Artillery Discussion Thread

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 04 Nov 2010 03:05

Only 35 x 155-mm M-46?

Btw I guess numbers dont include BSF artillery

Avik · Post by **Avik** » 04 Nov 2010 03:27

^^^^^^^^

BSF only has a few, just about a dozen or so, very ancient and outdated 20 pounders....

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 04 Nov 2010 09:32

The home made 155 MM gun is a must have item for the future of Indian defence capability. The start has to be made now regardless of the time it takes to test and operationalise the weapon.

A start now sould result in a working hardware in the next 5 years. If the IA has waited 20 years another 5 will not really make a diffrence.

In the mean time the FMS route can be used as a stopgap measure.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 04 Nov 2010 10:15

Aditya G wrote:Only 35 x 155-mm M-46?

Btw I guess numbers dont include BSF artillery

I am guessing these 155mm M-46s are the ones which were upgraded from 130mm using the Israeli soltam kits. I beleive the upgrade didn't work well enough, and so further upgrades were stopped

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 04 Nov 2010 11:50

putnanja,

It had nothing to do with performance, the upg was tested by the IA. The project was scutled by the same thing that has jinxed the IA 155 project over the past 20 years. Leading to the blacklisting of Soltam.

Needless to say it was unsubstantiated.

Truly fcuked up.

I look at the FMS with hope. Yet fear that the aligations of curuption will emerge in this project as well.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 04 Nov 2010 13:38

This requirement is going to rival the AJT decision in terms of time taken,another dubious world record! It is past time for the MOD/GOI to come to a conclusion on this and take an immediate (within 3-months) decision on a war-footing,so that the IA has enough firepower desperately required on all fronts.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 04 Nov 2010 15:06

Indeed. There is room enough for both an Indian gun and the foreign one. This absurd blacklisting and procrastination has to stop.

Rupak · Post by **Rupak** » 04 Nov 2010 17:56

Those numbers are completely incorrect. There are many more M-46 and fewer FH-77B than suggested in the list. There are fewer LFG and more IFG.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 04 Nov 2010 19:07

BAE Systems set to win $650 million M777 howitzer deal with India
Defenseworld

BAE Land Systems 155mm/39cal M777 ultra-light howitzers is undergoing what is dubbed in the Indian media as “confirmatory trials”, which means that if the howitzer passes the test, the Indian MOD will place the order for 145 howitzers on the U.S. made system without going through the tendering process.

The M777 howitzer will be sold under the U.S. foreign military sales (FMS) route through a possible government-to-government deal. The confirmatory trials are said to be taking place in the northern state of Sikkim, which borders China. The deal for the 155mm/59cal howitzers is worth an estimated $650 million and two of the guns have been sent to Sikkim for trials.

Speculation is rife that the M777 howitzer deal with be signed, or at least confirmed to be signed at a later date, during the visit of U.S. President Barak Obama who is scheduled to visit India in the second week of November 2010.

Avid · Post by **Avid** » 04 Nov 2010 20:46

Considering the background information and actions taken by the Obama administration -- I am willing to make a informed speculation that he will not sign any deals for offensive equipment during his trip (no matter the $$$ amount on these deals). His fear of M777 or other offensive equipment contracts being perceived as signal to China or offending the Pak sensitivities, will prevent him from taking any actions that may be considered as somewhat bold.

In contrast, he will be more than happy to sign contracts for -- C-17, C-130J, P8I, etc.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 06 Nov 2010 15:47

Avik wrote:^^^^^^^^

BSF only has a few, just about a dozen or so, very ancient and outdated 20 pounders....

BSF has a small artillery arm compared to the Army, but it is also equipped with 105 mm guns.

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Luit · Post by **Luit** » 06 Nov 2010 18:43

Found this.

RWG-52/RTG-52

http://www.rheinmetall-defence.com/inde ... ery=rtg-52

T5-52

http://www.denellandsystems.co.za/produ ... ption.html

Denel was the best option. we shot ourselves on the foot by banning them

sum · Post by **sum** » 06 Nov 2010 20:49

Shot ourselves in the foot is a understatement...Cant imagine the brown pants in GHQ if 100s of Bhims ( which different lobbies got scuttled after the deal was signed) had been lurking all over the Indian plains waiting for a go ahead to cut Pak in two....

sum · Post by **sum** » 06 Nov 2010 20:50

BAE Land Systems 155mm/39cal M777 ultra-light howitzers is undergoing what is dubbed in the Indian media as “confirmatory trials”, which means that if the howitzer passes the test, the Indian MOD will place the order for 145 howitzers on the U.S. made system without going through the tendering process.

Am sure that the IA will accept howitzers even if TSPA offers them, going by the speed at which new howitzers have been inducted since the 80s..

srai · Post by **srai** » 07 Nov 2010 00:15

sum wrote:
BAE Land Systems 155mm/39cal M777 ultra-light howitzers is undergoing what is dubbed in the Indian media as “confirmatory trials”, which means that if the howitzer passes the test, the Indian MOD will place the order for 145 howitzers on the U.S. made system without going through the tendering process.
Am sure that the IA will accept howitzers even if TSPA offers them, going by the speed at which new howitzers have been inducted since the 80s..

Given the blacklisting of major vendors and nullifying 4-rounds of trials, it will take at the minimum another 5 years before the other towed/wheeled/tracked deals are signed (after trials and financial/work share negotiations). The new guns will not be joining the IA until after 2015 at the earliest given the current practices.

IMO given the above scenario, IA should just triple the BAe's 155mm/39cal M777 ultra-light howitzer order from 145 to 410 guns (or 20 regiments). This should keep the mobile elements of the mountain divisions fully equipped and standardized over the next decade ... regardless of what goes on in the other tenders.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 07 Nov 2010 04:21

145 guns should only be the first order ... once the first guns are delivered you can bet they will order more (as is typcailly the case with all acquisitions).

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 08 Nov 2010 10:02

The question I have is why cant the IA ask the Industry to come up with the arty. With the DRDO and the associated labs & the OFB acting as the coordianting agencies for the project.

A start now ought to diliver a working item in the next 3 years, with testing taking another 2 to 3 years.

Then why is the IA not asking for it. Why is it intent on issuing global tenders. I have personaly watched the global tender business for the past 10 years. With no end in sight to the drama being played. This process has seen every major arty produces get blacklisted at one time or the other.

Or are they so intent on recieving the services of the natashas that they are prepared to lose wars but will not ask the Indian Industry to do the needful.

JMT

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 10 Dec 2010 10:13

Very good Info board on Indian WLR

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_5sP7XwykNSM/T ... 1%2529.JPG

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Dec 2010 10:16

excellent. there was a report that IA had ordered 29 sets. we need 100s of more this basic bread n butter toolkit.

a higher powered model to track MLRS and SRBM shots out to 200km away (hatf, WS1x) would be great as the next step but we need volumes of the current model deployed and in service first.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 11 Dec 2010 16:57

Procurement of Howitzer Guns
MOD press relase

A case for procurement of M777A2 Light Weight 155 mm Howitzers through Foreign Military Sales (FMS) route from the Government of United States of America, is in progress. Under the FMS route, the agreement, if any, takes place between the Governments of Indian and the United States of America.

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 28 Dec 2010 22:44

The 52 Caliber Juggernauts

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 29 Dec 2010 09:49

Usual DDM to say the least.

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 08 Feb 2011 08:25

Indian Army ReFloats Tenders for Heavy Guns
..:: India Strategic ::..

Indian Army ReFloats Tenders for Heavy Guns
By Gulshan Luthra
Published : Feburary 2011

New Delhi. The Indian Army has begun the process for acquiring heavy guns yet again, floating tenders for both the Towed and Tracked systems within January 2011.

The tender for the Towed gun was issued on January 28 while for the Tracked version, it was issued mid-January.

Sources said that several vendors, from France, US, Britain, Israel and Czechoslovakia and other countries, were invited but no details of the tender specifications were available as they are generally secret anyway in accordance with General Staff Qualitative Requirements (GSQRs).

India had earlier cancelled its Request for Proposal (RfP) for 1,580 towed guns (155mm, 52 calibre), as well as for tracked Guns over allegations of corruption involving one company or another. That set back the Army’s artillery modernisation programme by three to five years over and above the ten-year long delay in the process.

But the good news is that the summer and winter field trials of the ultralight gun, BAE Systems M 777 A1, have been completed successfully at the Pokhran range and now some negotiations are to be conducting for acquiring 145 of them from the US Government under its Foreign Military Sales (FMS) programme. The 155mm/45 caliber gun, which can be slung-carried by heavy lift helicopters like the Boeing Chinook, or ferried by heavy trucks, is to be deployed in the mountains.

The process to acquire this type of gun was initiated in 2006.

US Congressional clearance, a mandatory requirement, has already been given and the gun could be in the Indian Army’s inventory within a couple of years after the contract is signed. Made partly of titanium, the gun is about40 per cent lighter than the earlier versions in operation, and is being used extensively in Afghanistan by the US Army.

It has digital controls, can be move quickly after firing, and can deliver munitions up to 40 km. There would be limitations of terrain in the mountains however.

It may be recalled that the artillery had played a decisive role in demolishing Pakistani positions that they had intruded into in Kargil in the 1999 war. But somehow, thanks to the allegations of corruption over the acquisition of 400 Bofors FH 77B (155mm/39 caliber) guns from Sweden in the mid-1980s, the Indian Army has not been able to renew its inventory. The Bofors guns though played havoc with the Pakistanis.

Pakistan however has has acquired M-109 A5 155mm howitzers meanwhile from the United States.

The Indian Army needs to phase out all its medium and field guns, although there is a proposal to upgun the Soviet vintage 130 mm guns into 155 mm guns by replacing the barrel. Israel’s Soltam had assisted in this process with the barrles but only some of the guns have been upgunned, and their results are reported to be very good.

While there is no plan to make the ultralight gun in India, both the other proposals involve part purchase and part Transfer of Technology to make them in India. BAE Systems for this has tied up with the Mahindras, and the Czech with the state-run BEML.

The emphasis on the acquisition now is to go in for ToT, and then make the guns indigenously rather than under licence, the latter option inevitably coming with some restrictions.

It may be pointed out that the French have offered to give all the technology if India buys the Ceasar, described by French officials as “the best and most modern gun” now successfully being used in Afghanistan. They say that this gun can meet both the tracked and towed requirements.

Notably, all the guns with the Indian Army’s Artillery Regiment are obsolete, and it goes to its credit that despite this limitations, it keeps them in ready to fire position. Old Bofors, the (not so light) Light Field Gun, and the Soviet M 46 medium guns are in this obsolete list.

There is progress though on the rocket artillery with the indigenous Pinaka and Russian Smerch Multi Barrel Rocket Launchers (MBRLs) having been inducted.

One hopes this time, the RfP is replied to, the trials are held as required, the deal is done in time, and the guns are delivered ASAP. Artillery plays a potent, battle-winning role and its modernization cannot be delayed any further.

© India Strategic

sum · Post by **sum** » 08 Feb 2011 08:41

^^ Does any vendor even bother replying to the joke of a tender which the IA religiously floats every 2 years?

Israel’s Soltam had assisted in this process with the barrles but only some of the guns have been upgunned, and their results are reported to be very good.

Wasnt the reverse stated in ALL reports till now ( that Soltam upgunned pieces didn't perform satisfactorily)?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 Feb 2011 08:57

what kind of towed gun and SP gun does the regular part of US army operate ? whatever be it, obtaining it via FMS seems like only hope.

get the M777 as std towed howitzer, also get BAE systems to create a 105mm version of the M777 using as much common parts and technology as possible.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 08 Feb 2011 09:08

What a joke!!!!!!!!

If the IA had asked the DRDO to develop the home made weapon in even 2005, it would have entered service by now. But it seems the IA is onlee interested in phoren maal...............

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 08 Feb 2011 09:52

Pratyush, do NOT blame the IA for this mess. They have been pleading for more guns for eons now. The blame for this fiasco lies with the baboons running our MoD and their brethren in the CBI. A simple planted lifafa article in the DDM makes these morons blacklist nearly every vendor without realizing or caring for the obvious fact that this process helps only the pakis and panda. Rajmata and and first family's past history with Bofors must have played a big part in the new FH-77 not being bought as well. Not to mention the head baboon, self proclaimed Mr. Clean. And you are blaming the IA?

I have criticized the IA a lot for their unfathomable attitude towards the Arjun, but this is one problem they are not responsible for.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 08 Feb 2011 10:23

No objection to the ultra-light mountain guns from BAe.They should be acquired immediately to stave off mishchief from the dragon.The idea of new 155mm barrels for Soviet-era 130mm gun is also an excellent idea as it increases the numbers of heavy guns in the inventory cost-effectively.The SP and field guns however should be carried out to ther logical trials conclusion and the best chosen.Whatever happened to Bhim though? Since the Arjun has been given the "tick" mark,why wasn't this also simulateously pushed for approval?

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 08 Feb 2011 10:28

Philip wrote: happened to Bhim though? Since the Arjun has been given the "tick" mark,why wasn't this also simulateously pushed for approval?

It uses the Denel turret with the G5 gun and Denel was (big surprise

) blacklisted. So there you go. Agree about the M777s of course. We need lots of them on the eastern border. The 145 nos. talked about seem too little in my opinion.

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 08 Feb 2011 10:40

Pratyush wrote:What a joke!!!!!!!!

If the IA had asked the DRDO to develop the home made weapon in even 2005, it would have entered service by now. But it seems the IA is onlee interested in phoren maal...............

I concur on that one, the standard 155mm standard gun is not exactly state of the art or cutting edge technology. IT just needs sufficiant quality to be operational with minimal glitches in all types of weather conditions. DRDO could have built this, no problem , but they need the request from IA first.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 08 Feb 2011 11:19

Nihat wrote:
Pratyush wrote:What a joke!!!!!!!!

If the IA had asked the DRDO to develop the home made weapon in even 2005, it would have entered service by now. But it seems the IA is onlee interested in phoren maal...............

I concur on that one, the standard 155mm standard gun is not exactly state of the art or cutting edge technology. IT just needs sufficiant quality to be operational with minimal glitches in all types of weather conditions. DRDO could have built this, no problem , but they need the request from IA first.

Is it? Can you list how many countries make their own 155mm modern howitzers?

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 08 Feb 2011 12:10

Argentina
China
Finland
France
Germany
Israel
Italy
Japan
Russia
Serbia
Singapour
Slovakia
South Africa
South Korea
Sweden
Turkey
UK
USA
Last count 18(though I suspect a couple of them don't actively produce them now), Of course the quality varies.
I reckon India has tried/considered buying from at least 9 of those countries.

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 08 Feb 2011 12:15

Slovakia makes it's own 155mm guns, Germany does (although no orders are placed), there's sweden, UK , France, Poland, South Africa, Singapore, Israel, Italy (not sure), turkey (again not certain) and not to mention U.S.A. and PRC too have their own systems.

Point it, it's not cutting edge or unachievale tech. , given the massive requirement of the armed forced and the constant threat we face on two fronts. The ability to make 155mm light weight guns is just as important as the ability to make own assault rifels.

Jaeger · Post by **Jaeger** » 08 Feb 2011 12:22

^^ Well, a fair bit:
US
UK
France
Germany
SoKo
Israel
Finland
South Africa
PRC
Singapore
Sweden
Turkey
Italy
Slovakia
Russia
...I may have missed 1-2, but it's certainly a list that India should be on.

Jaeger · Post by **Jaeger** » 08 Feb 2011 12:22

Ah... I see there were others... but the point stands...

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 08 Feb 2011 12:26

Perhaps its not cutting edge to make a 155mm gun, but it sure is to make a one that is reliable, accurate and has long life. Automation, user friendliness, designed for abuse, designed for quick repair and a host of other such qualities are what make it cutting edge. How many of the countries listed above have them all in their 155mm gun designs?

Jaeger · Post by **Jaeger** » 08 Feb 2011 12:29

A lot of these countries have based their guns on Gerald Bull's (80's vintage) GC-45, the original 155/45cal, which Denel and then others developed into the 155/52 cal, back in the 90's. This is truly do-able tech. Things like ACCS, sighting systems, automatic loading, APS etc. can be added on, as was the case for the GC-45. But the fundamental gun should've been there to build on by now.
A lot of these countries (China, SoKo, Singapore, Turkey, Spain etc.) bought the GC-45/52 license and then took on consultants to add the bells and whistles. Was this not achievable?

[conspiracy hat on]I think it was, but I also believe that in artillery and in SSKs, the armed forces have been the victims of a sustained covert campaign to deny them fundamental systems.
There are so many vested interests who will find willing collaborators in the corridors of power in Delhi.[/hat off]

Jaeger · Post by **Jaeger** » 08 Feb 2011 12:33

Accuracy is a function of design, yes. But it's also a function of production standards in metallurgy, casting, rifling accuracy, and yes, ammunition quality. Can the OFBs claim to have achieved reasonable standards in any of these? And yet, are these not fundamental needs, and yes, achievable needs?
The fact is this: we do not have a gun. Not even a basic building block to start with. Why not? Bells and whistles can be added, but why are we unable to even create a manually-loaded 39 cal (i.e. 20 years behind the times) 155mm howitzer?

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 08 Feb 2011 12:44

merlin wrote:Perhaps its not cutting edge to make a 155mm gun, but it sure is to make a one that is reliable, accurate and has long life. Automation, user friendliness, designed for abuse, designed for quick repair and a host of other such qualities are what make it cutting edge. How many of the countries listed above have them all in their 155mm gun designs?

but we've got to make a start somewhere. We've made a start with LCA, we'll move on to advance tech. like AMCA and AURA in reasonably quick time. The first step is always the hardest.

kit · Post by **kit** » 08 Feb 2011 13:04

Jaeger wrote:A lot of these countries have based their guns on Gerald Bull's (80's vintage) GC-45, the original 155/45cal, which Denel and then others developed into the 155/52 cal, back in the 90's. This is truly do-able tech. Things like ACCS, sighting systems, automatic loading, APS etc. can be added on, as was the case for the GC-45. But the fundamental gun should've been there to build on by now.
A lot of these countries (China, SoKo, Singapore, Turkey, Spain etc.) bought the GC-45/52 license and then took on consultants to add the bells and whistles. Was this not achievable?

[conspiracy hat on]I think it was, but I also believe that in artillery and in SSKs, the armed forces have been the victims of a sustained covert campaign to deny them fundamental systems.
There are so many vested interests who will find willing collaborators in the corridors of power in Delhi.[/hat off]

Submarines are another example.One would be forgiven for thinking some one is very particular that the country lacks critical offensive capability.The sustained media emphasis and coverage is interesting.