LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 08 Feb 2011 23:21

^^^ Thank you!

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 08 Feb 2011 23:25

Thanks Kartik, rakall and Hari Sir!

Was there any info on:

1. How many TDs/test helicopters will be produced for testing?
2. When will the next stage of tests be? hot, high altitude etc and weapons testing?
3. When its IOC is targeted for?

Was there any mention of when the LUH will be rolled out and when its first flight will be? Will it be using a single shakti engine? any more details of LUH?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 08 Feb 2011 23:28

you are welcome.
I should also mention that the anza MANPADS used by the PA (license manuf. of chinese MANPADS) et al were plagued by severe performance and accuracy problems. there's a saying that the anza's in kargil war hit nothing but ground. all the ones that hit (one Mi-17 that went down, one An-32 and one Mi-17 in Raj that survived) were from stingers.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 08 Feb 2011 23:49

Rahul

an 32 or Canberra??

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 08 Feb 2011 23:56

Shiv, Do you still have those old William Green's "Observer's book of Aircraft" from school days? I recall there used to be a Lockheed concept attack helicopter which flew fast and had lots of armament. it never got beyond prototype stage. Maybe they sterioded it and it became Apache!

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 09 Feb 2011 00:01

ramana wrote:Shiv, Do you still have those old William Green's "Observer's book of Aircraft" from school days? I recall there used to be a Lockheed concept attack helicopter which flew fast and had lots of armament. it never got beyond prototype stage. Maybe they sterioded it and it became Apache!

http://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft ... aft_id=258

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 09 Feb 2011 00:06

surya sahab, I'm talking of the incident where an An-32 inadvertently crossed the IB/LOC with an AM on board. the AM later faced disciplinary hearings IIRC. was that hit by a stinger or just fired at ? I might have confused with the canberra (photo recon ?) incident which seems to have escaped my mind.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 09 Feb 2011 00:14

He was AVM Vinod Patney. The a/c he was in strayed acorss the LOC. People made lot of hulla at that time.

Thanks for the Cheyenne write-up.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 09 Feb 2011 00:24

Rahul

I think it was fired but not hit

only the Canberra I believe was hit.

Also the Mi 8 in Rajasthan - is that the post Atlantique incident??

If so i believe it was an RBS 70 that was fired at it

rakall · Post by **rakall** » 09 Feb 2011 01:56

putnanja wrote:Thanks Kartik, rakall and Hari Sir!

Was there any info on:

1. How many TDs/test helicopters will be produced for testing?
2. When will the next stage of tests be? hot, high altitude etc and weapons testing?
3. When its IOC is targeted for?

Was there any mention of when the LUH will be rolled out and when its first flight will be? Will it be using a single shakti engine? any more details of LUH?

Some questions are already answered above:

3TDs for testing (each spaced such a way that the improvements from testflights of previous TDs are incorporated)
Next steps is in the first picture of the collage
IOC date not mentioned, but I assume 2years from now is reasonable..

LUH is at metal cutting stage.. so a lot of details can emerge by AeroIndia2013.. I wouldnt expect anything much before that !!!

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 09 Feb 2011 02:41

Rakall sahab fabulous work for your coverage of the Aero India seminars.

I can see that both TD1 and TD2 do not have the tail end plates. From watching the presentation myself,I know that the armament boom with the aerofoil CS is in fabrication.

1. I feel that the protrusion is lesser, but can't be sure with the camouflage pattern. Also from the side view the cowling scoop is quite rectangular on TD1, but more trapezoidal on the TD2. Is there any other change?
2. I don't see any change in the fairing of the MLG/TLG of the TD2 from TD1. Are they in fabrication too? Or were the changes done in TD1 itself?

rakall · Post by **rakall** » 09 Feb 2011 02:43

indranilroy wrote:Rakall sahab fabulous work for your coverage of the Aero India seminars.

I can see that both TD1 and TD2 do not have the tail end plates. From watching the presentation myself,I know that the armament boom with the aerofoil CS is in fabrication.

1. I feel that the protrusion is lesser, but can't be sure with the camouflage pattern. Also from the side view the cowling scoop is quite rectangular on TD1, but more trapezoidal on the TD2. Is there any other change?
2. I don't see any change in the fairing of the MLG/TLG of the TD2 from TD1. Are they in fabrication too? Or were the changes done in TD1 itself?

As you can see the TD2 on display - the build is not complete.. The fairings are in fabrication -- wait till TD2 flies.. Everyhting will be there !!!

A Sharma · Post by **A Sharma** » 09 Feb 2011 05:14

New Wire Strike Protection System Developed for Hindustan Aeronautics

Bangalore, February 08, 2011 – Magellan Aerospace announced today an agreement with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) in Bangalore, India for a new Wire Strike Protection System (WSPS®). The agreement includes the design and development of a WSPS for the HAL Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH), which will be carried out at Magellan’s Bristol Aerospace division in Winnipeg in 2011. Bristol is the global expert for this unique system, offering a proven design and acknowledged technological expertise.

The AHL system is comprised of an upper and lower cutter, and windshield deflector, designed by Bristol to be integrated into the unique structure of the ALH.

Mr. Don Boitson, Vice President and General Manager, Bristol Aerospace, commented, “We have been making and delivering WSPS kits since 1980, and are delighted to have HAL join our family of global customers.”

Mr. Ashok Nayak, Chairman of HAL said, “This contract between us for design and development of a Wire Strike Protection System is strategically an imperative for our future business growth and we acknowledge the potential of Magellan Aerospace and HAL with this program”.

In 1977 Bristol, with the Canadian Forces, designed the WSPS to provide a measure of protection for helicopters to the potentially devastating consequences of inadvertent encounters with horizontally strung wires and cables.

In 2009, a milestone was reached with the delivery of the 20,000th Wire Strike Protection System (WSPS®) kit. More than 65 models of WSPS have been developed for commercial and military customers around the world, and new systems continue to be designed for the new helicopter developments that are increasing in size and complexity.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 09 Feb 2011 06:18

Ramana. you are talking of the Cheyenne, it was a beast of a machine. The Apache is a just a shadow of a machine compared to that.

ssarawat · Post by **ssarawat** » 09 Feb 2011 07:33

The indian airforce currently owns and operates the attack helicopters. I think attack helicopters should generally be used to support the armour, mech infantry or infantry thrusts. They do require a level of integration at a unit or tank squadron level. I was wondering why aren't the attack helicopters assigned to the army and why should they be a part of the airforce?

It would be great to get a view of larger audience.

thanks

ssarawat

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 09 Feb 2011 07:45

So the ALH (and the LCH ?) will feature this WSPS system to cut any wires that may otherwise cause a catastrophic loss..

On the front of most U.S. Army and many civil helicopters you may notice a knife like fixture on the top of the cockpit, and one on the bottom of the aircraft near the chin bubbles. These are not antennae for radios like most people believe. They are part of the Wire Strike Protection System (WSPS). The WSPS is made up of several components to protect the helicopter from high wire strikes. It was developed because of the increased risk of wire strikes while flying at NOE altitudes. If a helicopter hits a power line (Telephone line, electrical line, guy wire for a tower, or any other wire obstacle), the rotor system may become entangled with the wire, and catastrophic failure of the rotor system could lead to total destruction of the aircraft. The WSPS was developed to reduce the severity of a wire obstacle collision by diverting the wire into the cutter blade assemblies. The cutter blades affixed to the top and bottom of the frontal area of the aircraft will usually cut the wire and eliminate the hazard. On UH - 1 Huey helicopters, a set of bars will carry the wire over external parts of the windshield wipers. On OH-58 helicopters, the center section of the windshield has an abrasive cutting strip (Built into the windshield deflector) to score the wire and weaken it before it comes in contact with the WSPS cutters. The WSPS system protects 90% of the frontal area of the helicopter, and reduces the hazard from most wire strikes. With the WSPS, the pilot has a 95% chance of surviving a single wire strike. The odds of survival decrease as the number of wires increases. 2 wires will reduce the chances to 75%, 3 wires to 50%, and 4 wires to about 25%. Although the WSPS system is quite effective, care must still be used to avoid all wire obstacles. Apache, Cobra, and Blackhawk helicopters all have a smaller, less noticeable WSPS system on them. They can usually be seen just above the cockpit, and near landing gear struts. Chinooks do not have WSPS systems.

link

SriSri · Post by **SriSri** » 09 Feb 2011 09:12

Magellan Aerospace to Develop Wire Strike Protection System for HAL Dhruv Advanced Light Helicopters

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 09 Feb 2011 10:47

Might be a dumb question, but how close to flying is the TD-2 prototype? I assume they'll assemble the blades and bolt on the sensors into the nose hole before the show starts. Are there any other parts that need to be assembled first, or is that bird pretty close to flying?

Secondary question: Is the plan to keep reducing weight on the bird or perhaps use what is gained by the weight savings to add more "features" back in (e.g.) larger fuel tank, more ammo etc.

Sriman · Post by **Sriman** » 09 Feb 2011 11:06

*** self deleted ***

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 09 Feb 2011 13:20

First (small) video of LCH at Aero India...Feb 8,2011

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 09 Feb 2011 22:44

Pratyush wrote:Ramana. you are talking of the Cheyenne, it was a beast of a machine. The Apache is a just a shadow of a machine compared to that.

In that spirit we should call this one (LCH) a "dao" aka heavy sword as it will behead the pakis!

Arya Sumantra · Post by **Arya Sumantra** » 10 Feb 2011 02:33

self-deleted

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 10 Feb 2011 02:54

Arya, The HELINA is a proposed weapon for the LCH.

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 10 Feb 2011 08:23

LCH with Two Rocket Pods on each stub wing

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 10 Feb 2011 10:12

Don't know if I'm saying this because I'm biased, but LCH looks terrific.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 10 Feb 2011 10:13

I sort of get disoriented if I stare at the digital camo LCH for long

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 10 Feb 2011 10:18

That must be the whole point :p
disorienting enemies

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 10 Feb 2011 10:30

jamwal for comparison try to make a table with LCH and others of its class.

When we look at first page this thread has come a long way!!!

bksahu · Post by **bksahu** » 10 Feb 2011 19:13

Kartik wrote:Hari Nair Sir, one question remains unanswered- why not use AI-11 to give the LCH a buzz by giving it a name as well !?

LCH already has a name "Janmejaya"

SriSri · Post by **SriSri** » 10 Feb 2011 19:20

Commenting on pure looks, LCH in black is a bit too shiny. It looks like a plastic toy.

Hari Nair · Post by **Hari Nair** » 10 Feb 2011 20:18

@ bksahu - that's just the ad poster with the regulation tr-lingual slogans thrown in. No names yet - the priority is to progress the flight testing to an early completion and operationalise the bird at an early date.

@SriSri - actually its' dull Black in matte finish - which makes for some great photos, as you can see from Rahul's pics in this thread.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 10 Feb 2011 21:03

Hari nair ji push for a scare inducing name like Ram Dao ie Broadsword. With its 8 Helinas it will do the same job to enemy tanks. Three of them will take out 24 tanks.

Its true assault breaker as it beheads the enemy tanks.

A attack helicopter pilot saying he flies janamejya is hardly inspiring!

" Namo namah!"
Their is power in the name.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 10 Feb 2011 21:07

Hari sir, amazing flying display of LCH. We are looking for an update on the LCH progress and handling from you after AI-11

Hari Nair · Post by **Hari Nair** » 10 Feb 2011 21:49

@ ramana - as said earlier, the focus now is to complete the test programme.

@ putnanja - the credit goes to the design & shopfloor teams of HAL.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 10 Feb 2011 22:31

Hari sir ...

When can we expect to see the new armament boom and the LG fairings? When we say that we have shaved off 200 kgs from TD1 to TD2, does this take into account the weight gained by the fairings?

When can we expect a prototype of the LUH? Can we still make the 2012 timeline with the problem of selection of engines?
Did HAL work it out with Turbomecca for the Shakti engine? If not who all reponded to the engine RFI sent out by HAL in Feb last year?
The Shakti engine is optimized for high altitudes. I heard Dhruv hovered with 600 kgs at 6km! If a different engine is selected, will it be able to meet the high altitude requirements?

At the aero india seminar, it was told that the armament boom will not generate any lift. Has this been done to lower induced drag or to avoid vortice shedding by a lifting armament boom and it's adverse effects on the tail plane? Or both?

Thank you

Avik · Post by **Avik** » 10 Feb 2011 22:41

Hari Nair: I have been at Aero India now for the past 2 days, and I can easily say that the best flying display, by far, is by the LCH. There are no two ways about this. I have been interacting with a range of folks from India and abroad, and the LCH is non-pareil!

My kudos to Unnikrishnan Nair. People dont believe when I tell them that this chopper is still in development !

rakall · Post by **rakall** » 10 Feb 2011 22:57

indranilroy wrote:Hari sir ...

The Shakti engine is optimized for high altitudes. I heard Dhruv hovered with 600 kgs at 6km! If a different engine is selected, will it be able to meet the high altitude requirements?

Thank you

It is really great if the above is true.. There is some contradiction here !!!

Prasad Sampath's talk in the seminar he mentioned Dhruv did 200kg at 6km !!

Actually there was a report in MSM (IIRC written by Gp.Cpt.Hari Nair himself) on the actual trial during which it was flown by Unni .. I will try to find it on my HDD.. Hari Nair mentions 619kg of mission payload.. Is something lost in the definition of mission payload versus useful payload? Or even though Dhruv demonstrated 619Kg capacity - is it cleared for only 200kg at 6km?

Hari Nair -- could you please clairfy which is the right value.. 200kg or 618kg at 6km?

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 10 Feb 2011 23:06

>>Prasad Sampath's talk in the seminar he mentioned Dhruv did 200kg at 6km !!

That was the requirement set by the ASR. But it exceeded the expectation.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 10 Feb 2011 23:41

HAL plans treat for Aero India

Designed to allow two pilots to hover above a helipad at 20,000 feet, carrying 200 kilogrammes of payload, a Dhruv helicopter powered by the Shakti engine exceeded that requirement handily during tests last summer. At the Indian Army’s 21,000 foot high Sonam Post, astride the Siachen Glacier, the test helicopter hovered with a payload of 600 kilogrammes.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 10 Feb 2011 23:51

Technical snag hits LCH display

The indigenous light combat helicopter (LCH) was forced to cut short its flying display, owing to a technical snag on Thursday.

The pilot reported a technical snag in the chopper’s rotors and was asked to land immediately, official sources said.

However, the aircraft is expected to fly on Friday. The LCH pilot, who is said to have complained of some unusual noise in the aircraft, was asked to land keeping in mind the safety of the people. The noise could have been from the Su-30 fighter jet taking off from a nearby runway, sources said. The data recorders of the helicopters have already been sent for a replay to HAL.

Hari Sir, hope this is nothing serious! Any update on this issue?