion of the majority vote bank to be in center.

INC's greatest weapon is doublespeak and not taking a stand on any issue , they did the same during Babri demolition,Amarnath Yatra and even now (by making OA as the frontman in charge while it is PC who is doing the heavy lifting).

[vina]

However - there should be reasonable restrictions - and therefore the government's attitude should have been - OK, you want to hoist the flag. As the government we will PROTECT your fundamental right. But here are the set of guidelines you have to follow - you would need to involve the local community out there, you would need to do a , b etc....

Why in heaven's name was this attitude not visible?

Err.. What is so difficult here. The govt did place "reasonable restrictions" as saying dont do it in Lal Chowk, do it in the stadium where there is an official invite for you and oh, you can't have 15000 people here. Your rights will be protected

Now if you throw that out of the window and jump up and down saying "Jhanda Wahin Leharayenge!" and I will mass 15000 people in downtown Srinagar, then any govt will have no option but to abridge you of that right on the valid apprehension of a disturbance to peace!.

Sorry. It is the BJP that is being unreasonable here.

[Arjun]

Omar Abdullah is actually going to become the winner in this. His ratings will only increase in the valley because he stood up against the "Hindooz" "The RSS", "The BJP".
Congress I is going to lose its electorate because of the emotions of nationalism coming into play here

.. Here we are, talking about "winners" and "losers", while at the same time assuring people that it is "100% about hoisting the national flag"! Nice try. The cat is out of the bag innit?

Hmmm, maybe you have the ability to differentiate between the various posters out here, Vinaji? Or does the wisdom that we see on display out here tell you that the same person has made this two distinct points that you have conflated in your statement?

[Raghavendra]

The problem is that such marches scare only women and children and can be used as an example of 'hegemony' or a target of opportunity.

Women are part of the Ekta yatra, Sushma swaraj and hundreds of women are part of the march.

So stop your fear mongering

[Raghavendra]

However the point is that even in 2010 South Carolina (which was defeated and assimilated) is allowed to fly it's seceded flag out of deference of the wishes of the state citizens. The union does not weep and wail about how this is an affront to the unity of the United States.

India is not america. You wont to follow american laws, go live in america. You want to live in India then follow Indian laws. Indian law is clear in that there is ONLY ONE national flag

[Prem]

It is the 1947 club

Acharya, the Hindu of today is not the Hindu of 1947. That is what they should have realized in 1992. I am looking forward to another lesson being taught.

If Moloy Dhar is correct , there is already fire burning in the hearts of Indic and its gonna burn the Congressi tent made of red and green color. Any tweet from the Bambini Gandhi?

[vera_k]

Many other States seceded - Texas, Virginia etc. But that is not the point. The civil war was over in 1864, when General Robert E Lee surrendered with his confederate forces to General Grant. However the point is that even in 2010 South Carolina (which was defeated and assimilated) is allowed to fly it's seceded flag out of deference of the wishes of the state citizens. The union does not weep and wail about how this is an affront to the unity of the United States.

The point is that the confederate flag is allowed to be flown AFTER the victory was won when there is no danger of the confederate flag supplanting the stars and stripes.

[Arjun]

However - there should be reasonable restrictions - and therefore the government's attitude should have been - OK, you want to hoist the flag. As the government we will PROTECT your fundamental right. But here are the set of guidelines you have to follow - you would need to involve the local community out there, you would need to do a , b etc....

Why in heaven's name was this attitude not visible?

Err.. What is so difficult here. The govt did place "reasonable restrictions" as saying dont do it in Lal Chowk, do it in the stadium where there is an official invite for you and oh, you can't have 15000 people here. Your rights will be protected

Now if you throw that out of the window and jump up and down saying "Jhanda Wahin Leharayenge!" and I will mass 15000 people in downtown Srinagar, then any govt will have no option but to abridge you of that right on the valid apprehension of a disturbance to peace!.

Sorry. It is the BJP that is being unreasonable here.

What is the rationale for 'don't do it in Lal Chowk'? There is no convincing case. Firstly the fact that the flag of the country CAN create a disturbance - does not speak well of the country's state of togetherness and integrity. There are some symbols which by definition are ABOVE all sectarian and communal ideas - the national flag most definitely should and does fall in this category. By questioning the fact that the national flag is above sectarian ideas - the government runs the risk of demeaning the symbol with potentially fatal consequences for the future of the country.

[arnab]

Has anyone here seen the movie 'Ghare Baire' (Home and the World)(by Satyajit Ray) or read the book (by Tagore)?

[Raghavendra]

Maybe the BJP will like to take up the issue of Kashmiri Pandits and may be try to get JUSTICE for Kashmiri Pandits

Why dont you try to get JUSTICE for kashmiri pandits

You have whole website dedicated to security matters

Why not an webpage on victims of terrorism and ethnic cleansing?

For BJP to rally support in J&K they may like to involve kashmiri youth in the main stream.

Maybe BJP may like to do something for the upliftment of kashmiri women by opening job avenues in the private sector by inviting investment from businesses operating in other states

Maybe Vivek Raghuvanshi may like to do something for the upliftment of kashmiri women by giving them jobs in his security company.

Waving the flag is so insignificant. Who cares.

Only the shameless cowards dont care

Similarly for BJP to win the hearts of North East women, they need to genuinely work for their upliftment, youth in North East will love BJP.

But for this BJP will have to genuinely do honest social work in North East as well

Maybe Vivek Raghuvanshi for change will write something that will make some sense.

The issue being discussed is Jammu & Kashmir

These pathetic trolls hired by congress party try to bring up unconnected issues and try to waste our time

Maybe if these losers in life valued their time they wouldnt be licking waitress ki jhoothi to earn money

[Raghavendra]

Has anyone here seen the movie 'Ghare Baire' (Home and the World)(by Satyajit Ray) or read the book (by Tagore)?

Has anyone here seen the movie 'Borat' or read the book "How to debate with congress party trolls?"

[Virupaksha]

Ramana,
The parallel between this yatra and dandi march are pretty much clear.

Both the salt & the flag evoke strong feelings in common people. Both the icons are rubbished as inconsequential by the elite and the suave of the day.
The british thought that salt was too meagre an issue to think about. The statesmen about the choice of salt wrote ""It is difficult not to laugh, and we imagine that will be the mood of most thinking Indians.""

and here we have today "Waving the flag is so insignificant. Who cares."

But whether this will reach that status is an open question. We will know in a few days.

[arnab]

This is the same futile exercise we've followed for a long while. The way to go as proven by any past insurgency in India has been to get boots on the ground. KMs need not fear the IA, but they do not have to identify with the IA> in any case, what has been achieved by numbers cannot be achieved by talks. What has been going on for 20 years will not result in a miraculous end to the insurgency and a change of heart in KMs. There are many KMs who want this pain to end, but are not particularly inclined to support calls for secession. To bring them back, show them boots on the ground. Show them other Indians so they may identify with India. If they choose otherwise, let them move out as they allowed the militants to move out KPs. Ce La Vie.

I agree - but when you say 'boots on the ground' Do you mean augmenting the force levels? The only way to get permanent non kashmiri 'boots on the ground' is to get rid of Art 370. I think BJP will need to highlight this in their manifesto (link it to the fact that they were not allowed to unfurl the flag in J&K) - but get people to think as to what the removal of 370 will mean.

[Raja Ram]

Posting this as a reply to a private mail from ramana after his clearance

The question
A question. What is behind the full force response of Centre to foil the BJP flag hoisting run? It cant be just the Kashmir law and order thing. That has been bad since Omar took over.

Thanks,

My Answer

I hope you had read my post a few weeks ago titled "Beware of the Ides of March" on BR forum. I had mentioned therein a few straws in the wind. Let me eloborate here. Obama is committed to cut and arrive at a compromise in Afghanistan. The will to stay the course is not there. The Pakistanis are now in such a downward spiral, that no one is really in control of the situation. The Pakistani Army remains forever India focused and is sensing the American inability to stay the course as a chance to recover back Afghanistan.

The USG definitely wants to cut a deal with Pakistan that will facilitate American draw down of troops and ensuring that no further attacks are organized from Af Pak region. Obama is the Neville Chameberlain of our times.

The time table that Obama has announced would mean that the Pakistanis have asked for a price. That price is for stabilizing itself. The usual gun to the head based demands are:

1. India should cut and run from Afghanistan and should not have any role to play at all
2. India should settle Kashmir in a way that Pakistani establishment can claim victory
3. US and China should act together to deny India supremacy in the region and China should be allowed to give a similar nuclear deal to Pakistan. US should help through China in its efforts in the nuclear deal
4. The west and everyone should write off debt, give more money

In return Pakistan would
1. Never allow a base to develop in the region that would organize terror attacks on the US (it will try to restrain acts against India and not provide "official policy" support but cannot guarantee against "non-state" actor terror strikes - it will however promise to bring to book any such perpterators)
2. Will settle for a compromise on Kashmir as long as it gains territory to show for its efforts. The Indian side should make borders irrelevant, and the hold on Kashmir by the GOI should be tenous at best.
3. Pakistan will promise not proliferate nuclear weapons and will cap its capability. India should do likewise and not enhance its delivery capability or nuclear stockpile. The US India nuclear deal should be used as a leverage.

The USG seems to be ok to cut a deal along these lines. In the Indian leadership of MMS and Sonia, they have willing partners. MMS is a strong believer that India's foremost duty is to deliver itself from poverty and it should not become anything other than an economic power. He is also a firm dissenter of a nuclear India. He does not believe in the sanctity of maintaining India's soverign options. Sonia Gandhi has nothing but a mercenary relationship with regard to India. Her motivations are also from her native faith of Christianity and perpetuating the hold of her family in the party and on India.

As per the plan, the Indian people are to be won over by a mix of economic populism fueled by the growing economy, creating a fear amongst minorities of any nationalistic force by painting them as anti-secular, building a based of crony capitalistic sources of power, money and influence. The actions of the current dispensation reeks of this mindset.

The systematic rolling back of the armed forces in J&K, the slow but steady PR campaign that has been unleashed to prepare the Indian public for the need for peace as a precursor for growth and "super power" status through campaigns like "Aman ki Aasha", A Roy and gang's assorted conferences without any hindrance from the state, the constant and high profile propogating of the twin myths (A stable, prosperous Pakistan is in India's interest and There is no alternative but to talk and settle), the appointment of the interlocutors and their acts following the same are pointers. If seen under the context of the US intent, pakistani demand and the congress leadership's predilictions, it will provide the answer to the happenings in the J&K today.

The BJP has been forced to do this yatra. Please remember that it was because of a similar yatra by SP Mukherjee that the rights of rest of Indians to visit this part of India was asserted. He went there in defiance of the ban on entry by Indians and hoisted the flag there. He resigned from Nehru's ministry and did what he did. He was rewarded with death for his act. Nehru was ok with the idea then to keep kashmir in trishanku swarga. He himself was not averse to the idea that Kashmir was special and should be protected from rest of India.

While MM Joshi's march did not attract the same populist fervour of Advani, it was far more important than Advani's at that time. The separatists were at their peak and there was popular and wide spread support for them in the valley, and Pakistani infiltration was at its peak. It was an act of asserting national soverignity. It went un noticed and un appreciated by the media elite and the elite in India. But it did send a message to those it was primarily intended - the Pakistani puppet masters and to their cat's paws in the valley.

The Amarnath shrine related demonstrations in Jammu are a watershed in the events of Kashmir. The power in that state has been long dominated by the Kashmir valley politicians. It demonstrated that there is a ground swell of support to a nationalist call in the state. It also sparked the re-assertion of the other regions of J&K of their right to chart their destiny as a part of India.

If you look at history, it is often filled with symbolism. That is why it is not right to dismiss the flag hoisting is political gimmickry by a cut throat opposition, because it has not been able to project a charismatic leadership. The BJP has many faults. It is aware of them. It is trying to the best of its ability to correct them. However, it also recognises that it has to be true to its role as an opposition. It cannot be just watching silently these concerted efforts to do a deal to please the agenda of foreign powers.

It has to act. Now it knows that it has "communal" tag associated with it. What should a responsible opposition do? It has tried to organise a reassertment of national soverignity by way of a symbolic act. It has adopted a way that is peaceful, a cause that no one can have any issue with, through an act that is essentially lawful and well protected as per judgements of the supreme court. It has also invited others to join in this across party lines. It has not whipped up any religious or ethinic fervour against Kashmiris in any way.

Is there a precedent for this. Of course, the famous Dandi March itself was along these lines was it not? Does any right thinking Indian question and dismiss Gandhiji's act of making salt as political gimmickry? Was it not a symbolic act? Did not galvanize a nation for a national cause? Can it be dismissed as a useless act? It became a watershed event in India's march to freedom.

India's is at a inflexion point. We have the demographic dividend in our favour. We have built national capabilities against great odds, we have now a chance to have our own narrative and assert ourselves basing on Indian thought and ethos. A rise of India is imminent and inevitable. It is but natural that it causes concern across status quo power structures. There will be attempts to take control of India by different means. A united India is something that must be averted at all cost by many powers. Many powers, for different reasons, would want to do their utmost to unravel India.

Given the many fault lines that we still have as a nation, it is imperative that the political parties across the spectrum maintain a Lakshman Rekha when it comes to discussing national soverignity or maintenance of national soverign options. Unfortunately, a great political party like the INC is not being true to its own legacy. The BJP, despite its many faults and failings, is trying to do its duty here.

It is imperative today that this symbolic act be done to ensure the assertion of national soverignity and our national strategic options.

It saddens me to see how otherwise intelligent posters in BR forums are seeing so many devils into what is essentially the need of the hour. We should not be apologetic in asserting our nationhood in Kashmir. May be I have become an irrelevant Indian, disconnected from reality given that others are seeing nothing but petty political grandstanding. I leave it to you to judge, if what is at stake is just political gains or re-asserting our national soverignity which is at risk through some back room wheeling and dealing. It is not prudent to march to distant drum beats of others, has always been my refrain though.

Regards
Rajaram

As usual a ramble from me. Please take it for what it is worth

[arnab]

Has anyone here seen the movie 'Ghare Baire' (Home and the World)(by Satyajit Ray) or read the book (by Tagore)?

Has anyone here seen the movie 'Borat' or read the book "How to debate with congress party trolls?"

Well evidently you wouldn't have. Possibly it is in english and would require a level of comprehension skills

[Prem]

If some so called "people" get upset at the sight of Tiranga in lal Chowk then i am sorry why TF i should care about these people and their sentiment . AFAI am concerned they aint one of us and as good as dead Paki to us Indians. Hope next year at least half a million Saffron robe wearers unfurl the flag at this very same occasion on the same spot. Let this be not a one time event but new tradition from now on , annual pligrimage by all Indians to pay homage to the Rishi Kashyap.

[Pranav]

Ramana ji, what is worse is that no one is asking why we should give a damn if the separatists feel bad about the Tricolour being hoisted.

There is no reason to give a damn and in fact, showing some resolve may even get some fence-sitters to come to the Indian nationalist side, provided this is not perceived as an attack on regional or religious identity.

That is why I suggest that a joint group of Pandits and Muslim victims of Jihad (there are plenty of those too) be at the forefront.

[munna]

Great post Raja Ram ji now it is easy to place your earlier posts about MMS announcing unpalatable measures and then quitting. Sadhuwad.

[Raghavendra]

Well evidently you wouldn't have. Possibly it is in english and would require a level of comprehension skills

We have seen your superb comprehension skills in calling patriots as scoundrels

Need i say more about your lack of proper education

[abhishek_sharma]

An editorial in Navbharat Times (Hindi) criticizes Railway's decision to divert the train containing BJP workers. It is somewhat mild, but it is a good start.

[Dhiman]

Wrong analogy IMO. South Carolina did secede at one point, but the secession was put down with use of force. The right analogy is letting the existing Pakistan flag fly in Srinagar after Pakistan no longer exists as a separate entity alongside India.

Many other States seceded - Texas, Virginia etc. But that is not the point. The civil war was over in 1864, when General Robert E Lee surrendered with his confederate forces to General Grant. However the point is that even in 2010 South Carolina (which was defeated and assimilated) is allowed to fly it's seceded flag out of deference of the wishes of the state citizens. The union does not weep and wail about how this is an affront to the unity of the United States.

All states in US have their individual flags. Typically you fly both the state flag and the national flag with the US flag flying higher than the state flag. But the analogy is false. The real analogy is what US would do if a terrorist organization (like that of Yasin Malik) started to fly a terrorist flag (or worse the Pakistani flag) in middle of a US city.

[negi]

Raja Ram ji I just have one question, why don't we divide the J&K state itself ? It can serve as an excuse to re map the constituencies as per the distribution of the electorate in the state. You see sometimes 'division' is desirable in larger interest of the locals as well as the country (akin to the likes of Uttarakhand, Chattisgarh and Jharkhand). If BJP can take an initiative and ask for a separate state for Jammu + Leh + Laddakh not only would it succeed in polarizing the electorate in the state (until the formation of a new state) it would also help quarantine the mess as the new state would not have to be under article 370. The rot that exists in the valley which is a major roadblock as far as development of the state is concerned would be easier to clean once the Abdullahs have been cornered and their influence only limited to the valley itself. You see even the separatists realise that outisde the valley not many in Jammu and other regions buy into their farce and that is why Hurriyat and JKLF have been liberally using Gandhi, secular and KPs in their speeches these days. There is another reason why I believe 'division' is the way to go i.e. to be honest republic of India today does not have the power to repeal article 370 hence in the short term by polarizing the electorate in the name of dividing the state it would at least help the party in question to make a dent in the NC-INC vote bank.

[arnab]

All states in US have their individual flags. Typically you fly both the state flag and the national flag with the US flag flying higher than the state flag.

Yes but this is a Confederate flag (not South Carolina's flag).

[Sachin]

As usual a ramble from me. Please take it for what it is worth

So in a nut shell. A man comes up with oranges (good economy) and another confronts him with a gun (terrorism, muscle power). So who finally who gets both the oranges and the gun? .

[abhishek_sharma]

^ Then they will say "100% people in new Kashmir state want to be Pakis. So give it to them." They will pass a new resolution in their legislature everyday.

[munna]

We have seen your superb comprehension skills in calling patriots as scoundrels

Need i say more about your lack of proper education

Calm down bhaiya Bheem! why let the perpetrators act as victims? Let him and his faction be, their facts have no legs to stand on and it is crystal clear. Remember the bottom line is that with this yatra despite being in vastly outnumbered opposition nationalists have reclaimed "initiative" hence the khujli and Takleef. Enjoy the squirming and name calling by them but do not indulge in the same.

[arnab]

We have seen your superb comprehension skills in calling patriots as scoundrels

Need i say more about your lack of proper education

Possibly you wouldn't have understood the meaning of the 'quotation marks' which went along with that sentence considering your long weepy rant on the topic So if there has been a lack of education, it is not at my end.

[vina]

All states in US have their individual flags. Typically you fly both the state flag and the national flag with the US flag flying higher than the state flag.

Yes. Well, in Karnataka , there is a ochre and turmeric colored flag that is considered the "Karnataka Flag" which has no "official " sanction,but is flown in every street corner of Bangalore and it is a very well loved and popular flag. None of the other states I know of have such a flag (though there are official state emblems).

I really don't see what is the problem in all this at all. India's constitution gives the states near sovereign powers (though not as clear a federal state as say US or even Switzerland or Germany), it works fine. I only hope that we adopt the ONE thing from the US experience and take away from the states and that is "Interstate Commerce". In one fell swoop, it will remove all the internal trade barriers, licensing and octroi and entry tax ,revenue checkposts and this and that and allow seamless sourcing, supply and distribution of goods and services across state boundaries and create a truly Nation state sized goods and services market.

[RamaY]

The best thing for the BJP is to call off this cynical exercise, join the J&K govt in the flag hoisting and come back as the good guys after having made the point.

BJP leaders already made this offer to OA. But OA is too foolish to understand the gravity of the situation and accept it.

Re US - South Carolina flies the confederate flag to this day. Neither Democrats nor Republicans want to take it down. Isn't it akin to alowing J&K state assembly to fly their own flag on 15th august? Is south Carolina seceding anytime soon?

Q1. What is the flag of J&K state flag? Please post an image of the flag of JK kingdom before 1947.

Q2. Does it mean one cannot fly the US flag in South Carolina? Does the state and federal govt deny flying of US flag on July 4th?

[BijuShet]

2 Pictures taken at Lal Chowk (from September 2010 - just 4 months ago). The J&K state Govt and UPA central govt forgot to advice these gentle folks against the use of Lal Chowk. Neither did their spokesperson suggest shifting to a nearby stadium to accomodate the large crowds who had gathered to fly their beloved flag.

crowd gathered at the Lal Chowk :


Crowd hoisting their beloved flag:


Desh vasiyon ko ek sandesh, Mandir wahin banayenge aur Tiranga wahin lehraenge.

Bolo Bharat Mata ki Jai!!! Jai Shri Ram!!!