J & K news and discussion

[somnath]

The undignified part is that you are comparing

BJP's invite to Vastanvi (who is opposing the "social trough" in their ideology) to attend Republic Day celebration

WITH

INC's history of making political alliances with that "social trough".

Don't you see the fallacy?

I dont want to distract the discussion on J&K, but BJP was born out of the womb of an organisation that can hardly be called a "social crest" of progressivism ..And what would you say to ABV's promise to hire "1 crore" madrassa teachers in the 2004 election campaign? An atempt to embrace the social crest?

[somnath]

I thought you will ask me to "read more", "study more" and "go to the library". This is pretty good too. Great job! Another addition to your long list of "distinguished arguments".

Well, usually self exploration is the best way.In case you are SO oblivious..

http://indiabudget.nic.in/es2009-10/esmain.htm

Has all the economic data points...

[Sidhant]

People here are skirting the simple questions and instead keep on doing BJP bashing. Why dont the RG and OA lovers answer the questions of why was the flag hoisting stopped at lal chowk. What chanakiyan reason does GOI and J&K govt has to not follow the years old tradition. Why cant a mango man go and raise the national flag at a public place. Why are sentiments of separatists more important then sentiments of other Indians who are not against the very idea of India.

They might have done very bad things in past but the question is in this particular case why are they being considered wrong. What is the logic behind the rhetoric that this was being done to raise communal tensions. How would the communal tensions have flared up by this flag hoisting yatra or is it just because BJP was doing something communal tensions would have flared up.

[abhishek_sharma]

I thought you will ask me to "read more", "study more" and "go to the library". This is pretty good too. Great job! Another addition to your long list of "distinguished arguments".

Well, usually self exploration is the best way.In case you are SO oblivious..

http://indiabudget.nic.in/es2009-10/esmain.htm

Has all the economic data points...

How is it relevant for SLIME/DIE?

[sum]

Somnath-sir, please do answer this simple Q:

Am still curious as to why is it that even the 1-2 odd persons who made it to Lal Chowk were not allowed to even display the flag? Will even a display of the flag cause the KMs to go beserk ( as per GoI logic)? Even MM Joshi was allowed that in 92 in worse conditions.

The GoI/ OA could have sent a meassage across by allowing the single person to hoist the flag for 2 mins and then get back but even that was not allowed( the guys were thrashed) and the visuals showing the flag being snatched from him as if it were a Paki flag!!!

Please don't bring in BJP, fascist, loony etc...

Couldn't the police folks there have taken the flag and put it up the tower themselves if they didn't want to give credit to BJP? Should the flag have been hurriedly bundled into a bag and thrown into a jeep?

[ramana]

Somnath, You were too young then, but this very same Hindu and its cohort used to have regular op-eds running down the Swatantra Party as a hangout for ex-Rajahs and CIA agents. The 1971 victory swept them away. They later joined the Janata Party which also suffered the same fate of hate press.

One can't have a democracy without an opposition party. There is something odd in Indian press that they become lap dogs of the party in power.

And N Ram and his ilk had running feud with CR!

[skumar]

I have always maintained that the BJP is a one trick pony (Rath and Riots routine) and more bizzare, is that even the rhetoric keeps repeating endlessly in a loop like a stuck LP record.

Consider that stuff by Sushma Swaraj. Jail for people trying to hoist the "dhwaj" and Security for people burning the tri color. Where did we hear it earlier ?.

It was during the Charaar-e-Sharif (I think) stand off during the Narasimha Rao govt. The BJP and Advani flush from the inferno of the Ayodhya Rath Yatra piped up .

"Kar Sevak ke liye goli , aur Atankvadi ke like Biryani!" Just look back to see how far that line took the BJP electorally or otherwise.

You can say that about every slogan devised by every party - not too difficult to understand the reasons, they have to appeal to the GCD of the masses.

People are not as dumb as the BJP thinks they are. Rao learnt from the Golden Temple action where the army was sent in (which had terrible and serious long term consequences, the effects and wounds took around 25 years to heal and many would argue can never heal for those who suffered, esp the lack of justice for the Sikh victims of the 1984 riots) and handled a similar situation well and tactfully. No Kashmiri Muslim blames the GOI for that incident! It is not even a memory now. It was a far better thing to do than send the army in and have Golden Temple like consequences. What does the BJP do ? Act responsibly ?. No sir, just like now, we got wild rhetoric back then too.

And, do you think Rao would have handled the current situation like OA supported by RG? He would have taken the winds out of the BJP sails. Pity, the dynasty is back.

[somnath]

Couldn't the police folks there have taken the flag and put it up the tower themselves if they didn't want to give credit to BJP? Should the flag have been hurriedly bundled into a bag and thrown into a jeep?

Agre, there was an opportnity for doing a lot more on creative adminstrative actions...Oman Abd is an ass, doesnt deserve to be there...(Mind you though that even during MMJ's time, the flag had to be taken down hurreidly and "bundled away" immediately after!)..But Omar A's incompetence does not obviate the rationale of pure opportunism of BJP's yatra...Thats all..

[SwamyG]

About Hindu editorial - I guess we should modify RM's favourite phrase - "All wise men think alike", to include "All fools think that they think alike".

Makes me view the member in a different light now

[Arjun]

I have always maintained that the BJP is a one trick pony (Rath and Riots routine) and more bizzare, is that even the rhetoric keeps repeating endlessly in a loop like a stuck LP record.

Thanks for the opinion Vina. There are many who think that the INC shills and demogogues with their standard, tired and incorrect 'BJP and its hate baggage' line that keeps repeating endlessly in a loop, are more qualified to be called 'one-trick' ponies. However to each his own.

[RamaY]

I dont want to distract the discussion on J&K, but BJP was born out of the womb of an organisation that can hardly be called a "social crest" of progressivism ..And what would you say to ABV's promise to hire "1 crore" madrassa teachers in the 2004 election campaign? An atempt to embrace the social crest?

We all were OT the moment we saw BJP's Yatra as a political Yatra given the sad reality of J&K.

So you are saying BJP should take blame for it's parent organization, even if one agrees with your characterization of RSS (by the way I don't agree with you about RSS)?

If that is the case who can moral high ground given entire Indian subcontinents Hindu roots at one point or another?

[arjunm]

Please people listen Anupm Kher, a Kahsmiri Pandit by himself who born and brought up in Kashmir, son of the soil, and grew up with the turn of the vents and thrown out, listen to him unlike other's who fed by the worthless DDMs and Toilet etc.....


http://indiatoday.intoday.in/site/Video ... /42/Videos
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/site/Video ... /42/Videos
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/site/Video ... /42/Videos
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/site/Video ... /42/Videos

[ramana]

sum, The other question is why were the six BJP party members thrashed and then arrested? Why was it felt the need to do that? The separatists didnt get the same thrashing. They just got arrested.

I'll tell you why. The separatists had Malik, Lone among 14 others. an police would be charged with brutality if they thrashed any body. Heck in Sopian 'rape' they were implicated by J&K woman doctor who faked evidence.

The BJP party members didn't have any high profile leaders with them to avoid the police brutality. The original plan was to have BJP leaders to avoid this among other things.

[somnath]

Somnath, You were too young then, but this very same Hindu and its cohort used to have regular op-eds running down the Swatantra Party as a hangout for ex-Rajahs and CIA agents. The 1971 victory swept them away. They later joined the Janata Party which also suffered the same fate of hate press.

One can't have a democracy without an opposition party. There is something odd in Indian press that they become lap dogs of the party in power.

And N Ram and his ilk had running feud with CR!

Ramanaji, wasnt born!
Anyways, I wont be surprised if The Hindu had a running feud with Rajaji - diametrically opposite worldviews...On the other hand, folks here should read about Rajaji's interactions with Sheikh Abdullah, and his general views on the issue..(OT, but Jaswant Singh has said that his next book is on Rajaji, expect more people to rread!)..Rajaji's (and "I am a CIA agent" Pilloo Modi's) right wing ideology was steeped in a sort of liberal cosmopolitanism that would inevitably make them eligible for such honourable descriptions as "DIE/RAPE"!

I dont think all newspapers are"lapdogs", in fact it is the left liberal intellentsia that calls it that! The Indian Express is staunchly right wing in its economics and foreign policy, and staunchly secular in its politics...The Hindu on the other hand, is quite "cetrist" in its economics, while being left wing in its politics...Frontline on the other hand is only a shade to the right of EPW! On certain issues, if people have similar views - maybe because THAT is the national consensus?

[Arjun]

But Omar A's incompetence does not obviate the rationale of pure opportunism of BJP's yatra...Thats all..

Since when did opportunism around a non-sectarian symbol, & in a democratic and non-violent fashion, become a no-no? The Dandi march was pure political opportunism and symbolism as well...!

This will be argued in courts anyway - so might as well hold on to the horses and engage in discussion when the court opines.

[somnath]

So you are saying BJP should take blame for it's parent organization, even if one agrees with your characterization of RSS (by the way I don't agree with you about RSS)?

If that is the case who can moral high ground given entire Indian subcontinents Hindu roots at one point or another?

RamaYji, RSS is not JUST the parent organisation - it controls the party (or at least tried to, often with success)!

And no, I dont equate RSS with hinduism..No party has any "moral high ground" - which is precisely the point..

[Sidhant]

Sidhantji, the issue is not of comparing ABV and Nehru, MMs etc.the simple issue is that successive governments have had a reasonably consistent way to handling the Kashmir problem...and defined bottomlines...And 82% isnt out of thin air - 18%is the share of votes nationally that BJP got in the last elections..

Somnath ji, first of all the voting turnout of India in last elections was 59.7% Wiki. So the claim of 82% population does not comes into picture.

Now coming to the the other part. I read your earlier posts and I fully understand that your heart is at right place , so indulging my self in a debate where our views are different but goal is same. Flag hoisting at traditional places was also part of that consistent policy which successive governments maintained until 2010, what caused this change in tradition. Part of policy was to keep a political consensus on track two diplomacy over J&K and keep it transparent which I don't feel is currently happening. The fiascoes like S-e-S also do not put much confidence in the govt handling of J&K. The kid glove handling of separatists would have made sense if it would had been a completely indigenous struggle, but as the recent stone pelting has shown that the sentiments of rage are not exactly the sentiments of KMs but sentiments funded and orchestrated by foreign powers. Thus accommodating these sentiments constitutes accommodating the sentiments of foreign powers hostile to India. I don't see any chanakiyan move in keeping those foreign power funded sentiments and such sentimental people in good humor. Insurgencies die their natural death I agree but the precondition is that there should not be external fuel for it to keep it burning. This is not the case with Kashmir, there is way too much foreign fuel to keep it burning. We can allow it to die its natural death only after the external fuel supply has been cut off. Given the circumstances we need to cut that foreign fuel and also take out the combustible matter (separatists). Only fools play with fire, the wise ones are the fire fighters.

[ramana]

Ind Express is as much a toady of party in power as Hindu. All labels dont apply to Indian press. Except lifafa. During emergency IE was at forefront of opposing Mrs G but it was not due to principles but due to his I T troubles.

[Prem]

In this battle of Jhanda, India lost and "ideology" won.
All those who dont want Tiranga in Lal Chowk, please answer if it is ok for MMS /UPA etc to bargain the Valley to serve Massa/ Poak and other interests and establish real Secularism in India and destory Hindu terorrism for good ?

[Murugan]

Journos have lost their character.

once moi had to entertain 40 odd journos for two days so that they dont report anything undesired pertaining to my organization. they were fed what they asked for, we provided the best liquor and given a very costly watch as a gift before they were taken to the venue and occassion for which they had to publish news. i had to stay with them. they were asking for more and favours. the day was mahavir jayanti and was a dry day. they influenced the hotel walas to go against the law and provide them with liquors. later hotel wala made arrangements for in-camera drinking binge party. includes journos from Times of Ijlamabad and Unindian Express. i lost all the respect for journos. this was in 1994.

rag tag respect washed away when karan thapar talked about "sudden removal of modi", the burkha kaand, rajdeep's apologetic ways of reporting and sanghvi's mollycoddling. very sad.

the org from which they got these treatment is no more

[somnath]

Somnath ji, first of all the voting turnout of India in last elections was 59.7% Wiki. So the claim of 82% population does not comes into picture.

Sir, of course the vote share can only be based on those who vote, tautological, no? About relative shares..Here..

http://www.travelindia-guide.com/electi ... -share.php

BJP had 19% share..

No insurgency in history has been sustained "only" by external support. There has to be a substantial internal support for it to sustain itself..In Kashmir there is...And there will be in the foreseeable future a large group of sullen KMs...Our strategy throughout has been to make the sullen-ness less "mortal"..So we saturate the area with troops and fence the border to eliminate the radicals, hold elections to tone down the moderates, and gradually lead the issue to irrelevance..The more irrelevant it gets, less likely for it to get extrnal support (non-Paki)..An aggressive yatra like this actually GIVES more fuel to the insurgency, in terms of soundbytes, support and international glare...Thats all...

Ind Express is as much a toady of party in power as Hindu.

Ramanaji, maybe, maybe not..But IE keeps at it, doesnt it - Bofors, Dhirubhai Ambani, Petrol pump scam - they have been pretty "neutral" in their pet crusades..

[sum]

(Mind you though that even during MMJ's time, the flag had to be taken down hurreidly and "bundled away" immediately after!).

That was the point. The flag was atleast allowed to be hoisted amidst the bullets since the GoI agreed with the sentiment.
Cant say the same about the present dispensation going by the viciousness shown by the administration to put down the yatra and ensure that the BJP and the seperatists were shown to be == by equating the demand for a national flag hoisting at Clock tower with a Paki flag hoisting by Malik and co.

To me, it just showed that GoI agrees that Srinagar is disputed and neither Paki or Indian flags can be allowed to be raised publicly ( official "sanitised" function at stadium and CRPF bunker in lal Chowk dont count as public functions)
Wonder how the US and other nations read this act of GoI as ( since you bring in the " Doosre nation kya kehenge" arguement so frequently).
really sad day..

[Arjun]

Rajaji's (and "I am a CIA agent" Pilloo Modi's) right wing ideology was steeped in a sort of liberal cosmopolitanism that would inevitably make them eligible for such honourable descriptions as "DIE/RAPE"!

Too much of an assumption....Many liberal cosmopolitans, as well as those who are staunchly against political dynasties and feudalism, are anti-INC today. I certainly count myself in that description - and Rajaji would most likely have as well.

[CRamS]

Guys:

Can the forum be spared of the pseudo secular garbage from the likes vina and somnath? Its tiring that they cannot see past their jaundiced anti-BJP views. There is also a certian amount of cowardice in this flagellation of fellow Indians by the holier-than-though types like we are seeing here; almost wanting to impress India's enemies through their maacho, obnoxious, self-righteous, strident opposition to what is essentially a nationalist statement by the BJP.

The flag hoisting was a question of asserting India's soverignty over the valley. Period. On issues of foreign policy, like dems and reps in US, all parties in India must unite, even if a particular party may derive mileage at a given point in time. In taking on the Kashmiri Muslim sepratist dogs and their followers, every party in India must be united. Nothing can be a more secular manifestation than such a spectacle.

If its was purely on the issue of secularim that BJP is taken to task, then all the parties: INC, NC etc should have joined BJP and hoisted the flag. That way, the nationalist sentiment would have been on display, and any communal element, which is being alleged is the motive behind BJP's decision, would have dissipated.

[Murugan]

To be secular is to remain:

Pro separatists
Pro Isloo Fundamentalist
Pro conversion
Pro Maoist
Anti RSS
Anti BJP
Anti National
Anti Modi
Anti Pro-modi (vastanvi, vishwanath anand etc are untouchable for secular parties)
Practice Untouchability towards pro right wing

India has really become real secular. Jai ho!

[Sanku]

Liberal cosmopolitans as myself don't need certificates from dynastic boot licking traitors who put the dynasty over and above country, its integration, the concept of India, democracy and the flag.

[abhishek_sharma]

Liberal cosmopolitans as myself don't need certificates from dynastic boot licking traitors who put the dynasty over and above country, its integration, the concept of India, democracy and the flag.

No saar. You should know that 'Majority of Indians would be "SLIME/DIE or RANDI"'. Trust me.

[Arjun]

Liberal cosmopolitans as myself don't need certificates from dynastic boot licking traitors who put the dynasty over and above country, its integration, the concept of India, democracy and the flag.

+10.

I seriously see the need for a thread to iron out what 'liberal cosmopolitanism' really means - so as to prevent this term from being hijacked by opportunist shills who have no idea what liberalism is all about.

[Prem]

Liberal cosmopolitans as myself don't need certificates from dynastic boot licking traitors who put the dynasty over and above country, its integration, the concept of India, democracy and the flag.

No saar. You should know that 'Majority of Indians would be "SLIME/DIE or RANDI"'. Trust me.

Onlee few Slimes and Randis but put in power circle as face of India in 47 itself. The difference, Ambedkar and Saradar Patel made comparing to Chacha's so many goof ups still sc..ing india. Yet Chacha's agenda reign supreme at the cost of culture, country and its coffers. Freedom from the grip of Chacha's children will be real independence for India otherwise nothing worthwhile positive can ever come out of Delhi Darbar.

[Sidhant]

Somnath ji, first of all the voting turnout of India in last elections was 59.7% Wiki. So the claim of 82% population does not comes into picture.

Sir, of course the vote share can only be based on those who vote, tautological, no? About relative shares..Here..

http://www.travelindia-guide.com/electi ... -share.php

BJP had 19% share..

No insurgency in history has been sustained "only" by external support. There has to be a substantial internal support for it to sustain itself..In Kashmir there is...And there will be in the foreseeable future a large group of sullen KMs...Our strategy throughout has been to make the sullen-ness less "mortal"..So we saturate the area with troops and fence the border to eliminate the radicals, hold elections to tone down the moderates, and gradually lead the issue to irrelevance..The more irrelevant it gets, less likely for it to get extrnal support (non-Paki)..An aggressive yatra like this actually GIVES more fuel to the insurgency, in terms of soundbytes, support and international glare...Thats all...

Ind Express is as much a toady of party in power as Hindu.

Somnath ji, I am not in favor of all that halla gullaa that happened, and all this halla gulla would not have happened if the Govt would not have been dead against raising the flag. The govt said they will not allow to hoist the flag at lal chowk which is wrong. The govt could have toned downed the number to minuscule levels and could have hoisted the flag. The flag have been hoisted there is in much conditions, what prompted the govt of the day to not allow the flag hoisting. I neither see a sane nor a chanakiyan justification of giving in to the sentiments of Kashmiri separatists.

[Murugan]

Onlee few Slimes and Randis but put in power circle as face of India in 47 itself. The difference, Ambedkar and Saradar Patel made comparing to Chacha's so many goof ups still sc..ing india. Yet Chacha's agenda reign supreme at the cost of culture, country and its coffers. Freedom from the grip of Chacha's children will be real independence for India otherwise nothing worthwhile positive can ever come out of Delhi Darbar.

Chacha's Children. good one.
Hope bharat mata gets rid of them soon

ps: also dont you think Fabdulla resembled chcha. Lotus G, RG and OA have some similarities, at least their faces

[vera_k]

Heck in Sopian 'rape' they were implicated by J&K woman doctor who faked evidence.

That lady doctor confessed during "questioning" by CBI. No reason to believe CBI over her.

[vina]

Only fools play with fire, the wise ones are the fire fighters.

Sorry. Among the only things that distinguished humans from our closest relatives , the Chimps was the ability to tame and use fire. Being mortally afraid of fire and running away is what only animal do and not humans.

The ones who know how to use and tame fire know when to set a blaze and when to prevent one from happening. The pyromaniacs in this case, who seem hell bent on setting Kashmir on fire were the marchers whose sought to cloak their ulterior sectarian agendas in the national flag and pretend outrage and obfuscation when no one bought their agenda or their make believe alibis for their reasons to march.

[Theo_Fidel]

If that is the case who can moral high ground given entire Indian subcontinents Hindu roots at one point or another?

We were mostly Buddhist at one point as well. And before that Animist, some groups of which still survive, well at least the maternal genes do .

Whats your point.

[Murugan]

By above explanation, Gandhiji, Tilak and Subhash can also be called pyromaniacs?

[abhishek_sharma]

The pyromaniacs in this case, who seem hell bent on setting Kashmir on fire were the marchers whose sought to cloak their ulterior sectarian agendas in the national flag and pretend outrage and obfuscation when no one bought their agenda or their make believe alibis for their reasons to march.

Many people agreed with them. Speak for yourself.

[Murugan]

If that is the case who can moral high ground given entire Indian subcontinents Hindu roots at one point or another?

We were mostly Buddhist at one point as well. And before that Animist, some groups of which still survive, well at least the maternal genes do .

Whats your point.

Buddha was born to hindu couple

[sum]

The ones who know how to use and tame fire know when to set a blaze and when to prevent one from happening. The pyromaniacs in this case, who seem hell bent on setting Kashmir on fire were the marchers whose sought to cloak their ulterior sectarian agendas in the national flag and pretend outrage and obfuscation when no one bought their agenda or their make believe alibis for their reasons to march.

I can understand ( however warped) the logic of not allowing a huge bunch to march till Srinagar.

But, what is the justification for thrashing and snatching the flag( only to throw it inside a police jeep like it was some rag) from the 4 people who finally reached Lal Chowk and tried to put up a tricolour?Would these 4 people also have caused a riot/ hurt the KM sensitivities if the tricolour would have been hoisted for 2 minutes there?

Please don't bring up " Even separatists were not allowed" since Hoisting tricolour != hoisting Paki flag on "supposed Indian territory" ( per GoI logic) . Why should the hoisting of the two flags be equated to justify both not being allowed?

[vina]

Buddha was born to hindu couple

Ok. And Jesus was Jewish Rabbi! Neither Jesus nor Buddha would have identified themselves as either "Christian" or "Buddhist" because such identities didn't exist when they were alive. So what is your point?

This is crazy and a route to Pakiland kind of politics when a sane teacher in Pakistan said that Prophet's Muhammed's parent's couldn't have been Muslim, because Islam as a religion and identity came only AFTER Mohammed, and guess what , his students yelled Blasphemy! and I am sure that the teacher is either halalled/got a Canadian Vija or is cowering in his Shalwar in some prison dreading when some loony was going to empty a clip from an AK-47 on him!

[Arjun]

Guys:

Can the forum be spared of the pseudo secular garbage from the likes vina and somnath?

Given that the PS crowd is a rapidly vanishing species on BR - I presume it is afforded official protection, to maintain ecological balance !! Not responding to those who seem to be intent on provoking maybe one strategy...