Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 2010)

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Hari Seldon
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Hari Seldon »

Excellent Roubini piece in newsweek that lays bare part of the cheena conundrum with plenty of layman lingo and enough numbers to make a solid case.

Seven reasons why the Chinese save, when they really should be spending.

Recommended read. Some good excerpts:
But no country can be so productive that it can take, every year, half its GDP and reinvest it into more capital stock without eventually ending up with a huge excess capacity and a mountain of bad loans. Thus, China needs to radically change its growth model from net exports and investment to reduced saving and more consumption. There are, however, many structural reasons why the Chinese save too much and consume too little. (Consumption in China is 36 percent of GDP, about half of what it is in the U.S. and in emerging economies like [India]
Seventh, the average citizen in China doesn’t save more than one in Hong Kong, Singapore, or East Asia: they are all Confucian savers, and tend to salt away a third of after-tax income. A big difference, however, is that a whopping 25 percent of savings in China is in the form of the retained earnings of the corporate sector, mostly state-owned enterprises (SOEs). In most private economies, those firms’ profits would become dividends that would increase household income and thus consumption. In China, they become retained profits that go into more capital accumulation and excess capacity. The Chinese policy of an undervalued currency and low cost of capital for public firms (and thus low return to savings for households) has implied a massive transfer of income from households (that thus can’t spend) to SOEs (that thus overinvest). Short of privatizing the SOEs or massively taxing their profits and transferring that income to households, savings will remain too high, consumption too low, and investment excessive. Yet the SOEs are politically powerful while households are impotent, so reform could prove a major challenge.
Clearly China needs to radically change its broken growth model in the direction of reduced exports, investment and savings, and increased consumption. But there are structural—and cultural—reasons why the Chinese save so much and consume so little. Radical policy reforms may take more than a generation to rebalance the Chinese economy toward a more sustainable growth model.
Hari Seldon
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Hari Seldon »

OK, if true this is newsworthy, IMVHO. Seems Irish central bank is printing money and not borrowing it from the ECB. Ponder on the implications and ramifications.

Irish lenders besiege central bank for emergency loans

That's sri AEP in the telegraf.
Irish banks are running out of collateral they can use to borrow from the European Central Bank, turning instead for emergency support from their own central bank on an unprecedented scale. The latest data shows that Anglo Irish Bank and other lenders had borrowed €51bn (£43bn) from the Irish central bank by the end of December, under an obscure progamme listed in the balance sheet as "other assets".

This comes on top of €132bn in loans from the ECB itself, the figure normally tracked by analysts and itself 24pc of all ECB lending. "This is a horror story: it shows the cataclysmic condition of the Irish banking system," said Tim Congdon from International Monetary Research. "The banks have borrowed €183bn in total, or 110pc of Irish GDP. They have burned through all their capital and a lot of their deposits as well. This is going to end up on the national debt".

The actions of the Irish central bank are authorised by Frankfurt, but fall into a grey area of monetary policy since they appear to involve creation of money outside the normal control of the ECB's governing council. :eek:

The use of Ireland's emergency liquidity assistance programme (ELA) raises further questions since the quality of collateral is unacceptable for normal ECB operations. The volume of borrowing has begun to level off after a surge in November.
There you have it. Irish central bank's creating its own money outta thin air even as Ireland is part of the Eurozone and only ECB had that money printing mandate. First cracks in a dam or what? Any bets on whether spain, portugal, belgaum and sweet ol' greece wants to follow suit, eh??

BTW, guess why irish banks ran outta collateral....Irish savers got smart and are bank-running only, quietly. Only. More later.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Neshant »

suckers are *desperately* needed to fund public sector pensions.

the hard earned money of someone needs to be confiscated to pay for these lavish handouts.

its clear that during this collapse, some will indeed be living comfortably... off the backs of others.

---
States Warned of $2 Trillion Pensions Shortfall

http://www.cnbc.com/id/41129099
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by SwamyG »

Hari Seldon wrote:Excellent Roubini piece in newsweek that lays bare part of the cheena conundrum with plenty of layman lingo and enough numbers to make a solid case.

Seven reasons why the Chinese save, when they really should be spending.
Why would you say it is excellent. He essentially wants Chinese to consume more. Heck, as if the World did not have enough problems already. Roubini is still trapped in the Western Economic framework, I guess. Consumption for the sake for consumption and running the economy will bring takleef to the people.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by SwamyG »

I do not want to start a discussion on Apple or Steve Jobs in this thread, the reason I post the below quote is to point out the expectations from analysts and investors of a public traded company. It tells us the way Corporations and the Western countries have evolved.

Apple Set To Enjoy Bumper Q1 Despite Jobs Absence
“Running a $100 billion (£62 billion) annual revenue company while being forced to take periodic medical leaves is not fair to anyone (e.g., most of all to Jobs, AAPL investors or its employees/board),” Marshall wrote in a 18 January note.
And this expectation from a company that is generally undervalued by the Wall Street but still has been performing admirably well for the investors. The society now has so much takleef over a man who has a bad illness (could be very well dying). Greed and entitlement attitude has driven the humans into a very dark corner. Humans, the species that has changed this planet so much.

But then to present another side of the story, how reporters complain the company manipulates the information. Apple jerks our chains
Even for reporters who regularly cover Apple (AAPL) and are used to getting manipulated by the company's well-oiled PR machine, this is a headsnap.

One day we're supposed process the news that Steve Jobs is too sick to run world's most valuable technology company. The next we're expected to report -- as if nothing had happened -- the financial details of what everybody expects will be Apple's biggest quarter ever.

Nukkad is the place to talk about Apple or Steve Jobs in particular. I think discussing Corporations or the investment climate might be germane to the dhaaga as it would definitely offer us some perspective.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by RamaY »

wow Apple is making $15-$20b quarterly revenues based on its limited product line IPhones, IPads, IMacs and IPods?
Hari Seldon
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Hari Seldon »

swamy g,

Excellent in a descriptive & not necessarily a prescriptive sense.

Besides, advocating putting in place the basics of a social and medical safety net for mango cheenis under cpc yoke, forced into 1-child and land-grab and internal movement restriction and etc etc policies isn't soooo bad a thing now, is it?
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Ambar »

Hari Seldon wrote:Excellent Roubini piece in newsweek that lays bare part of the cheena conundrum with plenty of layman lingo and enough numbers to make a solid case.
But no country can be so productive that it can take, every year, half its GDP and reinvest it into more capital stock without eventually ending up with a huge excess capacity and a mountain of bad loans. Thus, China needs to radically change its growth model from net exports and investment to reduced saving and more consumption. There are, however, many structural reasons why the Chinese save too much and consume too little. (Consumption in China is 36 percent of GDP, about half of what it is in the U.S. and in emerging economies like [India]
A big difference, however, is that a whopping 25 percent of savings in China is in the form of the retained earnings of the corporate sector, mostly state-owned enterprises (SOEs). In most private economies, those firms’ profits would become dividends that would increase household income and thus consumption. In China, they become retained profits that go into more capital accumulation and excess capacity.
[/quote]

The gist of Roubini's article seems to be about high savings and reinvestment rate in China compared to other countries. He says China consumes too late and saves too much compared to its peers and quotes India as an example. But India has a higher household savings rate than China, and when i last checked our reinvestment / capital formation stood well over 35% of our GDP..so we are not too far behind China. Yet we are steaming ahead with 10% YoY growth in GDP defying the current economic slowdown. I agree about excess capacity being a problem in China, but i don't understand how capital formation and a higher savings rate could pose a risk to China's economic model? If it does, then aren't we in the same boat?
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Singha »

I dont think any co in history had made $100b / annum with what amounts to 7 products - ipod, ipad, iphone, macbook, macbook pro, mac desktop and air mac. most large MNCs with dozens of successful products do not make half as much. their per employee revenue count must be off the chart.

in that way they have re-written the rulebook and definitely worthy of much case study.
Hari Seldon
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Hari Seldon »

Ambar sahib,
The gist of Roubini's article seems to be about high savings and reinvestment rate in China compared to other countries. He says China consumes too late and saves too much compared to its peers and quotes India as an example. But India has a higher household savings rate than China, and when i last checked our reinvestment / capital formation stood well over 35% of our GDP..so we are not too far behind China. Yet we are steaming ahead with 10% YoY growth in GDP defying the current economic slowdown. I agree about excess capacity being a problem in China, but i don't understand how capital formation and a higher savings rate could pose a risk to China's economic model? If it does, then aren't we in the same boat?
cheena's higher savings rate per se isn't the problem that is leading oh-ah all the doominess. Normally, if the household sector saves hajaar then the govt and corporate sectors must spend like drunken sailors merely to balance only. However, in cheena, IMVHO, the main problem is the CPC/sarkar arrogating the right to invest/spend the people's hard earned monies by denying them dividends, pathetically low interests on deposits coupled with stout denial of alternate cash parking avenues, rampant inflation in no small measure due to the requisite sterlization of an excessively massive forex horde eating away at whatever the mango cheeni does manage to save and last but not least rampant mismanagement of hoarded assets, obscenely rampant capital misallocation in white elephant local govt realty and hi-tech projects (high speed rail, for example) - all of which have little or no potential to give economic return on the trillions churned into them so far. Only.

Of course, that is not to say all is hunky dory in Desh. Our sarkar has managed to be as profligate and reckless as it could get away with but that is puny in comparison to what a CPC can get away with in cheena. Still, rough winds will hit us too soon. There's never an eternally smooth ride, as the myth of the 'great moderation' now conclusively shows.
Only.

Sorry if moi ramblings aren't making great sense. Jai ho and all that.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Hari Seldon »

Very interesting discussion....
What a “Get Tough With China” Stance Would Really Look Like

I think Yves smith nails it here:
Before every get-together with China, the US goes through some ritualized complaining (the value of its currency has been the recent big talking point), the Chinese do some sabre rattling of their own, and perilous little of substance happens, except that the Chinese continue to have an economy with a substantial current account surplus, which not only works to the detriment of its major trade partners, but at this scale contributes to financial instability.
Ditto the bolded part above. cheeni surpluses continue their inexorable march. There's no sign of any course correction on that fundamental destabilizing factor. None. Zilch. nada.

More:
It is key to recognize that Chinese consumption has not risen relative to GDP, which is what needs to happen for the imbalances to moderate. And even though the grumbling between the US and China has focused on the exchange rate, there are other issues in play which get little commentary.
Re the bolded part, not only has consumption share in cheeni GDP not risen, it has actually fallen only! I know, the horror. To quote sane Brit sri Martin Wolf in FT:
China ... allowed an extraordinary surge in exports and the current account surplus to mask the development of an increasingly unbalanced domestic economy. Chinese household consumption collapsed from an already very low share of 46 per cent of gross domestic product in 2000 to a mere 35 per cent in 2008.
Meanwhile, Steve Pearlstein in the Washington Post outlines what a more forceful negotiating posture might look like:
The right response to these challenges would be for the president this week to laud China for the success of its economic policies and announce that the administration will begin forthwith to apply each and every one of them to Chinese exports into the United States. :lol: Subsidies and directed credit for local companies, buy-American provisions for government agencies and government contractors, currency manipulation, the rules on “conditional market access” and “indigenous innovation” – surely China could hardly complain if we were to pay them the highest compliment by embracing their economic model.
:rotfl:
To start things off, the administration might announce its intention to bl
Oh, the sense of dark humor in there is eerily funny only. Read it all, ensoi...
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by ramana »

There was an Insurance Risk guy on bloomberg radio saying that US needs to understand emergnig markets are managing to keep their economies from overheating and shouldn't expect to have exports to those countries. I guess what he is saying is demand in developing countries is going down.

Also Joseph Nye the Harvard scholar and former State Dept official was syainghe was in India last week and his view is in 30 years maximum there will be an economic Chindia. The US and Chindia will be the economic powers.

Sad thing is Indian polticians behave like village zamindars and have no clue about the transformation going on.

Looting chiilar when the world is at your feet!
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by SwamyG »

^^^
Frog in the well syndrome. Or are they content with what they have?
Last edited by SwamyG on 20 Jan 2011 01:29, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Abhijeet »

ramana wrote:Also Joseph Nye the Harvard scholar and former State Dept official was syainghe was in India last week and his view is in 30 years maximum there will be an economic Chindia. The US and Chindia will be the economic powers.
I really dislike the term Chindia.

Chindia is only from the perspective of the US who will look at any rival powers as a unified "other". From the point of view of India, there will be no close alignment with China as the term Chindia suggests. Every 2050 forecast I've seen has China far ahead in terms of GDP. Of course, the forecasts could be wrong, but they are consistent.

Indians really shouldn't be patting themselves on the back for being part of a mythical "Chindia". (I'm not suggesting that you are, ramana, but a lot of people do.) Even if the Indian economy is about the same size as the US economy in 2050, that still means that the average Indian will be only 20% as well off as the average American, assuming that the Indian population is about 5x the population in the US (it's now about 4x, and growing faster).

That's about where Mexico and the US are, relative to each other, right now. A better situation than today, of course, but not really rich on a global scale.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by ramana »

See they say prespective is important. And its right there in the thread titel.

From US POV its: CHINDIA
From Indian POV its: G-2
From PRC point of view its: USINDIA
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Prem »

Is Chinese economic growth prediction based on their current Export policy/strength onlee? The distortion in their reserves and portion of internal economy cannot be carried on for ever. I wont be so eager in calling CHINIDia mythical . PRC is ahead by 7-10 years and with future economic indicators pointing of slowing down in China and picking up of steam in India ,it will be interesting to watch how long the gap will continue to last. If india is not becoming US then neither will China measured with same yardstick. I will bet on long term future on private enterpreneurship anyday than short term command economic miracle.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Hari Seldon »

TAE Tweet roundup:
http://twitter.com/#!/automaticearth
Crackdown on Tax Evasion Yields Results in Spain. Tax recouped from cheats up 23pc to record $13.4 Bn http://nyti.ms/ichBIe
Aah. This is another trend that was predicted not so long ago. Recall UKstani assault on that boor little tax shelter island haven a few short months ago.... recall unkil arm twisting oiro tax havens into spilling beans on US tax evaders...

But why for all this drama when they could tax wall st bonuses 50% and recover far more far more easily only....
@jritch In 2010 GM sold more cars in China than in the United States for the first time. KFC+Pizza Hut now has higher sales in China than US

GM, which closed 13 U.S. plants since its bankruptcy filing in 2009, has opened 15 plants in China in the last 10 years.

China accounts for 35pc of global use of base metals, 21pc of grains, and 10pc of crude oil. SocGen Report.
Should file under 'The east-west rebalancing act' perhaps? BTW, expect these TNCs or former US-based MNCs who retain their lobbying clout in COTUS to be ever more vocal on the hill in Beijing's favor..
Big 4 thug banks hold about 35pc of all deposits; and control about 44 pc of all credit card purchases, hold about $7.7 Tn in assets, or half of the entire banking system, originate & service roughly 3/5 home mortgages.
The big banks have captured the state. The FEd is after all by of and for the big banks only, some may say.
"Under a proper accounting framework, most advanced economies would be fiscally insolvent..." Daniel Hoffman, Zurich Financial Services
Yawn.
So there will be no proper accounting framework then. And the oxbridge/yalevard brigade will call whatever suits the powers that be the 'propah' accounting framework only. Common sense and sensibility be damned. Wanna bet?
IOW, the beatings will continue till morale improves.
Chinese banks have lent US$1.7 trillion to local state entities that have use inflated land & real estate values as collateral.

SocGen crafts strategy for China hard-landing http://bit.ly/eazN6T
Yawn. There will be no hard-landing till xinhua says there's one on in the middle kingdom.
the undisclosed cost of age-related spending in the UK is roughly 3.5 times the size of the UK economy – or around £5 trillion.
Huh? I won't claim to understand what exactly is going on here but seems to me that demand in the economy - defined as both willingness + ability to pay - will shrink by some 5 trillion whatever over decades as the current set of UQ boomers transition to below the ground. The ability part is important because many of these folks have little in actual savings whereas (because?) state entitlements to their retirement, healthcare and care are, like, humongous. Doesn't say much except that the future looks decidedly less rosy than Osborne would like. Perhaps.
Demand for food is expected to leap 50pc by 2030, by 30pc for water, and by 40pc for energy. Global Risks Report, WEF 2011.
Chalo, aaj ke liye itna bas.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Hari Seldon »

Uh-oh.

Not that this was unexpected at all, but still, uh-oh.

Irish government falls and calls 11 March poll
The Irish Government collapsed yesterday, with multiple ministerial resignations propelling Prime Minister Brian Cowen into setting 11 March as the date for a general election. His Fianna Fail party, which dominates the government, is widely expected to be largely wiped out in the contest, since under the Cowen leadership it has slumped to unprecedented depths in opinion polls.
OK, why isn't this OT here? Coz there's a real chance the Ides of March may throw up a gubmint that may talk overt default only. Or a euro exit, perhaps. Admittedly these things while possible are not likely. Time will tell. Wait n watch.

Okie, sri Mish has already articulated implications brilliantly only:
The two opposition parties expected to win the March 11 election and form the next coalition government, Fine Gael and Labour, have pledged to reopen negotiations with the EU and IMF.

I offer the following suggestions on how to negotiate.

The correct procedure is to announce intent to default with a statement something like "The Irish government refuses to bailout UK, German, French, and US banks too stupid to realize that Ireland was in the midst of a gigantic property bubble."

Now doubt EU, ECB, and IMF will offer to cut interest rates to 2% or some such number, perhaps even 0%.

The correct response to that sort of nonsense should be "This is not be a question of interest rates. This is a question regarding principal and principles. In regards to the latter, Irish taxpayers cannot and will not make whole foreign investors whole for their piss poor decisions. In regards to the former, and as a gesture of goodwill, we are prepared to offer 2 cents on the dollar for all debts owed."

That should set an appropriate tone for the "negotiations". It will also send bondholders a very badly needed message.
Bravo. Don't hold your breath on that happening though....
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by vina »

cheena's higher savings rate per se isn't the problem
Well, it is if you are a Mango Cheeni, who needs to save for retirement or shocks in life like falling sick. Evidently, the Chinese banks pay 2.75% to depositors in Banks, and the deposit rates are much lower than inflation, so effectively, Chinese depostors are losing money to inflation (which btw is understated in China, reality is , it is much higher).

The avenues to investment are very limited and the only outlets seem to be stocks and real estate and hence the massive unsustainable bubbles..

Chinese surplus and savings are directly the result of the loot of the savings of the ordinary Chinese people.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Hari Seldon »

vina saar,
I did mention that although in a paragraph length sentence, so quite easy to miss, I guess.
However, in cheena, IMVHO, the main problem is the CPC/sarkar arrogating the right to invest/spend the people's hard earned monies by denying them dividends, pathetically low interests on deposits coupled with stout denial of alternate cash parking avenues, rampant inflation in no small measure due to the requisite sterlization of an excessively massive forex horde eating away at whatever the mango cheeni does manage to save and last but not least rampant mismanagement of hoarded assets, obscenely rampant capital misallocation in white elephant local govt realty and hi-tech projects (high speed rail, for example) - all of which have little or no potential to give economic return on the trillions churned into them so far. Only.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Hari Seldon »

Hah, almost missed seeing this - story of the month, if ya ask me....from NYT

Path Is Sought for States to Escape Debt Burdens
Policy makers are working behind the scenes to come up with a way to let states declare bankruptcy and get out from under crushing debts, including the pensions they have promised to retired public workers.

Unlike cities, the states are barred from seeking protection in federal bankruptcy court. Any effort to change that status would have to clear high constitutional hurdles because the states are considered sovereign.

But proponents say some states are so burdened that the only feasible way out may be bankruptcy, giving Illinois, for example, the opportunity to do what General Motors did with the federal government’s aid.

Beyond their short-term budget gaps, some states have deep structural problems, like insolvent pension funds, that are diverting money from essential public services like education and health care. Some members of Congress fear that it is just a matter of time before a state seeks a bailout, say bankruptcy lawyers who have been consulted by Congressional aides.

Bankruptcy could permit a state to alter its contractual promises to retirees, which are often protected by state constitutions, and it could provide an alternative to a no-strings bailout. Along with retirees, however, investors in a state’s bonds could suffer, possibly ending up at the back of the line as unsecured creditors.

“All of a sudden, there’s a whole new risk factor,” said Paul S. Maco, a partner at the firm Vinson & Elkins who was head of the Securities and Exchange Commission’s Office of Municipal Securities during the Clinton administration.

For now, the fear of destabilizing the municipal bond market with the words “state bankruptcy” has proponents in Congress going about their work on tiptoe. No draft bill is in circulation yet, and no member of Congress has come forward as a sponsor, although Senator John Cornyn, a Texas Republican, asked the Federal Reserve chairman, Ben S. Bernanke, about the possiblity in a hearing this month.

House Republicans, and Senators from both parties, have taken an interest in the issue, with nudging from bankruptcy lawyers and a former House speaker, Newt Gingrich, who could be a Republican presidential candidate. It would be difficult to get a bill through Congress, not only because of the constitutional questions and the complexities of bankruptcy law, but also because of fears that even talk of such a law could make the states’ problems worse.

Lawmakers might decide to stop short of a full-blown bankruptcy proposal and establish instead some sort of oversight panel for distressed states, akin to the Municipal Assistance Corporation, which helped New York City during its fiscal crisis of 1975.

Still, discussions about something as far-reaching as bankruptcy could give governors and others more leverage in bargaining with unionized public workers...
Hmmm. So the khanian political class seems to have agreed upon which set of people to throw under the bus, seems like, eh?

It'll be retirees and wannabe retirees on public pensions. They're all mightily skrewed only. It's over for them. They didn't save when they were earning coz they were relying on a state funded retirement. They can't sell their shiniest 'assets' - aka houses coz the housing mkt is like, dead - talk shadow inventory, real inventory, collapse in housing starts, collapsing marginal prices in neighborhood after neighborhood etc etc.

And now, the nanny state they were counting on will wash its hands off them. Oirostan if anything has an even bigger and broke-r nanny state. Its fleet of public pensioners and dependents on state funded retirements is much larger as a % of opon (no figures here, my guess only) and hence they also constitute a much more formidable political force than in the states. Would be interesting to watch this tussle evolve.

Overall, may folks are going to get shafted. How they react, how they organize and mobilize politically remains to be seen. Expect the establishment to close ranks to use paid media to demonize and marginalize their POV bigtime.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Singha »

pvt sector workers (non union) who are anyway pissed off with the pensioned class will be used as shock troops to enforce this change. the monies saved will be used for govt debts.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Hari Seldon »

The lawd knows moi is no fan of Dubai.

Still, i did get intrigued tosee Johann Hari and his attack-pieces on the shady Dubai labor traffiking scam. Since then, UKstan thru its media mouthpieces it seems has been snapping at Doobai's heels only.

Here are 2 pieces from the telegraf:

Dubai may have to knock down buildings constructed during boom
Dubai built so much property during its boom years that it may have to start knocking some of it down again, a new report has warned.
What?? 'may' have to? demolish ready, good, solid buildings? Whatever for? Since when did jairam become their envt mantri, eh?

I've seen property white elephants in the khanate that local gubmints were overhappy to sell to anyone for $1 with the condition that the buildings be maintained and not demolished. Anyway, in this UQ-doobai spat, apna kya jata hai....

Here's one more:
The World is sinking: Dubai islands 'falling into the sea
The islands were intended as the ultimate luxury possession, even for Dubai
yawn.
But the World, the ambitiously-constructed archipelago of islands shaped like the countries of the globe, is sinking back into the sea, according to evidence cited before a property tribunal.

The islands were intended to be developed with tailor-made hotel complexes and luxury villas, and sold to millionaires. They are off the coast of Dubai and accessible by yacht or motor boat.

Now their sands are eroding and the navigational channels between them are silting up, the British lawyer for a company bringing a case against the state-run developer, Nakheel, has told judges.

"The islands are gradually falling back into the sea," Richard Wilmot-Smith QC, for Penguin Marine, said. The evidence showed "erosion and deterioration of The World islands", he added.
Reminds me of what the wall st thugs have done - created securitized asset islands that have totally sunk into the sea only.
ramana
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by ramana »

Remember in the 80s the unions were demolished and with auto industry(GM) re-organisation they were decimated! its now turn of public sector employees. However their work attitudes were festered by the political goal of keeping the commies at bay.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Neshant »

pvt sector workers (non union) who are anyway pissed off with the pensioned class will be used as shock troops to enforce this change. the monies saved will be used for govt debts.
Don't count on it. Private sector workers are not organized like public sector unions. Taxes will be raised on the working class in the private sector if need be to pay for these lavish pensions and benefits. Already the disparity is vast with people in the private sector with NO pension having to make whole stock market pension plan losses of the public sector.

Banking crooks were smart to jump to the front of the trough to load up on handouts and offload their losses onto suckers namely taxpayers. I'm still in awe as to how they managed to get what they wanted despite how blatant their theft was.

Image
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Hari Seldon »

Purfidious albion is all set to repay its suckseccor+benefactor unkil khan by aiding in the masking of cheeni purchase and subsequent selloff of USTs only. Read it all on WSJ:

China May Be Masking Its Purchase of U.S. Securities
For eight years after the United States resumed running large budget deficits in 2002, China was the largest lender, buying a fifth of the new Treasury securities sold during that span — an expenditure of more than $900 billion. During 2006, China financed more than half the American deficit. When the financial crisis struck hardest, China spent more than $100 billion on Treasuries over the two-month period of September and October 2008.

But over the last year, China has been a net seller of Treasury securities, according to figures released this week by the American government. If that is true, it would be extraordinary, considering the size of the bilateral trade deficit, and there has been speculation that China has been purchasing Treasuries through accounts in other countries.
...
It is not easy to see how the Chinese government managed to keep its currency from rising more rapidly against the dollar if it did not continue buying Treasuries in 2010, and there has been speculation that it shifted purchases to accounts managed by British money managers.

If so, such purchases would show up as British purchases. As it turns out, Britain is estimated to have been the largest purchaser of Treasuries over the 12-month period, adding $356 billion to its holdings. That made it by far the largest buyer, followed by Japan. The only other major seller during the period was Russia, according to the government estimates.

If China has been buying through money managers, it may be easier at some point for it to begin selling Treasuries through the British channel without others understanding where the selling pressure is coming from.
Interesting moves afoot.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by shyam »

Ron Paul and/vs Ralph Nader: Extreme ends of political spectrum but agree on several things. More like -infinity == +infinity.

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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Neshant »

Hari Seldon
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Hari Seldon »

Aargh, one wonders if this is the team that aspires to win the world cup...but I digress....

Here's a story which I'd like to label "balls of steel". Read on....the tiny mammals shall inherit the earth after the giant dinos have perished, seems like....

When power is genuinely with the people, things happen.
Iceland’s special prosecutor into the banking crisis has confirmed that raids have taken place today and that arrests have been made. The Central Bank of Iceland is among the institutions under investigation.
Nuff said. Read it all. The mass is the elite in Iceland. There's no getting away with daylight robbery the sort that happens in highbrow countries - like cool britoonia for example, of uncle khan for another.

Bravo icelandics, you truly blaze a path for the suffering. tamasoma jyotirgamaya.

Here's Denninger in his polemical style:
If you remember, just about one year ago Iceland refused to bail out IceSave. There were threat of doom and gloom made by the banking cartel. But the people stood firm, and made clear that they weren't going to stand for it - and were willing to be more than a bit forceful in their refusal.

The government folded to the people and told the Banksters to shove it.

It was the right decision.

And now, perhaps, the Banksters responsible might wind up in prison.

That too would be the right decision.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Neshant »

Its too late, the Icelandic bankers have already ran off to the UK at the outset of the crisis with their loot.

Interestingly the UK demands Iceland repay its debts while it gives these crooked bankers sanctuary.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Neshant »

I've yet to discover what useful purpose banking & financing has in the economy. Its without doubt a very parasitical system.

These guys need to get real jobs producing something of value to society.

------

Federal Reserve moves all losses onto taxpayer's back

The change essentially allows the Fed to denote losses by the various regional reserve banks that make up the Fed system as a liability to the Treasury rather than a hit to its capital. It would then simply direct future profits from Fed operations toward that liability.

"Could the Fed go broke? The answer to this question was 'Yes,' but is now 'No,'" said Raymond Stone, managing director at Stone & McCarthy in Princeton, New Jersey. "An accounting methodology change at the central bank will allow the Fed to incur losses, even substantial losses, without eroding its capital."

"Any future losses the Fed may incur will now show up as a negative liability as opposed to a reduction in Fed capital, thereby making a negative capital situation technically impossible," said Brian Smedley, a rates strategist at Bank of America-Merrill Lynch and a former New York Fed staffer.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/41198789
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Hari Seldon »

Appeasement is the proper policy towards Confucian China

Who else but the provocateur AEP at it again in the telegraf.... this time comparing the rise of Germany since 1900 and that of PRC since 2000..... pointing fingers towards why conflict may become necessary, nay inevitable....AND why for now, anglo-saxonia is better off appeasing the confucian giant..... quirky but interesting, IMHO.
We all learned at school how the status quo powers mismanaged the spectacular rise of Germany before World War I, a strategic revolution so like the rise of China today.

And we all learned how the Kaiser overplayed his hand. That much was obvious.

Yet it is difficult to pin-point exactly when the normal pattern of great power jostling began to metamorphose into something more dangerous, leading to two rival, entrenched, and heavily armed alliance structures unable or unwilling to avert the drift towards conflict. The Long Peace died by a thousand cuts, a snub here, a Dreadnought there, the race for oil.
OK. So?
"The only condition which could lead to improvement of German-English relations would be if we bridled our economic development, and this is not possible," said Deutsche Bank chief Karl Helfferich as early as 1897. German steel output jumped tenfold from 1880 to 1900, leaping past British production. Sound familiar?

Is China now where Germany was in 1900? Possibly. There are certainly hints of menace from some quarters in Beijing. Defence minister Liang Guanglie said over New Year that China’s armed forces are “pushing forward preparations for military conflict in every strategic direction”.

Professor Huang Jing from Singapore’s Lee Kwan Yew School and a former adviser to China’s Army, said Beijing is losing its grip on the colonels.

“The young officers are taking control of strategy and it is like young officers in Japan in the 1930s. This is very dangerous. They are on a collision course with a US-dominated system,” he said.
OK, the last bit is usual AEP alarmism, agendeering and propagandu. Take with salt. But still, here's the underlying message:
The political reality is that China’s export of manufacturing over-capacity is hollowing out the US industrial core, and a plethora of tricks to stop Western firms competing in the Chinese market rubs salt in the wound. It is preventing full recovery in the US, where half the population is falling out of the bottom of the Affluent Society. Some 43.2m people are now on food stamps. The US labour force participation rate has fallen to 64.3pc, worse than a year ago. Only the richer half is recovering.

The roots of this imbalance lie in the structure of globalisation and East-West capital flows – and no doubt the deficiencies of US school education – but China plays a central role, and this will not tolerated for much longer if Beijing is also perceived to be a strategic enemy. China’s economic and military goals are in conflict. One defeats the other.
Oh, read it all. Ensoi.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by shyam »

Hypothetical story: The Day After The Dollar Crashes - A Survival Guide for the Rise of the New World Order

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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Ameet »

Official: Obama to call for 5-year spending freeze

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41255084/ns ... ite_house/
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Hari Seldon »

Ameet wrote:Official: Obama to call for 5-year spending freeze

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41255084/ns ... ite_house/
Cute.

And here's one ostensible reason why. IMF chides US for fiscal folly.

It seems Projected deficit at 10.75pc of GDP. The US is going to put stress on it's credit card.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Hari Seldon »

Meanwhile, ways and means to cut spending are already coming out of the trial balloon to the courtroom trial balloon stage, at different levels of govt.
Calif. high court sides with Richmond on layoffs

Basically, the Hon. court is saying govts can fire employees for financial reasons without sweating it too much. This is a big deal, mark my words. Not that it wouldn't have happened eventually, but this quietly and quickly, who knew?
Cities and counties don't have to consult with unions before deciding to lay off workers to save money, the state Supreme Court ruled Monday.

The court unanimously upheld Richmond's decision to eliminate 18 of its 90 firefighting jobs in 2003, when the city said it faced potential bankruptcy.

The International Association of Fire Fighters argued that the city could have avoided layoffs by cutting costs in other areas, and filed a complaint with the state Public Employment Relations Board.

The board said decisions to cut the workforce for financial reasons are not subject to collective bargaining, and the court agreed.

Under California law, "a local public entity that is faced with a decline in revenues or other financial adversity may unilaterally decide to lay off some of its employees," Justice Joyce Kennard said in the ruling, which upheld lower-court decisions.
Expect trickles to turn into floods only. Contagion, you ain't seen nothing.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Hari Seldon »

Uh-oh. Things are moving elsewhere too in distinctly uncomfy directions...
Food Price Control Possible in Russia
The government may impose a maximum price level for some foods, such as potatoes, as it faces elevating inflationary pressure, Deputy Economic Minister Andrei Klepach said Monday.

Klepach said, however, that the government has not discussed any proposals yet. “I just do not exclude this, and it is envisaged by legislation that we can use this kind of means,” Klepach said. Parliamentary elections are due in December, and voters cite high prices as a top concern in opinion polls.
And in China last Nov.:
China Announced Price Controls to Tackle Food Inflation
China will unveil food price controls and crack down on speculation in agricultural commodities to contain inflationary pressure that its central bank governor highlighted as a risk on Tuesday.

With consumer prices rising at their fastest pace in more than two years, the National Development and Reform Commission, the country's top planning agency, is preparing a "one-two punch" of actions to rein in food costs, official media reported.

Such direct intervention would mark an escalation of the government's efforts to tame inflation and underline its worries over the rapid run-up in food prices.

Possible steps include price controls, subsidies for shoppers, a crackdown on hoarding and price gouging as well as a system whereby mayors are made responsible for a basket of food items, the China Securities Journal reported.

Those found speculating on corn or cotton will also be punished severely, it added.
IN the turd world in general:
Emerging Nations Tackle Food Costs
Fast-growing emerging nations are taking increasingly aggressive actions to beat back rising food prices as they grow more worried of threats to stability if prices don't start to retreat.

Developing-market governments have unveiled a laundry list of measures—including price caps, export bans and rules to counter commodity speculation—to keep food costs from disrupting their economies as price spikes that some had hoped were temporary have stretched into the new year.

In the latest indication of concern, Indonesia said Thursday it will remove import tariffs on more than 50 items including wheat, soybeans, fertilizer and animal feed in an effort to slow the rise in food prices. Indonesia is also planning to raise taxes on palm-oil exports to 25% from 20% next month, according to a government official familiar with the matter.

Bad weather, more-affluent populations and underinvestment in agriculture have pushed up prices of everything from wheat, rice and onions in India, chilies in Indonesia and water spinach in China. Some point to low interest rates in the U.S., Japan and Europe, as investors use cheap financing to invest in globally traded commodities such as rice, sugar, cotton and oil, driving their prices higher. Soy bean prices in the past six months have risen 46% to more than $14 a bushel at the Chicago Board of Trade. Sugar, while lower than in November, is still up 34% over six months ago to around 31 cents a pound in Intercontinental Exchange trading.

In response to the price pressures, India earlier this month extended bans on exporting lentils and cooking oil. It also struck a deal with archrival Pakistan to import 1,000 tons of onions, a key cooking ingredient whose price has skyrocketed after floods.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by svinayak »

Suraj
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Suraj »

Looks like the work of a hyperinflation alarmist. His example is that of Yugoslavia during the civil war and breakup in the 90s. He conveniently avoids mentioning the name of the country and the civil war, only talking about the monetary changes. Not very intellectually honest.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by abhischekcc »

If this food price inflation reached any higher or stays high for an uncomfortable period of time, it risks destroying the global trade regime that has been created after decades of hard negotiation.
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