China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 10 Feb 2011 06:10

Actually PAF-FA looks more like a poor man's F-15

Someone actually missed the memo? Wow!!!

Not even close.

Besides, BOTH the PAK-FA and the J20 are tech demos. What comes out of them will be seen around 2020ish.

wen · Post by **wen** » 10 Feb 2011 06:11

NRao wrote:
Actually PAF-FA looks more like a poor man's F-15

Someone actually missed the memo? Wow!!!

Not even close.

Besides, BOTH the PAK-FA and the J20 are tech demos. What comes out of them will be seen around 2020ish.

This is rich from a guy who has the nerve claiming J-20 looks like a MiG-1.44

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 10 Feb 2011 06:12

wen wrote: You can find a copy of this paper here, althrough unfornatuely it is written in Chinese:

http://club.china.com/data/thread/1013/ ... 0/8_1.html

Very informative. OK the J-20 is very stealthy. Well done. Congratulations.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 10 Feb 2011 06:15

Actually there are papers on this issue.

Np body is contesting that.

One poster stated that to even make changes to a copied design needs wind tunnel models, etc. By extension papers have to be written too. Granted.

This is rich from a guy who has the nerve claiming J-20 looks like a MiG-1.44

AND the F-22, and ...... and ...... and a wind tunnel model + a few papers.

Like I said, we will see what comes out in 2020 or so.

I am a bit disappointed China didnt bring their latest planes to aero india.

That is way beyond a 15 min flight. Besides what has India done, unlike a visiting dignitary who had to inform their civilian leadership that they had tested?

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 10 Feb 2011 06:19

wen wrote: Actually there are papers on this issue.

For instance, a paper written by scholars from a top graduate school in aero-science/engineering in China, quantitiviely estimated an average convential designed canards (e.g. without the consideration of aligment with main wings, etc), just with an average RAM coating developed China, during cruise phase (not dog-fight, which means the canards will move within +/- 20 degrees), will only introudce a RCS at the magntiude of ~0.001 m^2.

I seriously doubt either F-22 or PAK-FA can achieve this level of RCS, since the research in China shows that F-22's caret intakes itself will introduce a frontal RCS of near 0.05 m^2 level, let along PAK-FA's su-27ish intakes, which introduces a frontal RCS of near 0.5-1 m^2 alone.

Thats why the Chinese estiamted the raw F-22's frontal RCS (with RAM coating but without active "stealth" or electriconc countermeasures) will be actually around 0.1 m^2.

You can find a copy of this paper here, althrough unfornatuely it is written in Chinese:

http://club.china.com/data/thread/1013/ ... 0/8_1.html

I always suspected that Noshir Gowadia dude was a Raaa-agint!!! If this is the stuff he sold to the Chinese, he deserves a medal from both India and US.

Amidst all the pole dancing displayed by Americans and Europeans at AeroIndia for us, you are trying to grab attention our attention with a chubby chick wearing a silver tutu?

wen · Post by **wen** » 10 Feb 2011 06:25

hnair wrote:
wen wrote: Actually there are papers on this issue.

For instance, a paper written by scholars from a top graduate school in aero-science/engineering in China, quantitiviely estimated an average convential designed canards (e.g. without the consideration of aligment with main wings, etc), just with an average RAM coating developed China, during cruise phase (not dog-fight, which means the canards will move within +/- 20 degrees), will only introudce a RCS at the magntiude of ~0.001 m^2.

I seriously doubt either F-22 or PAK-FA can achieve this level of RCS, since the research in China shows that F-22's caret intakes itself will introduce a frontal RCS of near 0.05 m^2 level, let along PAK-FA's su-27ish intakes, which introduces a frontal RCS of near 0.5-1 m^2 alone.

Thats why the Chinese estiamted the raw F-22's frontal RCS (with RAM coating but without active "stealth" or electriconc countermeasures) will be actually around 0.1 m^2.

You can find a copy of this paper here, althrough unfornatuely it is written in Chinese:

http://club.china.com/data/thread/1013/ ... 0/8_1.html
I always suspected that Noshir Gowadia dude was a Raaa-agint!!! If this is the stuff he sold to the Chinese, he deserves a medal from both India and US.

Amidst all the pole dancing displayed by Americans and Europeans at AeroIndia for us, you are trying to grab attention our attention with a chubby chick wearing a silver tutu?

As for that indian's case, he is just trying to sell a few IR method used on B-2's engine nozzles and some USA's cruise missiles's engine nozzles, has nothing to do with the electriconcmagitdue stealth techs discussed here.

Actually I failed to see the logic here, since so many techs in the US is developed by Chinese americans and funded by Chinese money, whats wrong with claiming some ownership of some of these techs to save a few times and money?

wen · Post by **wen** » 10 Feb 2011 06:33

NRao wrote: AND the F-22, and ...... and ...... and a wind tunnel model + a few papers.

Like I said, we will see what comes out in 2020 or so.

In Nov of 2009, the vice-commander of China Airforce general claimed our own stealth fighter will conduct maiden flight soon and will be deployed between 2017-2019.

And roughly 1+ year later, we all saw J-20 is in the sky.

Unlike their russian counterparters, it seems that this Chinese general can talk and can deliver on time, if not earlier.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 10 Feb 2011 06:36

Actually I failed to see the logic here,

Noticed that long back. ........................ not polite on our part to state that......................... Like the J-20 there is a void of sorts........modifying copied design does lead to difficulties. It is inherent in the process. Sympathies are there for the taking.

Unlike their russian counterparters, it seems that this Chinese general can talk and can deliver on time, if not earlier.

Just goes to prove that it is easier to copy than to design. We knew that part some time back.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 10 Feb 2011 06:37

Wen,

It is OK. No harm.

wen · Post by **wen** » 10 Feb 2011 06:39

NRao wrote: Noticed that long back. ........................ not polite on our part to state that......................... Like the J-20 there is a void of sorts........modifying copied design does lead to difficulties. It is inherent in the process. Sympathies are there for the taking.

Dont waste our time, I bet we all know it is the Russians who copied.

Just goes to prove that it is easier to copy than to design. We knew that part some time back.

Thats why it takes forever for Russian to get out a hybrid son of F-15 and Su-27?

wen · Post by **wen** » 10 Feb 2011 06:40

NRao wrote:Wen,

It is OK. No harm.

Since when it is harming? I just feel amused by your rather creative and colorful claims

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 10 Feb 2011 06:43

Dang, why are you telling us this in 2011?

Anyways, I seriously think the J-20 is an achievement, even if it copied. It takes guts to copy and then modify to suit. You know, they have to build real wind tunnels, write papers (granted in languages we cannot read - hey such is life), build a tech demo, paint it, etc, etc, etc.

enjoy the flying breadbox.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 10 Feb 2011 06:46

wen wrote: Actually I failed to see the logic here, since so many techs in the US is developed by Chinese americans and funded by Chinese money, whats wrong with claiming some ownership of some of these techs to save a few times and money?

Dude, seriously, are you approved to hit post button?

wen · Post by **wen** » 10 Feb 2011 06:54

NRao wrote:Dang, why are you telling us this in 2011?

Anyways, I seriously think the J-20 is an achievement, even if it copied. It takes guts to copy and then modify to suit. You know, they have to build real wind tunnels, write papers (granted in languages we cannot read - hey such is life), build a tech demo, paint it, etc, etc, etc.

enjoy the flying breadbox.

I agree, thats why it takes so many years for russians to make a F-15 enhanced SU-27.

wen · Post by **wen** » 10 Feb 2011 06:55

hnair wrote:
wen wrote: Actually I failed to see the logic here, since so many techs in the US is developed by Chinese americans and funded by Chinese money, whats wrong with claiming some ownership of some of these techs to save a few times and money?
Dude, seriously, are you approved to hit post button?

We all know its not like American could afford to pay back all the money we loan to them so its fine to claim some ownership as a hedge to american's filed for bankrupty and defaults.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 10 Feb 2011 06:57

so its fine to claim some ownership

Glad to note you have come full circle.

Just that we called it copying. We did not know you had paid for it.

Good, now we all are on the same page.

Raveen · Post by **Raveen** » 10 Feb 2011 06:58

wen wrote:
NRao wrote:Dang, why are you telling us this in 2011?

Anyways, I seriously think the J-20 is an achievement, even if it copied. It takes guts to copy and then modify to suit. You know, they have to build real wind tunnels, write papers (granted in languages we cannot read - hey such is life), build a tech demo, paint it, etc, etc, etc.

enjoy the flying breadbox.
I agree, thats why it takes so many years for russians to make a F-15 enhanced SU-27.

Wen are you going to gt*o here?

Raveen · Post by **Raveen** » 10 Feb 2011 07:02

wen wrote: Actually I failed to see the logic here, since so many techs in the US is developed by Chinese americans and funded by Chinese money, whats wrong with claiming some ownership of some of these techs to save a few times and money
We all know its not like American could afford to pay back all the money we loan to them so its fine to claim some ownership as a hedge to american's filed for bankrupty and defaults.

Son, the US can't default on it's loans since the loans are in it's own currency (please watch Warren Buffet's interview), and if the Chinese ask for the cash and there are no more buyers of T-bill (not going to happen), they can basically devalue the dollar by printing all the money they owe you in debt and in the process pay off all your debt in one go without defaulting, this will undoubtedly tank their currency, but that would tank your economy too since you would be the ones holding all these $ that are devalued with no buyers in sight, you will own worthless paper if you try and cash your debt all at once...think about it before you post!

wen · Post by **wen** » 10 Feb 2011 08:46

Raveen wrote:
wen wrote: Actually I failed to see the logic here, since so many techs in the US is developed by Chinese americans and funded by Chinese money, whats wrong with claiming some ownership of some of these techs to save a few times and money
We all know its not like American could afford to pay back all the money we loan to them so its fine to claim some ownership as a hedge to american's filed for bankrupty and defaults.
Son, the US can't default on it's loans since the loans are in it's own currency (please watch Warren Buffet's interview), and if the Chinese ask for the cash and there are no more buyers of T-bill (not going to happen), they can basically devalue the dollar by printing all the money they owe you in debt and in the process pay off all your debt in one go without defaulting, this will undoubtedly tank their currency, but that would tank your economy too since you would be the ones holding all these $ that are devalued with no buyers in sight, you will own worthless paper if you try and cash your debt all at once...think about it before you post!

I am afraid that america may have to file for bankrupts one day so they may have no other choice than default.

Considering the irony that americans nowadays basically borrow money from China to keep up with China for the coming arms race/cold war 2.0, I will definitely not rule out the possibility that American will have to default one day, and so their dollar-system collapses.

So there is no harm for China to get some ownership of their techs, afterall, many of these top-notch military techs in the USA, like nano-techs, like all-wavelength stealth, like quantum communications etc, are developed by teams leaded by senior Chinese-american scholars.

And it is not like China cannot invent these techs all by themselves, just maybe take a little bit longer.

Actually sometimes you cannot simply say they copied americans, more like co-operations, for instance, in terms of next generation stealth techs (all-wavelength stealth), actually the Chinese are the leaders in this field of research, and thats why its quite irony to see the Chinese from NU and Chinese-american from UC Berkley or stanford are actually in very deep co-operations in this very senstive area of work even through the two governments are supposed to be enemies, or at least, competitors.

For instance:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123689025626111191.html
http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2011/02/ ... naked-eye/
http://www.defensereview.com/title-will ... detection/

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 10 Feb 2011 09:01

Growing concern down under

http://shadow.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2 ... down_under

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 10 Feb 2011 09:33

The closest "all wavelength" stealthy object is a black hole. What kind of djinn technology is this on a plane ?

wen · Post by **wen** » 10 Feb 2011 09:47

Bade wrote:The closest "all wavelength" stealthy object is a black hole. What kind of djinn technology is this on a plane ?

Since when blackhole is stealth? you are suggesting you cannot find a black shadow right in front you under light?

Being stealth means that it should mainly allow the waves either pass through and/or absorb it to prevent it from being detected.

In the case of being stealth against visiable light (eyes), it must mostly allow the light to pass through the object instead of being aborbed to merely creat a black shadow.

The difficult with it is that the light has extremely low wavelength, thus you need nano-scale structure to let the wave pass through the body, thats why being stealth against visible light is actually the most challenging task for achieving all-wavelength stealth, and some of these articles I cited are just mentioning scientists are working on creat these nano-scale structure to achieve this capability of being stealth against even the visible light or other ultra-high freqency E-M waves.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 10 Feb 2011 13:23

wen wrote:
Bade wrote:The closest "all wavelength" stealthy object is a black hole. What kind of djinn technology is this on a plane ?
Since when blackhole is stealth? you are suggesting you cannot find a black shadow right in front you under light?

.

vishnu.nv · Post by **vishnu.nv** » 10 Feb 2011 13:37

wen wrote:
NRao wrote:Dang, why are you telling us this in 2011?

Anyways, I seriously think the J-20 is an achievement, even if it copied. It takes guts to copy and then modify to suit. You know, they have to build real wind tunnels, write papers (granted in languages we cannot read - hey such is life), build a tech demo, paint it, etc, etc, etc.

enjoy the flying breadbox.
I agree, thats why it takes so many years for russians to make a F-15 enhanced SU-27.

And which china brought in numbers and is the mainstay of PLAF.... ohh then whats a J-11? Copy of a copy?
I am sorry dude, get a life some where else!!!

neerajb · Post by **neerajb** » 10 Feb 2011 13:52

This thread should be renamed to "Humorous Chinese"/"Chinese Humor" thread.

Cheers....

wen · Post by **wen** » 10 Feb 2011 13:57

vishnu.nv wrote: And which china brought in numbers and is the mainstay of PLAF.... ohh then whats a J-11? Copy of a copy?
I am sorry dude, get a life some where else!!!

Shouldnt su-27 be considered as a rip-off of F-15, so it doesnt has any copyright to begin with I guess

I am pretty sure China have copied alot of Russian ideas on how to make a proper 5th generation fighter like PAK-FA:

Jaeger · Post by **Jaeger** » 10 Feb 2011 14:22

When in a zoo, don't feed the animals. When on BR, don't feed the trolls.
Ignore an ignoramus for whom ignorance is bliss.

VibhavS · Post by **VibhavS** » 10 Feb 2011 14:46

wen wrote:
vishnu.nv wrote: And which china brought in numbers and is the mainstay of PLAF.... ohh then whats a J-11? Copy of a copy?
I am sorry dude, get a life some where else!!!
Shouldnt su-27 be considered as a rip-off of F-15, so it doesnt has any copyright to begin with I guess

I am pretty sure China have copied alot of Russian ideas on how to make a proper 5th generation fighter like PAK-FA:

This is getting funny, you accuse the russians of copying.. when you are doing the same... and not only russian designs.... The SU-27 is a copy of the F15...??? It was a direct answer therefore built to the same specification as the F15.. there are also traces of the F14 Tomcat and the blended wing body of the F16 in the Su27... so its a hybrid of a F15, F14 and F16.... or so you should claim...

dude the chinese have their claims to greatness no doubts about it.. but please do go around tarnishing the reputation of your country by your senseless and senile comments... you only leave behind a sad impression.

Shankas · Post by **Shankas** » 10 Feb 2011 16:45

hnair wrote:
wen wrote: Actually I failed to see the logic here, since so many techs in the US is developed by Chinese americans and funded by Chinese money, whats wrong with claiming some ownership of some of these techs to save a few times and money?
Dude, seriously, are you approved to hit post button?

Paging Wen. Mr. Wen, your bus to reeducation camp is here
Building a harmonious society, Wen at a time

nits · Post by **nits** » 10 Feb 2011 16:47

troll feed deleted...

kit · Post by **kit** » 10 Feb 2011 17:45

shiv wrote:
wen wrote:
The problem is one primary feature of 5th generation fighter is being "stealth", and research shows that stealth is achieved 70% by the aircraft's aerodynamic layouts.
We could argue about this forever and ask if a huge aircraft with 2 mainwings , 2 tailplanes, two canards, which are themselves unstealthy and two ventral fins - a total of 8 large flat surfaces is "stealthy". Lets leave out the crap. If you have 5 wives and 25 children and I have no wife or girlfriend there is no use my pulling out my organ, waving it about and saying "Mine is better". Better for what? Better for waving maybe. The J-20 is an good effort by China and will surely lead to good tech for people who are honest with themselves.

This is good

kit · Post by **kit** » 10 Feb 2011 17:54

Some day down the river of time , the son of LCA will probably shoot down the 'invisible' J20 ! .. oh by the way the J 20 should have come to Aero India, lets hope it will come to Singapore or Dubai airshow at least.Any way get it out of china, so that the rest of world can really 'see' for itself.

wen · Post by **wen** » 10 Feb 2011 18:30

Lets be honest OK?

Being stealth is all about details, and we all know the pesudo 5th generation fighter called PAK-FA dont bother too much with details.

PAK-FA, as we all know, is a very poor attempt of trying to develop 5th generation fighter.

And its really ironic for some "experts" here to claim China need russian techs to develop their 5th generation fighter, you talk like as if Russian has anything remote related to 5th generation techs in the first place.

Comparing a MiG-1.44 with a J-20 is like trying to comparing a MiG-25 with a F-22, save your bitterness, and just simply admit China's J-20 is far far more advanced than anything russians has, just believe your own eyes and deal with it.

And for some boys who have the strange eyes that can see J-20 is a copy of the crap MiG-1.44, it would be hard for them to deny the obvious fact that PAK-FA looks like a hybrid son of F-15 and Su-27:

Again, sometimes one picture worth a thousand words:

wen · Post by **wen** » 10 Feb 2011 18:34

To be honest, just placing J-20 and PAK-FA side by side, you would not believe they are belong to the same generation of fighters, IMVHO, PAK-FA makes J-20 looks like a 6th generation fighter.

You know, just believe your own eyes:

parshuram · Post by **parshuram** » 10 Feb 2011 18:43

wen wrote:To be honest, just placing J-20 and PAK-FA side by side, you would not believe they are belong to the same generation of fighters, IMVHO, PAK-FA makes J-20 looks like a 6th generation fighter.

You know, just believe your own eyes:

What is a 6th gen Fighter for Christ sake .....

Acc to chinese experts ....Fighter that dozes another fighter in dog fight by turning left with Right indicator on .....or.... which can pass through Great wall without after burners....

Maazza aa gaya ...

wen · Post by **wen** » 10 Feb 2011 18:49

parshuram wrote:
What is a 6th gen Fighter for Christ sake .....

Acc to chinese experts ....Fighter that dozes another fighter in dog fight by turning left with Right indicator on .....or.... which can pass through Great wall without after burners....

Maazza aa gaya ...

Don't looks like they are belong to the same generation to me:

Like I said, one pic>a thousand words

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 10 Feb 2011 18:50

IMVHO, PAK-FA makes J-20 looks like a 6th generation fighter.

Correct, it is always looks. Who cares what each is capable of.

wen · Post by **wen** » 10 Feb 2011 18:55

Kanson wrote:
IMVHO, PAK-FA makes J-20 looks like a 6th generation fighter.
Correct, it is always looks. Who cares what each is capable of.

Sure, who knows if a MiG-25's RCS will be lower or higher than that of a F-22 if the poor MiG-25 can get the same RAM coating F-22 gets

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 10 Feb 2011 19:04

Troll on, its Free!

wen · Post by **wen** » 10 Feb 2011 19:05

Marten wrote:I forget what China copied. Was it the F-22 or the Mig? Who cares anyways, it is a cheap copy and looks like a fat Shanghai wh*re.

MiG-1.44 is basically a rip-off of Chinese J-9VI-II developed in 1970, just learn to live with it