Managing Chinese Threat

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TonyMontana
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by TonyMontana »

Varoon Shekhar wrote: But then, which terrorist nation(s) is India using, Montana? And to your remark about desiring greatness, you missed the point, which is that Europeans and North Americans can actually identify with China, sometimes grudgingly. They see in China's aggressive, relentless, unscrupulous, pursuit of wealth and power a reflection of their own not-so-ancient behaviour. Whereas India is more unfathomable and perplexing with its morality, ethics( notwithstanding huge internal problems) philosophising and eloquence about the primacy and universality of the human spirit and soul. This they( certainly the types who identify with China) find difficult to understand and relate to. China with its blunt forcefulness is far more easier to understand and identify with.
How very Gandhian. Read like a tourist brochure. Is this the India we have? Or is this the India you would like to have? How do you explain all the religious violence, if universality of the human spirit is value held by every Indian? Maybe you would like to explain this to the more, shall we say, "militant", members of BRF.

You idea of the compatibility of the WASP and China is facinating. But to expand on it here would be OT. Let's move on.
Varoon Shekhar wrote: There's more than a touch of irony in your poor China as victim of imperialism idea.
I agree. But the world is a ironic place. With Jews building walls and all.
Varoon Shekhar wrote: India would rather counter imperialism by fighting it if absolutely necessary, but preferably by encouraging freedom,democracy and pluralism. Propping up a North Korea or a Myanmar is not India's ideological answer to Robert Clive and Winston Churchill. Is there a problem comprehending that?
What I understand is you believe India has placed restrictions on itself because of her philosophical out look. But as Stewie said: "Admirable. But foolish."
brihaspati
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by brihaspati »

How the bully always wins : either you submit to the bully and the bully wins, or you use the bully's own methods to beat him down, and the bully wins by creating another bully. This is the modern communist China's great contribution to human civilization and understanding, isnt it Tony Montana ji? Admirable, but foolish I would say! :D

Interesting times ahead for China actually! most interesting for us indeed!
sanjaykumar
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by sanjaykumar »

How do you explain all the religious violence,


What religious violence would this be?
RamaY
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by RamaY »

TonyMontana wrote: How very Gandhian. Read like a tourist brochure. Is this the India we have? Or is this the India you would like to have? How do you explain all the religious violence, if universality of the human spirit is value held by every Indian? Maybe you would like to explain this to the more, shall we say, "militant", members of BRF.
That was uncalled for. You should know how to be a respectful guest.

We don't need to learn Gandhism from you. Gandhi is son of our land and we know what values he lived for and what he wanted Bharat to be like.

I request you to edit your post, otherwise I am going to report your post.
sanjaykumar
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by sanjaykumar »

otherwise I am going to report your post.

For random neuronal firings?
RamaY
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by RamaY »

He wanted to learn things about India right? First thing he has to learn is 'maryada = respect'.

He came to BRF, we didn't go to CRF.
PrasadZ
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by PrasadZ »

TonyMontana wrote:
PrasadZ wrote: Since cultural and social superiority is such an important question to you, do you believe you (or Chinese, in general) are culturally and socially superior to Pakis?
Me? :D No. Not me. From reading BRF I get the feeling that it's a lot more important to Indians. The constant belittling of Pakistanis and Chinese on this board is facinating to say the least. Heck, you have dedicated threads and a unique language just for such purpose.

Maybe it's not a Indian or Chinese trait. But a trait of Nationalists of every colour and creed.
Really? you dont say :rotfl:
On BRF, we had another Chinese explaining to us how dirty, corrupt and poor the AVERAGE Chinese views Indians as. No doubt the enlightened "nationalists" such as you are doing everything you can to provide them the right perception.
TonyMontana wrote:
PrasadZ wrote: gaining superiority over others is just one of many Indian aims, IMHO and the aim of gaining friends, happily, always conflicts with that of gaining superiority.
I like your honesty.
Ahhh my friend. Wish we could say the same of your leaders, eh :lol:
TonyMontana wrote: Just as a general comment. I now have a better understanding of the the amount of "heat" directed at even good natured Chinese posters on BRF. It must really grinds your gears to have China, a collection of inferior culture and ethnicity, being uppity and not know their place. Occupying sacred Indian soil and creating unrest in India to the detriment of her economy.
On the contrary ! Chinese drones coming onto a forum dedicated to the minority Indian jingo shows mounting disquiet over India's growing might. The Chinese tested nukes first, attacked India first, liberalised first and threatened India first. I can honestly say, amongst my crowd, not one considers China inferior in any way - if anything, there is respect for their capacity for social upheaval. Sure, some amongst us consider the "white" nations superior but its a rare countryman who attaches any emotion to China. Sheesh - few have harsh words for Pakistanis and there is a shitload that country has done to deserve our hate.

You are ascribing thoughts to me that are probably truer for you. Its the very normal fallacy of ascribing thoughts and emotions to others that you feel yourself. Which brings me back to my original point, what is it about Chinese nationalist thought that seeks its raison in claiming "superiority" over its neighbors? What does history teach us about this Chinese tendency? Judging from my limited read, China has had a millennia of wars with Japan, Korea and Vietnam and a historic sense of wrongs spans right across East Asia against China. All 3 countries remain sovereign and ready to rein in the Chinese dragon :eek:

About the only historic neighbor that China has tamed so far is Tibet and you know why India bothers the Chinese so much - the Tibetan leader is hosted on our "sacred soil" :twisted:
svinayak
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by svinayak »

PrasadZ wrote: Since cultural and social superiority is such an important question The Chinese tested nukes first, attacked India first, liberalised first and threatened India first.

This must be really first in the history where a new country behaves in this way.
Varoon Shekhar
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by Varoon Shekhar »

"No doubt the enlightened "nationalists" such as you are doing everything you can to provide them the right perception."

Right, and the likes of Tony Montana in China are also freely and openly questioning or providing alternative views, information or persepectives on the Chinese role in the Korean war, the 1962 war with India, the Chinese support for the genocidal Khmer Rouge and the Chinese invasion of Vietnam, among other issues. The last thing on Montana's mind is to support the dry, sterile Chinese politbureau positions on these matters. That is, I think.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by archan »

TonyMontana wrote: Maybe you would like to explain this to the more, shall we say, "militant", members of BRF.
I have told you earlier as well. We allowed you with your contrary point of view because we felt it brought in a certain level of balance. But you insist on namecalling other members. Calling any member a militant is not acceptable. This is your fourth warning and you are now banned. If you cannot behave, you cannot stay.
kit
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by kit »

Time for India to declare its CORE interests.That would mean it is non negotiable.How about Kashmir and Arunachal for starters ?
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by AKalam »

Understanding China, "the last millennium of Chinese history", a three part lecture series by Frederic Wakeman.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederic_Wakeman
The prominent historian and author Jonathan Spence called Wakeman "quite simply the best modern Chinese historian of the last 30 years." Spence and Wakeman were widely regarded as the two best historians of Chinese history based in the West at the time of Wakeman's death; while Spence published books geared towards a mass audience, Wakeman wrote more deeply scholarly works for the academic community. He was also a popular teacher. Among his former students are Mark Elliott, Orville Schell, and Wen-hsin Yeh.

Wakeman retired from teaching in May 2006. He died later that year in Lake Oswego, Oregon of liver cancer at the age of 68.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huVdBvlTCv4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnTs_6AvHdk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRL84XCXyGc
Ravi Karumanchiri
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by Ravi Karumanchiri »

X-POSTED: US and PRC relationship & India

EXCERPTS from "Will China and India grow together or grow apart?", by Prof. Kishore Mahbubani, National University of Singapore, at the India Habitat Centre, New Delhi on January 8, 2011

(BETTER TO READ THE WHOLE THING HERE: http://www.rediff.com/news/slide-show/s ... 110113.htm )
...

When China emerges with the world's largest economy by 2027, or earlier, it will be the first time in over 200 years that at a non-Western power will be the strongest power in the world. It is possible that the West will sit back passively and not try to thwart China's rise. However, it would be wiser for China to make its geopolitical plans on the basis that the West will try, directly or indirectly, to thwart China's rise.

My second point is that when the West tries to thwart the rise of China, it would prefer to do it indirectly rather than directly. The ideal scenario is the one that the West used successfully against the Soviet Union. There the West did not confront the Soviet Union directly. Instead, it unleashed radical Islamic forces in Afghanistan to unhinge the Soviet Union.

That strategy succeeded. Vis- -vis China, the best instrument that the West could find to thwart the rise of China would be the second fastest rising Asian power, namely India. The emergence of a bitter and persistent geopolitical contest between China and India would be an ideal geopolitical outcome for the West.

My third, and I hope most obvious point, is that it does not serve India's interests to be used an as instrument by the West to thwart China's rise. In simple geopolitical logic, the best position for India to take is to maintain a neutral and carefully staked out middle position in the coming struggle between the West and China.

The West will try to seduce India by saying that this is not a power struggle but a struggle over virtue and values: democracy versus communist authoritarian systems.

However, the history of the West has shown that geopolitical interests always trump values. This is why the West supported the Saudi-Pakistan axis over India in the Cold War.

...

Please see pages 219-234 from my book The New Asian Hemisphere. The complex strategy included the following elements: heeding Deng Xiaoping's advice to take a low profile

Note: the following characters describe Deng's advice:
1. lengjing guancha: observe and analyse [developments] calmly;
2. chenzhuo yingfu: deal [with changes] patiently and confidently;
3. wenzhu zhenjiao: secure [our own] position;
4. taoguang yanghui: conceal [our] capabilities and avoid the limelight;
5. shanyu shouzhuo: be good at keeping a low profile;
6. juebu dangtou: never become a leader;
7. yousuo zuowei: strive to make achievements.

China is using the developing interdependence between the US and China, where the US economy now heavily depends on Chinese purchases of US Treasury Bills and taking full advantage of America's absolutely stupid policies vis- -vis the Islamic world.

...

Indeed, the Chinese believe that they have many reasons to feel distrustful of the West.

This suspicion is well captured in the following poem:

An Awakening Message

When we were the Sick Man of Asia, We were called The Yellow Peril.
When we are billed to be the next Superpower, we are called The Threat.
When we closed our doors, you smuggled opium to open markets.
When we embrace Free Trade, You blame us for taking away your jobs.
When we were falling apart, you marched in your troops and wanted your fair share.
When we tried to put the broken pieces back together again, Free Tibet you screamed, it was an Invasion!
When we tried Communism, you hated us for being Communist.
When we embrace Capitalism, you hate us for being Capitalist.
When we have a billion people, you said we were destroying the planet.
When we tried limiting our numbers, you said we abused human rights.
When we were poor, you thought we were dogs.
When we loan you cash, you blame us for your national debts.
When we build our industries, you call us polluters.
When we sell you goods, you blame us for global warming.
When we buy oil, you call it exploitation and genocide.
But when you go to war for oil, you call it liberation.
When we were lost in chaos and rampage, you demanded rules of law.
When we uphold law and order against violence, you call it violating human rights.
When we were silent, you said you wanted us to have free speech.
When we are silent no more, you say we are brainwashed-xenophobics.
Why do you hate us so much, we asked.
No, you answered, we don't hate you.
We don't hate you either,
But, do you understand us?
Of course we do, you said,
We have AFP, CNN and BBC's...
What do you really want from us?
Think hard first, then answer...
Because you only get so many chances.
Enough is Enough, Enough Hypocrisy for This One World.
We want One World, One Dream, and Peace on Earth.
This Big Blue Earth is Big enough for all of Us.

...

Please let me emphasise one point: I presume that it is clear that it is not in India's interest to join the West in trying to de-legitimise the Chinese political system, tempting as it may be.

The second instrument that the West can try to use against China is divide-and-rule. Indeed, this is how the West conquered the world. One reason why I published my first book, Can Asians Think? was to answer an obvious question: how did 100,000 Englishmen rule so effectively over 300 million Indians. One obvious reason: divide-and-rule. ... the ideal geopolitical instrument [for the West to use against China] will be India.

Why India? The simplest answer is that from year 1 to year 1820, the two largest economies were China and India. However, with the passing of the era of Western domination of world history, there will be an almost natural return of China and India to the number one and number two slots in Global GNP ranking.

From the point of view of Western geopolitical interests, with China and India returning as the number one and number two non-Western powers in the world, what better geopolitical scenario could there be for the West than for the number one and number two to struggle against each other as they are rising?

And if they both succeed in slowing down the rise of each other, won't the prime beneficiary of this be the West?

The third and final question is this: is it in India's interest to join the West in thwarting the rise of China? I presume that the answer is no. There is a simple rule of geo-politics. In any three-way contest of power, the best position to occupy is the middle-position.

To put it simply, it is better to be courted by both sides rather than to be taken for granted as an instrument by one side and as an adversary by the other side.

...

In geopolitics, it is a mistake to allow emotions to determine when to get aggravated. Getting aggravated should be a rational choice, not an emotional choice.

...

This is why the best strategy for India to emulate in trying to rise and emerge peacefully is to follow Deng Xiaoping's seven-point advice for China.

...

There is one fundamental common interest that China and India share. Both have suffered foreign invasions and foreign humiliation over the past two hundred years. Both have also understood well the price they paid for being weak. Both have also suffered the most in the period of Western domination of world history.

It would therefore be hugely ironic that at the most propitious moment in both their histories, they allow the geopolitical interests of the West to trump the common interests they have in seizing the best moment to re-establish themselves as the two most powerful countries in the world. And, if both can follow their common interests rather than Western interests, both can grow together, not grow apart.
READ THE WHOLE ARTICLE: http://www.rediff.com/news/slide-show/s ... 110113.htm
Ravi Karumanchiri
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by Ravi Karumanchiri »

X-POSTED: US and PRC relationship & India
X-POSTED: Wikileaks Diplomatic Cable Dump - News & Discussion

EXCERPTS from "Eastern promises, western fears"
Siddharth Varadarajan, The Hindu, January 25, 2011

http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/lead/ar ... epage=true
...

Behind the heavy typeface that the release of confidential American diplomatic cables by WikiLeaks has generated lie smaller stories which sometimes tell us more about the way in which our world is changing than the headlines themselves.

The U.S. ambassador in Paris met Michel Rocard, a former Prime Minister of France, in October 2005 for one of those sweeping, freewheeling chats that Gallic statesmen evidently specialise in. The bulk of the conversation deals with the French political scene but at the end, M. Rocard shares his concerns about the place of France and the United States in the new world order and proposes a joint Euro-American think-tank to prepare for the future. “Speaking of the growth of India and China, along with all the other challenges confronting both of us,” the leaked cable quotes the senior French politician as saying, “We need a vehicle where we can find solutions for these challenges together — so when these monsters arrive in 10 years, we will be able to deal with them.”

So there we have it. Even as the Indian elephant and Chinese dragon circle each other warily, wondering how each will cope with the rise of the other, the Occidental mind which has enjoyed dominating the world and the global commons for two centuries is worrying about how to deal with the combined arrival of these two “monsters.”

Happily for the West, the arrivistes are not exactly on the best of terms with each other...

...

From the Chinese side, a number of scholars spoke of four specific problem areas with India. There is, first and foremost, the unsettled boundary and the fact that border territories are disputed. Second, the presence of the Dalai Lama and the so-called ‘Tibetan government in exile' is seen as a continuing irritant, especially in the aftermath of the disturbances which shook Lhasa and some other Tibetan pockets in China in 2008. Third, and this was surprising, the scholars acknowledged that China's friendship with Pakistan was a source of friction with India. And though they differed from the Indian side in characterising the current nature of the relationship, they acknowledged the fact that “balancing India” used to be a primary Chinese motive in the past. Their argument was that the rise of the Indian economy in the past decade has forced Chinese policymakers to de-hyphenate their South Asian policy. Finally, many of the Chinese interlocutors spoke of growing strategic suspicions that are made worse by a trust deficit. “Many people in China believe Indians look down upon them,” a professor from the International Relations department of Renmin University said. “India sees itself as close to the West and is willing to be used by the U.S. in its desire to become a world power.” Other scholars echoed the same view in different ways — that India might become part of an American-led effort to gang-up against China, that many in India subscribe to the ‘China threat' thesis.

...

As far as Pakistan is concerned, it is obvious that China and India have a crucial stake in the stability of that country and need to discuss between them what they can do to help the situation there. The Chinese side is well aware of the emerging ideological and institutional fault lines in Pakistan. If there is any country other than the U.S. that has the ability to exercise leverage over the Pakistani military, it is China. Until now, however, China has been reluctant to use its influence. For more than four decades, Chinese strategic thinking on Pakistan has been dominated by the need to ‘balance' India. But with India having outgrown South Asia and Pakistan in danger of imploding as the problem of extremism and terrorism slowly gets out of control, Beijing cannot afford to remain wedded to this anachronistic mindset.

...
READ THE FULL ARTICLE HERE http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/lead/ar ... epage=true

READ THE AFOREMENTIONNED WIKILEAKED US DIPLOMATIC CABLE HERE http://213.251.145.96/cable/2005/10/05PARIS7360.html (Specifically, the last paragraph.)
sanjaykumar
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by sanjaykumar »

“Speaking of the growth of India and China, along with all the other challenges confronting both of us,” the leaked cable quotes the senior French politician as saying, “We need a vehicle where we can find solutions for these challenges together — so when these monsters arrive in 10 years, we will be able to deal with them.


Mugambo khush hua. France need not worry about India. It will be of as much interest to India as an anthill in Africa.
Johann
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by Johann »

Ravi Karumanchiri wrote:X-POSTED: US and PRC relationship & India

EXCERPTS from "Will China and India grow together or grow apart?", by Prof. Kishore Mahbubani, National University of Singapore, at the India Habitat Centre, New Delhi on January 8, 2011

(BETTER TO READ THE WHOLE THING HERE: http://www.rediff.com/news/slide-show/s ... 110113.htm )

...it does not serve India's interests to be used an as instrument by the West to thwart China's rise. In simple geopolitical logic, the best position for India to take is to maintain a neutral and carefully staked out middle position in the coming struggle between the West and China.
The Americans don't seem to have any desire to check China's rise - even most hawks in its establishment think that trying to choke China would bring out the worst in the PRC, besides damaging the American economy.

Rather what they want is cooperation between states that are looking for ways to encourage a more powerful China to play nicely.

That kind of Indo-Japanese-Vietnamese-American cooperation will only happen if the aggressive and short-sighted elements within the PLA are allowed free reign. No wonder their closest allies are pariah failed states like North Korea, Myanmar and Pakistan.

The CPC had better look in to their little red books and pay attention to what Mao said "Our principle is that the Party commands the gun, and the gun must never be allowed to command the Party." Thats been steadily less of the case since 1989.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by krisna »

Er… by the way, Tibet!
Shukla ji pitching in for hardening of stance on dlagon.
Tibet map
Tibet district map
That New Delhi is already willing to play the Tibet card was signalled by foreign minister SM Krishna on a visit to Beijing last November, when he compared India’s sensitivities over Kashmir with China’s over Tibet and Taiwan. The foreign ministry also claims to have been blunt while raising the issue with Wen Jiabao during the Chinese premier’s visit to Delhi last month.
While a tactical Beijing may proffer cosmetic concessions, India’s key concern --- the boundary dispute --- will probably remain ignored. China simply has no incentive to settle that problem. Indian policymakers ascribe Beijing’s indifference to its calculation that a better border deal lies further down the superpower road, but more sophisticated China watchers discern another reason. With China’s leaders obsessively aware of their failure in suppressing Tibetan nationalism, they fear that delineating the border might see Indian influencing radiating into Tibet.
The Chinese logic is simple and elegant: keep New Delhi’s attention on Aksai Chin and Arunachal Pradesh to prevent it from focusing on Tibet.
New Delhi must counter that strategy with a fundamental shift in the way it views the border dispute: as an India-Tibet-China issue, rather than as a purely Sino-Indian one. Tibet has long been the elephant in the room when New Delhi talks to Beijing; that presence must be unambiguously placed on the table. Beijing’s road to Lhasa, it must be made clear, runs through New Delhi.
While Taiwan encompasses a different set of dynamics, Beijing regards Tibet as a far bigger problem than Xinjiang. This belief was reinforced by the 2008 uprising that sprang from Amdo, one of traditional Tibet’s three provinces that now lies outside the Tibet Autonomous Region (TAR), mainly in Qinghai province, and which demographic transfers have converted into a Han-majority area. If even a “pacified” Amdo could erupt in rebellion, argue the mandarins in Zhongnanhai, how do we deal with the remote reaches of Tibet that border on India? In contrast, the borders of Xinjiang have been effectively sealed through agreements with Pakistan and the Central Asian Republics, all of who function as Rottweilers for Beijing.
If TSP balkanises then what. dlagon has more interest in keeping TSPA alive as a unit.
eijing realises that its dramatic infrastructure development programme in Tibet, and the lightening march of People’s Liberation Army divisions to the Indian border all rest on very shaky foundations. It is time for Indian diplomats to treat Tibet as an asset, rather than as an embarrassment.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by RajeshA »

X-Posted from the [url=hhttp://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?p=1021524#p1021524]TSP Thread[/url]
Sanku wrote:@RajeshA, et al -- on the issue of whether China will be able to step in effectively as a replacement for US as the chief handler of the terrorist state.

I would like to point out one dimension which has been missed in the context of the discussion: that of Indian response in both cases.

To explain what the discussion has focused on how effective China will be in that role, its constraints, possible new issues, handling of current ones etc etc. However the discussion assumes that Indian response to the very hostile actions by the combine will be same whether its TSPA+US or CPC+TSPA. A reflection perhaps of our level of confidence in GoI especially given the stellar record of current administration. :) However, I think that is being a wee bit pessimistic. Firstly India is still a democracy, and there is no reason to give up hope on future govts. Secondly even a WKK level govt like the current ones may respond different if US is replaced by China.

Let us examine some factors which can lead to different response. (note this is a purely objective list, I am not making a value judgment here)
1) Absence of NRIs in a large number (with a large number of MUTUs) to influence domestic and institutional behavior.
2) Absence of a large middle class linked to trade benefits with China.
3) Absence of past military conflict coloring views with US.
4) Presence of current border conflicts.
5) Geo-graphical distance, making any potential response easier or harder.
6) Presence of levers to influence affairs of a country (trade routes, local hostile populations)
7) Historical memory of govt to govt contacts being helpful or otherwise.

So basically how well TSP manages to get along with its latest master, also depends on the pressures put on the relationship, of which Indian pressures IMVHO are likely to be quite different.

======================

For the record on first issue of how well Chinese will handle Pak; I think

1) There is a difference between fathering and guiding a concept since inception and me-too piggy backing on a established concept.
2) A difference in physical build-up playing on the piskology of a race obsessed with TFTAness.
3) The distance allowing a player to play a "neutral" role and avoid blowback.

So clearly it is not difficult to see which view I subscribe to.
Sanku wrote:
RajeshA wrote:I don't think, that is really in India's interests!
SSridhar wrote:Rajesh, what I have stated is not what I wish or even do not wish. I am only saying what is a possibility.
Why? Serious question?

Why would a blatantly Islamist (as opposed to the current mask) be any worse? What factors are likely to be worse for India?
Sanku ji,
I'll try to answer that question, though I am not sure how well I'll manage:

1) The Shackled RAPE Theory - Just as Indians have been Macaulayized by the British, so too were the Pakistanis, especially the RAPEs, who happened to be influential power brokers in Pakistan, though by no means the sole power centers. Also the various Pakistani dictators were also in awe of American power. So even as the RAPEs hated the Indians, the Hindus, at least there had considerations of appearing civilized. I don't think, one should underestimate this consideration, for we know from history that barbarity can be much much more brutal. So just the need of the RAPE to be able to interact with Westerners, to travel to the West, to appear noble and be recognized by the West as the Nobility meant a lot for the RAPEs. This psychological need for recognition helped somewhat to stay the hand of barbarity and acted as a leash.

This leash has been progressively been getting looser and sometime in the future this is about to break completely. The Macaulayism Spell is wearing off in Pakistan. People are looking for Recognition more and more through Islamic Identity and Doctrine. So even though the whiskey-swirling Pakistani dictators portrayed themselves for their compatriots as Ghazis, out on their Ghazwas, their bark was worse than their bite. So one fear is that we could get really pious Ghazis out on Ghazwa-e-Hinds with nukes in power in Pakistan. We have to consider that instead of Jihadi terror in India being used as a tool of foreign policy, it becomes a way of life in Pakistan, something just as normal and required as brushing one's teeth or as praying 5 times a day per scripture.

It is not a question of any change in principle but rather a change in degree.

2) The American Leash Theory - Americans have been big financial and military contributors to Pakistan. Since year 2000, India's relations with USA have also been improving. In fact, India going out of its way to appease USA especially on Pakistan does not sit too well with many, including me. So even as the Pakistanis have received much India-centric military weaponry, and even though there have been terrorist attacks against India, one might like to think that it could have been worse were America not looking over Pakistani shoulders.

To be frank, I am not so sure how far the above case is true, but the GoI acts as if it were.

3) Nature of the Chinese Patronage - Some are saying that when America stops financing and arming Pakistan, China would have to step in, in an equal measure to what the Americans have been serving the Pakis, as if that was needed. There can be Chinese investments in Pakistan or to some extent even some financial help, but the Chinese need not do it.

In the 80s the Americans gave substantial support to the Pakis to direct the Jihad against Soviet Union in Afghanistan. Then it was given willingly because of the importance of the task. After 911 too America stepped up its aid to Pakistan. This time however Pakistan is being asked to do something which goes against its own perceived national interests.

Would the Chinese demand something from Pakistan in which its own heart would not be in it? May be to some extent it could be to clamp down on the Uyghurs training in the tribal areas. The Pakistanis are not emotionally attached to the Uyghurs and would happily do it. Even the Pakislamists could oblige by coercing the Uyghurs to tone down their Jihad against China. I don't consider this a make-or-break issue. Pakistan's first love is to destroy India. This Pakistan would do even without any Chinese encouragement. So it would be the Chinese who would be helping out Pakistan to fulfill Pakistan's own agenda. So the costs to China would remain low, as everything China wants Pakistan to do, Pakistan would be more than willing to do it of its own volition. China can provide the support to Pakistan which can make Pakistan's terror against India, its support for Islamic insurgencies, a hundred times deadlier for Indians.

4) India's Equation with Pakistan's Patron - If the Americans have demanded anything from India for keeping the leash on Pakistan, if it has been on any leash at all, then that something may be India allowing USA a free hand in Pakistan, or some talks, or some talks about talks, or may be some defense orders.

Once China becomes Pakistan's main patron, and if India is forced to go to the patron to request the patron to put a leash on Pakistan, then our goose would truly have been cooked. We have a big border dispute with China, where China is almost claiming the whole of our Northeast. India simply cannot be put to blackmail or be forced to make a concessions to a party with whom we have a serious dispute, a country which attacked India once.

So the price for holding back Pakistan without attacking it directly increases manifold.

5) Potential for Trouble-Making - Unencumbered by any American influence in Pakistan, China would be tempted to trust the Pakistanis even more and invest in the relationship even more. This may lead to China and Pakistan increasing the level of encouragement for insurgencies and terrorism in India even more. India's North and Northeast could be virtually be in flames.

6) Full Islamic Identity - With the RAPE and TFTAs in power, if India goes to war against Pakistan or rather is forced into a war with Pakistan, it looks more like two countries fighting a war on territory and for political reasons. The Pan-Islamic character of the war would be subdued. But what if Pakistan is an Islamist country in some theocratic sense, a country where Mullahs rule.

Then it would be all the more harder to present this war to the Muslim World as a political conflict. It is far more likely they will accept Pakistani propaganda and see it as Jihad against the Kufr India. That could have far bigger consequences for India and Indians politically, economically, security-wise in West Asia.

7) Pull on Indian Muslims - Till now the majority of Indian Muslims have managed to resist Pakistani propaganda and not joined in in subverting India. Can we be so sure, that once Pakistan becomes an Islamist theocracy, that the pull on the Indian Muslims will not increase?
Sanku
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by Sanku »

RajeshA ji; thank you for the response. I do however note that you have taken a stab primarily at the second question. So I assume that you do agree with the fact that a non US patron might change the Indian response. I do know that you have stated that it will complicate the appeasement process, however considering that we think that appeasement is a loosing game, the fact that India will be forced to take more direct response against the sponsors of TSP may be overall beneficial and further increase the cost to the sponsor. To that extent I consider the complication; +ve.
Prem
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by Prem »

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011 ... efault.php#
'Pay China First' -- Republicans' Wild Plan To Avoid U.S. Debt Default
New Republican legislation in the House and Senate would force the U.S. government to reroute huge amounts of money to China and other creditors in the event that Congress fails to raise its debt ceiling. "I intend to introduce legislation that would require the Treasury to make interest payments on our debt its first priority in the event that the debt ceiling is not raised," Sen. Pat Toomey (R-PA) wrote in a Friday Wall Street Journal op-ed. If passed, Toomey's plan would require the government to cut large checks to foreign countries, and major financial institutions, before paying off its obligations to Social Security beneficiaries and other citizens owed money by the Treasury -- that is, if the U.S. hits its debt ceiling. Republican leaders insist they will raise the country's debt limit before this happens. But first, they're going to try to force Democrats to accept large spending cuts, using their control over the debt limit as leverage. That means gridlock, and the threat that they'll come up short.That's where Toomey's idea supposedly comes in. And yet, according to the Treasury Department, his plan wouldn't actually avoid a default, or its catastrophic consequences
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by AKalam »

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/n ... ina01.html

Could China become the next Egypt?


Beijing officials are keeping a close eye on the revolt sweeping through the Middle East.
By Andrew Higgins and Keith B. Richburg
The Washington Post
HONG KONG —

Could the popular revolt against authoritarian regimes of the Middle East ever spread to China, the world's most populous nation? And if so, does the United States have a policy to deal with it?

The ticklish question has been hovering in the background since the "Jasmine Revolution" street uprising toppled the president of Tunisia two weeks ago. It has only gained in urgency as the demonstrations spread to Yemen, Jordan and then Egypt — threatening President Hosni Mubarak's near-30-year-grip on power.

A Chinese blogger first posed the query to President Obama's chief Asia expert during a videoconference from the White House Situation Room with eight Mainland bloggers.

"In my view, many Chinese netizens and intellectuals believe that China's future is Tunisia-ization," noted the Beijing-based blogger, 2Keqi, in the Web chat with Jeffrey Bader, the National Security Council's (NSC) senior director for Asian affairs. "Does the American government make this same assessment and does it have a policy plan" in the event that China takes such a turbulent path?

Bader and another official, Ben Rhodes, deputy NSC adviser for strategic communications, declined to answer directly, instead repeating the administration's oft-stated position about the importance of human rights and the need to let people "realize their own aspirations."

The question came up again last Friday at the White House news briefing, posed to press secretary Robert Gibbs — who similarly declined to engage.

But at a time when many Americans have come to view China — with its double-digit economic growth and huge investments in infrastructure and energy technologies — in terms of the challenges it poses to the United States' position as the world's pre-eminent economic power, many here see the country's closed political system as unsustainable and a key vulnerability restricting its leaders' grand ambition.

"America's understanding of China is very limited," the blogger, 2Keqi, told Bader and Rhodes. Many Chinese, he added, find it "extremely difficult to accept the idea that the 21st century is China's century."

It is an issue the Chinese authorities clearly care about, too. Chinese Internet users have been largely barred from making comments about the ongoing popular revolt in Egypt, as Beijing's Communist rulers tread a fine line between allowing generally unfiltered news reports of the protests while also discouraging the idea that the uprising may bring democracy to the Arab world's largest country.

Online news sites typically allow readers to have comments and form discussion groups after articles are posted, but that service has been disabled since the Egyptian protests began.

Also, the search engines on some of the most popular micro-blogging sites turned up no results for the words "Egypt," "Cairo," "Tunisia" and "Jasmine Revolution." Users instead received a message saying the search result could not be displayed "because of the relevant law, regulations and policy." Even searches for the word "jasmine" turned up no results.


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The main Chinese newspapers all carried front-page stories about the protests, including photographs, but largely without any analysis or editorial comment. Much of the recent coverage has focused on the looting and the breakdown of order in Egyptian cities, without much explanation of the root causes of the unrest.

In the only official commentary on the uprising, the Chinese foreign minister spokesman, Hong Lei, said on Sunday, "Egypt is a friend of China and we hope Egypt will return to social stability and normal order as soon as possible."

One editor of an online news site said the Party's Propaganda Department, China's main censorship organ, asked his outlet only to use news from Egypt provided by Xinhua, the official government news agency.

Still, some local micro-blogging sites — the Chinese equivalent of Twitter — have been following events in Egypt closely, often finding ways around the official controls. "The Netizens are quite excited by what's happening in Egypt," said Zhang Lifan, a historian who has studied the history of the Chinese Communist Party.

Zhang said he was able to browse through photographs from Egypt and found "those scenes are very similar to what happened in Beijing 20 years ago" — a reference to the Chinese army's crackdown on pro-democracy students and demonstrators at Tiananmen Square.

He said he was particularly struck by the image of a young Egyptian protester standing in the street to block an armored vehicle, a pose similar to a Chinese protester, Wang Weilin, whose dramatic stance in front of a tank became one of the iconic images from the Tiananmen crackdown.

"The waters of the Nile flow into the Yellow River," Zang said.

Still, while some drew parallels between the authoritarian government here in China and those of the Middle East, there remain obvious differences. Most important, the Middle Eastern countries now facing popular unrest all share the same volatile mix of a swelling population of angry youth, widespread unemployment, and governments that lack credibility in the face of economic despair.

China's leaders, by contrast, have staked their legitimacy on the country's double-digit economic growth and three decades of improving living standards. China's economy recently surpassed Japan's as the world's second largest, behind the United States.

And the Beijing leadership tries to engender patriotic pride and popular support through grandiose national projects, like hosting the 2008 Olympics and the 2010 Shanghai Expo, building high-speed trains, erecting towering skyscrapers and sending Chinese astronauts into space.
Some relevant Comments:

Tyrone Shoelaces
Seattle, WA
3197 comments
February 1, 2011 at 10:38 AM
Economic growth has a powerful calming effect on a population. In Egypt this was largely irrelevant because the Mubarak regime kept almost all the growth in the hands of the elite.

Bubbles burst, and setbacks happen. The Chinese Communist Party has been remarkably good at managing their economy, but nobody's perfect.

What happened in Egypt and Tunisia, though, wasn't caused by corrupt government and bad economic conditions alone. It was also caused by education: in each country, people were trained in the techniques of nonviolent overthrow. Activists from OTPOR (the group that brought down Milosevic in Serbia) and the documentary "Bringing down a dictator" taught people how to generate a mass movement of people who simply refuse to be ruled by the old regime.

The same education can happen in China or anywhere. Tianamen was a defeat, but it does not prove that the Chinese regime is immortal. The protesters in Tianamen were an isolated minority, a few students. They failed to win over the rest of the people, and they failed to win over the army.

China has been slowly liberalizing it's rule. A nonviolent movement can speed this process up without ever toppling or overtly threatening to topple the rule of the party.


tairen
China
1 comments
February 1, 2011 at 1:09 AM
Foresighted, but it seems few people here care about China situations.
China resembles pre-unrest Egypt in many ways, perhaps, is worse than it. May be the economics as an exception.
Both suffer the bureaucracy corruption, both have intellectuals unsatisfied with a long time autocracy and are pursuing some real democracy.
What makes the ruling Communist Party lucky is that Chinese lunar new year - the most important festival of the Chinese, is coming, making agitation a hard work even when the Egyptians are struggling for their freedom.
Given that Egypt army has promised not to play massacre on its own people as the 1989 China do, it seems this demonstration is likely to reach some dramatic goal, which must be an invaluable stimulus to the Chinese intellectuals.
Sooner or later, the Chinese will have their freedom back, just a matter of time.
svinayak
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by svinayak »

AKalam wrote:
What makes the ruling Communist Party lucky is that Chinese lunar new year - the most important festival of the Chinese, is coming, making agitation a hard work even
Sooner or later, the Chinese will have their freedom back, just a matter of time. [/b]

I will be going to a Chinese lunar new year party. I will be first Indian in this group it seems.
Sanku
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by Sanku »

Bramha Chellany Uvacha

Sceptre and altar: the Karmapa case
The intrigue surrounding one of Tibetan Buddhism’s highest figures has compelling political implications
http://www.livemint.com/2011/02/0220174 ... rmapa.html
In 1992, Beijing helped select and install the seven-year-old Ogyen Trinley Dorje as the 17th Karmapa Lama. He became the first reincarnated “living Buddha” recognized and ratified by Communist China. But in 1999, Dorje made a stunning escape to India through Nepal. This attracted the world’s attention, but the apparent ease with which he and his entourage managed to flee also caused deep suspicion.
Brilliant article; must read for all.
krisna
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by krisna »

WikiLeaks: Chinese weapons fall into hands of insurgents
Chinese-made weapons have fallen into the hands of insurgents fighting Coalition forces in Iraq and Afghanistan because of China’s failure to enforce export controls on arms to Iran, the leaked cables show.
US diplomats also feared that Chinese companies were selling materials to Iran that could be used to build nuclear missiles and other weapons of mass destruction.
Chinese-made guns, as well as rocket-propelled grenades and surface-to-air missiles containing Chinese-made components, have all been used against Coalition forces or civilian targets in Iraq, the US claims, while other weapons have been obtained by militants in Afghanistan.
The US was so concerned about Chinese arms and components being sold to Iran that in September 2008 the State Department launched a major diplomatic offensive to put pressure on Beijing.
It decided to share intelligence with eight “key allies” including Spain and Italy to “persuade China to enforce its export control laws more effectively” and to “aggressively implement” UN Security Council resolutions on the sale of arms and weapons materials.
They included “new-condition Chinese produced small arms” which were “found together with newly-produced Iranian military materiel”; a surface-to-air missile fired at a Boeing 747 civilian airliner over Baghdad in August 2004 “assembled in Iran using a mix of Chinese and Iranian parts”; “two Chinese-origin QW-1 MANPADS (surface-to-air missiles) that Iran had transferred to Iraqi insurgents” and “hundreds of newly-produced Iranian PG-7-AT1 rocket-propelled grenades that contain Chinese-made base detonators” that had been “repeatedly fired at Coalition forces” by Shia militants.
China is by no means the only country accused of failing to implement export controls on arms and materials sales to Iran. In April 2009 the ambassador to the EU in Brussels noted concerns that smaller EU member states were failing to take seriously enough the threat posed by Iran.
One EU official told US diplomats that he had to “continually remind” European countries “that the situation is dangerous and unabated will lead to nuclear war in the Middle East”.
Later the same year the German computer firm Siemens was forced to recall 111 boxes of computers that it had sold to a Chinese company linked to Iran’s nuclear programme. A cable from the US Embassy in Berlin noted: “Siemens needs to be more careful about whom they sell to,” though it had “technically” done nothing wrong, as the computers were not controlled export items.
The US also raised concerns about the French firm Sofradir selling infrared detectors to a Chinese firm that were being used in thermal imaging systems sold on by China to Iran.

wrt to India, maoists and the other insurgents in north east have to be included to the list of dlagon supplies.
Christopher Sidor
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by Christopher Sidor »

2011 PLA Military Training: Toward Greater Interoperability. Please refer to the article on page 8.

A beautiful article which goes into quite detail about the recent annual training exercises undertaken by PLA/PLAAF/PLAAN. Some pointers as far as India is concerned
In MISSION ACTION-2010A, a Beijing MR group army traveled to the Taonan CATT base in Shenyang MR to train. Accompanying the ground forces throughout the exercise was a Beijing MR Air Force air regiment, conducting almost 70 sorties during the exercise (Xinhua News Agency, January 18). Compared with the 2006 exercise that followed a similar route, but in reverse, it is clear that the scale of training has increased both quantitatively and qualitatively, expanding from a mechanized infantry brigade to select elements of a group army.
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2010 also saw several international joint exercises, including anti-terror exercise PEACE MISSION-2010 (HEPING SHIMING-2010) held in Kazakhstan, which featured the participation of the J-10 fighter. Other joint anti-terror exercises, FRIENDSHIP-2010 (YOUYI-2010), held in Ningxia with Pakistani forces, and COOPERATION-2010 (HEZUO-2010), with Singaporean forces, also were held in 2010. Two Sino-Thai joint anti-terror exercises involved marines and special forces units from both militaries. Beyond Asia, the PLA also engaged with the Romanian military in mountain operations, Peruvian forces in a joint humanitarian rescue operation, PEACE ANGEL-2010 (HEPING TIANSHI-2010), and with Turkish forces in two major exercises, which included the long-distance deployment of SU-27s
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The past two years have seen an emphasis on air-ground coordination. In 2011, we may see more involvement from the Navy or Naval Aviation forces, People’s Armed Police, militia, or civilian organs. As the PLA formalizes a new "joint logistics system" that relies partly on civilian sourcing, we can expect to see more local governments involved in supporting exercises.
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The concept of specialized joint echelons, such as the Joint Campaign Formation (lianhe zhanyi juntuan) and Joint Tactical Corps (lianhe zhanshu bingtuan) evolved from several Jinan MR exercises beginning in 2004. The Joint Campaign Formation encompasses group army- and equivalent campaign-level forces while the Joint Tactical Corps groups together tactical-level forces, such as ground divisions and brigades, air divisions, and naval flotillas.
What this means is unlike 1962, where we basically faced the PLA and not PLAAF or PLAAN forces, once this decade gets over (i.e. 2010-2019) we will face a combined armed formation of china. Please note that I am being optimistic over here that China might take a decade to master this operational doctrine. This way not only will our north-eastern and north-western Himalayan border be under Chinese threat but it is probable, with Burma under Chinese influence, our eastern sea board and the Andaman & Nicobar islands might also face the Chinese threat.

As it is, if the Chinese are able to deploy even a rudimentary ASBM system, the Bay of Bengal will not even remain an Indian pond and our dream of blocking the oil & gas flowing to china through the Malacca straits using our naval surface fleet might get a quite burial.

Also previously Chinese might not been able to reinforce their forces with men and material from other Chinese military regions, but going forward we should not assume this to be the case.
Kanson
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by Kanson »

x-post

JAPAN RESPONDS TO CHINA’S THREATENING RISE
Guest Column: By Rajeev Sharma
For quite some time, Japan has been watching with trepidation China’s aggressive military posturing in South and East China Seas and the Western Pacific. The Chinese behaviour has become all the greater cause of concern for the Japanese as China has peppered its military moves with a hard-nosed diplomacy. The Japanese concern became clear when Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh paid a bilateral visit to Japan late last year and Japanese Prime Minister Naoto Kan asked him how to deal with China. Manmohan Singh told him: keep China engaged through diplomacy while simultaneously bolstering your economy and defence. {Is it :?: }

The inevitable happened and the Japanese government announced on December 17, 2010 its National Defence Programme Guidelines in response to China’s increased defence spending. Unsurprisingly, Japan’s new guidelines refer to Chinese pro-active naval activities as a "matter of concern for the region and the international community," and aim to fortifying the defences of the Nansei Islands--Okinawa Prefecture and Kagoshima Prefecture, which have witnessed unusual Chinese military activities in 2010. The development marks a paradigm shift in Japan’s defence policy as now Japan will be deploying F-15 fighter jets to a SDF base in Okinawa Prefecture and permanently stationing Ground Self-Defense Force troops to the hitherto defenceless southernmost island, something that no Japanese government dared to do for fear of arousing China’s wrath.

China is to blame itself for triggering an expensive arms race in the region by its dangerous brinkmanship that has woken up a much more technologically superior power like Japan. China is following in the footsteps of Soviet Union which diverted huge parts of its GDP to imaginary defence needs at the cost of raising the Gross Happiness Product of its citizens. With its needlessly aggressive diplomacy, China has forced Japan to reverse its 65-year-old policy of self-defence and embark on a new concept of "dynamic defence capabilities" as formulated by the new National Defence Programme Guidelines. It is now only a matter of time when Japan will take three more steps that will bug China no end: (i) formation of a National Security Council to formulate comprehensive security policies; (ii) lifting its self-imposed ban on arms exports and participation in international joint weaponry production; and (iii) increasing its defence cooperation with like-minded China-wary regional powers and seek newer allies other than the US.

Since 1945, Japan had been maintaining only minimum defence capabilities. Now, under the new guidelines Japan will be "increasing the activity" of its defence hardware and "clearly demonstrating" its advanced capabilities. The new guidelines lay out three security objectives: (i) prevention of external threats from reaching Japanese shores by Japan’s "own efforts"; (ii) neutralization of external threats by improving international security architecture with cooperation from allies; and (iii) securing global peace and stability by "multi-layered security cooperation with the international community" in a consolidated manner.
Japan Vs China Today = France Vs Germany Before World War II?
Winston Churchill foresaw the decline of French military power and the rapid strides made by Hitler’s Germany way back in 1935 when he had not yet become the Prime Minister of Britain. Churchill confided in a French writer, Andre Maurois that the French Air Force, which used to be the best in the world, had slipped to 4th or 5th spot and the German Air Force was fast emerging as the world’s best air force. Churchill told Maurois that this posed a threat to France, something that eventually happened five years later. Germany invaded France and occupied over sixty per cent of the French territory for four years until 1944.

Substitute France for Japan and China for Germany and you get the picture of 2010. Maurois has recorded Churchill’s warning in his book "Tragedy in France" that was first published in the United States in 1940. Significantly, the book’s Japanese edition came out in 2005 when China was not seen as posing a threat to Japan. The comparison of France and Germany just before the 2nd World War with Japan and China in 2010 does not end here. Today Japan too has had a series of weak and short-lived governments just as France did before World War II.

For almost a quarter century, China has consistently been raising its military expenditure by 10 percent or so every year. China is now planning to build its own aircraft carrier and has been upgrading its fighter planes and submarines like the one possessed. China has been beefing up its military muscle with not just an eye on Japan, but the United States as well. A demonstration of this came in the third week of December 2010 when China successfully tested and deployed the world’s first weapon system that can target a moving carrier strike group from land-based, long-range mobile launchers. This is aimed at American as well as Japanese navies.

The Chinese have attracted a lot of negative attention from the international community ever since a Chinese trawler collided with two Japan Coast Guard vessels near the Senkaku Islands in the East China Sea in September 2010. The Chinese resorted to highly aggressive diplomacy when the Japanese impounded the Chinese trawler and arrested the crew members. Japan failed to show pluck and meekly surrendered to the Chinese threats of "dire consequences" if the crew and the trawler were not released forthwith. Even after their release, China continued to up its ante and demanded an apology. This time Japan did not oblige. This prompted China to take its gunboat diplomacy to a higher level. A month after the Senkaku Islands episode, the Chinese military aircraft have routinely been harassing the Japanese Self-Defence Forces’ aircraft over the East China Sea.

The new Chinese behavior has naturally raised tensions in the region as the Japanese Air Self Defence Force has ordered its fighter aircraft to scramble every time the Chinese have resorted to provocative air activities. As of December 22, 2010, the Japanese Air SDF has launched scrambles 44 times, the highest figure in the past five years. An indication of what has triggered the change in China’s policy came from a report in a Chinese military organ that said that China does not "consider its EEZ (Economic Exclusive Zone) to be part of international waters." This clearly means that China is set to flex its military muscle to keep foreign military personnel (read Japan and the US) out of Chinese EEZ.
{Few pages back, I asked this question. If China becomes Germany, who could be Britain, France, Czechoslovakia, Austria, Poland etc. Now i got the answer that France is Japan. In my view, Czech will be Taiwan and Austria will be Pakistan. If Paksitan is Austira, then India will be ?}

WHAT NEXT?
It is clear that China's self-avowed "peaceful rise" has hardly been "peaceful" – and that too so early in its journey towards superpower status. Japan has already starting reaching out to major powers in the region and has embarked upon a substantive and sustained up gradation of its security and defence ties with such countries as India, Australia, South Korea and Vietnam.

India and Australia will be the key for Japan in this context. Japan needs to once again take the lead and revive the Quadrilateral Initiative (involving Japan, the US, Australia and India) –a strategic baby that was conceived in 2007 and aborted in early 2008. Australia had then acted as the party spoiler. The then Australian Prime Minister Kevin Rudd had rocked the boat of the Quad Initiative, apparently at the behest of China.

China has started realizing that its assertive diplomacy and aggressive military maneuverings have set the cat among the pigeons and is keen to make amends. As a result, it sent Premier Wen Jiabao to India (December 15-17, 2010) even after India’s Oslo rebuff to China on December 10 when the Indian envoy in Norway did attend the Nobel Peace Prize award-giving ceremony despite China’s request to India to skip the function. China has declared its plans to revive military-to-military relations with the US after a year-long suspension of the ties.

Japan's Kyodo news agency reported on February 4, 2011 that China and Japan are considering holding a vice ministerial-level meeting later this month to discuss ways of avoiding a repeat of the Senkaku Islands incident last September . The Kyodo report said: 'Along with maritime safety measures, especially around the Senkaku Islands in the East China Sea, the two sides are likely to discuss Japan's new defense policy outline, stalled bilateral talks concerning a treaty on joint gas field drilling in the East China Sea, and tensions on the Korean Peninsula, according to the sources.' The talks may well be a dialogue of the deaf as both sides claim full ownership of Senkaku Island (called Diaoyu Islands by China), but the important thing is that China has nudged Japan to the negotiating table and Japan has agreed.

However, this is too little, too late. China needs to show to the world that it is a responsible, restrained and mature global power and not a fire-spewing dragon.
kmc_chacko
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by kmc_chacko »

Its quite strange that when all the neighbors of taking care of the threat of future GoI is wasting its time for 2G spectrum & black money trail which will yield nothing other than waste of tax payers money. These two cases are just example because Bofors case made Army to delay the purchase of new Field Guns yet after 15 years no one arrested and no action is taken till date and yet Parliament is stalled in the name of Bofors.

Due to not buying howitzer now army faces shortage of guns at China front. GoI reevaluate its attitude towards modernization and make way for inducting new equipments for Defense forces.
ramana
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by ramana »

LINK

FINANCIAL TIMES
Entranced by China’s bubbling economy

By Edward Chancellor

Published: February 6 2011 10:31 | Last updated: February 6 2011 10:31
George Orwell once accused fellow socialists of playing with fire without knowing fire was hot. The same could be said of investors who are repeatedly drawn towards speculative bubbles without understanding the risks.

Even the experience of several great bubbles over the last quarter of a century – from Japan’s bubble economy of the late 1980s through to the global credit spree of the past decade – hasn’t made them any wiser. Today, investors are entranced with China’s apparently glorious prospects. Yet they are ignoring the dangers posed by China’s overheated property market.

Bubbles can be identified before they burst using simple valuation tools. But numbers alone don’t tell the whole story. Investors also need an intellectual framework to understand the dynamics of bubbles. A new book, Boombustology (Wiley) by Vikram Mansharamani provides an excellent overview of the leading work in this field.

Mr Mansharamani starts out with George Soros’s theory of reflexivity. According to Mr Soros, markets are determined by a “two-way feedback mechanism in which reality helps shape the participants’ thinking process and the participants’ thinking helps shape reality”. Chaos rules as errors of perception feed back into reality.

The financial instability hypothesis of the late Hyman Minsky complements Mr Soros’s reflexivity. Mr Minsky’s famous “Ponzi finance” theory describes a situation in which already inflated asset prices can only be sustained by further price appreciation and ever increasing leverage. When the flow of credit dries up, Ponzi finance structures collapse.

According to Mr Minsky, when Ponzi finance is widespread the economy is likely to develop into a “deviation-amplifying system”. All great bubbles have easy money and growing leverage. Mr Mansharamani turns to Friedrich Hayek and the Austrian economists to show how inappropriately low interest rates fuel credit growth and over-investment.

Behavioural psychology also helps explain why bubbles develop. Humans have a chronic tendency to overconfidence. We underestimate the probability of events that we haven’t recently experienced (what’s known as the “availability heuristic”). For instance, in Japan in the late 1980s and again in the US in the early 2000s, it was generally believed house prices could not fall because they had been on a continuously rising trend in earlier decades.

Mr Mansharamani surveys recent research into swarm behaviour in the insect world. While ants lay and follow trails of pheromone, the speculative crowd follows a trail of recently minted money. Politics provides yet another prism for identifying bubbles. Great speculative booms are often stimulated by governments, sometimes with the intent of lining the pockets of public officials. All bubbles are accompanied by fraud.

China today has the characteristics of a truly great bubble. The value of the housing stock is set to exceed 350 per cent of GDP this year, the same level as Japan at the height of its real estate bubble. Construction accounts for around one-quarter of economic activity in China, which by coincidence is the same level that Ireland attained before its dramatic implosion.

A reflexive process appears to be at work as the anticipation of future Chinese economic growth drives new construction, while new construction drives economic growth.

Ponzi finance proliferates in China. Wasteful infrastructure projects are funded with bank loans and land grants from local governments, which themselves depend on land sales for the bulk of their income. Chinese banks bypass credit restrictions by securitising loans to developers, while state-owned enterprises boost profits by dabbling in real estate. China’s financial system has become in Mr Minsky’s phrase a “deviation-amplifying system”. When land prices stop rising and real estate credit dries up, non-performing loans are likely to surge.

China’s asset price inflation has been driven by artificially low interest rates, which is contributing to a massive misallocation of capital into investment projects with palpably low returns. This bubble is the product of government policy. The construction boom was instigated to cushion the Chinese economy from shock waves of the global financial crisis.

Because Chinese property has risen continuously over the past decade, most people assume prices will rise indefinitely. Yet the newly constructed apartments in many Chinese cities are unaffordable to anyone but the rich elite, speculators have acquired millions of apartments that are currently sitting empty, while a glut of new supply is set to hit the market this year.

Beijing is trying to control the runaway housing boom with restrictions on housing speculation and tighter credit.

Mr Soros said speculative bubbles continue until the misperceptions of investors are so glaring they can no longer be ignored. In China, we may not be far from that point.

Edward Chancellor is a member of the asset allocation team at investment manager GMO
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by Christopher Sidor »

^^^
When Japan finally imploded after 1989, it was because it had reached a growth plateau. It had become a rich country. And there was no more juice to be squeezed out of the hard-working japs. Ireland also was a rich country and is still a rich country. Both of these countries are unlikely to see the fantastic growth they had seen in the past. But w.r.t China the situation is different. China is still a lower income country and not even a middle income country, like Greece. So China has still some way to go before it hits the wall.

What China has to worry about is not asset bubble burst but rather social harmony. Egypt and Tunisian revolutions were driven mostly by price rise or inflation. The 1989 Tiananmen incident in Peking was also driven partly by the inflation, which had allegedly crossed 20%.

What I am not saying is that Japan's fate will not befell China. China's development strategy looks likes Japans on steroids. And because China knows what japan went through after 1989, I hope that it will be able to avoid a similar fate. Japan was able to undergo more than a decade of stagnant growth because of its unique cultural and democratic institutions. China, which is essentially a dictatorship, non-monolithic and culturally diverse will not be able to whether such a downturn.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by ramana »

From RamN

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/op ... 6000381520

THE AUSTRALIAN

Time to beat China at its own game

* Greg Sheridan, Foreign editor
* From: The Australian
* February 05, 2011

THERE is an almost mathematical elegance to Ross Babbage's vitally important new paper, Australia's Strategic Edge in 2030, to be published on Monday.

The veteran defence analyst wants Australia to do to China what China is doing to the US. China recognises that it could never defeat the US in a full-on, force-on-force conflict. But it can make it incredibly costly and dangerous for the US to operate its military in the western Pacific.

China achieves this by adopting "asymmetric" warfare. Asymmetry simply means big versus small. Asymmetric warfare is a way for the weaker party in a conflict to inflict crippling costs on the strong party.

China is doing this to the US through cyber warfare, space warfare, submarines and missiles. The Chinese strategy is called anti-access area denial. It is aimed at destroying US computer-based capabilities through cyber warfare. It is aimed at destroying US satellites through space warfare.

As Babbage comments, the Western way of war depends on vast flows of digital information from the battle space via satellite so that precision weapons can be targeted at the enemy. If in a conflict China can destroy US satellites, it can destroy a good measure of US technical superiority and dominance.

Then there are missiles. China can use missiles, and submarines, to threaten US aircraft carrier battle groups that deploy in Asia.

Missiles have another particular application for China. Much of the US military position in Asia rests on the giant US bases in Okinawa and Guam.

If Beijing decided to strike the US pre-emptively, it could rain down missiles on these two islands, destroying many of the US's regional military assets.

All up, Babbage believes that the massive build-up of China's People's Liberation Army has transformed the strategic environment in Asia so that US military superiority in the region, and Australia's own security, are profoundly threatened.

Here is where the elegance in Babbage's thinking comes in. There are certain, vitally important, things we can do to help sustain the US position in Asia. One of the most important is to host more US forces here. This makes the US presence in Asia more dispersed, harder to hit, more survivable.

But the other thing we can do, according to Babbage, is to emulate the Chinese themselves. We cannot replicate the full range of Chinese military capabilities. We have neither the size nor the money to do so.

Instead, we should develop our own asymmetric approach to China, such that Australia could inflict massive cost and damage on China in the event of a conflict.

It is important to emphasise that Babbage is not advocating confrontation with China. He does not believe conflict between the US and China is either imminent or even likely. He favours the strongest positive engagement with China, and also with its neighbours.

But Beijing has built all these new military assets in order to give it the ability to strike and hurt the US, and perhaps cripple the US military in Asia, if it wants to.

In doing all this, Beijing has transformed the strategic environment. It can hardly object if other nations hedge against this possibility by developing their own capabilities.

In order to maximise our asymmetric position against China, Babbage proposes significant changes to our force structure.

He wants a massive investment in cyber warfare capabilities, in order to protect our own assets and if necessary attack Chinese systems. While the detail of this would be kept secret, the broad scope of the program would be known, and would give any potential adversary pause.

Babbage would like us to acquire a fleet of 12 nuclear-powered attack submarines from the US. This would have countless advantages for Australia. We wouldn't have all the financial and technical risk of developing our own orphan class of subs, as we did with the Collins class subs. Being well-established US kit, the maintenance of the nuclear subs would be straightforward.

Top-of-the-line US nuclear subs are the queens of the species. They run deeper, faster and quieter than conventional subs. They're hard to hit, and deadly. They also offer this particular advantage. They would be a massive force multiplier to the US position in the region. Indeed, Babbage thinks they would be a game-changer. And we would supplement them with smaller, unmanned submarine capabilities.

But if for some reason we ever did need to mount a serious operation on our own, without active US involvement, the nuclear sub fleet gives us an awesome capability of our own. They work for us with the Americans, or without.

And because they are an established part of an existing US capability, we would have a much greater chance of keeping nine or so of them in the water at any one time. This is in great contrast to the Collins subs, where we have often struggled to have one or two boats in the water out of a notional six.

In extremis, a fleet of 12 nuclear subs could do terrible damage to the Chinese navy, or to Chinese shipping more generally. It hardly needs be said that Babbage, like all civilised human beings, wants profoundly to avoid any conflict with China. The existence of an Australian fleet of nuclear submarines would help the Chinese avoid tragic miscalculation.

Another asymmetric capability Babbage would acquire is missiles; ballistic and cruise missiles that could be fired from Australian "arsenal ships".

The Chinese have made a massive investment in missiles as a quintessential asymmetric weapon. Missiles with conventional warheads offer many benefits to militaries. They allow very rapid, very powerful strikes on almost any part of any battlefield.

They can have a strategic effect when used in large numbers, as say the Chinese taking out US bases in Guam or Okinawa. But even in lesser numbers, they can have strategic effects - for example in degrading command and control structures, or even targeting a national leadership.

Above all, any potential adversary never knows in advance what you will do with your missiles.

Even Babbage's proposal for Australia to host more US bases has an asymmetric element. The US alliance is the most important element of Australia's security. If the US position in Asia weakens, however, there might be some doubt about US participation in a dispute involving Australia. The increased presence of US facilities here would make any potential adversary think it more likely that fighting Australia would also engage the Americans.

Put this, and much else that Babbage suggests, all together and Australia has a serious capacity, should circumstances ever require, to inflict substantial damage on China. This in itself would make conflict much less likely ever to occur.

While Babbage's recommendations for Australia's force structure are likely to gain most attention, it is actually his crisp, detailed and brilliant exposition of what the Chinese have done to the strategic environment that really deserves most consideration.

In fact, there is no single document on China that I would more strongly recommend all Australians to read than Babbage's paper.

His bottom-line strategic assessment is that the "challenge posed by the rising PLA is arguably one of the most serious that has confronted Australia's national security planners since the second world war".

Babbage does not consider at length the motivation of China's leaders for building such a vast military force. Chinese motivation is impossible to calculate definitively. And in any event motivation can change over time. For defence planners, capability is more important than motivation. It is also worth noting that seldom in history has a military the size of China's been built and not used.

But although it is widely known that China has expanded its military, few are aware of the staggering scale of this transformation.

Babbage reels off some of the changes the Chinese have wrought: "The assumption that the United States and its close allies will continue to enjoy an operational sanctuary in space is in serious doubt. The PLA is actively engaged in programs to degrade or destroy the US command, control and communications, the intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance, and the navigational systems that are mostly space-based and critical for US and Australian military operations."

Or: "The assumption that US operational bases in Guam, Japan and elsewhere will enjoy high levels of security is crumbling. This is primarily because the PLA is fielding ballistic and cruise missiles . . . designed to strike all these locations with precision."

Or: "US aircraft carrier strike groups and other surface vessels are becoming increasingly vulnerable up to 1200 nautical miles from China's coast."

A couple of other facts are worth noting. Babbage doesn't make much of it but China is on course to double or triple its nuclear weapons arsenal by 2030. Why is it, alone among the nuclear powers, doing this?

Already, Australia is in direct range of many Chinese weapons, so the PLA's expansion directly affects the defence of continental Australia.

While Babbage's report is very sobering, it is hardly as if the Americans are asleep while all this Chinese military activity is going on.

The Americans are developing their own air-sea battle plan that would seek to wipe out many of China's capabilities at the start of a conflict.

One of the areas Beijing is most active in is cyber warfare, with reports of tens of thousands of Chinese cyber infiltration attacks every day.

It is impossible to know how the cyber element of a conflict would play out. But it would be important. It could, as Babbage suggests, be as important as the enigma code-breaking efforts were in World War II.

Babbage has written one of the most important, deeply considered and logically compelling strategic documents ever seen in Australia.

It should be the starting point of a broad national debate.

NOTE: Ross Babbage's paper on Australia's Strategic Edge in 2030 is a priced publication -- details available at http://www.kokodafoundation.org/Latest- ... bmi=516733
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by Prem »

ramana wrote:From RamN

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/op ... 6000381520
NOTE: Ross Babbage's paper on Australia's Strategic Edge in 2030 is a priced publication -- details available at http://www.kokodafoundation.org/Latest- ... bmi=516733
Funny, i said something similar for India to do in Deterrent Dhaga. Chinese have lot more to loose in any war scenario. Having the capabilty and political strength for harassing them under water will go long way in modifying their behavior.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by sanjaykumar »

Seems more like Australian fantasies to me.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by tejas »

Getting tired of these Aussies attempting to punch above their weight. This is like Venezuela trying to take on Umrikah. Their exaggerated sense of self-worth is nauseating. Just stick to exporting rocks and minerals found under the land you stole from the native population and STFU.

On a side note, the GOI should tell these white man's burden enthusiasts that not only is their hope of a FTA with India a pipe dream but also make India's vast market off limits till they start groveling about selling uranium to us. BTW India is now Australia's 3rd largest export market. I have still not gotten over their patronizing/arrogant lecturing following PoK I. Remember one of thier US supplied aircraft buzzed the INS Delhi on one of its first shakedown runs? We can't make Uncle eat humble pie yet (hopefully I will see that in my lifetime) but no time like the present to start off with some poodles.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by AKalam »

Oceania is a gora outpost, fully under protection from the rest. Even the slavs will stick together with the gora's of oirostan and Nord Amriki when other hostile powers rise in neighboring Eurasian landmass. This piece of bluster confirms this long term trend onlee.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by ShauryaT »

FWIW.
'China ready to go to war to safeguard national interests'
Terming US attempts to woo India and other neighbours of China as "unbearable," an article in a Communist party magazine has said that Beijing must send a "clear signal" to these countries that it is ready to go to war to safeguard its national interests.

The article published in the Qiushi Journal, the official publication of the ruling Communist Party of China (CPC) said China must adhere to a basic strategic principle of not initiating war but being ready to counterattack.

"We must send a clear signal to our neighbouring countries that we don't fear war, and we are prepared at any time to go to war to safeguard our national interests," the article said, suggesting an aggressive strategy to counter emerging US alliances in the region.


Read more: 'China ready to go to war to safeguard national interests' - The Times of India http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/worl ... z1DkX7n8SV
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by Prem »

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/02/ ... F920110212
Diplomacy stalemate over North Korea's nuclear programme
Reuters) - China does not back efforts by Washington and Seoul to punish North Korea at the United Nations for its uranium enrichment programme and wants six-party talks to deal with the issue, a top South Korean envoy said on Saturday.International disagreement over how to deal with the North's growing nuclear capability comes just days after inter-Korean talks collapsed, as diplomatic efforts to defuse simmering tensions on the divided peninsula faltered.The six-party talks, which offer Pyongyang aid and diplomatic recognition in return for disabling its nuclear weapons programme, were last held two years ago. They collapsed when the North quit in protest against U.N. sanctions for its nuclear and missile tests.
The six-way talks started in 2003 and are chaired by China, and also involve the United States, Japan and Russia
.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by Prem »

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld ... 1862.story
Beijing looks warily at Egypt uprising
Wary of the parallels between Tahrir and Tiananmen, Beijing is hardly celebrating the popular uprising in Egypt that brought down an authoritarian regime.The Chinese government offered a sobering assessment Saturday of Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak's resignation. Foreign Ministry spokesman Ma Zhaoxu said in a statement that China hoped "the latest developments help restore national stability and social order at an early date."
News coverage of the 18-day uprising has emphasized looting, rioting and violence, while downplaying the jubilation of the protesters in Cairo's Tahrir Square. A short editorial Saturday in the state-run English-language China Daily used the word "stability," a favorite of the Chinese Communist Party, seven times. It warned that "any political changes will be meaningless if the country falls prey to chaos in the end."
But Chinese dissidents and critics greeted Mubarak's downfall with undisguised glee.
"Today, we are all Egyptian,'' Ai Weiwei, a dissident and artist, said in a Twitter posting. "It only took 18 days for the collapse of a military regime which was in power for 30 years and looked harmonious and stable. This thing [the Chinese government] that has been for 60 years may take several months.''
In a bold retort to the party's rhetoric about stability, the influential new business magazine Caixin editorialized on its Web page Saturday: "It is autocracy that creates chaos, while democracy breeds peace. Supporting an autocracy is in reality trading short-term interests for long-term costs." From the beginning of the protests in Egypt last month, the Chinese propaganda machine sought to limit and direct coverage. Although the story was too big to expunge, news media were directed to run reports only from the state-run New China News Agency. On some social networking sites, searches for the word "Egypt" were blocked.As in Egypt, China's leadership in 1989 was challenged by a nationwide, popular uprising
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by Christopher Sidor »

Three Dimensionality in Chinese Views on India and Space

The above 30 minute video is from a researcher at the James Martin Center For Nonproliferation Studies at Monterey Institute of International Studies - a graduate school of Middlebury College in Monterey, California, USA. This video is an indepth look at how China views India.

Some of the notable points from the video I have given below
  • Majority of the focus on India is in the academic journals very little in strategic journals. Though it is increasing in the strategic journals
  • There seems to be a steady de-hyphening of India-Pakistan.
  • Chinese are either dismissive of India, by talking about the "Great power dream" or by characterizing India as a "Petulant child"
  • The researcher has expressed surprise about anger and vituperation against china in India, especially in seminars and discussions. This is in contrast to the non charged vocabulary coming out of china unlike india. Please note that this refers only to the publications from academic and strategic circles only. It does not refer to forums like bharat-rakshak or indiadefence or globaltimes, etc.
  • Chinese ASAT was being used as justification in india for a asat programme of her own.
  • Chinese view their ASAT capability in terms of being pushed towards it as russia and us have long standing asat capabilities or programs.
  • Chinese also view their ASAT capability as a means to get the Americans to return to the conference of disarmament. Or to make Americans treat them at-par with russia or as an equal of America.
  • Chinese are surprised at the lack of interaction with India. In most indo-china conferences most of the academics come from china, but from india most of the strategist come. So there is a discordant note, as the academic will come with a different viewpoint rather than the strategist.
  • A number of chinese academic personnel have trouble getting visas to come to India. Not only in scientific community but across the board. From India the problem of stapled visas, arunachal pradesh, etc rear their head.
  • Stability and cooperation. There is a lot talk about this in China. Pity the researcher did not elaborate.
  • While there is growing spotlight on India, it has more to do with indo-us relationship. the interest has always peaked when clinton came to India, when the indo-us nuke deal was discussed, with obama visited India. In other words it is Indo-US combine which concerns them not India per-se as such.
  • We tend to group all the views as unidirectional view. But there are significant pockets of views on India in china. Pockets whose views are varied.
The salient points given above are the authors conclusion and not mine.

The problem with this presentation is the asymetrical nature of the political systems. While in India one would get away with speaking anything the same is not the case in China. So this background has to be kept in mind before any conclusions are drawn from this video or the salient points that I have mentioned above.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by Rony »

Nice catch Christopher !

Here is the follow up Q&A session video

Some notable points :

1. Indian scientific journals has no mention of China while Chinese scientific journals have a fair amount of coverage about India.

2. Indian journals are vague with respect to Chinese activities ( she took the example of m-9 and m-11 and says that Indians use these as a catch phrase but dont give or mention much details. On the other hand, the Chinese have far more degree of scrutiny of Indian activities in missile and aerospace programmes and tend to go into and document to the minute detail level.

3. The focui point for the chinese in terms of India's big projects is India's naval development- aircraft carriers, nuclear submarines, SLBMs, second strike capabilites. That is constantly mentioned by many chinese to the author in their talks.The Chinese catch phrase here is 'Indian ocean becoming India's ocean'.

4.China is more concerned about the sea lanes with respect to India, India is more concerned about the land border with respect to china. China is taking a long term view of what India can do that might effect china's development like shipping lanes, energy export etc. on the other hand,India is more concentrating w.r.t china on border issues.

5. The author had more access to chinese documents and chinese experts than she had access with Indian documents. The reason she gave was that in India, many of the experts she met themselves dont have access to classified documents.

6. Indian experts focus more on china exporting technologies to other countries (like pakistan) compared to focus on the development of technologies within china itself. Indian experts talk more about Sino-Pakistani cooperation compared to the chinese talking about India and Pakistan on the same breadth.

7. Whenver the Chinese documents and experts talk about pakistan, they talk about instability, terrorism issues etc and nothing big picture questions. This research was done before the reports about Pakistan increasing their nuclear stockpile came up.

8. China related knowledge in India is scarce because of lack of language training etc but that is improving.There is lot of open material available in chinese. Some one only has to learn the language and can access it. No such problems on the Chinese side.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by Prem »

China tries to stamp out 'Jasmine Revolution'
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110220/ap_ ... revolution
BEIJING – Jittery Chinese authorities wary of any domestic dissent staged a show of force Sunday to squelch a mysterious online call for a "Jasmine Revolution," with only a handful of people joining protests apparently modeled on the pro-democracy demonstrations sweeping the Middle East.
Authorities detained activists, increased the number of police on the streets, disconnected some cell phone text messaging services and censored Internet postings about the call to stage protests in Beijing, Shanghai and 11 other major cities.Police took at least three people away in Beijing, one of whom tried to place white jasmine flowers on a planter while hundreds of people milled about the protest gathering spot, outside a McDonald's on the capital's busiest shopping street. In Shanghai, police led away three people near the planned protest spot after they scuffled in an apparent bid to grab the attention of passers-by.any activists said they didn't know who was behind the campaign and weren't sure what to make of the call to protest, which first circulated Saturday on the U.S.-based Chinese-language news website Boxun.com.
The unsigned notice called for a "Jasmine Revolution" — the name given to the Tunisian protest movement — and urged people "to take responsibility for the future." Participants were urged to shout, "We want food, we want work, we want housing, we want fairness" — a slogan that highlights common complaints among Chinese.
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