West Asia News and Discussions

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abhishek_sharma
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by abhishek_sharma »

Obama Cautions Embattled Ally Against Violence

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/29/world ... diplo.html
Still, standing by Mr. Mubarak for fear of what could come after him could lead to “resentment towards the United States that could last another three decades, like Iran,” said Martin S. Indyk, a Middle East peace negotiator in the Clinton administration. Laying out the American dilemma, Mr. Indyk said, “If we don’t back Mubarak and the regime falls, and the Muslim Brotherhood takes control of Egypt and breaks the peace treaty with Israel, then it could have dramatic negative ramifications for American interests in the Middle East.”
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by abhishek_sharma »

Protests Unsettle Jordan While Most Other Neighbors Stay Calm

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/29/world ... egion.html
abhishek_sharma
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by abhishek_sharma »

Egyptians’ Fury Has Smoldered Beneath the Surface for Decades

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/29/world ... barak.html
shyamd
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by shyamd »

Bahrain is evacuating citizens and all military officers attached to the Egyptian army. It just shows how close the GCC are working with Egypt. I'd go as far as to say the GCC relationship with the Egyptian army is just like their relations with TSPA! Remember the UAEAF plane that was asked to land in India. Investigation found that it was carrying shells made in china from Egypt.
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by Johann »

Anyone who has lived in an Arab state (outside the Gulf, which is its own special place) understands instinctively why these revolts are happening. Try imagining if the Emergency of India of the 1970s had in fact begun not long after independence and continued until today.

The thing is it doesn't matter if its Libya, or Syria, or Egypt or Jordan or Algeria, or Morocco, if they're pro-American or anti-American, republics or monarchies. Things work in more or less the same way - an authoritarian ruler and his kleptocratic family own the state, run it to their own benefit, and a well oiled machinery severely persecutes anyone who dares speak up in public.

There are only two ways to make a better life - emigrate, or ingratiate. Meanwhile every year prices get a little higher, and competition for jobs gets a little tougher, but nothing changes at the top.

There are *huge* numbers of educated young men, and increasingly women who spend all day on the internet, looking for jobs, watching and reading the news from around the world, and talking to each other through Facebook and Twitter. When there's a spark, like the self-immolations in Tunisia, it spreads like wildfire.

These are some of the first people to take to the street, but they're soon joined by people like the vegetable sellers, the taxi drivers, and in Iran last year, and Tunisia and Egypt this year- parents and grandparents who are finally letting out a lifetime of frustration with the regimes. Most of these people have never been involved in protests ever before, so its hugely cathartic to finally shout out what theyve always felt and thought.

These protests are not particularly Islamic either - theyre not chanting 'Allah hu akbar', or 'Islam is the solution', or 'Down with Pharoah' or any of the usual Islamist chants. The Muslim Brother has *not* mobilised for fear of presenting itself as a target in the crackdown that is coming. They've been at this game for a very long time - since the 1930s when they protested in the millions against the British and their friends in the Egyptian Monarchy, and the Jewish resettlement of Palestine. They understand *exactly* where things can go wrong.

The fact that these protests are being led on the streets by the long silent and apolitical educated classes, and by people who are not part of any political party machinery is I believe also one of the reasons why all of these protests are relatively peaceful - they aren't trying to seize power for themselves personally, nor are they filled with any kind of ideological hatred. They just desperately want change, and the freedom to complain about the state's failures and injustices towards them. This lack of structure withing these protest movements is the reason why there are no 'leaders' to arrest - but its also the reason why the state will survive in many cases. The people have little in the way of concrete aims or strategy beyond bringing down whatever despot who has watched over them for decades, and making a little space to be heard.
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by shyamd »

^^ The lack of structure/leaders is precisely why its actuall dangerous for the people there. The people are not fully sure what they want. Same in Tunis.

Folks, Egypt and TSPA are part of the Peninsula Shielf Force based in Hafr Al Bateen. This is staffed by members of the armed forces of the GCC and other allied nations. Can someone do some more research on this?

Found some more info:

Because of the advanced technology inherent in the military modernization programs, large numbers of expatriate military and civilian personnel have been required to service and maintain weapons systems and to train Saudi personnel in their use. Although precise data were not available, it was estimated that in the late 1980s, about 5,000 United States civilian and 500 military technicians and trainers and perhaps 5,000 British, French, and other Europeans provided this support. In addition, a considerable number of officers from Muslim countries--including Pakistanis, Jordanians, Syrians, Palestinians, and Egyptians-- were contracted on an individual basis, mostly in training and logistics assignments. As many as 11,000 to 15,000 Pakistani troops and advisers had been recruited to bring the two armored brigades to full strength, as well as to serve in engineering units and the air force. The 10,000 troops in the armored service left the country beginning in late 1987, reportedly because Pakistan was unwilling to screen the Shia element from the force at a time when conflict with Iran seemed a possibility.
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by brihaspati »

Just a gentle reminder - Iran and Iraq all changed regimes [Shah->Khomeini, pre-Baath->Saddam] through a popular uprising, with seeds of "liberal" and left/Marxists inside pockets of mobilization. The theocracy and Islamists stayed hidden and away - but joined in with sections of the army at the proper time to take power. Popular uprisings may provide the delegitimization and paralysis in the autocrat which provides the necessary cover for mullahcracy+military to take over. The liberals are sacrificed like goats and camels either way.
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by ramana »

Nightwatch 1/28/2011...

LINK
Egypt: Today was the Day of Rage and so it has been. Roughly an hour after Friday prayers, the demonstrations began in Cairo, Suez and Alexandria, then spread and continued into the night. Buildings were set alight; curfews ignored and the Army moved in. The night closed with President Mubarak's mildly concessional speech which promises to incite the protestors, more than placate them. Expect more confrontations on 29 January.

Special comment: Background. Research and analysis of more than 50 internal instability episodes since 1980, NightWatch has tracked order in what appears to be chaotic security situations. Once internal discontent metamorphoses into a breakdown of public order, the government begins searching for a set of responses that will halt the decline in its fortunes. A government will follow a three-phase cycle in applying different ideas and resources alternately to placate or crush an insurrection or to buy time to try to find "a line it can hold." That phrase refers to a set of actions over an expanse of national territory that will stabilize internal conditions.

If the government finds a set of responses that match the protestors' grievances, the downward cycle can be halted. If not, it will continue until the government falls or is changed, usually by the Army, the ultimate guardians of the state.

The cycle begins with an under reaction phase of more or less tolerant behavior. This phase almost always begins quietly with increased police presence, but no extraordinary force deployments. In most instances, the anti-government protestors are prone to misinterpret tolerance as weakness or indecision and will escalate demands and attract more protestors and usually looters.

When efforts at conciliation fail, the government has not choice but to escalate the security response. Unless the response is well-planned, swift and overwhelming, this overreaction will incite more demonstrations. At that point the government has not choice but to offer concessions so as to gain time for regrouping. The first concession is always people, rather than policies or practices.

Concessions always convey the perception that the demonstrators are winning and invariably provoke more demonstrations. In fact, concessions always start out as sops for the protestors. They do not mean that the government has fallen or that a revolution has succeeded.

Once a cycle is complete without improving the situation, the next cycles accelerate and power transfers from the government to the protestors heading towards power-sharing or bypassing power sharing and heading towards revolution.

In Tunisia, a single cycle was completed in the past three weeks. The departure of President Ben Ali on 10 January indicated the start of the concession phase, which appears to be continuing. Note the first concession of that government system was the head of state because he lost the support of the security establishment, especially the Army and its leader General Ammar.

With Ben Ali's departure, the pace of events has slowed, but it is clear that fundamental change has not occurred. The lack of cohesion, organization and leadership in the Tunis demonstrators enabled the government to stabilize the situation by dumping the president. That gesture failed to satisfy the protestors so more people have been dumped, but fundamental policies are not changed.

The concession phase is slowing blending with under-reaction and transitioning towards another crackdown. Today's efforts by the police to terminate a sit-in protest outside the prime minister's office are an indicator of an under-reaction. The protestors did not depart and the stage is set for more confrontations.

In Egypt, a single cycle has run in four days, but President Mubarak is clearly made of tougher stuff than Ben Ali.

On Tuesday, the police were tolerant of the political protest gatherings in Cairo. When these escalated and spread outside Cairo, the police used more force and the paramilitary forces showed up in armored cars. Much of that occurred on Thursday and early Friday.

On Friday, Mubarak called in the Army after the paramilitary police were swamped by protestors and made his first dump of loyal people. He has thrown his government under the bus, so to speak, dumping people, but not changing policies. His promises of political reform represent promises to do things he was supposed to have been doing all along.

Dumping the government, meaning the parliamentary cabinet, will do nothing to satisfy the crowds. The next phase is likely to be a very short period of tolerance of public discontent to confirm that the concession phase failed and that he has no choice but to crackdown, this time using the Army.

On Saturday morning a new cycle will begin for the Mubarak regime, but the situation looks complex, as described below. Things are not as they are reported by western media.


Differences between Tunisia and Egypt

The predominant pattern in internal instability is that it begins in the periphery and moves to the center of power. In that sense it is centripetal. The periphery exists in several senses. Geographically, it represents the regions where the government mandate is weakest, usually in remote border regions. Politically, it represents the domain of the disenfranchised and powerless. Economically, it is the pool of those who cannot make ends meet no matter how hard they work.

In Tunisia, the disorders began in southern Tunisia, according to well-informed news sources, and slowing spread to Tunis, where the center of power resides. The politically disenfranchised and economically destitute, embodied by the under- and unemployed coalesced and moved to Tunis during a two week period.

Climactic action occurred in Tunis with Ben Ali's departure. However, news sources report that little has changed in southern Tunis, providing more indications that a revolution has not occurred yet. The kinetic movement and the geometry make Tunisia almost a text book case of the dynamism in internal instability. There are dozens of instances from communist Eastern Europe to Soeharto's Indonesia that follow broadly similar patterns.

In Egypt, the dynamics of the action have been much different. The unrest began in Cairo, the center of power and the center of the government's strength. That is so unusual and such an anomaly that that fact alone is a red flag for skullduggery.

There is no spontaneity in the heart of the government. No body starts a revolution in the center unless he has cover and high level backing. The government was fully aware of the emerging unrest after the first day. The whole world knew for that matter, but the unrest grew for two days unchecked.

The Egyptian security services are highly competent in internal security. They routinely crackdown on the Muslim Brotherhood, for example, if members identify themselves in public, but not this time.

The second major anomaly is that kinetics of the movement. The unrest spread outwards from Cairo to Suez, then Alexandria and other towns, according to press reports. This is centrifugal movement, precisely the opposite direction of spontaneous unrest. Thus having drawn security attention away from Cairo, the day of rage occurred in Cairo and other cities, almost simultaneously. This is shaped, organized behavior.

The third anomaly is an inept response despite extensive preparations. Earliest news reports from Egypt confirm that the government had gone to considerable lengths to prepare for today's demonstrations. The disruption of the internet and social networking systems began hours before Friday prayers. Even without the internet and social networking, large demonstrations in the thousands managed to get organized, coordinate and stage simultaneously.

The fourth anomaly, which also occurred in Tunisia, is the opposition has no guns, no means of coercion. That is always the signature that the opposition is being manipulated, if not supported, by disaffected factions in the existing leadership. That is certainly what happened in Tunisia and appears to be the case in Egypt.

The paramilitary police and Army armored units were sighted in Cairo hours before unrest surged into the streets. The forces were ready, but did not act effectively or apparently cohesively. This looks contrived. Plus the Army was cheered when it finally moved into the streets of Cairo, Alexandria and Suez.

The demonstrators attacked the same set of targets in every city; police stations and local chapters of the government party. Museums and other symbols of the state were actually protected from looters by the demonstrators. That is not what happened in Kyrgyzstan last year, for example. There is an underlying order to what is taking place in Egypt.

News commentators have worked hard to try to explain the anomalies without success. The NightWatch hypothesis is that Egypt is not experiencing a revolution so much as a transition to a new leadership. That transition is not complete.

Some inside group that has been loyal to Mubarak has abetted this popular uprising. One expert suggested that it has been staged to prevent Mubarak from investing his son Gamal as his successor, in an Egyptian caricature of North Korean dynastic succession.

The group with the motive, intention and the means is the Army, according to that expert
. Indirect evidence supports that hypothesis. The implications are that Readers should expect more street clashes that justify Army intervention, but are surprisingly not bloody. Mubarak will step down after a decent, brief interval.

The tradition of military-backed government that Nasser began and Sadat and Mubarak perpetuated will be handed on to a new generation of officers. Prices will be lowered, but there are no jobs.
Note the techniques of analysis and its much clearer than the talking head vulture reporters on CNN/Faux etc.

Egypt is different than Tunisia and its the Mameluke effect in play. One Sultan is being replaced by another and its not dynastic.
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by Johann »

brihaspati wrote:Just a gentle reminder - Iran and Iraq all changed regimes [Shah->Khomeini, pre-Baath->Saddam] through a popular uprising, with seeds of "liberal" and left/Marxists inside pockets of mobilization. The theocracy and Islamists stayed hidden and away - but joined in with sections of the army at the proper time to take power. Popular uprisings may provide the delegitimization and paralysis in the autocrat which provides the necessary cover for mullahcracy+military to take over. The liberals are sacrificed like goats and camels either way.
Hi Brihaspati,

The Iranian revolution was a popular one, but right at the start it coalesced around the figure of Khomeini since he was the most visible and determined of the Shah's opponents.

In fact the spark was when the police fired on madrasa students marching, demanding action against a pro-Shah figure who had 'insulted' Khomeini in an article. Then of course came the protest marches against the killing of the talibs, and that was joined by thousands more Iranians, who faced state violence, and on and on in an upward cycle of mobilisation.

I know dozens and dozens of secular Iranians who marched in 1978-1979 carrying Khomeini's picture even though they were liberals or even atheist Marxists, and shouted 'allahu akbar!'. I know dozens of others who had no political affiliation at the time, but who were so inspired by Khomeini's depth of will in resisting the shah that they grew beards and put on chadors. Most of them gave up on that when Khomeini turned out to be as bad as the Shah when it came to repression and economic management, but still, religion was right out in front.

In Iraq, like Syria, marches were openly organised by the Baath Party and the Communist Party which competed for influence, and which were rallying points for the angry and nationalistic but politically uncommitted. Of course there were sectarian undertones - Sunnis tended to flock to the Baath, while Shia tended to join the Communists, even though both were secular parties.

This is why social media is SO important today - it means that party structures are no longer the most important rallying force. But without party structures, or at least a period of civil society dialogue and gestation there is a lack of political consensus or strategy needed to bring real and lasting change.

The Muslim Brotherhood is not out in force in Egypt today because it has become cautious after experiencing the cycles that Nightwatch alludes to. They have a historical memory that most ordinary Egyptians (outside the state and Al-Azhar) lack. They will not make a play until it is clear the *regime* - and not just the Mubaraks- are falling. Anything more will expose them to great dangers.
Last edited by Johann on 29 Jan 2011 22:23, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by SwamyG »

brihaspati wrote:Just a gentle reminder - Iran and Iraq all changed regimes [Shah->Khomeini, pre-Baath->Saddam] through a popular uprising, with seeds of "liberal" and left/Marxists inside pockets of mobilization. The theocracy and Islamists stayed hidden and away - but joined in with sections of the army at the proper time to take power. Popular uprisings may provide the delegitimization and paralysis in the autocrat which provides the necessary cover for mullahcracy+military to take over. The liberals are sacrificed like goats and camels either way.
I think it is because, religion has only so much hold on bulk of the population. It does not feed and clothe the people. Neither it provides stability and security. Liberal/progressive values are high and are seen as means to get out of oppressive dictators and set people on paths of opportunities. People recognize that oppression keeps them both materialistically and spiritually poor. So the first pit stop would be to remove the oppression. What better way than to eschew progressive ideas. But once they do manage to throw out the dictatorships, they encounter challenges. They do not see instant change, it is still painful and slow path. But they do not recognize, and are not allowed to recognize, they are on the right path. Mullahs step in and point out the flaws in progressive ways. So the people are shown neither dictatorship nor progressive ideologies have helped them. So they emotionally tugged to return to the "basics" - Islamic way of life. The Mullahs and leaders once in power then in order to keep stability and semblance of progress join hands with any power that will help them out. West decides there is money to be made, by selling arms to their military. They get their fingers into the resources that Mullahs control. Mullahs need money to buy arms and stay in control.

India was fortunate to have good Freedom Fighters who held visions for the country. Several leaders had flaws, but in spite of all their fighting they managed to haul India out of British rule and set it on the path of stability and progress.
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by Pranav »

Khomeini and Saddam were both supported by the West at crucial stages in their careers. As regards current scenario in Egypt, the situation is somewhat murky. See

Egypt protests: America's secret backing for rebel leaders behind uprising - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... ising.html

Also, from a few months ago: Soros backs Egypt weekly to give Arab bloggers exposure - http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-enter ... 34927.html

On the other hand, as regards Mubarak's new VP, see Omar Suleiman: Egypt's Own George Mitchell - http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/20 ... _mitchell/
One of the most disappointing encounters I had with Suleiman was during the time he led efforts to patch together a revived "unity government" in Palestine, tying back together Fatah and Hamas that had split in a bloody and violent civil war which resulted in each party governing different parts of Palestine.

Egypt was selected by the Arab League to lead these talks -- and Suleiman became the Egyptian "George Mitchell" for these unity efforts. Fatah and Hamas came close several times to a deal -- but ultimately, the United States privately conveyed to Mubarak and to Suleiman that it didn't want to see the process succeed.

The Saudis who supported a restored unity government in Palestine were highly irritated when Egypt, supposedly brokering a rapprochement between Hamas and Fatah actually sabotaged the effort.

Suleiman, intel chief and now Egypt's VP, was America's proxy.
Last edited by Pranav on 29 Jan 2011 22:50, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by Johann »

Pranav wrote: On the other hand, as regards Mubarak's new VP, see Omar Suleiman: Egypt's Own George Mitchell - http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/20 ... _mitchell/
If I may quote myself from page 61, a couple of days back, Gen. Suleiman's appointment was entirely predictable - in fact it was precisely what was expected;
Johann wrote:
...There were only two serious contenders to succeed Mubarak - his son Gamal, and General Omar Suleiman, the head of intelligence since 1993.

Suleiman had lost the contest to Gamal, but now that Mubarak needs the Army at his side more than ever...things may change. We may well be heading back to active military dictatorship in the Arab world.

Even in Tunisia the biggest power broker right now is the Army chief of staff, with the unions in second place. There is nothing as powerful as the unions in Egypt.
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by ramana »

Yes Johann had predicted it would be another general and most likely Gen Suleiman and even commented that this is a throwback to Mameluk Egypt.

This is BRF first.
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by brihaspati »

X-posting from "future scenarios" thread in reply to Prem:

the Islam dominated ocuntries are now mostly out of US influence - society wise. There are strong appreciation for the tools that west has provided, but this should not be taken to mean any deep love for US or the west. There will be desire for greater civil liberties, "hedonsim" if you choose to call that - in those parts of the Islamic societies which has been able to enrich itself fabulously.

But basic economic trends show that for the whole society to reach that "dirty rich" stage, is a long way off, and perhaps not even feasible given current framework. Which means the overwhelming majority of Islamic societies in large populous Islamic nations will not identify with western lifestyles and values except those that help them to attain power - facebook for mobilization and jeans for convenience in street fighting compared to traditional flowing gear.

No US influenced and controlled independent region in the CAR/POK/AFG is possible. US is a dying imperialist power, and is a the stage that the Brits were after the WWI - apparently supreme and unchallenged and at the peak after the fall of USSR. But, it is dying as a superpower. It does not have the wherewithal and internal drive left to create new pro-US nations in Islamist regions which have produced their own populist narratives.

In fact TSP itself is in a precarious position where popular anger, may provide the spark for disintegration because of pre-existing Islamic networks ready to take advantage of "disorder" and ethnic dissent. OIC and the Arab league may try to pre-empt this by calling for a general programme of reforms and electoral or representative reforms. Which in turn will only bring together a kind of populist-Islamist supported by portions of the military government.

The military in most Islamist countries will appear more respectable and admirable to the Islam-trained minds, and will form an essential core of these new populist-Islamist regimes after execution of the top few levels seen to be associated with "ancien regimes". Mini-Irans more likely than pseudo-Kemalist neo-Turkeys.
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by Pranav »

The relationship between the Egyptian and American militaries is, in fact, so close that it was no surprise on Friday to find two dozen senior Egyptian military officials at the Pentagon, halfway through an annual week of meetings, lunches and dinners with their American counterparts.

By the afternoon, the Egyptians had cut short the talks to return to Cairo, but not before a top American Defense Department official, Alexander Vershbow, had urged them to exercise “restraint,” the Pentagon said.

It remained unclear on Saturday, as the Egyptian Army was deployed on the streets of Cairo for the first time in decades, to what degree the military would remain loyal to the embattled president, Hosni Mubarak.


http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/30/world ... ?src=twrhp
Looks like the US wants to change horses.
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by shyamd »

Omar Suleiman is perfect. He is working with the West, Israel and the GCC. He knows the region well as he's the intelligence minister. He travels to Tel Aviv now and then on official business, handles the palesitinian file. He is a close ally of Mubarak, any problems come up, Mubarak normally throws the file to Suleiman.

I think US will be happy with him. I think Obama's comments are just playing to local american audience more than anyone else.
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by ramana »

To add to it, US comments show how deep they are involved in Egypt. Miles Copeland the retired intel operative wrote about it in "Games Nations Play". Egypt became a US munna around 1956 after Ike saved their butt. The game after that was to wean them away from the FSU. And that was completed after Sadat had a chance to claim H&D saved by his disastrous foray across the Suez in 1973.
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by shyamd »

You know all this means, Mubarak isn't going anywhere. I think the way things are going, its working in his favour.
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by Johann »

Ramana,

The Truman administration began intensely courting Nasser and company in 1952, but despite US intervention against the UK, Israel and France in 1956, the US-Egyptian relationship went in to decline because this did not prevent the rise of Soviet influence within Egypt. This is not surprising given that people like Ali Sabri, the head of Nasser's secret police were doctrinaire socialists.

The Eisenhower doctrine of January 1957 reversed US policy, tilting towards Israel over Egypt.

In 1961 Nasser adopted a Marxist economic framework and nationalised most industry and commerce. By 1969 Soviet aircraft and SAM regiments were defending Cairo. The Soviets were ready to go to war for Egypt.

Only Nasser's death in 1970 and the following protracted high level leadership struggle allowed Sadat to build a close relationship with the US.

The interesting thing is that the *same* thing happened in Syria at the same time - Hafez al-Asad purged his old boss Jadid.

The difference in what followed is that the US was able to pay off Israel to return the Sinai to Egypt, but was not able to reach a price that would pursuade them to return the Golaan Heights to Syria.

That is the ONLY reason Egypt was able to build a strategic relationship with Egypt, and the ONLY reason it was unable to do so with Syria. Hafez al-Asad repeatedly assured the Americans he'd do what the Egyptians did if he got what they got - full return of territory lost in 1967 and 1973.
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by ramana »

ShyamD, Correction the system wont change but the head might change. However with Gen Suleiman as Sultan in waiting no need for even that.
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by rsingh »

shyamd wrote:Omar Suleiman is perfect. He is working with the West, Israel and the GCC. He knows the region well as he's the intelligence minister. He travels to Tel Aviv now and then on official business, handles the palesitinian file. He is a close ally of Mubarak, any problems come up, Mubarak normally throws the file to Suleiman.

I think US will be happy with him. I think Obama's comments are just playing to local american audience more than anyone else.
Right. But it is too late and too little. It smells blood. Egyptians know Omar Suleiman......it is all the same old system. Things are out of hand for the moment. 100 people died already. IMO army take over with promise of election within 3 months. Next two days are crucial. BTW has anybody paid attention to wikileaks docs about US trying to "destabilize" Mubarak for last 3 years?
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by Ambar »

Wouldn't elections change everything? Unless ofcourse it is rigged in favor of another US backed puppet. If this is yet another 'color revolution' then we should see US hold strings in Tunisia too, but that does not seem to be the case. The next couple of weeks should be interesting. As predicted, King Abdullah has issued a strong statement in support of Hosni Mubarak.

The last thing US/Israel currently wants is uncertainty in the region.They have seen how Gaza and Lebanon have turned into.They have seen the menacing tentacles of Iran spreading. Given all these factors, would US venture into hanging its loyal puppets dry and replace them with new ones? For what? In case of previous US backed color revolutions, there was a strong case for backing new leaders who were pro-US and anti-Russia. Here we have nations like Tunisia,Yemen,Egypt and Jordan - i don't see a strong case for Pentagon/Langley trying to change any of them.

On a side note, if these 'revolutions' spread across arab world and well into the summer, i fully expect Pakis to shape something similar in Srinagar through their 'jihali pups'.
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by pgbhat »

From Haaretz...
LINK wrote:If the Mubarak regime is toppled, the quiet coordination of security between Israel and Egypt will quickly be negatively affected. It will affect relations between Cairo's relationship with the Hamas government in the Gaza Strip, it will harm the international forces stationed in Sinai.

It will mean the refusal of Egypt to continue to allow the movement of Israeli ships carrying missiles through the Suez canal, which was permitted for the last two years, according to reports in the foreign press, in order to combat weapons smuggling from Sudan to Gaza. In the long run, Egypt's already-cold peace treaty with Israel will get even colder.
From the perspective of the IDF, the events are going to demand a complete reorganization. For the last 20 years, the IDF has not included a serious threat from Egypt in its operational plan.
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by ramana »

Haretz assumes this regime change is revolutionary i.e. a break from past. From the factors slowly dribbling in its a US triggered event to ensure control is with Egyptian military instead of dynastic weaklings. So its par for the course..
The masses disgruntlement is being used by other actors. One lesson for India is to see how the close coordination with Egyptian military is being used to shape the outcome.
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by svinayak »

ramana wrote: US triggered event to ensure control is with Egyptian military One lesson for India is to see how the close coordination with Egyptian military is being used to shape the outcome.
So from the map of the middle east US is able to control the military of almost most countries except Iran , syria, turkey

Image
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by ramana »

Its called cooperative engagement or cooperative neutering. And all those military pooh bahs think they are ghazis but all are neutered hounds like in the movie UP.

The Brits at their zenith before WWII used to have same arrangement.
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by svinayak »

ramana wrote:Its called cooperative engagement or cooperative neutering. And all those military pooh bahs think they are ghazis but all are neutered hounds like in the movie UP.

The Brits at their zenith before WWII used to have same arrangement.
How much is the US control over Pakistan Military
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by ramana »

Good enough for their purposes.
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by shyamd »

Arabian whispers over Pak
- Delhi wonders if turmoil tremors will singe Islamabad
SUJAN DUTTA
A young protester at a demonstration against Hosni Mubarak in front of the Egyptian embassy in Beirut. (Reuters)

New Delhi, Jan. 29: A chain-smoking Egyptian policeman in the port city of Al Arish told a group of Indians carrying aid to the Gaza Strip earlier this month that “even (President Hosni) Mubarak cannot help unless you pay up”.

Egyptian Security police in the Sinai peninsula’s largest city – that is also the gateway to the Gaza Strip – had detained the Indians in the international airport and were haggling for two thousand dollars as baksheesh.

One of the Indians, Magsaysay Award winner Sandeep Pandey, sat down on the floor in the terminal’s foyer and began spinning yarn from his “charkha”, symbolic of Gandhi’s satyagraha against the British, even as backroom negotiations were on. An hour later, the corrupt police packed the group into creaky minibuses and escorted them to the Rafah Crossing into the Gaza Strip, “liberated Palestine”.

Little did the Egyptian security police know that that brief encounter with a bunch of Indians would presage violent public outburst on the same road two weeks later.

For the last two days on that desert road, the baksheesh-hungry security police have been spraying bullets and aiming water cannons on the public from the Mediterranean port city through the village of al-Mahdeyya near the Rafah Crossing where protesters burnt tyres and blocked vehicles.

Sadly for New Delhi, the non-official Satyagraha inside the airport terminal in Al Arish was the last bit of Indian pacifist activism in the country that is now in ferment.

Even as the Indians carrying aid to the Gaza Strip were waiting to cross Rafah, Egypt’s tiny neighbour, Tunisia, was on a tailspin into turmoil. During the five days of unrest in Egypt so far the fire lit in Tunis has swung eastwards, cutting a swathe through Jordan and up to Yemen bypassing Saudi Arabia.

In a strange connect, Calcutta and Cairo have forged a link: along the banks through which the Nile and the Hooghly flow, thirty-year-old regimes are on the verge of breaking down.

And in New Delhi, India’s diplomatic establishment is trying to configure where the protests will lead and -- specifically, how they might singe Pakistan – as if it were trying to crack the riddle of the Sphinx. Arab Street is drawing dangerously close to Kashmir.

In the Arab World, however, there is a sustained perception that India has in recent years diluted its engagement while intensifying its relations with Israel. Whether true or not, such a perception itself creates a communication gap that is felt most by New Delhi in times such as these.

“We wish stability in the region. But we do not want to venture any prescriptions,” was all that a senior foreign ministry official would say on Friday when asked by an Arab journalist for India’s assessment of what was happening in West Asia.

Commentators in the West who find increasing purchase in New Delhi have been quick to suggest that the popular upheavals in the Arab world are symptomatic of “fragrant revolutions”, like the “colour revolutions” – such as the velvet, rose, tulip and orange – that swept Central Asia and Eastern Europe in the aftermath of the collapse of the Soviet Union (1991). The term gaining currency is the “jasmine revolution” because many Tunisian men are in the habit of sticking the flower in an ear. But, on a recent windshield tour through a large part of West Asia, covering Iran, eastern Turkey (Turkish Kurdistan), Syria, Egypt and into the Gaza Strip, a correspondent of The Telegraph found evidence of increasing ire against the US and it’s alleged interventionist policies in the Middle-East.

At Saida, near Lebanon’s border with Israel for example, a youth with obvious Hezbollah sympathies, greeted an Indian journalist saying: “Hindostan? You have nuke bomb. Give it to us. We will drop it in Israel and US”. Even in secular Turkey, the hatred was in-your-face, with brazen youth climbing into buses and asking the passengers, “I love Al Qaida. What about you?”

It is more likely that the West will be rudely stunned by stink in its hunt for fragrance.

“At present these protests are a youth movement – against corruption and rising prices. But the Muslim Brotherhood (a large but banned outfit) has joined the protests since yesterday. Eventually these protests can feed into Islamic fundamentalism,” warns A K Pasha, director of the Gulf Studies Programme in Delhi’s Jawaharlal Nehru University (JNU).

Eclipsed by the current wave of popular upheaval is the issue that has been at the core of Arab politics so far: the question of Palestine.

Since the Israeli raid on a ship carrying aid activists to the Gaza Strip in May last year, public sentiment against Israel and the US has been on the rise. The leakage through the Arabic news channel

Al-Jazeera of the “Palestinian Papers” last week – in which the more “moderate” West Bank Palestinian Authority of Mahmoud Abbas is alleged to have compromised with Israel, has only strengthened the more radical Hamas. The Hamas is the Palestinian Authority in the Gaza Strip that is blockaded by Israel. And Israel, in turn, is in the middle of a ring of fire – Egypt, Lebanon, Gaza, the West Bank, and possibly Jordan.

“The Palestinian people look for stability in the Arab world,” says Zuhair Hamdallah Zaid, minister with the Palestinian mission in New Delhi. “This is not the kind of ‘Intifada’ (uprising) we look far even though we are with the people. Our Intifada was against (the Israeli) Occupation. I think that in these countries, the regimes need to give the people some rights and I am afraid that the most important issue in the Arab world – Palestine – is in danger of getting lost.”

The protests that have broken have to do more with rising prices and unemployment and dignity for now than with Palestine that is an aspiration shared by all the peoples across the Arab world across borders. Jordan, to the west of Israel and Palestine, is home to most Palestinian refugees. Protestors in its capital Amman have been alleging that the Hashemite king and his accomplices are minting money at their cost.

To Israel’s north, in Lebanon, an administration supported by the Iran-backed Hezbollah – whose raison d’etre is to wage war against Israel – has taken over. In cosmopolitan Lebanon that in-turn has led to protestors pouring out in thousands choking the streets of its capital, Beirut.

It is ironic that the two countries that appear to be most stable across the region are Iran and Syria, both strongly anti-US. For all the charges of nuclear proliferation and human rights abuses against it, Iran’s running democracy, complete with charges of rigging, is comparable with India. The big difference is that Iran has proclaimed itself an Islamic country.

In Syria, Bashar al-Assad, who has been running an administration handed down by his father, Hafez-al Assad, has been vocal against the US himself and considers his country to be at war with Israel over the Golan Heights and, often, with the US because American troops are at its border with Iraq.

In Saudi Arabia, where the US firmly backs the regime of king Abdullah bin Abdulaziz Al Saud and abandons its mission to foster democracy in the rest of the world, the Sultan has been more generous – on a relative scale -- with the riches from selling oil while drawing a tight political shroud over public dissent. The king was also India’s chief guest at the Republic Day parade in 2006 and Prime Minister Manmohan Singh visited Riyadh last year.

But beyond Saudi, in Yemen, where the US has been worrying over a revival of the Al Qaida, demonstrators have been wearing Pink headscarves and holding Pink placards that warn the Sultan with slogans such as “thirty-two years is enough” and “Yemen has strong people too.”

This eastward swing has brought Arab Street dangerously close to Pakistan and through it – to Kashmir. In a sense, though, the possibility of Pakistan actually acting as a buffer exists because it is already being consumed from within by multiple conflicts – Shia versus Sunni, jihadi versus the US and the ISI versus everyone else.

“Anti-Americanism can engulf Pakistan but it remains to be seen how much because of the violence that is raging through that country right now,” says Pasha, the professor from JNU.

In a region known for duststorms that last days, finding the paths that cut through deserts can itself be challenging. “Could it be, perhaps, that the Arab world is going to choose its own leaders? Could it be that we are going to see a new Arab world which is not controlled by the West?”, columnist Robert Fisk of The Independent (UK) wonders.

With the Muslim Brotherhood joining the protestors, the possibility of Political Islam overtaking the serious economic demands exists. In Egypt, for example, 50 million of its 85 million population live in poverty. A moderate leadership emerging, if Mubarak were to quit, is a possibility with Mohammed El Baradei, the chief of the International Atomic Energy Agency, returning to Cairo. In the same way, the failure of the moderate – as in Iran, as in Lebanon – could mean the success of the extremist. That is true from the Hooghly to the Nile.
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by ramana »

He is seeing but not comprehending. The Egypt turmoil is different than the Tunisia one. And all West Asia is in ferment since the first Gulf War and even though the masses rage against their leaders the masses are inspired by Western ideas.

Unless Kiyani is against US interests, TSP wont have any fragrant or khusboo revolution. In Egypt the turmoil is being used to change the Sultan. Its a palace coup. Yes Twitter/Witter are new tools but the idea is the same old one.

Reason why Syria and iran are stable is their distance from US. This allows the chaos to not become systemic in their countries.

The closest this fragrant thing in Indian sub-continent was the "khawa' one that almost got Omarbhai!
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by Johann »

ramana wrote: Reason why Syria and iran are stable is their distance from US. This allows the chaos to not become systemic in their countries.
Ramana,

That is not correct.

The public revolt in Iran after the 2009 elections was even bigger than Egypt in 2011 - but the outcome in Egypt is likely to be the same in Iran.

Syria faced its moment in 2004-05.

Neither the origins, nor the outcomes of these events really depend on the United States preferences - that is why many ME powers see the US as a power in decline.

However, I agree that popular anger is being leveraged within the Mamluk sultanate for a change of horses - but the deciding factor is public sentiment. There's a lot of Egyptian respect for the Army (which is seen as defending against Israel, etc), but only contempt for Mubarak's self-enriching son, who they objected to even more than Mubarak.
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by ramana »

Folks eyewitnesses are saying
Egyptian police have withdrawn from streets in Cairo.

1000 prisoners in jail break.


Looks like the situation getting out of control.

-----------------
johann,
while we differ on small points the major outcome we agree. BTW again this Mubarak being replaced by new Mameluke is a BRF first in the world.

Soon chatterati will pick it up once they comprehend the severity of what it means.

Again hats off to you for putting things in perspective.

Salute a Chivas shot in honor!

Not kidding.
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by Pranav »

This fellow Omar Suleiman has been working closely with the US and with Israel, but it is not clear that having him succeed Mubarak is the preferred end-state for "the West".

Mubarak is constrained by the fact that his military brass are very close to their US mentors.

There is a lesson in this for India too - there was recently an article in the Hindu on how senior Indian military officers too are wooed by the US.
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by ramana »

Now military troop carriers are in the streets and being welcomed.

Egyptian cabinet resigned as Mubarak wanted.

CNN has news clips of Egyptian expatriates protesting around the world.
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by Singha »

the egyptian army seems to be in gandhian mode, letting protesters comandeer tanks as vantage points.

hosni's party HQ was set aflame...a few looters descended on the national museum and damaged some mummies but chased off by police and alert citizens.
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by Pranav »

Singha wrote:the egyptian army seems to be in gandhian mode, letting protesters comandeer tanks as vantage points.

hosni's party HQ was set aflame...a few looters descended on the national museum and damaged some mummies but chased off by police and alert citizens.
Basically it all depends on the stand taken by the Egyptian version of the crore commanders. They were being wined and dined in DC.
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by Pranav »

5 elements that are required for a successful revolution in a place like Egypt -

(1) lack of credibility of the government due to corruption and bad governance
(2) rallying of the useful idiots using twitter etc
(3) wining and dining of the crore commanders so that they stand aside
(4) a credible Yeltsin-like figure to take charge at the right moment
(5) management of the media

I'm sure there are other ingredients in the recipe, too.

In India these things are much harder because the great diversity means that legitimacy can be gained only through democratic means (leaving aside EVM considerations for now).
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by abhishek_sharma »

Obama Presses for Change but Not a New Face at the Top

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/30/world ... diplo.html
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by abhishek_sharma »

Egyptians Defiant as Military Does Little to Quash Protests

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/30/world ... egypt.html
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by Johann »

Thank you Ramana, thats very kind of you.

The real question is the extent of political change the Army, and people like Sulaiman are going to permit in Egypt.

Sulaiman as head of the Mukhabarat oversees a good part of the stifling police state that produces the kind of frustrations we see.

There will have to be important symbolic changes beyond the eventual retirement of Hosni and the dismantling of his "National Democratic Party". The current system has far too few channels for public sentiment to make itself felt within government, and that is the definition of a pressure cooker

It is possible that parliament may be allowed to play a bigger and more independent role in the political system, perhaps more like Jordan or Kuwait for example, both of which reformed in the late 80s - early 90s when US power was at its peak in the region. El Baradei may well become the speaker of the new parliament.
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