Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2010

[anupmisra]

So the Pakis might get their Egyptian dawn!

So "Denial" is not just a river in Egypt?

[anupmisra]

IMO, these articles are to get some response from India on our arsenal. This is classic Psy-ops to scare the SDRE dhotis....

Or scare the west into blindly financing (or hoisting) a sinking ship. "100? OMG! OMG!! OMG!!! God forbid if one of those 100 nukes falls into the wrong hands" thinking.

[RajeshA]

@RajeshA, et al -- on the issue of whether China will be able to step in effectively as a replacement for US as the chief handler of the terrorist state.

I would like to point out one dimension which has been missed in the context of the discussion: that of Indian response in both cases.

To explain what the discussion has focused on how effective China will be in that role, its constraints, possible new issues, handling of current ones etc etc. However the discussion assumes that Indian response to the very hostile actions by the combine will be same whether its TSPA+US or CPC+TSPA. A reflection perhaps of our level of confidence in GoI especially given the stellar record of current administration. However, I think that is being a wee bit pessimistic. Firstly India is still a democracy, and there is no reason to give up hope on future govts. Secondly even a WKK level govt like the current ones may respond different if US is replaced by China.

Let us examine some factors which can lead to different response. (note this is a purely objective list, I am not making a value judgment here)
1) Absence of NRIs in a large number (with a large number of MUTUs) to influence domestic and institutional behavior.
2) Absence of a large middle class linked to trade benefits with China.
3) Absence of past military conflict coloring views with US.
4) Presence of current border conflicts.
5) Geo-graphical distance, making any potential response easier or harder.
6) Presence of levers to influence affairs of a country (trade routes, local hostile populations)
7) Historical memory of govt to govt contacts being helpful or otherwise.

So basically how well TSP manages to get along with its latest master, also depends on the pressures put on the relationship, of which Indian pressures IMVHO are likely to be quite different.

======================

For the record on first issue of how well Chinese will handle Pak; I think

1) There is a difference between fathering and guiding a concept since inception and me-too piggy backing on a established concept.
2) A difference in physical build-up playing on the piskology of a race obsessed with TFTAness.
3) The distance allowing a player to play a "neutral" role and avoid blowback.

So clearly it is not difficult to see which view I subscribe to.

I don't think, that is really in India's interests!

Rajesh, what I have stated is not what I wish or even do not wish. I am only saying what is a possibility.

Why? Serious question?

Why would a blatantly Islamist (as opposed to the current mask) be any worse? What factors are likely to be worse for India?

Sanku ji,
I'll try to answer that question, though I am not sure how well I'll manage:

1) The Shackled RAPE Theory - Just as Indians have been Macaulayized by the British, so too were the Pakistanis, especially the RAPEs, who happened to be influential power brokers in Pakistan, though by no means the sole power centers. Also the various Pakistani dictators were also in awe of American power. So even as the RAPEs hated the Indians, the Hindus, at least there had considerations of appearing civilized. I don't think, one should underestimate this consideration, for we know from history that barbarity can be much much more brutal. So just the need of the RAPE to be able to interact with Westerners, to travel to the West, to appear noble and be recognized by the West as the Nobility meant a lot for the RAPEs. This psychological need for recognition helped somewhat to stay the hand of barbarity and acted as a leash.

This leash has been progressively been getting looser and sometime in the future this is about to break completely. The Macaulayism Spell is wearing off in Pakistan. People are looking for Recognition more and more through Islamic Identity and Doctrine. So even though the whiskey-swirling Pakistani dictators portrayed themselves for their compatriots as Ghazis, out on their Ghazwas, their bark was worse than their bite. So one fear is that we could get really pious Ghazis out on Ghazwa-e-Hinds with nukes in power in Pakistan. We have to consider that instead of Jihadi terror in India being used as a tool of foreign policy, it becomes a way of life in Pakistan, something just as normal and required as brushing one's teeth or as praying 5 times a day per scripture.

It is not a question of any change in principle but rather a change in degree.

2) The American Leash Theory - Americans have been big financial and military contributors to Pakistan. Since year 2000, India's relations with USA have also been improving. In fact, India going out of its way to appease USA especially on Pakistan does not sit too well with many, including me. So even as the Pakistanis have received much India-centric military weaponry, and even though there have been terrorist attacks against India, one might like to think that it could have been worse were America not looking over Pakistani shoulders.

To be frank, I am not so sure how far the above case is true, but the GoI acts as if it were.

3) Nature of the Chinese Patronage - Some are saying that when America stops financing and arming Pakistan, China would have to step in, in an equal measure to what the Americans have been serving the Pakis, as if that was needed. There can be Chinese investments in Pakistan or to some extent even some financial help, but the Chinese need not do it.

In the 80s the Americans gave substantial support to the Pakis to direct the Jihad against Soviet Union in Afghanistan. Then it was given willingly because of the importance of the task. After 911 too America stepped up its aid to Pakistan. This time however Pakistan is being asked to do something which goes against its own perceived national interests.

Would the Chinese demand something from Pakistan in which its own heart would not be in it? May be to some extent it could be to clamp down on the Uyghurs training in the tribal areas. The Pakistanis are not emotionally attached to the Uyghurs and would happily do it. Even the Pakislamists could oblige by coercing the Uyghurs to tone down their Jihad against China. I don't consider this a make-or-break issue. Pakistan's first love is to destroy India. This Pakistan would do even without any Chinese encouragement. So it would be the Chinese who would be helping out Pakistan to fulfill Pakistan's own agenda. So the costs to China would remain low, as everything China wants Pakistan to do, Pakistan would be more than willing to do it of its own volition. China can provide the support to Pakistan which can make Pakistan's terror against India, its support for Islamic insurgencies, a hundred times deadlier for Indians.

4) India's Equation with Pakistan's Patron - If the Americans have demanded anything from India for keeping the leash on Pakistan, if it has been on any leash at all, then that something may be India allowing USA a free hand in Pakistan, or some talks, or some talks about talks, or may be some defense orders.

Once China becomes Pakistan's main patron, and if India is forced to go to the patron to request the patron to put a leash on Pakistan, then our goose would truly have been cooked. We have a big border dispute with China, where China is almost claiming the whole of our Northeast. India simply cannot be put to blackmail or be forced to make a concessions to a party with whom we have a serious dispute, a country which attacked India once.

So the price for holding back Pakistan without attacking it directly increases manifold.

5) Potential for Trouble-Making - Unencumbered by any American influence in Pakistan, China would be tempted to trust the Pakistanis even more and invest in the relationship even more. This may lead to China and Pakistan increasing the level of encouragement for insurgencies and terrorism in India even more. India's North and Northeast could be virtually be in flames.

6) Full Islamic Identity - With the RAPE and TFTAs in power, if India goes to war against Pakistan or rather is forced into a war with Pakistan, it looks more like two countries fighting a war on territory and for political reasons. The Pan-Islamic character of the war would be subdued. But what if Pakistan is an Islamist country in some theocratic sense, a country where Mullahs rule.

Then it would be all the more harder to present this war to the Muslim World as a political conflict. It is far more likely they will accept Pakistani propaganda and see it as Jihad against the Kufr India. That could have far bigger consequences for India and Indians politically, economically, security-wise in West Asia.

7) Pull on Indian Muslims - Till now the majority of Indian Muslims have managed to resist Pakistani propaganda and not joined in in subverting India. Can we be so sure, that once Pakistan becomes an Islamist theocracy, that the pull on the Indian Muslims will not increase?

[A_Gupta]

One big difference between Egypt and Pakistan - in Egypt the army is a conscripted army - i.e., every adult male is supposed to put in some time of service. So the army is the people, or has much closer ties to the people than the Pakistani army.

[Lalmohan]

Rajesh-ji, your rationale is good - which is why it is of the utmost importance that a secular government takes root in Egypt and sets the tone for the rest of the emerging Arab world in the 2010's and 2020's. In such a world, Pakistan is less able to play the islamist card than if the brotherhood or other overtly islamist parties took over. The RAPE may have reached a point of no return, and we may soon see them dangling from lamposts in downtown Isloo

[shiv]

Rajesh a couple of thoughts based on two quotes above:

The Pakistanis are not emotionally attached to the Uyghurs and would happily do it. Even the Pakislamists could oblige by coercing the Uyghurs to tone down their Jihad against China.

Pull on Indian Muslims - Till now the majority of Indian Muslims have managed to resist Pakistani propaganda and not joined in in subverting India. Can we be so sure, that once Pakistan becomes an Islamist theocracy, that the pull on the Indian Muslims will not increase?

I will leave out my prime objection that "Pakistanis" are not one single entity but are multiple factions among whom Islam has been utilised to encourage hatred against non Islamic India. That hatred would possible not have been so intense if it had not been fostered and encouraged.

However, now that Islam is the tool to hate India - there is an opportunity open to India. And that opportunity is to encourage the pious Islamic Pakistanis to realise that their Muslim brothers in Xinjiang are suffering at the hands of pig eaters. Thsi is an opportunity. Not something that will inevitably happen. We need to make it happen. We must do everything possible to highlight the suppression of Muslims in Xinjiang. We have absolutely nothing to lose.

But this point apart I want to point out that if we assume that Pakistanis have no love for Uighurs, we cannot automatically assume in the same breath that Indian Muslims are attracted by an increasingly Islamic Pakistan. Islam is a tool for control and those Muslim mullahs of India who see an opportunity to control using Islam will respond to Islamists, but the vast mass who are to be controlled can be swayed in different ways. It is political naivete to think that Indian Muslims will somehow be attracted to an murderous Wahhabandi Pakistan and be willing to upset their own lives in India to support that cause. I have never agreed with such a contention and it has always been nothing more than a contention. It has been disproven every time and I am beginning to see it as a strawman argument. Pakistanis believed it would happen in 1965, later in the 80s and finally in 1999. It did not happen. We have been waiting for Indian Muslims top opt for Pakistan on BRF since 1997 or so. It is not happening. If it does not waddle and does not quack and looks like a cat it cannot be a duck.

In fact the logic is laughably naive. Assume that Islam wants to conquer India. If Islam wants to conquer India then it should not have exited India to form Pakistan. If Pakistan was formed to consolidate Islam and then take over India, then it means that Indian Muslims have been waiting patiently for 63 plus years for a Pakistani messiah to come and deliver them. But they are sitting right here in India and have not fought all that hard and they can see Pakistan sinking with their own eyes. Surely Muslims within India have a much better chance of conquering India than hoping for incompetent Pakis to become fully Islamist and deliver them. How much stupidity can we attribute to Indian Muslims before we begin stretching the bounds of credibility?

[Lalmohan]

shiv, agree with most of what you say - but w.r.t. your last para -

during the later (post 1857) anglo-afghan wars, the logic used by the 'afghans' and their northern indian muslim co-fighters was that:

1. the british kaafirs have destroyed the great mughal empire, ergo we are not pious enough and god has punished us (many of the muslim fighters in delhi and the doab were jihadis fighting for khilafat rather than freedom fighters fighting for azad hind)
2. resistance to the kaafirs must be organised in dar-ul-islam first where a 'base' can be built - hence coopting of the afghan tribes into the greater jihad
3. and then brought back to the dar-ul-harb (India)

this same idea has been circulating around the 'movement' for some time now - so it would not surprise me if many in the pakistani establishement(s) subscribe to this view. only now pakistan is the dar-ul-islam...

that still doesnt mean that Indian muslims will be attracted to this line of thinking though

[SSridhar]

Polarization and a Threatened Future - Edit in DT

It was a sad day in parliamentary history when some senators refused to offer fateha (prayer for the dead) for the soul of late Punjab Governor Salmaan Taseer. Senators of the Jamiat Ulema-e-Islam-Fazl (JUI-F) and Jamaat-e-Islami (JI) not only refused to offer fateha, some of them even walked out of the Senate. What came as the biggest surprise was the refusal of Senator Abdul Khaliq Pirzada of the Muttahida Qaumi Movement (MQM).

But, what happened when Abu Musab al Zarqawi, the dreaded Al Qaeda terrorist, was killed in Iraq in c. 2006 ? There was a move by a few MNAs (Members of the Pakistan National Assembly) to offer official condolence in the National Assembly itself. While that could not be done in the National Assembly, the provincial assembly of Punjab did offer Fateha (the first or opening surah of the Quran which is the central prayer of Islam and is used on all special occasions) to Zarqawi by cleverly clubbing it along with that of another non-descript person. In the Provincial assembly of NWFP it was very direct. A member asked for a fateha for Zarqawi and the Speaker allowed it.

However, in circa 2003, the clerics issued a fatwa saying that those Pakistani soldiers who died fighting the Taliban and the extremists in the NWFP region could not be considered as shaheeds and there could not be any fateha for them.

That is Pakistan. AoA.

[shiv]

Of course I am constrained to modify my own statement by pointing out that all Pakistanis are of Indian Muslim origin. Looking at it that way I must admit that Indian Muslims have been phenomenally stupid.

I don't know what they did to make Allah play with them that way but he certainly took half the subcontinent's Muslims and shoved a great big square rod up their backsides by putting them in Bangladesh and Pakistan under the control of a bunch of educated people who used Allah's own Islam to make the Muslims of Bangladesh and West Pakistan sink deeper and deeper into sh1t thinking that this would give them victory.

But if those moronic jackass former Indian Muslims of Pakistan develop any sense - they will realise how they have been led up the garden path by the English speaking elite and Army of Pakistan making them illiterate and poor dumbass American and Chinese slaves instead of just the plain vanilla dumb asses that they were in 1947.

[SSridhar]

But if those moronic jackass former Indian Muslims of Pakistan develop any sense - they will realise how they have been led up the garden path by the English speaking elite and Army of Pakistan making them illiterate and poor dumbass American and Chinese slaves instead of just the plain vanilla dumb asses that they were in 1947.

But, now they are being led along another garden path, that of more and stricter medieval Islam. Apparently, this will solve all problems.

[SSridhar]

Suicide bomb attack in Peshawar kills senior Police officer & 5 others.

[Sanku]

Overtly Islamist Pakistan

RajeshA ji; thank you for the response. I do however note that you have taken a stab primarily at the second question. So I assume that you do agree with the fact that a non US patron might change the Indian response. I do know that you have stated that it will complicate the appeasement process, however considering that we think that appeasement is a loosing game, the fact that India will be forced to take more direct response against the sponsors of TSP may be overall beneficial and further increase the cost to the sponsor. To that extent I consider the complication; +ve.

I do agree however that this will precipitate what is happening slowly to a fast pace, I do not think the degree will be more, it will just happen faster, but thats not necessarily worse, only quick.

Isn't it better that the problem is solved sooner rather than later?

[Brad Goodman]

Couple of thoughts on islamist take over in pakistan.

First is we really need to identify key players and their view backed by actions. I mean lets leave those hot air statements that were not backed by tangible actions for now. So we need to somehow link JI leaders and their anti India actions. I feel and may be I am wrong but JI is less rabid anti India than the TSPA. The reason is simple JI does not need anti India bogey for its reason d'etre. They can simply survive by pulling few suras and khilafat books. I remember few moons ago (somewhere during United Front Government) Fazl ur Rehman made a trip to India for some papiya zapiya sessions. His aniti India stance was much lesser than macho mushy who came a little earlier (I stand to be corrected if gurus have insight I have missed).

Second is RAPES always projected beating dhoti clad kaffir as a low hanging fruit for abduls. They were partially on the right track since in 80's pakis were doing better than the baniyas (least they created that illusion) their cricket team made baniya team wet their kaccha in sharjah and they were pinning down IA in punjab and kashmir and indian economy was in shambles. There was a sadistic happiness in seeing India suffer. My question is how much percentage of paki population really wanted to get to delhi and if it was so important how did they demonstrate that urge. Only indicators are kashmir day demonstrations attended by few thousand abduls and loose change that was deposited into coin box at every provision store. Major chunk of support was not from abduls but from ISI and TSPA that sustanined and nurtured that terrorism.

Third is we all have discussed Zia's islamism especially his pakistaniyat studies to death here. We all agree that post 1908's gen is rabidly anti hindu. But then the argument I have is the same boys (lets leave girls aside for now since they are less hypocrites) after bad mouthing hindus will go home switch on the TV set his abbu smuggled from dubai working as construction labor to tune into Zee or Star Plus to watch Madhuri/ Urmila/ Kareena/ Katrina yada yada try to copy styles and clothes from Khans and Akshay Kumar (was Amitabh till mid 90's). So I feel the analogy I can present here is same as what expatriates go through when they migrate from native countries in Asia / Africa to West. In west they keep sulking at the loose morals, consumerism and lack of values they find dear. At the same time they will not move back if they really care about all these things same time when they come for vacation they will bad mouth corruption, lack of infrastructure and too much western influence in their native country and they party goes on. These Islamists have perfected the art to look cool and to feel cool. So my point here is deep down how anti hindu / india is he really .

I feel their hatered for yahudi, amreeka and arap dictators trumps their ambition to get lal quila.

[arun]

The Islamic Republic of Pakistan certainly has a pis* poor record for being a welcoming place for foreign diplomats notwithstanding Pakistani protestations to the contrary that they are a nation peopled by those who have a great sense of hospitality.

A compilation of the attacks on foreign diplomats including those from fellow Islamic countries:

Overall, the US and other foreign diplomats have not had a very pleasant time in Pakistan since November 21, 1979 at least, when the US Embassy in Islamabad was set ablaze by enraged Pakistani students, who were infuriated over rumours that the US had bombed the Holy Masjid al-Haram at Mecca a day earlier. There actually had been a terrorist attack at Mecca, but the US was not involved in it as a Saudi Arabian Islamic zealot group had led a takeover of the Holy Mosque.

Iran’s Ayatollah Khomeini had then immediately claimed that Americans were behind the attack on Islam’s holiest place.

The US diplomats had survived by hiding in a reinforced area, though Marine Security Guard Steve Crowley and another American died in the attack. .................................

Just two years later on December 19, 1990, Sadeq Ganji, the then Iranian Consul General to Pakistan, was killed by militants for allegedly propagating the Shia sect’s ideology. It was then speculated that the assassination of Ganji was a revenge for the killing of a militant Haq Nawaz Jhangvi earlier that year.

Sadiq Ganji, accompanied by his companion Muhammad Mukarram, was fatally injured in front of the International Hotel at Upper Mall Lahore. His killer, who had fled the scene, was caught in an injured condition at the Mozang Chungi, the same place where US official Raymond Davis had shot two Pakistanis dead recently.

Much-feared extremist Riaz Basra was also implicated in this case and was tried in absentia.

In 1997, a few visiting Iranian Air Force cadets were gunned down in Islamabad.

On March 17, 2002, a US diplomat Barbara Green and her 17-year-old daughter had lost their lives, when a grenade was tossed into the International Protestant Church Islamabad during a church service. Five people were killed in this attack and 40 injured, mostly expatriates.

On June 14, 2002, an explosives-laden truck had detonated outside the US Consulate in Karachi, killing 12 Pakistanis and injuring 51.

On February 28, 2003, unknown gunmen attacked the US Embassy in Islamabad, killing two people.

On March 15, 2004, there was another attempt to blow up a stolen van in front of the consulate. When the police questioned the driver of the parked van he claimed that the van had broken down. The police investigated the van and discovered a large blue tank filled with nearly 200 gallons of liquid explosives hooked up to a timer and two detonators. The device was deactivated and the plot failed.

A Kazakh diplomat, Sapargali Aubakirov, was shot dead at his home in Islamabad on January 19, 2005. The deputy head of the Kazakh mission in Islamabad was found lying in a pool of blood at his house with a single gunshot wound to the head.

According to one newspaper report, the Central Asian diplomat was found sprawled on his sofa, with empty bottles of liquor and four partly eaten hamburgers lying on a nearby table.

According to The News/Jang, two Chinese men Hassan s/o Abdul Hamid and Mohammad Ibrahim s/o Abdullah were arrested in connection with this murder. The police had seized the diplomat’s cell phone and a pistol from the two arrested killers.

On March 2, 2006, just hours before the arrival of the then US President George Bush in Pakistan, a car bomb had exploded outside the US Consulate in Karachi, killing four people.

According to BBC News, David Foy, an American diplomat and three Pakistanis were among those who lost their lives in the incident. The bomb had left a two-metre crater in the car park of the Marriott Hotel and destroyed at least 10 cars. ...............................

In March 2008, a restaurant frequented by Westerners in Islamabad was bombed, killing one and seriously injuring several others, including four US diplomats.

In August 2008, the US Principal Officer in Peshawar was the target of an organised gun attack.

The Islamabad Marriott Hotel bombing, that occurred on September 20, 2008, killed at least five foreign nationals besides injuring 15 others. The majority of the casualties were Pakistanis though.

While two American military personnel and a Danish intelligence agent were killed, a US State Department employee had also gone missing and hence presumed dead. In addition, six Germans, four Britons and a Filipino receptionist from the hotel were among the injured foreigners.

The Czech ambassador to Pakistan, Dr. Ivo Zdarek, had also died in the ensuing fire along with his Vietnamese companion.

Although the Czech envoy had survived the initial blast, he died while helping in the rescue efforts aimed at saving those trapped inside the hotel.

A dump truck filled with explosives had detonated in front of the Marriott Hotel in Islamabad, killing at least 54, injuring at least 266 and leaving a 60-foot wide crater outside the hotel.

The Marriott attack had occurred just hours after President Asif Zardari had made his first speech to Parliament.

On November 12, 2009, gunmen shot dead Syed Abul Hasan, the spokesman for the Iranian consulate in Peshawar. The deceased was serving as Director Public Relations in the Iranian consulate. Chinese News Agency Xinhua reported that Hasan was fired upon at Gulbarg area of Peshawar.

On November 13, 2008, unidentified gunmen had abducted an Iranian diplomat, Hashmatullah Attarzadeh, after killing his security guard in Peshawar.

The kidnapping had occurred a day after an American aid worker and his local driver were shot dead in the troubled northwest city.

It is pertinent to note that in 2008, and as the US State Department has also pointed out, one Iranian and two Afghan diplomats, two Chinese engineers, and a Polish engineer were kidnapped in the Khyber Pakhtunkhwa province.

On April 5, 2010, an attack near the US Consulate in Peshawar had killed two consulate security guards and at least six others.....................

The News

[shiv]

Suicide bomb attack in Peshawar kills senior Police officer & 5 others.

Ah long time no opportunity..

Pakistan paindablast!

[arun]

For all the piousness inherent in naming itself the land of the pure, titling itself an Islamic Republic, claiming that it is an Ideological Muslim state and resultantly having laws that are straitlaced shariah compliant, the Islamic Republic of Pakistan does have a side that is rather seamy :

3 eunuchs raped ‘by wedding guests’

[Lalmohan]

arunji, why you take takleef at uncovered meat syndrome issues? it is permissable

[A_Gupta]

Of course I am constrained to modify my own statement by pointing out that all Pakistanis are of Indian Muslim origin. Looking at it that way I must admit that Indian Muslims have been phenomenally stupid.

Well, some of them are claiming that partition was forced on them by the cunning bania; "Islam khatrey main hai" was a bargaining chip onlee.

Fact is that the historical experience of the IMs in different regions of the country are different. Especially, in Punjab, the Mussalmans had a long period of coddling by the British as the martial races, sword arm, etc.. The Elite UP IMs had a historical memory of being a tiny minority lording it over everyone else. IMs in the coastal regions have memories of trade and/or fleeing persecution from Islamic lands to the west, and so on.

[shiv]

But, now they are being led along another garden path, that of more and stricter medieval Islam. Apparently, this will solve all problems.

Sridhar. I have been "thinking about this" of late and am beginning to wonder about certain things.

It's like this. If you divide Pakistan into two groups - one group is the the urban Pakis - a few rich, but many urban poor in one group. Also in this group are the servants/workers of the urban group in feudal landholdings. This group have had access to TV even in the past, videos, Bollywood and what is described by Pakis as a "moderate outlook". Of course they hated India, but nevertheless this group would believe that Taliban was excessive.

The second group is predominantly rural, predominantly tribal, predominantly Pashtun or Baluchi, but to some extent the rural poor in the hinterland of Pakjab and Sindh - far removed from the development of the urban Packee. This group's lifestyle is already one where the woman stays at home and has kids. The girls do not go to school. By and large they have not had TV or other "development". For these people "Talibanization" is normal life,not an abnormal imposition. It is a continuation of their normal lifestyle.

All these years, group 2, mired in underdevelopment and poverty have been told that their lifestyle is good, true Islam, to be preserved because the kafirs don't have it this good. This group produced the sons, martyrs and heroes fighting India and the Soviets.

Now suddenly, after 9-11, they are being told that it is all wrong. That their fighting and sacrifice was not necessary and that spreading their lifestyle to others is not a good idea. This group, group 2, have always lived like the Taliban and being told that it is wrong is an assault on their way of life. So the real fight in Pakistan seems to be between Group 2 and group 1.

The RAPE and army, the leaders of group 1 who preached that radical islam was very good, are now in a spot because the people of Pakistan who were poor and of a "radical nature" anyway are now up in arms asking what is wrong with their way - especially since their way was praised and encouraged as long as they were fighting the Soviets and Hindoo Kafirs. Why is their lifestyle wrong in Islamabad? Why is it wrong in Waziristan? Or in Swat? Group 1 have no answer other than guns. Group 2 can only fight with soosai.

[JE Menon]

>>But, now they are being led along another garden path, that of more and stricter medieval Islam. Apparently, this will solve all problems.

Let's hope so. And ours too

[ASPuar]

Meanwhile, what in the World??

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/worl ... z1CdW8p6qm

US steps up pressure on Pak to release American diplomat
PTI, Jan 31, 2011, 09.07pm IST

ISLAMABAD: Amid a diplomatic row over the arrest of a US diplomat for gunning down two Pakistanis in Punjab's provincial capital Lahore, Pakistan President Asif Ali Zardari today said Washington should wait for the court's decision on the American national.

Zardari told a visiting delegation of American Congressmen, who raised the controversial issue with the president that it would be "prudent" to wait for the legal course in the country.

The president said he appreciated the concern of the Congressmen "but the matter was already before the courts".

"It would be prudent to wait for the legal course to be completed," Zardari was quoted as saying in a statement issued by his office here.

Pakistani authorities have rejected a US demand for the release of Raymond Davis, who was arrested after he shot and killed two youths whom he alleged were trying to rob him in a busy commercial area of Lahore on Thursday.

The Lahore High Court today sought a response from federal and provincial authorities to a petition that called for steps to ensure that Davis is not handed over to the US.

In the petition filed in the Lahore High Court, lawyer Saeed Zafar claimed efforts were underway to secure the release of the American and the government should be barred from giving him diplomatic immunity.

The American should be barred from leaving Pakistan by including his name in the Exit Control List, Zafar said.

Chief Justice Ijaz Ahmed Chaudhry, who heard the petition, issued notices to the federal Attorney General and the Assistant Advocate General of Punjab province, asking them to appear in court tomorrow and to submit their responses.

The police in Lahore registered a case against Davis for illegally carrying a weapon. The US national was armed with a Glock 9mm pistol.

Punjab Chief Minister Shahbaz Sharif told reporters this morning that the federal government and the Foreign Office would decide whether Davis was entitled to diplomatic immunity.

"The matter is to be decided by the Foreign Office while the provincial government is responsible for the investigation (into the shooting incident according to the) law of the land," Sharif said.

All decisions regarding the American would be taken in light of the law and the Constitution and no compromise will be made in the investigation or legal matters, he said.

In a related development, Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani's office denied reports in a section of the media that the government had decided to give immunity to Davis and was pressuring authorities to free the American.

A spokesperson for the Prime Minister's Secretariat described the news reports as "incorrect and fabricated".

The spokesperson said the federal government is "not putting any pressure (on authorities) to hand over Raymond Davis to America".

"It is absolutely untrue that the Prime Minister has exerted any influence for the release of Raymond Davis," the spokesperson said.

The American, currently in police custody, contended during a court appearance last week that he had acted in self-defence.

Davis claims it was an attempted carjacking. Hes a Private Security Contractor, of the ilk that gun down people in Baghdad and Kabul. Seems his buddies ran over a bystander while trying to zoom to his rescue.

[saip]

The US diplomats had survived by hiding in a reinforced area, though Marine Security Guard Steve Crowley and another American died in the attack. .................................

The News

Looks like all Western diplomats are provided a panic room in troubled countries like pakistan and some of those in Africa. I wonder if Indian diplomats too are provided these.

[Lalmohan]

steve coll's ghost wars describes teh attack on the isloo embassy in some detail, worth a read

[saip]

Ive never heard of attempted theft being a sufficient cause to gun two people down

It is, if in committing that attempted 'theft' force is used especially a gun. I did read that they found guns near the bodes of the motor cyclists

[ramana]

We dont know if they were brandished at Mr. Davis. If the guns were on their person its not the same as if they were waved at him.

Anyway recall the Union Carbide Warren Anderson who got off scot free with Indian govt of that time connivance as opposed to this situation.

[Brad Goodman]

With few takers, Pakistan onions lying unutilised in markets

Onions imported from Pakistan at the height of the supply crisis are attracting fewer customers here due to their "different" taste, resulting in large stocks of the vegetable lying unsold in the market.

"Only some hoteliers have evinced interest in these big-size onions weighing 200-250 grams each," they added. Out of the 800 tonnes of Pakistani onions that have reached Delhi so far and have been put up for open auction in the last 10 days, 300 tonnes lies unsold, the sources said.

[Anindya]

FWIW, here's what ZeeNews has to say about ISI supari http://www.zeenews.com/news684193.html

Kabul: Pakistan’s Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) is allegedly reported to have offered USD 1.5 million (Rs 7.50 crores) to an Afghan journalist to assassinate India’s Ambassador to Afghanistan Jayant Prasad and USD 0.8 million (Rs 3.60 crores) to kill Baloch leader Brahmdagh Bugti.

[archan]

SDREs cannot digest TFTA onions!

[ramana]

With few takers, Pakistan onions lying unutilised in markets

Onions imported from Pakistan at the height of the supply crisis are attracting fewer customers here due to their "different" taste, resulting in large stocks of the vegetable lying unsold in the market.

"Only some hoteliers have evinced interest in these big-size onions weighing 200-250 grams each," they added. Out of the 800 tonnes of Pakistani onions that have reached Delhi so far and have been put up for open auction in the last 10 days, 300 tonnes lies unsold, the sources said.

Serves them right for not checking the local preferences in rush to do aman ki tamasha.

State-run PEC and STC had contracted about 1,000 tonnes of onions from Pakistan in the first week of January to boost the supply of the vegetable in the national capital, where retail rates had peaked at Rs 70-85 per kg in the last week of December.

Following the ban imposed by the Pakistani government on onion exports to India across the Wagah border in the first week of January -- after the cost of the vegetable soared in that country -- onions were transported to Indian ports by sea, from where they were brought to Delhi by road.

About 800 tonnes out of the total imports of 1,000 tonnes of Pakistani onions have arrived in the national capital so far, Nafed sources said, adding that the rest will arrive soon.

While the bulk of the onions from the neighbouring country were given to cooperatives like Nafed, NCCF and Kendriya Bhandar for selling at a subsidised rate in Delhi, the remaining stock is being put up for open auction.

National Consumers Cooperative Federation Chairman (NCCF) Chairman Virendra Singh said that the agency has incurred losses on the Pakistani onions and has now stopped procuring them.

"NCCF procured around 80 quintals of Pakistani-grown onions for subsidised sale to consumers in Delhi, which attracted little response... Considering losses, we have stopped procuring these onions now," Singh said.

He said Mother Dairy (which is running about 300 outlets in Delhi) has also refused to take consignments of onions from Pakistan.

While the central government is providing a 30 per cent subsidy on procurement of native onions, no similar facility is available for the Pakistani variety of the vegetable, Singh said. "We had to sell it through 18 outlets of NCCF and Kendriya Bhandar, which attracted few customers," he said.

Sources in PEC said the imported onions from Pakistan, which were contracted at a rate of around $658 (about Rs 30,268) per tonne, has resulted in a loss for the agency.

Rajendra Sharma, the General Secretary of the Onion Merchants Association at Azadpur Mandi -- Asia's biggest wholesale fruit & vegetable market -- said traders are saying that the Pakistani onions are thick and their "different" taste is not liked by Indian customers.

So a total loss of $658,000 and then add transportation to Delhi!

never ignore the customer for politicial reasons.

May be they can be made into onion bhajiiya/pakoda for the INC netas to go with chai biskuit?

let them eat pakoda!

[JE Menon]

Pure speculation:

This looks like an out and out hit. Almost certainly this was no ordinary carjacking. The two motorcyclists, most likely ISI or ISI-contracted, may well have been trying to kidnap "Raymond Davis" - probably as part of some ongoing intrigue between the CIA and ISI; that some crap is going on is clear, witness the "outing" of the CIA station chief, the naming of Shuja in the 26/11 case in the US and so on. Now our man Raymond, on spotting the danger probably decided to act first and snuffed both (that's one theory).

There have been witness quotes, on the other hand, that he got out of the car, walked a bit, shot the two oiseaules, and photographed one of them (Faizan Ahmed). This could indicate that it was a deliberate hit, and the target was not actually Davis but Faizan and his companion, and the photograpy was to prove the deed (one must of course collect one's money - being a mercenary and all). Probably they were some relatively low level jackasses who for some reason or other found themselves in the private contractor cross-hairs courtesy of the culinary institute.

The fact that Faizan and his companion were carrying guns, if they were at all, suggests the possibility that it could well have been some sort of entrapment encounter. To me the interesting part is the appearance of his companions at such speed, suggesting that they were close-by monitoring or following Davis' car. Probably the whole thing caused more commotion than was expected and they decided to move in, proceeded to run over a bystander and smash into something and get stuck, which is apparently when Davis was caught by locals.

Presumably a keystone cops situation by the support team. Otherwise, Davis would maybe have made it safely back to the embassy and out ...

Like I said, pure speculation.

[nachiket]

If Davis was caught when the rescue/getaway car got stuck, how did the driver of that car escape?

[JE Menon]

Not just the driver, there were apparently more than one person in the back-up car. It appears that they didn't manage to pick up Davis, that's why he was caught or he was caught before they got to him... Who knows, they seem simply to have vanished from the scene. It is not clear how, exactly. What is certain is that they were there.

[Ananya]

Just reminds me of the U2 Pilot caught over USSR and was exchanged for a KGB spy;may be madam Aafia Siddiqui would indeed see freedom

[ramana]

All this could be to get her released! WoW!

[VikramS]

All this could be to get her released! WoW!

Yup. Checked out D&D after a long time. It is confirmed that the two gunmen were ISI.
And the mother of the guy run over has refused to take blood money but will accept the release of the Sidiqua woman.

[anupmisra]

For all the piousness inherent in naming itself the land of the pure, titling itself an Islamic Republic, claiming that it is an Ideological Muslim state and resultantly having laws that are straitlaced shariah compliant, the Islamic Republic of Pakistan does have a side that is rather seamy :

3 eunuchs raped ‘by wedding guests’

How many witnesses would these eunuchs have to produce under sharia?

[RajeshA]

How many witnesses would these eunuchs have to produce under sharia?

I told my wife about this headline. She felt really sorry for the eunuchs and couldn't understand what I found so funny about this story!

[James B]

This porki has taqleef with 'Hindi' for hogging the limelight, so the paki goes ahead and weaves web of lies to assuage paki H&D.

Letter to Editor in Dawn

Ghalib a Hindi poet?

THIS is apropos of ‘50 years ago today’ (Jan 30) wherein it was reported that BBC in its news bulletin described Ghalib as a Hindi poet while reporting a reception in Delhi which was held in honour of visiting Queen Elizabeth II and Prince Phillip.

On the occasion, a wishing couplet of Ghalib was recited for the guests that he presumably wrote for Emperor Bahadur Shah Zafar. The couplet said: “May you live for a thousand years and may every year have fifty thousand days.”

It was no fault of the BBC reporter because Urdu was, in fact, renamed in India as a Hindi language with a view to claiming its propriety and ownership.

By writing Urdu in the Devnagri script and with the mixing of Hindi and Sanskrit words here and there, it has been named Hindi in our neighbourhood. The same startling description of Urdu and Urdu poets, writers and movies continues today as well.

The deliberate and vicious attempt becomes more evident when films like Ghalib, Mughal-i-Azam, Anarkali, Umrao Jan, Sahab, Bibi aur Ghulam, Chaudhween ka Chand, Barsaat ki Raat and hundreds of other films were issued censorship certificates by describing them Hindi films.

This is known to everyone that Urdu is not an original or basic language like Arabic, Sanskrit or some other languages of the world. It is, in fact, based on amalgamation of words and phrases from many languages, including a dominant role of Hindi, Persian and Arabic.

The Hindi language has no letters for many that are found in Urdu; such as sey, khey, zal, ze, swad, zuwad, tuey, zuey, ain, ghain and qaf.

It can be argued that any of these letters that is component of any so-called Hindi word is surely not a Hindi word, even if it is written in a revised form like that of ‘ze’ in the word ‘jahez’ (dowry) or ‘jahaz’ (aeroplane). It is because Hindi has no substitute for Urdu letter ze or English letter ‘z’.

Moreover, for the purpose of writing some words in Hindi script, their pronunciation was changed to suit the Hindi letters such as khey, ghain and qaf.
Furthermore, there is only one letter in Hindi for sey, seen and swad. Any word that is written in Urdu with the help of any of these letters can never be a Hindi word.

As such, any word which is written in Urdu with no corresponding letter in Hindi is absolutely an Urdu word.

With all this description in mind if the current Hindi in India or the dialogues and songs of the so-called Hindi films are analysed, one reaches the conclusion that describing Urdu as Hindi is nothing but a jugglery, narrow-mindedness or a religio-political stunt.

This is also an open secret that, for its ability and capacity to absorb words in its body from other languages, the Urdu language is widely understood in the length and breadth of India while Sanskritised Hindi is mainly confined to a few states like UP and Bihar.

A. SIDDIQUI
Islamabad

[ramana]

Why is he worried about it?

As I said once Urdu gets written in Devnagiri also his raisins are also gone!

[nachiket]

So this guy says the Hindi spoken in the "length and breadth of India" is actually Urdu. And we had a paki poster here a while back giving everyone Urdu lessons and teaching us how totally different Urdu was from Hindi spoken in India. These guys should really make up their minds.