The Trash Thread in the Trash Can (Use 4545 to Merge Posts)

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 10 Feb 2011 18:48

wen wrote:AMCA looks more like a 5th generation training plane instead of a 5th generation fighter.

Both AMCA and the japanese project looks like the son of a downsized F-15 and Chinese training plane L-15.

I thought you would have added F-22 in that list.

wen · Post by **wen** » 10 Feb 2011 18:52

Kanson wrote:
wen wrote:AMCA looks more like a 5th generation training plane instead of a 5th generation fighter.

Both AMCA and the japanese project looks like the son of a downsized F-15 and Chinese training plane L-15.
I thought you would have added F-22 in that list.

Althrough I am sure they both tried to copy from F-22 to look like a F-22 rip-off, but they both failed, they all looks like a son of a downsized F-15 and a L-15 training plane, I guess they both are targetting the market for 5th generation training plane.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Feb 2011 18:53

well the J20 does look like the son of Mig-31 and FBC-1 both of whom ate too many dim sums and fatty duck roast

they need to add a third engine for performance

sumshyam · Post by **sumshyam** » 10 Feb 2011 18:55

Wen, What make to think like that...? My eyes don't see any connection between design features...?

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 10 Feb 2011 18:55

Cheeni drones in AMCA thread.

Where will they go next? Nukkad?

parshuram · Post by **parshuram** » 10 Feb 2011 18:57

Singha wrote:well the J20 does look like the son of Mig-31 and FBC-1 both of whom ate too many dim sums and fatty duck roast

they need to add a third engine for performance

Singha ji if you notice even Mushraff bears resemblence with Mao...

Wen where are you man for so long... You are wasting your talent in China... Enroll Urself in Comedy circus man .. Trust me it is a 6th Gen TV serial.....

wen · Post by **wen** » 10 Feb 2011 19:01

Singha wrote:well the J20 does look like the son of Mig-31 and FBC-1 both of whom ate too many dim sums and fatty duck roast

they need to add a third engine for performance

AMCA:

Japanese's stealth training plane:

Chinese L-15 training plane:

Still wonder why few takes AMCA or the Japanese stealth proposal seriously?

sumshyam · Post by **sumshyam** » 10 Feb 2011 19:09

wen wrote:Still wonder why few takes AMCA or the Japanese stealth proposal seriously?

Well, My friend this is the issue of perception not the arrogance.

wen · Post by **wen** » 10 Feb 2011 19:09

Marten wrote: Sure they all look the same - they have two wings, vertical stabilizers, and probably engines. Can you distinguish the differences between one wing design and another? That's why no one takes Chinese drones seriously. You're on Comedy Central and the joke is on you.

You must be blind to deny the obvious similiarity between these three fighters, I always believe both the Japanese "stealth" fighter (a.k.a the drawf's L-15 enhanced F-15

) and indian's AMCA are 5th generation training plane and obviously they have learnt alot from L-15 and F-15

wen · Post by **wen** » 10 Feb 2011 19:16

Marten wrote: Sure, that is the right explanation. I told you there are two wings and an undercarriage that they must've copied from the L-15. Sure everybody had to learn from the L-15. heh. Go on, entertain us, lil troll. Why don't you list all the features that you think are copied?

Are you blind?

besides the upper rear ends (which looks F-15ish) of the aircrafts, they both looks almost IDENTICAL to a L-15

Basically, change the L-15's vertical tails to V-shape you get a AMCA or japanese stealth training aircraft

AMCA:

Japanese's stealth training plane:

Chinese L-15 training plane:

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Feb 2011 19:21

well atleast the L-15 looks agile while the J20 does not

L-15 is truly the 7th gen fighter to copy from.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 11 Feb 2011 04:40

indranilroy wrote:
Kanson wrote:>>With its wing pushed so far back and the tapering of the body starting barely 2-3 mtrs from the end of the plane. Thhe are curve will not be very pretty at the back.

Its Ok. We may not be able judge it properly but there is tapering starting from the Canards. Of course it wont be a perfect Sears-Haack body at the back.
YEs the canards will help in the forward part and also in capturing a lower maxima of the curve. But the back, I am not too sure.

Chinese obviously know this. They have tried to mitigate it with the big actuator housings and the trailing thing next to the nozzles, but still ...

I believe their priority was not too make a A2A weapon. It seems like a A2G weapon with A2A capabilities, somewhat like the F-35. The AMCA seems more akin to PGFA/F-22, an A2A weapon with A2G capabilities.

The J-20 has got to be a tech demo. I would expect substantial changes in it when the final version comes out. Cannot imagine a 5th gen with canards and those ventral fins too.

Both the J-20 and the PAK-FA should see changes.

The two that we may not see much changes should be the FGFA and the AMCA. Specially the prior should be a stable design from the start.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 11 Feb 2011 04:49

wen wrote:
Singha wrote:well atleast the L-15 looks agile while the J20 does not

L-15 is truly the 7th gen fighter to copy from.
Agile is a department you would not want to touch about J-20, I recommand you to dodge this topic, the strongest design point of J-20 is that it will be a dog-fight monster

Mr. Troll, can you qualify your statement in physical capabilities!

For somebody who doesn't know the difference between a black shadow and a black hole, you have too big a mouth.

GaganD · Post by **GaganD** » 11 Feb 2011 05:00

indranilroy wrote:
wen wrote: Agile is a department you would not want to touch about J-20, I recommand you to dodge this topic, the strongest design point of J-20 is that it will be a dog-fight monster

Btw, Indians and japanese should save their money to buy some L-15s instead of wasting their time and money on printing concept drawings 5th generation training plane
Mr. Troll, can you qualify your statement in physical capabilities!

For somebody who doesn't know the difference between a black shadow and a black hole, you have too big a mouth.

No, he can't. His capability of making a sound argument is equivalent to his terrible driving skills (Chinese make the worse drivers).

wen · Post by **wen** » 11 Feb 2011 05:10

indranilroy wrote:
Mr. Troll, can you qualify your statement in physical capabilities!

Sure I do

J-20 get an unique aerodynamic layouts: lifting-body canard blending in Gothic strake/leading edges.

The design has two very significant benefical features:

1, It will make the aircraft become highly-agile, based on Song's wind tunnel tests, when other factors are controlled, in terms of dog-fight performance/agility, lifting-body canard blending with gothic strakes (J-20)>>short-distanced coupling canards (J-10, Raflale, JAS-39, MiG-1.44)>long-distance coupling canards (EuroFighter 2000)>Large gothic leading edges (F/A-18E/F, Chengdu JF-17/FC-1)>conventional layouts(including these with small leading edges, F-22/35, F-15, Su-27, etc).

2, The other primary benefits is, usually to creat large lifting force, you need large wing-span, however the large wing-span will create higher air-drag during high speed supersonic phase, which means there is some painful trade-off between sub-sonic agility and supersonic performance you have to made.

However, when you creates large part of your lift through the well blended gothic strakes instead of mostly created from the main wings like all the existing canard designs, based on Song's wind tunnel test, there will be a very special aerodynamic charater, that within certain degree, actually it will turn out to be, the LOWER the wing-span, the HIGHER the lifting force can be created.

Thus actually by designing the fighter this way, you can design a low-wingspan high-lifting fighter which is BOTH optimized at dog-fight AND supersonic performance.

Song wen-cong, with his team memebers, published their works in 2001, based on large scale wind tunnel tests, you can find his academic journal paper on the key design features of J-20 in this paper, the key features(lifting-body canards blended into gothic-like strakes, all moving vectical tail wings, low wingspan, etc) mentioned in this 2001's jounral paper matched exactly with what we see the J-20 today, the link for this acadmeic jounral paper is here:

http://www.cqvip.com/qk/83379x/2001008/5563683.html

The title of this paper, translated in English, is "A LOW WINGSPAN HIGH LIFTING, HIGH AGILE DESIGN OF THE NEXT GENERATION FIGHTER".

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 11 Feb 2011 05:18

indranilroy-saar/others, crossposting from another thread.

hnair wrote:Raveen and others, "wen" is a paki trying to grab attention during AeroIndia. Not drone profile

Every AeroIndia, this goofy ritual happens. admins might be busy with AeroIndia to wield the broom to flush out the stray dog from the opera hall

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 11 Feb 2011 05:30

trace his ip.

Narad · Post by **Narad** » 13 Feb 2011 12:57

Please ignore if already posted

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 13 Feb 2011 14:22

super ! where is it from ?

Drishyaman · Post by **Drishyaman** » 13 Feb 2011 14:36

Narad wrote:Please ignore if already posted

Hell !! How did you make it ? Kudos to you. Did you use some kind of CFD analysis tool like ansys CFX or ansys fluent for that ?
Now would like to see the comments from stealth gurus

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 13 Feb 2011 14:45

Rahul M wrote:super ! where is it from ?

Right click on image, and then click on "Copy Image Location", paste to get:

http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/1660/21112.jpg

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 13 Feb 2011 14:48

err I didn't mean that. there has to be more where it came from and I don't mean imageshack.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 13 Feb 2011 14:49

^rotfl - its the IR signature of the model on that table, not a real a.c. in what way is this a meaningful pic?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 13 Feb 2011 14:52

you mean that's a pic of the model taken with an IR cam ? man am I disappointed.

I'm gonna remove this whole series.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 13 Feb 2011 15:03

my vote: remove

manish.rastogi · Post by **manish.rastogi** » 13 Feb 2011 15:05

noo....let it be there...it looks pretty cool...

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 28 Mar 2011 08:59

You did not get it Khalsa.
The statement "I hope MMS should take his retirement package to live in Pakistani amidst his beloved people."
Means here it's MMS and his beloved people are the Pakistanis, not Sikhs. I hope now you get it. And admins, get a clarification from Aditya and clean all this up.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 28 Mar 2011 09:18

Khalsa wrote: Show me where he said that ?

His actions are far far worse than his words. We Indians are told by our beloved PM that Pakistan's prosperity is in India's interest. I don't understand when has Pakistan's stability and progress positvely affected India. Never. The reasons are very simple. A regligious fundamentalist Pakistan is not in India's interest or the creation of Paksitan itself (ideology being that of relgigion) is not in India's interest. So how can the PM of the Indian nation say otherwise.[/quote]

Khalsa wrote:MMS is not beloved to me or Sikhs but trying to call Sikhs are Pakistanis because MMS is in the chair is hard to swallow.

No one is interested in knowing whether MMS is belvoed to Sikhs or Budddists or to 10 percenti (not the growth story of India) but whether he is properly doing his job. He has failed miserably in all aspects and above all these is this kind of acts of surrendering to terrorists and their fundamentalist ideas.

Khalsa wrote:Be careful about mixing religion and politics.

No one must do that. Even you bringing up this issue with reglious tones itself is a bad thing to do. How can you even have such imaginations? [/quote]

Khalsa wrote:You don't like MMS and/ or congress fine...

I had high respect for this man when he assumed office. But now I tell you the truth, I'm really troubled that we have such a person as our PM. I have never liked the Congress party. I will rate the communists above Congress. The congress don't know what they are doing. It's a party without head and tail in terms of ideology. Talks of secularism but does just the reverse of it by imposing fundamentalist ideas and what others call as pseudo secularism. BJP is more secular than the congress.

Khalsa wrote:trying to imply Pakistanis are beloved people for Sikhs is not the right way to approach this.

No terms Sikhs is used in the statement. It was MMS and not Sikhs.

Indrajit · Post by **Indrajit** » 31 Mar 2011 16:50

Para SF training previously illtrained/corrupt CRPF.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 31 Mar 2011 17:22

Indrajit wrote:Para SF training previously illtrained/corrupt CRPF.

Sir,
You laugh, but I doubt if the CRPF jawans who die in Naxal attacks would share your amusement at the situation.
I feel really bad for CRPF jawans. They die because of their uncaring leadership who sip chai sitting in their AC rooms and have no clue ( or do not care) about the ground reality. People laugh at the CRPF jawans saying that they are ill trained and ill motivated. But whose fault is that? CRPF jawans have till now been only treated as cannon fodder with the strategy (if you can call it) being to compensate training,equipment, motivation, leadership etc with numbers. They just send waves after waves of CRPF jawans to die. I really hope that the situation is changing.

Indrajit · Post by **Indrajit** » 31 Mar 2011 21:18

I appreciate your feelings but please know this, there is always a rogue force in a country's security system,in our case it is the CRPF and to some extent BSF,I would advice you to go to NE and record the number of corruption cases (let alone murders & rape)committed by these forces and then you'll have an idea why I was so sarcastic in my earlier post.Having said this I do appreciate the service rendered by a section of the said force towards our Nation.

Thanks.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 31 Mar 2011 21:32

appreciate your feelings but please know this, there is always a rogue force in a country's security system,in our case it is the CRPF and to some extent BSF,I would advice you to go to NE and record the number of corruption cases (let alone murders & rape)committed by these forces and then you'll have an idea why I was so sarcastic in my earlier post.Having said this I do appreciate the service rendered by a section of the said force towards our Nation.

This is the sort nonsense which causes us to shoot ourselves.

Just to defend your cocky one liner you are now going to assert and dredge every incident and essentially bad mouth the CRPF etc.

And some jackass willpick it up and say see what this Indian says

Absolutely stupid self goal

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 31 Mar 2011 21:46

Indrajit wrote:I appreciate your feelings but please know this, there is always a rogue force in a country's security system,in our case it is the CRPF and to some extent BSF,

wah wah! What impeccable logic. My dear Indrajit sir, members of the security forces also come from within the society and there will be individuals who will act in criminal manner just like civilians - or do you expect all security force members to be sadhu-sants? But that hardly means you can go ahead and tarnish an entire organization with the same brush based on your hang-ups - in fact, that is criminal. BTW yes, I have been to the NE (part of my family comes from there).

abhischekcc · Post by **abhischekcc** » 07 Apr 2011 23:41

IB4TL

Chandragupta · Post by **Chandragupta** » 07 Apr 2011 23:42

Amusing but IB4TL

abhischekcc · Post by **abhischekcc** » 07 Apr 2011 23:44

I am glad I stayed awake late until night.

amdavadi · Post by **amdavadi** » 07 Apr 2011 23:45

IB4TL.....post isnt going to count but what the hell

Mahendra · Post by **Mahendra** » 07 Apr 2011 23:52

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 07 Apr 2011 23:54

Boooooooooooooooooooooo

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 08 Apr 2011 16:47

Yes!!!! My 2nd IB4TL..... Just in time.