Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2010

[anupmisra]

Next Khabar: The Pakistanis raped the white women psychologists also who were sent to look into their psychological problems due to unhappy marriages. The Pakis need even more sympathy!

Is that why the pakis kill and create mayhem and release their pent-up tension because the brits termed them "a martial race"?

[Pranav]

I agree with you. The Chinese and the Islamists can have a wonderful relationship.

The Islamists understand and respect power, and they know that the Chinese, with their efficient and ruthless internal security apparatus, will not tolerate any nonsense from the Uighurs. The Islamists would rather focus on getting Chinese help to fight other battles.

For India, pandering to domestic Islamists and separatists in the name of secularism will earn nothing but contempt from Islamists.

For the Hindu and the Jew, there is intense hatred and there is not much one can do about it. So we will always get hit! For the big imperialists of the world - the British and the Americans, there is a healthy respect, but also animosity.

One correction .... the Brits and Americans are hated because their imperialism is perceived to be controlled by Jews. But yes, there will be a healthy respect as long they can maintain their power.

If the more rabid Islamists come to power in Islamabad, then the only thing that will change is that the nukes would target the West as well as India, which they already do, but it becomes all the more dangerous for India too because the American leash on Pakistanis would vanish and the Chinese would be more than happy to see Pakistan tightening the screws even more on India. But then the Chinese may decide to give counsel to the Pakistani Islamists as well, that they keep their rhetoric below the critical level, so as to not invite massive American retaliation, without necessarily decreasing the threat level of the Extra-Rabid Pakistani Islamists towards YYY.

I don't think there has been much of an American leash on Pakistan vis-a-vis India. But as the US gets more worried about Chinese power, and as the Paks slip more and more into the Chinese camp, the equations could change.

India will always be regarded as a second-rung power without proven thermo-nukes. In the present scenario it would serve India best to show friendliness towards all camps while maintaining our own red lines.

[Brad Goodman]

We must get Islamists in power in Pakistan. The Islamists hate India anyway, but India has always been hated - nothing new there. But the Islamists, unlike the establishment are anti-US as well and anti-China insofar as Chinese attitudes to Uighurs go. If Islamists are in power in Pakistan, the US is out and China is hardly going to be "in" until they stop eating pork and talk about rights for Uighur. That is why both China and the US support the RAPE Paki establishment. Chinese and US influence in Pakistan is via that group. If that group goes, their influence goes.

India, with its humane treatment of Muslims has a far better chance of developing a trading relationship with an Islamist government in Pakistan. India treats Islam better that the US and China combined. And has more successful and prosperous Muslims than the US and China combined.

Shiv ji. I wanted to deep dive a little more on this point since its not a matter of if but when islamist will sieze power in isloo. I know you have done a great research on Pakistan and I was wondering if we can look at the first statement under microscope to quantify what it means to India & Indians. Second we can then see its implications when pakis go under. My general understanding was ( an please feel free to correct me here ) mango abdul had an indifferent attitude towards India. I mean yeah he would cheer when terrorist would kill IA in kashmir but the same abdul was more happier when towers came down. Even Dawood Gilani wanted to go after denmark more than mumbai. Same with most pakjabi telebunies. So their hatered for India is pretty much in same context as all other kafirs nothing special rather in current popularity charts Unkil Israel would beat us hands down. When papiya jhapiya WKK's go to lahore and karachi they come back with sparkle in their eyes and love in their heart for pakis. Auto wala and shopkeepers refusing money have been common themes in all articles I have read. I guess most of the times whether on forums or on TV all we hear is RAPES. Who are basically trying to keep abdul facing east to an imaginary enemy while they can loot paki bait ul mall. I guess our fear of islamist pakis attacking us is as correct as mother telling kid "so jaa nahi to gabbar aa jayega". With so much bollywood and ekta kapoor dose running in their blood stream along with Afgan herion their ambitions differ from RAPES. While RAPES want lal quila abduls want madhuri dixit. Islamist want to over throw C Asia Xinxiang long and KSA beore they would think of lal quila.

[archan]

someone please copy-paste the good posts by these gentlemen in the last 3 pages to the collection of good posts thread.

[shiv]

With so much bollywood and ekta kapoor dose running in their blood stream along with Afgan herion their ambitions differ from RAPES. While RAPES want lal quila abduls want madhuri dixit. Islamist want to over throw C Asia Xinxiang long and KSA beore they would think of lal quila.

Whether it works this way or not Islamists will have to run a country - or more likely more than one country where Pakistan used to be. An Islamist controlled Pakistan will not be one single nation. I think too much Weshtren thinking has blinded people into imagining that the artificial state of Pakistan is one nation while India is the one which can give away parts of itself using internal Jaichands.

India and Pakistan are very similar. India stays together by appeasing every minority. Pakistan has stayed together by a brutal elite led army and by suppressing dissent while directing ire at external foes. Not by Islam.

If Islam rules Pakistan it will split - probably into Baluchistan, Pashtunistan and a rump state Pakistan. Each of these states will have a country to run. If that country must run it must have an economy and that economy must work. 180 million people is a huge number for any nation to support and it is completely foolish to think that 180 million people can have healthcare, education and jobs courtesy the Chinese. Pakistan has stayed together by feeding and supporting the elite. Both by the US and China.

[RajeshA]

Next Khabar: The Pakistanis raped the white women psychologists also who were sent to look into their psychological problems due to unhappy marriages. The Pakis need even more sympathy!

Is that why the pakis kill and create mayhem and release their pent-up tension because the brits termed them "a martial race"?

Yes, the Brits put them under too much pressure to perform by calling them an out-and-out "martial race"! Social pressures have forced them to become an in-an-in "marital race"! So much pressure is making Pakis go bonkers! So my appeal to all Brits is to have pity on Pakis and allow yourselves to be raped!

[A_Gupta]

The Pakistani attitude towards India is perfectly exemplified by the Veena Malik episode.
e.g., here with Lollywood director Syed Noor
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRs2w5hhcio

Eventually it comes out that Pakistanis are ashamed that Veena Malik did whatever **in Hindustan**. But not one of them is ashamed e.g., about what Pakistanis did on 26/11.

[Suppiah]

duplicated

[Suppiah]

Interesting discussions..

I have always felt that fundoos taking formal reins of regime in TSP is actually good for India because as far as we are concerned we are anyway facing the worst that TSP has to offer. It will take a few years of chaos, mass casualties and decline for Pakbarians to get tired of the bunnies and another decade or so for them to get rid of them.. just look at Iran as example. In the meantime, it is lot of fun watching them go down the tube and sink deeper into a 'pure' hole.

It is a scary scenario for rest of world but just another variation of same theme for India a formalisation of reality when even the most liberal Paki-hugging western politician or anal-yst would be forced to see the truth for what it is and not cover up with == theories...same goes for our WKKs...

[Gagan]

I fully endorse RajeshA-ji's analysis of Islamista and the Communists.

But I have to add a subsection to that clause.

"Familiarity breeds contempt"

In the end that is what happened to the US-Pakistani relationship, and that is what will happen to the Pakistani-China or Islamist-China relationship.

Why these two (Pakistanis-Islamists) will have contempt for their partners one may ask?
Its simple, because these guys believe that they are 'Ghazis' and they are natural rabble rousers. It won't be long before the purer ones in the Islamists point out what all the Chinese eat and who all they don't pray.

And we can argue one way or the other till the end of time.

In the end, there is no single truth. only expediency - political and financial that will motivate things.

PS: Present day Iraq is a different breed from Pakistan, KSA or Iran. I dare the chinese wimmen to move about in shorts in either of these 'pure' societies.

[RajeshA]

I don't think there has been much of an American leash on Pakistan vis-a-vis India. But as the US gets more worried about Chinese power, and as the Paks slip more and more into the Chinese camp, the equations could change.

The American leash has been Pakistan's necessity to hold a Western-friendly face in a world order dominated by the Western narrative, and with America financing Pakistan. The Western-friendly face has also meant that they do not go overboard with the Islamist rhetoric or their barbarity, including towards India. The barbarity certainly has hit India numerous times, so I am making the comment relative to what I think is possible, where a Islamic-Rabid Pakistan moves out of the American orbit. That would mean, they would not have any further need to wear masks as Western-friendly, as "civilized" people.

Iran is nothing. The potential for Barbarity in Pakistan is too immense to contemplate.

So all I am saying is that India has to fear a takeover of Pakistan by Islamists, by Islamists, I mean people not under America's thumb.

What India needs to ensure is not a whole-scale Islamist takeover, but rather a fragmentation of Pakistan and multiple competing power centers in each fragment. That however is not going to happen by leaving Pakistan alone to stew in its own juices by actively working for such a scenario.

[RajeshA]

In the end, there is no single truth. only expediency - political and financial that will motivate things.

Gagan ji,
that is exactly what I too think.

Of course, the fact that Chinese eat pork will not sit too well with Islamists, but it is a question of priorities. The Islamists would be in war with so many others, from Israel, to India, to the whole West, to Filipinos, to Thai, etc. And the Chinese will ensure that these wars go on for ever, thereby ensuring that the question of Chinese eating pork never really becomes the focus for the Islamists, especially with the Chinese giving political, military and even some financial support to the Islamists.

[Gagan]

Iran is nothing. The potential for Barbarity in Pakistan is too immense to contemplate.

Very true. The Iranian experiment was somewhat controlled. The islamists were relatively educated and that society values education much like other developed societies.
Compared to that, the Pakistani revolution will be lead by the 'Pakistan studies' educated people, with the bulk being the madarsa educated commoners. And as Shiv-ji has stated, these guys are armed to the teeth. At least the Iranians were not blowing themselves off then, but these ghazis are willing to spill blood at the drop of the hat - they mostly spill their own blood.

What India needs to ensure is not a whole-scale Islamist takeover, but rather a fragmentation of Pakistan and multiple competing power centers in each fragment. That however is not going to happen by leaving Pakistan alone to stew in its own juices by actively working for such a scenario.

Fragmentation along ethnic lines is very feasible, specially amongst those who want to protect their citizens from the Islamists. But again, leadership is the key. Strong leadership is a must for any such movement to succeed.

[RajeshA]

What India needs to ensure is not a whole-scale Islamist takeover, but rather a fragmentation of Pakistan and multiple competing power centers in each fragment. That however is not going to happen by leaving Pakistan alone to stew in its own juices by actively working for such a scenario.

Fragmentation along ethnic lines is very feasible, specially amongst those who want to protect their citizens from the Islamists. But again, leadership is the key. Strong leadership is a must for any such movement to succeed.

There are of course the bigger fault-lines between Pakjabis, Sindhis, Pushtuns, Baluchis, Mohajirs, Gilgitians, Baltistanis, Seraikis, Hindkos, etc., but we have to go a lot further and look for fault-lines between tribes, between sub-tribes, between Shias areas and Sunni regions, between Deobandi areas and Barelvi areas, between various castes, and most importantly based on personality clashes. Even Islamists can be divided into various madrassas and schools, claiming allegiance to different "Sufis". Fragmentation should be complete, and all groups should be armed to the teeth, with assassinations and sectarian violence the order of the day.

If Islamists are to come to power, than it best if there are a 100 Mullah Omars unwilling to accept the authority of any other guy. Even better if between every one of the 100 Mullah Omars there are a 100 blood feuds. Better still if all the 100 Mullah Omars are dependent on India for their sustenance.

[Manny]

I concur, It is India's interest that Pakistan is ruled by an Islamic govt.

[Brad Goodman]

Gagan ji,
that is exactly what I too think.

Of course, the fact that Chinese eat pork will not sit too well with Islamists, but it is a question of priorities. The Islamists would be in war with so many others, from Israel, to India, to the whole West, to Filipinos, to Thai, etc. And the Chinese will ensure that these wars go on for ever, thereby ensuring that the question of Chinese eating pork never really becomes the focus for the Islamists, especially with the Chinese giving political, military and even some financial support to the Islamists.

Rajesh ji frankly I disagree here. IMHO if we put real world management techniques to islamists then we are making the same mistakes that unkil is making today. Which sane person would have taken on the might of the soviet bear when it was a superpower with 20K plus nukes enough to anihilate entire planet many times over. Which school of management would have bet on Tanzania Kenya, USS Cole, Twin Towers etc. Islamists are hydra headed monsters they will never work towards "a plan" its like that raging bull in the spanish festival which will run toward any one any time. No one is safe not even the hand that feeds it. They will take on arap kings , cheeni commies and capitalist west at the same time and would still have time to poke at baniya dhoti. Its never going to complete any task and move to next.

[VikramS]

I tend to agree with Johann when it comes to Chinese ambitions and capabilities. They act quietly but they act very well. Their goals are long-term since they are not answerable to any media or elections. Just look at the number of deals they have cut in Africa, including the parts of Africa which have been raked by violence.

The operational freedom which the Chinese have when dealing with unstable/autocratic regimes is significantly larger than what the US has. The streets of Shangai will never be full of posters demanding action about the genocide in Africa, the way the streets of New York have been. The autocrats also know that the US' attitude towards them can change after every election (2 years). The CCP on the other hand is ruling for 60+ years and provides a reliable partner to cut deals with. It is true that when official means can not further US interests, the unofficial means (CIA etc.) will be used. However the operational freedom which the US operatives have is extremely limited; the unofficial operatives also run the risk of being outed (e.g. the Iran-Contra affair).

Often efforts are made here to link India's reluctance to act overtly to TSP perfidy to US pressure. We also tie that to the US investment in TSP, though we do recognize that TSP being the w***e it is, would have found another p**p, if the US was not there. And somehow India's lack of overt action after every provocation is seen as a weak-kneed dhoti clad SDRE bowing down to TFTA pressure coming from Uncle.

But the irony is that after all the discussions, we also seem to come to the conclusion that the best way for the TSP issue to resolve itself is to let it stew in its own juices. As shiv puts it, the rise of the Islamists will be India's best interest. The Islamist will not be able to rise if the TSPA/RAPE can unite the Jehadis under the India threat. In the past few years, the inaction by India, has in some ways, helped direct the Jehadi ire back into the TSP establishment. Any overt threat from India would have resulted in the same demon being harnessed to further undermine India and strengthen the establishment's hold.

Though I do agree that the rise of the Islamists will probably end the rule of the TSPA/RAPE cabal, I am no too sure what will happen if the US leaves. IMHO any power vacuum created will be quickly filled by the PLA. The PLA has a lot at stake: direct access to the Arabian Sea, some level of control over the Jehadis, and the complete encirclement of India.

The Islamists and the Communists talk the same language: the language of fear. They can do business together. It is also easy to paint the Islamists as single-minded robots. However at the end of the day, Islamism are also nothing but ranked opportunists looking to grab political power. If the PLA/CCP extends an arm of support, the Islamists are going to cling to it. Sacrificing the interests of the Xianjing is a very small price to pay for the new Emirs of the TSP.

BTW, the Islamists also know that the PLA will use ruthless force to crush any revolt in Xianjing. Was reading somewhere that the PLA general who was initially sent to pacify the region used a 1:5 formula. For every single PLA casualty, he would extract five local casualties, in cold bood. The Jehadi fervor dies a quick death when it faces those odds.

At the end of the day, I often get distressed by the rona-dhona about Uncle's policy in the past and the supposed inaction by the Indian authorities. It is very easy to say that the result-A happened because of policy-B. What very few go into is the situation !policy-B => ?. What would have happened if policy-B was not in place? To make an attempt at estimating that, you need to understand the players. And from whatever I have learnt from BR, the RAPE/TSPA are rank opportunists and would have found some other sugar daddy, someone who is actually hostile to Indian interests rather than someone who primarily did not care.

[VikramS]

Also much is being made out of Najam Sethi's dismissal of the claims of Chinese investment. Knowing the Chinese are also banias and pure value for money guys, I really do not doubt him. Why would someone invest in a country so unstable as the TSP?


CCP/PLA interest in TSP is pure strategic. They have a policy of extending their circle of influence as far as possible. They started with Tibet 60 years ago, and TSP is the next frontier. And being the banias they are, they will do the bare minimum needed to preserve their influence.

Right now everyone in the waiting to see which way the ball will break. I believe that it is India's best interest that the Ralph Peters plan comes into play before the US leaves Af-Pak. If the US leaves with things still hanging in balance, then the CCP/PLA will fill the vacuum.

The dynamics of how the Peters plan comes into play have to be carefully studied. What is the chain of events which can lead to that? How will the different players react to it? Does the US have the Dollars to finance their stay in Af-Pak with the debt ceiling ready to be hit in the next few months? How long will the CCP continue pumping its economy before the inflation pressures inside force the house to develop a few cracks?

We live in very interesting times; times which will define how the geo-strategic and economic shape of the world will evolve over the next few generations.

[svinayak]

The Pakistani attitude towards India is perfectly exemplified by the Veena Malik episode.
e.g., here with Lollywood director Syed Noor
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRs2w5hhcio

Eventually it comes out that Pakistanis are ashamed that Veena Malik did whatever **in Hindustan**. But not one of them is ashamed e.g., about what Pakistanis did on 26/11.

In 1973-1977 the country was demoralised and with low self esteem

After 1980 with US grants Pak military and Zia program created a new image and self esteem for Pak elite. ANybody in the age above 40 years from Pak are balanced little bit. Anybody less than that age have problem with their self esteem. The H&D was built on being superior to Hindu India and they have stronger army etc. Their islam is superior to Hindu kafir and they are not spoil their purity by touching or interacting.

This Veen Malik has crossed the line in all of them and has sullied the honor. The people who get most upset are below the age of 40

[svinayak]

It is very easy to blame Uncle when the real issue is China.

No I don't agree that the "real problem" is China. China and the US are problems in their own right as far as India is concerned.

In my view if you measure the "amount of problem" caused by US sponsorship of Pakistan in that last 60 years and compare with Chinese aid to Pakistan - I would rate the US's influence as being 80% versus China's 20%.

I find it interesting that the same anglo-phone Macaulayism that binds us to English media and makes Indians love the US is the glue that bound Americans and Pakistani elites..

Pak people go to US and settle down there. Many GC holders are in the Pak Parliament. Lot of rich Pak people want to retire in US. They have multiple residence in these countries.
Not many Pak people want to settle in China. Pak people dont keep residence in China.

[RajeshA]

When Pakistan starts disintegrating, we should go for recognition of the smaller states - Pushtunistan, Pakjab, Sindh, Balochistan, etc. However we should not stay there. Every region which poses danger to us, need to be disintegrated further, along all possible fault-lines with no governments - no RAPE governments, no Islamist governments, no military dictatorships, no democracies! Only anarchy should rule.

It would be catastrophic for India to let a rabid-Sharia Islamist regime of Mullahs to take over Pakistan and exercise control over whole of Pakistan, because then it would be China's handmaiden only and extremely dangerous for India. In a fragmented Pakjab or Pakistan, India would be able to control pro-Chinese and anti-Indian elements more easily by just supporting some rival group (Jihadi or otherwise) getting them to eliminate the anti-Indian Jihadi group with full plausible deniability. Going against a China-supported united centralized theocratic regime would be much more difficult.

But the thing is, we should stop dreaming of the Taliban marching in into Isloo and Pindi, hanging all the Munafiqeen to the trees, and then taking over the whole of Pakistan. That is a desirable outcome, only if there is a certainty that a parallel fragmentation is assured.

[Prem]

If and when islamist rule the country Poakland woll graduate as Thokeland of the world .It will help in drawing the clear lines and no one will lift eyelid when we give them tickets to jannat by the tons. Onlee question is that of Indian political leaders having the mind and spine to exploit the oppertunity and finish the nuisance value of Poakland.

[A_Gupta]

http://www.caravanmagazine.in/Story.aspx?StoryId=714

Forfeiting the Future : Pakistan’s crisis can’t simply be explained by religion
....
Once again, in an echo of the aftermath of Benazir Bhutto’s assassination in 2007, political commentators have depicted Pakistan facing a grave crisis, one caused by a more or less natural progression of rightist Islamic ideologies, whose dominance has erased not only liberal and secular thought but all possible futures for the nation-state.

Such ahistorical views take as given that these conservative, sectarian and militant ideologies emerge organically from Islamic theology—and reflect, in turn, the inevitable effect of growing religiosity in Pakistan. The fault, dear Brutus, lies in the Crescent.

It is clear, of course, that a rather biased and selective understanding of the Muslim past and Islamic theology underlines the violence and fear widely on display in Pakistan. It is valid to ask what enables a columnist to make the illogical leap of equating speech against a legal principle to speech against the dominant religious truth? In a nation of over 90 percent religious conformity, why this sense of deep, abiding fear that some word, some gesture, will unravel the very fabric of belief? Why does the Prophet need Pakistan to defend him?

It behooves us to look for answers beyond the scripture and practice of Islam—for such mass hysteria is not evident among Muslims in Bangladesh or Malaysia or Tunisia or China or America—and toward the political life of religious discourse in South Asia. What we find, in fact, is a long history of the politicisation of the Prophet in Pakistani civil society; tracing its development is critical if we are to understand what possible futures still exist for Pakistan. ...


...This particular prescription by Iqbal did not seem to make much of an impact in colonial India. Iqbal, of course, wasn’t advocating any great shift in doctrine; Muhammad is the central figure of Islam and his figure is revered above all. Yet, after the tumultuous birth of Pakistan, there was indeed a change. Pakistan’s emergence was soon connected, in narratives both political and religious, to the Prophet—he appeared in dreams to key figures to foretell the division of India and his sayings were variously interpreted to prophesise the role of Islam in Pakistan’s political life. Yet, in Zia-ul-Haq’s Pakistan, the Prophet became part of the daily political life in a way that would have been unimaginable to Muslims in the 1910s. Routinely, politicians professed to receive divine sanction from the Prophet for their decision to endorse a public platform or to run for office or to oppose the call for democratic reform; the sunnah—the daily habits of the Prophet—became axiomatic and emblematic rules for everyday life. ...

Iqbal’s poetry, and his concept of the Prophet as mard-e kamil (The Perfect Man), was a key component of Zia-ul-Haq’s Sunnification politics...

Taseer’s cold-blooded murder, and the chilling response to his assassination, reveals less about the crass “Islamisation” of the Pakistani public and more about a deeply entrenched political program that routinely marshals potent symbols against critical voices. The evident success of this program, however, does not erase the fact that the overwhelming majority of Pakistanis battle stark poverty, high inflation, and a lack of access to basic facilities. Even as Islamist parties orchestrate demonstrations against blasphemers, every day brings another demonstration against rising electricity and gas prices and the pernicious effects of “load-shedding.” There are, in other words, many other potent narratives available to those in Pakistan who seek to change the cultural and political landscape. Vigilante or terrorist violence cannot be the last word in this discourse, and history itself cannot remain silent.

[RajeshA]

Gagan ji,
that is exactly what I too think.

Of course, the fact that Chinese eat pork will not sit too well with Islamists, but it is a question of priorities. The Islamists would be in war with so many others, from Israel, to India, to the whole West, to Filipinos, to Thai, etc. And the Chinese will ensure that these wars go on for ever, thereby ensuring that the question of Chinese eating pork never really becomes the focus for the Islamists, especially with the Chinese giving political, military and even some financial support to the Islamists.

Rajesh ji frankly I disagree here. IMHO if we put real world management techniques to islamists then we are making the same mistakes that unkil is making today. Which sane person would have taken on the might of the soviet bear when it was a superpower with 20K plus nukes enough to anihilate entire planet many times over. Which school of management would have bet on Tanzania Kenya, USS Cole, Twin Towers etc. Islamists are hydra headed monsters they will never work towards "a plan" its like that raging bull in the spanish festival which will run toward any one any time. No one is safe not even the hand that feeds it. They will take on arap kings , cheeni commies and capitalist west at the same time and would still have time to poke at baniya dhoti. Its never going to complete any task and move to next.

Brad Goodman ji, feel free to disagree.

Except for the Uyghurs who have been fighting against the Chinese, based mainly on ethnic differences, I am not really aware of much friction amongst the Chinese and the Muslims, which has registered in the Pan-Islamic consciousness raising animosity in the Ummah against the Chinese.

I am also not aware of any deliberate movement in Pakistan to "malign" the Chinese. The pro-China propaganda of the establishment - "the taller than mountains and deeper than the oceans friendship" stuff, has made a mark not only on the pro-establishment Pakistanis but on all sorts of Pakistanis - Islamists included, even though Baitullah may have seen useful to kidnap a few Chinese for his interests.

So using examples of how Pakistanis have treated the Americans and projecting them onto China is I think a little bit of wishful thinking. Islam and Europe (incl. America) have a very long and often bitter relationship. So there is some background and context to Pakistan's treatment of America. Does China and the Muslim World have a similar relationship? So why the generalization? Why the one-size fits all?

Today the Muslims are 1.57 billion strong. I don't see any reason to underestimate the potential of such an ideology to spread. I don't see any reason to think of Islamists as brainless barbarians, or as some disease without any direction and shrewd leadership. I am pretty sure that the Islamists would hit out at China too if it were in their interest, but I still have to see a good argument explaining to me what that interest might be, and why it would supersede the interest of the Islamists to keep the Chinese in good humor, letting them help the Islamists in their wars.

[Sriman]

Someone had posted a youtube video of an armed robbery at an ATM in Kraachi a while back. Since then youtube keeps recommending videos about robberies in Karachi. Things must be pretty dire for the mango peepals there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2b9Xvp23s0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PH7R5m-P ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXGWjFdt ... re=related

[Anujan]

Whether Islamists come to power or not, India-Pakistan relationship will be the same. It is Pa'stan's relationship with the world that will change.

The reason India-Pak relationship is flushed down the pakistan is because the disagreement is inherently structural and has existed (and worsened) since the time of partition. There was Jinnah on the one hand who believed in a small select elite "guiding" mango abduls while cutting deals with the British, and on the other hand there was Gandhi's stunning achievement -- of mobilizing the mango abduls againt the British, enlightening the abduls and vesting the destiny of the country with the abduls.

This mango abdul vs TFTA struggle is what has been going on since partition. First round of struggle, mango abduls and TFTA decided to go their seperate ways and partition the country. Second round of struggle, the SDREs & mango abduls of the east decided to partition again and go their own way. This is the third round of struggle waged within Pakistan. The difference between the first, second and third round being that in the first two rounds, the mango abduls were reasonably enlightened so had some hopes of building decent countries (India & Bangladesh). In the third round, the abduls have been converted into yahoos through brainwashing.

It is essentially a struggle between concentration of power and devolution of power. From this inherent contradiction comes various struggles. Every one of the struggle from Pakistan can be traced to some "royalty". First Cashmere, why Cashmere? Because it is the source of rivers that irrigate the lands of the Feudals. So you have the Royalty of Feudals (and their new form of being "politicians" these days). Next is "Bleeding India through a thousand cuts". Why? Because Paki army wants to "avenge" 1971. This is the royalty of the Army (and their numerous land holdings. Their latest scheme being holding "exercises" in vast tracts of profitable land in Punjab/Sindh near canals, and then taking the land over & dividing them up among jernails once the "exercise" is done). Next come the Mullahs who have been rudely interrupted in their wet dream of converting and lording over all of India.

Throughout its existence, these three power centers have co-operated and collaborated to keep the mango abdul suppressed, while looting the land and making Mullah sandwiches. Now is the time when the real foot soldiers are being empowered.

The foot soldier yahoos will give the lampost to the Army, politicians and "wayward" mullahs and wont know when to stop. They will train & send people to China, India, Europe and Umreeka.....in return for the world cutting off aid and starving them to death, liberating Baluchistan and bombing Punjab to smithereens. Pakistan will become another Somalia -- this is the only logical solution.

Will India have the occasional train blasts in Mumbai? Yes. Will Pakistan say that it is a RAW conspiracy hatched with CIA & Mossad? no. Instead the abduls will gloat. Same difference.

The time when Pakistan could have been made "moderate & enlightened" is all long gone.

[Pranav]

The Islamist will not be able to rise if the TSPA/RAPE can unite the Jehadis under the India threat. In the past few years, the inaction by India, has in some ways, helped direct the Jehadi ire back into the TSP establishment.

Actually the TSPA is Islamist in the sense of Zia, Hamid Gul etc. The days of the clipped Brit accent and the ramrod posture which made western journalists swoon are almost over. Kayani is the son of an NCO, iirc.

[shiv]

I think it is high time some consensus is reached on who is "Islamist".

As an example I will quote the Bengaluru Muslim nurse who leaves home in a niqab (total 400% cover burqa- face also covered - only eyes seen) gets on the bus, reaches hospital in that costume and then changes to the nursing uniform - which in most hospitals has changed to a unisex trousers and shirt, works during the day, dons her niqab in the evening and goes back home.

For my Indian American cousin, absent from India for 20 years the women in niqabs on the street is a worrying sign of imminent takeover by islamists. For me it is nothing of the sort. The Muslim area where the niqab clad woman lives even has a BJP corporator. Islamism in this instance is a perception and my perception differs from that of my cousin.

A lot of noise is made in this mealy mouthed world about "freedom". In a video I have linked earlier the BBC reporter talks of how Muslim women are not allowed their traditional dress in the workplace- ergo China is "not free" unlike my Unkil Amreeka where everyone is free. On the other hand you have France making rules about who should wear what, a USA that has social restriction on the headgear that can be worn although there is no formal ban AFAIK.

Using the burqa/niqab as a sign of Islamism is a strawman because there is a vast difference between dress code and soosai bummer. France takes the attitude that dress code = possible soosai. India takes the attitude that dress code does not necessarily mean soosai bummer. "Who is right, India or France?" is a different issue. India has a different take from other countries. The idea that Indians can have a different view is not often accepted easily by a lot of Indians - especially if one is conditioned to automatically accepting views that are commonplace in Europe or Amreeka. Many educated Indians mistake an Indian viewpoint as one that has not been exposed to the wide world and needs correction and "eye opening" by travelling. Indian means blinkered. Western means "aware" and worldly wise.

Not trying to do an equal equal - but it is necessary to pisko here. An old brahmin uncle of a friend of mine was in town recently. He is a retired doc from Florida, Amreeka. He is now 73 and has written a book in Kannada which he came to release in Bangalore the town of his birth. I saw the man some months ago on the street near his house. He was without a shirt, wearing a dhoti - his forehead adorned with vibhuti , sacred thread across his chest, barefoot - walking to the house of a neighbor who keeps cows - to feed the cows. His appearance made me smile because it was a throwback to perhaps the 1920s or so. With modern girls in tank-tops and boys in jeans - this man was an anachronism. But he was merely living out what he could not do for 45 years in America. I am certain that the US has no restriction on wearing a dhoti and going about shirtless covered in holy ash. But few Hindoos have the guts to go that way on the street in the US because there is a social restriction on doing that and one has to break social codes to be that way.

Freedom in India pays as little attention to the half-naked Brahmin as it pays to the niqab clad woman or the jeans and tank-top clad teenager. Personal dress preferences are not made into a huge issue. With Islamism being confused with dress code by stupid westerners - it is no surprise that people cannot differentiate between a Sikh and an Ayatollah. And this from a sophisticated "worldly wise" nation.

Someone said a billion plus Muslims are not stupid. Darn right they are not stupid. They too visit the US, France, KSA and India. And they observe and understand attitudes. While we are busy not underestimating the Chinese, how about not underestimating India?

[brihaspati]

abhishek_sharma wrote
It is very interesting that people here try to rationalize the policies of US govt w.r.t. Pakistan by using terms/phrases like "India made her irrelevant", "quid-pro-quo", "understandable", "context" etc. (Some have even seen fairness in Kissinger in 1970s. ) I guess it is all maaya onlee. We should not worry too much about it. Next time a 26/11 happens, and we are restrained due to these policies, we should act like a forward-looking country and not think about "sunk cost". Pure bliss.

Such rationalizations are the first signs of losing all sense of "right" and "wrong", a value-less bliss where no decisions have to be taken, no sides need to be chosen, doing something and not doing that something are equivalent - and everything, shame, shamelessness, justice, injustice, legitimacy -illegitimate - everything are exchangeable commodities, possibly with a monetary price. Like so many limbs torn by an explosion == 100,000 dollars, or perhaps rupees if you are patriotic. Moreover this is all high-falutin philosophisizing, and pontificating, perhaps at best giving in to "emotion". Real people need to get a life and smell the coffee, perhaps smell rupees.

The first time I heard "get a life, smell the coffee - its all about money" was when as a teenager I had chanced upon a sale of a girl somewhere in a great city of liberal Marxist values and oh-so-intellectual traditions. I was prevented from "hurting myself" by seasoned politicians, who had to deal with the "realities of life" and could not afford to be "emotional" about such trivial things - at least in private. I was told that it all had "financial" causes and reasons. From then on he met with strange accidents until there was an "unfortunate accident" in which the seller accidentally lost a "lot" so that at least the biz had at least one less seller. Since then whenever I am shown the "financial" justification for commoditization of all "values", I remember that "seller", and wish that similar unfortunate accidents could be arranged for them too.

This is the hole through which civilizations get destroyed - because they begin to see everything in terms of monetary prices. A life, many lives, limbs, honour, tears, ideals and culture - all are tradeable assets as long as the "get a life"'ers can haggle a good price for it. When people begin to put a monetary price on the cost of what Pak has caused to India, or that it is "natural" for the USA to behave in certain ways that affects India, ultimately supports and justifies what Pak and USA has done and is doing.

But with respect to the previous discussion about China, this has another insight for us. After all the Paki Muslims at the top of Paki society are mostly Hindu or Buddhist SDRE elite who converted to save their precious skin, land and power. They are therefore carrying the same character traits as pseudo-secular Hindu elite of modern India - and given the right price they would also readily sell themselves and their countrymen. Question is how much is China really willing to spend to buy the Paki elite and the PA, how much net profit they hope to make? Sunk costs need not be sunk costs - for China must also factor in the fact that every bit they spend in strengthening Paki capacity to bite or support biting through economic development and infrastructure - can one day be used against China itself to support Jihadi ambition to expand into Muslim China. Whether a Turkish PM says anything or not that ambition to expand will never go away.

China will be a most reluctant developer of general foundations of Pak.

Further, Paki leaders were always Islamists - from even before its formal foundation as a supposedly independent country.

[Cosmo_R]

@Shiv ^^^

"But few Hindoos have the guts to go that way on the street in the US because there is a social restriction on doing that and one has to break social codes to be that way. "

That and the fact that US neighbors who keep cows are few and far between. Coupled with with the windchill factor impacting testimonials loosely draped with dhoti, probably a seminal moment

[Airavat]

US President Barack Obama’s Senior Adviser David Lipton, who is currently in Pakistan, assured Islamabad of cooperation in establishing the Reconstruction Opportunity Zones (ROZs) of flood-hit areas in Punjab and Sindh. A bill regarding the establishment of ROZs is still pending with the US Congress but it is expected to be tabled before the newly elected Congress by March, according to Lipton. It has been learnt that a foreign investment to the tune of $1.5 billion is expected with the construction of these zones, officials said.

Published in The Express Tribune, January 30th, 2011.

[Anujan]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/ja ... m-children

Pakistan begins assault on polio with vaccinations for 32 million children: Zardari launches emergency drive to safeguard under-fives after virus infection rates in Pakistan rise by 65%

Between Taliban attacks and US drone strikes, vaccination is impossible in many areas. Fighters have killed health workers, and conservative mullahs have denounced the vaccine as part of a western conspiracy to sterilise Muslim children.

a Pashtun tribesman, recently confronted health workers seeking to enter his home. "You told me she's never going to recover. So what's the point of anyone coming in?" he shouted angrily.

He says he has given up on modern medicine; his faith is now only in God. Nobody could see Mariam, he explained, because a preacher had ordered him to sequester her in the house for 40 days

[shiv]

@Shiv ^^^

"But few Hindoos have the guts to go that way on the street in the US because there is a social restriction on doing that and one has to break social codes to be that way. "

That and the fact that US neighbors who keep cows are few and far between. Coupled with with the windchill factor impacting testimonials loosely draped with dhoti, probably a seminal moment

There's always an excuse and a rationalization isn't there? This man lived his life and built his outdoor swimming pool in Florida - but that is OT.

[Dipanker]

I think it is high time some consensus is reached on who is "Islamist".

As an example I will quote the Bengaluru Muslim nurse who leaves home in a niqab (total 400% cover burqa- face also covered - only eyes seen) gets on the bus, reaches hospital in that costume and then changes to the nursing uniform - which in most hospitals has changed to a unisex trousers and shirt, works during the day, dons her niqab in the evening and goes back home.

For my Indian American cousin, absent from India for 20 years the women in niqabs on the street is a worrying sign of imminent takeover by islamists. For me it is nothing of the sort. The Muslim area where the niqab clad woman lives even has a BJP corporator. Islamism in this instance is a perception and my perception differs from that of my cousin.

A lot of noise is made in this mealy mouthed world about "freedom". In a video I have linked earlier the BBC reporter talks of how Muslim women are not allowed their traditional dress in the workplace- ergo China is "not free" unlike my Unkil Amreeka where everyone is free. On the other hand you have France making rules about who should wear what, a USA that has social restriction on the headgear that can be worn although there is no formal ban AFAIK.

Using the burqa/niqab as a sign of Islamism is a strawman because there is a vast difference between dress code and soosai bummer. France takes the attitude that dress code = possible soosai. India takes the attitude that dress code does not necessarily mean soosai bummer. "Who is right, India or France?" is a different issue. India has a different take from other countries. The idea that Indians can have a different view is not often accepted easily by a lot of Indians - especially if one is conditioned to automatically accepting views that are commonplace in Europe or Amreeka. Many educated Indians mistake an Indian viewpoint as one that has not been exposed to the wide world and needs correction and "eye opening" by travelling. Indian means blinkered. Western means "aware" and worldly wise.

Not trying to do an equal equal - but it is necessary to pisko here. An old brahmin uncle of a friend of mine was in town recently. He is a retired doc from Florida, Amreeka. He is now 73 and has written a book in Kannada which he came to release in Bangalore the town of his birth. I saw the man some months ago on the street near his house. He was without a shirt, wearing a dhoti - his forehead adorned with vibhuti , sacred thread across his chest, barefoot - walking to the house of a neighbor who keeps cows - to feed the cows. His appearance made me smile because it was a throwback to perhaps the 1920s or so. With modern girls in tank-tops and boys in jeans - this man was an anachronism. But he was merely living out what he could not do for 45 years in America. I am certain that the US has no restriction on wearing a dhoti and going about shirtless covered in holy ash. But few Hindoos have the guts to go that way on the street in the US because there is a social restriction on doing that and one has to break social codes to be that way.

Freedom in India pays as little attention to the half-naked Brahmin as it pays to the niqab clad woman or the jeans and tank-top clad teenager. Personal dress preferences are not made into a huge issue. With Islamism being confused with dress code by stupid westerners - it is no surprise that people cannot differentiate between a Sikh and an Ayatollah. And this from a sophisticated "worldly wise" nation.

Someone said a billion plus Muslims are not stupid. Darn right they are not stupid. They too visit the US, France, KSA and India. And they observe and understand attitudes. While we are busy not underestimating the Chinese, how about not underestimating India?

Sorry I had to quote the whole post and I have only one word for it, Excellent!

[arun]

Leader of the US House subcommittee on terrorism and non-proliferation, Ed Royce, terms the Islamic Republic of Pakistan as “Failing”:

Terrorism panel chairman: Washington hasn't 'come to grips' with Pakistan as a failing state

[partha]

I think it is high time some consensus is reached on who is "Islamist".

As an example I will quote the Bengaluru Muslim nurse who leaves home in a niqab (total 400% cover burqa- face also covered - only eyes seen) gets on the bus, reaches hospital in that costume and then changes to the nursing uniform - which in most hospitals has changed to a unisex trousers and shirt, works during the day, dons her niqab in the evening and goes back home.

For my Indian American cousin, absent from India for 20 years the women in niqabs on the street is a worrying sign of imminent takeover by islamists. For me it is nothing of the sort. The Muslim area where the niqab clad woman lives even has a BJP corporator. Islamism in this instance is a perception and my perception differs from that of my cousin.

A lot of noise is made in this mealy mouthed world about "freedom". In a video I have linked earlier the BBC reporter talks of how Muslim women are not allowed their traditional dress in the workplace- ergo China is "not free" unlike my Unkil Amreeka where everyone is free. On the other hand you have France making rules about who should wear what, a USA that has social restriction on the headgear that can be worn although there is no formal ban AFAIK.

Using the burqa/niqab as a sign of Islamism is a strawman because there is a vast difference between dress code and soosai bummer. France takes the attitude that dress code = possible soosai. India takes the attitude that dress code does not necessarily mean soosai bummer. "Who is right, India or France?" is a different issue. India has a different take from other countries. The idea that Indians can have a different view is not often accepted easily by a lot of Indians - especially if one is conditioned to automatically accepting views that are commonplace in Europe or Amreeka. Many educated Indians mistake an Indian viewpoint as one that has not been exposed to the wide world and needs correction and "eye opening" by travelling. Indian means blinkered. Western means "aware" and worldly wise.

Not trying to do an equal equal - but it is necessary to pisko here. An old brahmin uncle of a friend of mine was in town recently. He is a retired doc from Florida, Amreeka. He is now 73 and has written a book in Kannada which he came to release in Bangalore the town of his birth. I saw the man some months ago on the street near his house. He was without a shirt, wearing a dhoti - his forehead adorned with vibhuti , sacred thread across his chest, barefoot - walking to the house of a neighbor who keeps cows - to feed the cows. His appearance made me smile because it was a throwback to perhaps the 1920s or so. With modern girls in tank-tops and boys in jeans - this man was an anachronism. But he was merely living out what he could not do for 45 years in America. I am certain that the US has no restriction on wearing a dhoti and going about shirtless covered in holy ash. But few Hindoos have the guts to go that way on the street in the US because there is a social restriction on doing that and one has to break social codes to be that way.

Freedom in India pays as little attention to the half-naked Brahmin as it pays to the niqab clad woman or the jeans and tank-top clad teenager. Personal dress preferences are not made into a huge issue. With Islamism being confused with dress code by stupid westerners - it is no surprise that people cannot differentiate between a Sikh and an Ayatollah. And this from a sophisticated "worldly wise" nation.

Someone said a billion plus Muslims are not stupid. Darn right they are not stupid. They too visit the US, France, KSA and India. And they observe and understand attitudes. While we are busy not underestimating the Chinese, how about not underestimating India?

Shivji, this is what I wanted to say in the Islamophobia thread but could not express it in right words. You have put it wonderfully. People should be free to wear whatever they want. State should not have a say in it! If a woman resists the family and mullah pressure and says no to burqa, that's where the state should pitch in and protect her.

[kenop]

Pak's misadventure at the Hague

This was one side-effect Pakistan had clearly not factored in while dragging India to the International Court of Arbitration over the Kishenganga hydel power project in Jammu and Kashmir. During the first sitting of the court at The Hague recently, Pakistan was taken aback to learn that the total expenditure, as estimated by the court, was around 3.5 million euros (about Rs 21 crore), to be shared equally between the two countries. With its economy in tatters, Pakistan sheepishly protested. While asking the two countries to pool in the money, the court observed that the unspent amount would be returned. But there was little respite for Pakistan which was informed, informally, by the court staff that the estimates were actually conservative and the litigation might just cost even more than that.

[shiv]

Terrorism panel chairman: Washington hasn't 'come to grips' with Pakistan as a failing state

Naturally. The US is not interested in those aspects of Pakistan that are failing. All of Pakistan is not failing.

For example the Pakistani army is not yet "failing" as a coherent institution. Vast areas in Pakistani cities, controlled and policed by the army are safe for the liberal elite of Pakistan who can stage their fashion shows and performances of "Vagina Monologues" and speak of gay rights. American expatriates slot right into this circle and have a great time in those walled communities. A thriving private economy fuels the spread of cellphones and private TV channels. After all, 40 million educated Pakistanis, predominantly in the cities of Punjab and Sindh managing their lives and security deftly amounts to a small European country in wealth and facilities - the outside be damned.

So what is failing in Pakistan?

1) Governance is failing. Rule of law and might is right and "jiski lathi uski bhains" are one and the same.
2) The economy is failing.
3) Education and literacy are failing to keep up with the burgeoning population
4) Birth rates are not falling at the rate required to slow population growth
5) Control over vast areas of land is non existent. The staging of Vagina monologues - proudly advertised by liberals in cities is impossible over most of Pakistan.

Tie these data points in with the fact that wealth and literacy are concentrated in the urban areas (towns and cities) who have only about 30% of the population. Poverty, deprivation, lack of security, joblessness and hunger are a feature of the rural areas that house 70% of the population.

There are in effect two Pakistans. The urban, wealthy educated Pakistan of the cities and the illiterate, jobless jihadi rural Pakistan. The elite rule the former and are losing their grip over the latter who were traditionally under the yoke of the elite in old feudal Pakistan. The new Islamic Pakistan has more rural than urban, more illiterate that literate, more jobless than employed, more proudly Muslim than feudal subservience. The former is described as "vibrant Pakistan. the latter is the "failing Pakistan". The latter has 140 million people and covers 60% -70% of Pakistan's land area. The elite have never been bothered about them and the US has always been with their caste, the liberal elite and army.

[arun]

X Posted from the India Nuclear News and Discussion thread.

The Washington Post reports that the Islamic Republic of Pakistan’s nuclear weapon arsenal is larger than India’s:

After years of approximate weapons parity, experts said, Pakistan has now edged ahead of India, its nuclear-armed rival.

URL here:

New estimates put Pakistan's nuclear arsenal at more than 100

[arun]

More on the story of UK Peer originating in the Islamic Republic of Pakistan on ascribing the sexually predatory activities of those sharing his origins and who target minor Caucasian female children, to marriages to first cousins:

Asian men are targeting white girls for 'fun' because of unhappy arranged marriages, says Muslim peer

Meanwhile Anne Cryer, who has been vociferous in the past about Muslims originating in the Islamic Republic of Pakistan marrying :First Cousins” had this to say:

Ex-MP backs Muslim peer over 'girl grooming' by Asian men