J&K News and Discussion-2011

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 11 Feb 2011 20:13

sum wrote:Sopore girls part of Christian group, says Kerala evangelist

The case of the murder of two teenaged sisters by suspected militants in Sopore has a new twist. Paul Ciniraj Mohammad, a Christian evangelist based in Kerala’s Kottayam district, has claimed that “the girls were active participants of an underground Christian group.”

J&K Police, however, termed the evangelist’s claim as “false”. They said their investigation found the claim to be factually incorrect” and that “there are no missionaries active in Sopore.”

“I had seen the girls during my visit to Sopore a few years ago, “ Paul Ciniraj Mohammad told The Indian Express . “The girls were not converts. They had started reading the New Testament of the Bible. I suspect that the militants might have come to know about the group and the girls’ involvement in its activities,” he said.

Ciniraj, who runs an evangelical group, Salem Voice Ministries, said the Christian group was working among Muslims in a secret manner. “Only three or four members of the group are converts, whereas others are dedicated believers in Christianity. An evangelist from Kerala had been operating in Sopore,” he said.

Even Jihad Watch website run by Robert Spencer said the same thing that these two girls were christians.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 11 Feb 2011 23:02

X-post....

Kashmir: Truth behind politics
By R C GANJOO

There are different versions about Maharaja's remaining as independent or not. According to DC Prashant, former Member Parliament and veteran journalist, who had covered Maharaja's regime, "Maharaja Hari Singh was against Pt Jawaharlal Nehru's policy. During "Quit Kashmir Movement" in 1946 about 8 persons were killed and 15 injured in Srinagar. Pt Nehru on this situation described Srinagar as "city is dead". Hari Singh was annoyed over Nehru's statements. "I will never accede to Nehru's India" was Maharaja Hari Singh's reply to Pt. Nehru's statement, circumstances led him to accede to India, according to Maharaja Hari Singh had three dreams - to see his son Dr Karan Singh as a father, Sheikh Mohd. Abdullah's downfall and Pt Nehru's downfall too. First two dreams came true in his life time. But he could not see the downfall of Pt. Nehru. Maharaja Hari Singh died in 1961 and Pt. Nehru in 1964. ...

Capt. Dewan Singh, the then ADC to Maharaja Hari Singh, who is alive, has different view about independent Kashmir. According to him, Maharaja Hari Singh was never in favour of an Independent Kashmir. In 1931 at round table conference held in Landon, Maharaja Hari Singh had decided to give up his state for Indian union. After independence, Lord Mount batten had also offered Maharaja Hari Singh to join Pakistan, as his state was surrounded by Pakistan with majority of Muslims or third option of declaring Kashmir as an independent state. According to Capt. Dewan Singh, the accession to India was final. The delayed accession was due to certain unavoidable circumstances and the prevailing situation in India and Nehru's insistence that Sheikh Mohd Abdullah be released and Maharaja Hari Singh should quit.

LINK

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 11 Feb 2011 23:27

Chacha never missed the oppertunity to harm Indian interests . Thanks Parmatam , Sardar was there. From old Chacha to young half and half Choocha , story is same .

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 11 Feb 2011 23:52

Prem full text of above article for the amount of details it provides:

Kashmir: Truth behind politics

By R C GANJOO

There could be - political or constitutional reasons for Kashmir to remain an independent state. But who gave the idea of an Independent Kashmir and why? Is the accession of Kashmir to India final and irrevocable or not? These questions are being raised again and again when the Kashmir issue is discussed at national or international fora.

Purposely, the icons of Kashmir who have an in-depth study on Kashmir politics and Kashmiri psyche were always kept at bay and never involved in discussing any policy on Kashmir by Delhi. Instead, the self-styled experts and so-called opinion makers on Kashmir operating in Delhi, in connivance with the vested interests from Kashmir, maneuvered to keep these genuine people away, fearing threat to their political gambit. The patch-work arrangements with new political players' entry from time to time have made Kashmir issue more complicated, thus leading to nowhere.

Looking back, the first Kashmiri pandit R C Kak (Ram Chand Kak) who became a controversial prime minister of Maharaja Hari Singh's regime had given the concept of "Independent Kashmir" keeping in view the changing political scenario at that time. After feeling the pulses of people of Kashmir he had come to this conclusion that the majority Muslim state of Kashmir will never join the Indian domain while the minority (Hindus) would not like to be part of Pakistan. The only option left was to keep Kashmir an independent state with friendly relations with India and Pakistan. He had that foresightedness as described by late Moti Lal Razdan "Saqi" in his book "Hamara Adab". The book said he (Kak) was very close to Maharaja Hari Singh but was removed unceremoniously from the prime minister's post when Sheikh Mohd Abdullah, Pt. Jawaharlal Nehru and Acharya Kripalani hatched a conspiracy and poisoned Maharaja's ears against him. Kak had risen from the post of a librarian to prime minister's position by dint of his sincerity and ability. He was appointed as Prime Minister of Jammu and Kashmir on 1st July 1945 and arrested on the 12th August 1947 when Maharaja Hari Singh was leaving the state. Janak Singh took over his post. MotiLal Saqi, Padmashree Awardee, in his book had also mentioned how R C Kak was humiliated by the late Sheikh Mohd Abdullah, when he was paraded through main bazaar of Hari Singh street in Srinagar city, with both his hands tied with a cord made of twisted paddy hay and people were ordered to shower shit and filth from their housetops over R C Kak. Kak was forced to give statement against Maharaja Hari Singh rule. But he did not utter a single word against the Maharaja. It is sad to notice, when Kak died on 10th Feb 1983, in Srinagar his death was not even condoled. The political enmity between R C Kak and Sheikh Mohd Abdullah had begun when the latter was arrested on 24th May 1946 on the charges of opposing the Maharaja's rule.

There are different versions about Maharaja's remaining as independent or not. According to DC Prashant, former Member Parliament and veteran journalist, who had covered Maharaja's regime, "Maharaja Hari Singh was against Pt Jawaharlal Nehru's policy. During "Quit Kashmir Movement" in 1946 about 8 persons were killed and 15 injured in Srinagar. Pt Nehru on this situation described Srinagar as "city is dead". Hari Singh was annoyed over Nehru's statements. "I will never accede to Nehru's India" was Maharaja Hari Singh's reply to Pt. Nehru's statement, circumstances led him to accede to India, according to Maharaja Hari Singh had three dreams - to see his son Dr Karan Singh as a father, Sheikh Mohd. Abdullah's downfall and Pt Nehru's downfall too. First two dreams came true in his life time. But he could not see the downfall of Pt. Nehru. Maharaja Hari Singh died in 1961 and Pt. Nehru in 1964.

The late B P Sharma, again a veteran journalist of J&K state who had also reported in various newspapers on Maharaja Hari Singh and Sheikh Mohd Abdullah's regimes in his write-ups had said that in a forwarding letter to Governor General Lord Mount batten, Maharaja Hari Singh had mentioned " I wanted to keep my state independent but am forced to accede to India". His deputy prime minister Ram Lal Batra had given a statement in Delhi "we want Kashmir as Switzerland of Asia and independent state". According to him, Maharaja Hari Singh's bitterness against Sheikh Mohd Abdullah and Pt. Jawaharlal Nehru never decreased. When Pt. Nehru had declined to accept the offer of J& K state to join India, Mehar Chand Mahajan, as prime minister of Kashmir representing on behalf of Maharaja Hari Singh in Delhi replied "then the standing orders from Maharaja for him were to negotiate with Jinnah". It perturbed Delhi and Sardar Patel had to intervene to make the offer accepted.

Capt. Dewan Singh, the then ADC to Maharaja Hari Singh, who is alive, has different view about independent Kashmir. According to him, Maharaja Hari Singh was never in favour of an Independent Kashmir. In 1931 at round table conference held in Landon, Maharaja Hari Singh had decided to give up his state for Indian union. After independence, Lord Mount batten had also offered Maharaja Hari Singh to join Pakistan, as his state was surrounded by Pakistan with majority of Muslims or third option of declaring Kashmir as an independent state. According to Capt. Dewan Singh, the accession to India was final. The delayed accession was due to certain unavoidable circumstances and the prevailing situation in India and Nehru's insistence that Sheikh Mohd Abdullah be released and Maharaja Hari Singh should quit.

Hari Singh had already told Pt Nehru that Sheikh Mohd Abdullah would prove useful, undisputed and undoubted leader of Kashmir provided he is kept under check. Pt. Nehru did not tolerate the comments of Maharaja Hari Singh. Pt. Nehru, Acharya Kriplani had blind faith in Sheikh Mohd Abdullah. But Hari Singh's prediction came true when Sheikh Mohd Abdullah shifted from his stand and was arrested in 1953. Hari Singh was in Bombay at that time.

When Sheikh Mohd Abdullah was re-installed as chief minister in 1975 by Mrs Indira Gandhi, he constituted a cabinet subcommittee, under his finance minister D D Thakur to examine the central laws, including the provision of the Constitution of India and to find out which portion of them was not beneficial in the interest of the state. The committee would examine a) instrument of accession signed by the then Maharaja of Jammu and Kashmir b) Delhi agreement executed between political leaders at the centre and those in state in the year 1952 c) Article 370 of the Constitution of India and the Accord entered into between political leaders at the center and the state in the year 1975 (G.Parthasarthy-Afzal Beg negotiations, known as Indira-Sheikh Accord later ). This subcommittee, in fact, was constituted in the backdrop of "Greater Autonomy" to Kashmir. This subcommittee report known as GM Shah-G N Kochak, never saw the light of the day since. But Awami National Conference (ANC) president Begum Khalida Shah has put forward this report before the nation to discuss along with other reports from different political parties which are in circulation.

While commenting on the interim report of "The Basic Principles Committee," submitted on 10th June 1951 for acceptance in the constituent Assembly, Sheikh Mohd Abdullah, said "freedom cannot be achieved by requesting but by the struggle. Only that nation attains freedom which sheds its blood for this cause. This again cannot be achieved by begging. Freedom can be obtained only when people of Jammu, Kashmir and Ladakh - say of the whole state-make scarifies in the manner in which lakhs of people like Luther have struggled for their liberation". He had also said "people on the other side of the cease- fire line Muzaffarabad, Mirpore, Poonch and Gilgit etc had to struggle jointly with us. This principle will not, therefore, apply to only one part of the state but also to all people of the state including those brethren of ours who have been separated from us and those eyes have been shut and tongues gagged in Pakistan."

The constituent assembly had adopted the report by a unanimous resolution on 11th June 1952. The state convened a meeting in November 1951 and had readily setup basic principles committee and Fundamental Rights and Citizenship committee.

However, accession took place. It was against the wishes of Maharaja Hari Singh when India approached UNO. This irritated Maharaja Hari Singh and he wrote to Pt Nehru that accession was final and he has no business to approach to UNO as it will complicate the matter. R C Kak's role was found dubious and made suspects in the eyes of Maharaja Hari Singh. That was the reason Kak was removed from the prime minister's post says Capt. Dewan Singh.

According to Capt. Dewan Singh, Maharaja Hari Singh was against the British rule. He had even ordered his state force not to wear neckties. To keep Englishmen at arm's length he had introduced "State Subject" provision because he knew that they would buy land and capture Kashmir. The state subject still exists. And job opportunities for the people of the state would be minimized as the foreigner would become the masters. About Maharaja Hari Singh's nationalism, Dewan Singh says when he was in Bombay in 1949 he was persuaded by top industrialists and leaders of the country to speak against Pt Nehru's follies. Maharaja Hari Singh declined to do so because, in his opinion, Pakistan would take advantage of it. Maharaja Hari Singh was very sincere and loyal to the Indian Union but Delhi had never wished him well. On the instrument of accession, B P Sharma has said that accession was legally and continually final but it was India which made it complicated by inserting a paragraph in the forwarding letter of acceptance that it would require confirmation of the people as soon as peace was restored in Kashmir.

The late Moti Lal Razdan "Saqi," authority on Kashmir history, had said that Kashmir has strategic importance in the Indian subcontinent. It is mentioned in the Gazetteer of 1888 that whosoever keeps Kashmir with him would control the subcontinent.

(The author can be contacted at rcganjoo@ gmail.com)

[Kashmir Times]

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 12 Feb 2011 01:43

ramana wrote:Prem full text of above article for the amount of details it provides:

Kashmir: Truth behind politics

By R C GANJOO
The late Moti Lal Razdan "Saqi," authority on Kashmir history, had said that Kashmir has strategic importance in the Indian subcontinent. It is mentioned in the Gazetteer of 1888 that whosoever keeps Kashmir with him would control the subcontinent.

We see that small men in a small valley had no clue in that period from 1945 to 1950 that global geo political plans would make their state as a center for future control. This Pak claim on Kashmir is actually the
proxy claim by the UK and the western cabal who want to control the heart of the asian land mass.
Read Mackinder and Brezinski - the grand Chess Board again.

By allowing PRC to take the Tibet they made four players make a claim on the region and with NATO and US on the pretext of Af Pak are really working on the Kashmir plan.
What is really Af Pak. It is really Kashmir

What is the Kashmir plan which may have been planned in 1900.

Mackinder summarised his theory in Democratic Ideals and Reality (1919) thus:
Who rules East Europe commands the Heartland; (Eurasia)
Who rules the Heartland commands the World Island; (Eurasia and Africa)
Who rules the World Island commands the World.

Eighteenth-century Britain, as an island, enjoyed the freedom of the seas;
eighteenth-century Prussia was ringed by foes on all sides. One of the US's
current great advantages is that, in contrast to Prussia then or Russia today, it
has no great powers on its borders.

In 1904,
British geographer Mackinder placed his finger on Eastern Europe and declared that
to be the "pivot area" or "heartland" of Europe. He declared: "Who commands
Eastern Europe commands the heartland; who rules the heartland commands the world
island; and who rules the world-island commands the world." (By world-island, he
meant the Euro-Asian-African landmass.)

Did anyone buy the Heartland Theory? Yes. Napoleon understood it even
before Mackinder was born.

The essential element
in the Heartland Theory is simply "being there." There have been two great shifts
in the international balance of power over the past 500 years. The first was the
rise of Western Europe, which by the late 17th century had become the richest,
most dynamic and expansionist part of the globe. The second was the rise of the
United States of America, which between the Civil War and World War I became the
single most important country in the world.

Right now a trend of equal magnitude
is taking places the rise of Asia, led by China, which will fundamentally reshape
� the international landscape in the next few decades. For America, whether it is preserving jobs or security, recognizing and adapting to this new world order is key.

Zbigniew Brzezinski, adviser to several presidents and
a guru admired by the Bush team, has written virtually those same words. In his
book The Grand Chessboard: American Primacy and Its Geostrategic Imperatives, he
writes that the key to dominating the world is central Asia, with its strategic
position between competing powers and immense oil and gas wealth. "To put it in
terminology that harkens back to the more brutal age of ancient empires," he
writes, one of "the grand imperatives of imperial geostrategy" is "to keep the
barbarians from coming together"

http://www.scribd.com/doc/4812906/India-and-Geopolitics

Chinmayanand · Post by **Chinmayanand** » 13 Feb 2011 00:28

PDP gives away J&K parts to China in slide show

Is she financed by China or is she trying to attract China to get the finances ?

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 13 Feb 2011 05:24

Chinmayanand wrote:PDP gives away J&K parts to China in slide show

Is she financed by China or is she trying to attract China to get the finances ?

Good point. The cash horde in Dharamsala from the karmapa's office seems to have caught caught more than her attn....

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 13 Feb 2011 13:50

Centre may bring back at least 10,000 troops from J&K

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 486906.cms

Raghavendra · Post by **Raghavendra** » 13 Feb 2011 19:01

Omar attacks PDP for controversial J&K map http://www.zeenews.com/news686981.html

Srinagar: Jammu and Kashmir Chief Minister Omar Abdullah on Sunday flayed the PDP for its controversial map of the state, saying "gifting away" of state's territory will be not be acceptable.

The map displayed by PDP during a power point presentation yesterday showed Aksai Chin painted in red and Pakistan-occupied Kashmir (PoK) in green. The depiction of the map is seen as an acceptance of the occupation of these areas by the respective countries.

Omar said, "It is up to the PDP how they would want to clear this (map). I do not think it is acceptable to anyone that part of state's territory is gifted away like this".

The Chief Minister, however, said that he was in favour of making the borders irrelevant that would ensure free trade and travel between the sides of divided state.

Meanwhile, PDP leader Mehbooba Mufti said her party has not done anything to challenge the sovereignty of the country over the territory of Jammu and Kashmir.

"We have only shown the distance say from Kashmir-Leh to Yarkand, which is in China. These routes were open before 1947. We have not done anything (to change the map)," she added.

The PDP president said the power-point presentation only highlighted the distance between Srinagar and other major trade centres in Central Asia and China before 1947.

Chief spokesman of the party Nayeem Akhtar said the map in question does not mean anything politically.

"We want erstwhile state of Jammu and Kashmir, as it existed before the partition of subcontinent, should be made a free economic zone," Akhtar said.

He said the traditional routes connecting Jammu and Kashmir Central Asia and China, which became a casualty of "partition tragedy", should be opened as closure of these has led to the feeling of a siege in the state.

ManishH · Post by **ManishH** » 14 Feb 2011 16:02

No point being miffed on depiction of reality. The only way to hold on to what we have, and maybe in future
regain what was lost, is civilian settlement (aka Israeli Kibbutzim). Only if we have the guts to form civil militias
and settle the land, till it, can we hold the territory long term. Remember the west wasn't won by her majesty's
cavalry but by the hardy homesteaders.

munna · Post by **munna** » 14 Feb 2011 22:33

Link to Teleconference of Kashmiri Pandits with Interlocutor

Please scroll down to bottom of the page to listen recordings of the views of 436 KPs from all parts of the World and demand for a homeland with UT status in valley.

In a teleconference wherein nearly 436 Kashmiri Hindus representing USA, Canada, UK, Australia, France, New Zealand, India, Germany and Austria were connected and bonded for 90 minutes with Dilip Padgaonkar, one of the three interlocutors appointed by the Government of India on Jammu and Kashmir, the Global Kashmiri Pandit Diaspora made a strong presentation on all the aspects of Kashmiri Hindu struggle in exile.

Besides touching various facets on the plight of Kashmiri Hindu refugees, the main focus of the program was introduction to why Homeland? The demand for homeland was introduced and connected with the past history of Kashmiri Pandits. It was stressed and argued by many speakers that this was the only option to protect this unique and distinct community from becoming extinct.

Forced to live in exile for more than two decades, the global Kashmiri Hindu Diaspora demanded carving out a homeland for in Kashmir valley with Union Territory status.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 15 Feb 2011 01:09

BJP forcing Muslims to take up arms: Yasin Malik

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 495423.cms

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 15 Feb 2011 03:36

X-posting CRS as as usual went of on tilt and posted in pakI thread!

CRamS wrote:Sorry to sound harsh, but Indian elite and many a Indian public were ecstatic at slum dog Oscars witout realizing that they are pissed upon.

Thus, I am wondering if US isn't capable of pulling of the following stunt post Egypt. First instigate the Kashmiri Muslims to go on a revolt Egyptian style demaning "azaadi" and "freedom" from "Indian oppression". They then call up their boy MMS and tell him to restrain the security forces, as if he needed any prodding (he might actually deploy the security forces against any Indian nationalist opposition to KM demands). In the mean time, with some nudge, nudge strategy from CIA, the Bakara types, Sagarika Ghosh types, and other "green generation" as Sagarika calls western aping Indian middle class; all go marching into the streets of New Delhi in support of the the "right of self determination" and "azaadi" and "freedom" of KMs from "oppression"; and rope ever more #s in a day or two using facebook and twitter, all this circus augmented with round the clock commentary on CNN, BBC, Faux about what a great democracy India is, how Gandhian Mirwaiz fakroo and the vegeratrian terrorist are in their peaceful demands for freedom, and wallah the final nail on India's coffin, MMS declaring in address to the nation and world from the ramports of the red fort that as the world's largest democracy and living up to democratic principlesz, he grants KMs their "azaadi". And of course, the Sweedsih Nobel committee announes the joint Nobel for him, Mark Zuckerberg, and Kiyani soon after.

This kind of a scenario is not fiction, a realistic scenario speculated on recent developments under MMS & Co.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 15 Feb 2011 04:02

India to pull 10,000 troops from Kashmir

There are currently 70,000 paramilitary troops in Indian Kashmir plus 100,000-150,000 army soldiers.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 15 Feb 2011 12:28

munna wrote:Link to Teleconference of Kashmiri Pandits with Interlocutor

Please scroll down to bottom of the page to listen recordings of the views of 436 KPs from all parts of the World and demand for a homeland with UT status in valley.

In a teleconference wherein nearly 436 Kashmiri Hindus representing USA, Canada, UK, Australia, France, New Zealand, India, Germany and Austria were connected and bonded for 90 minutes with Dilip Padgaonkar, one of the three interlocutors appointed by the Government of India on Jammu and Kashmir, the Global Kashmiri Pandit Diaspora made a strong presentation on all the aspects of Kashmiri Hindu struggle in exile.

Besides touching various facets on the plight of Kashmiri Hindu refugees, the main focus of the program was introduction to why Homeland? The demand for homeland was introduced and connected with the past history of Kashmiri Pandits. It was stressed and argued by many speakers that this was the only option to protect this unique and distinct community from becoming extinct.

Forced to live in exile for more than two decades, the global Kashmiri Hindu Diaspora demanded carving out a homeland for in Kashmir valley with Union Territory status.

Will these NRI Pandits come back for real if such a UT is created ?

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 15 Feb 2011 12:39

jamwal wrote:Will these NRI Pandits come back for real if such a UT is created ?

there have been demands in the past for a spearate UT status for Ladakh, of course statehood for Jammu..Problem with the approach is that actual carving up of the state along the known fault lines simply creates a nice isolated animal in the Kashmir valley (comprising of Kashmiri muslims)...Such a well-defined target makes it easier for the global campaign to focus itself on the "plight" of Kashmiri muslims, as opposed to the messy multi-denominational, multi-religious affair there is right now...Which plays to our advantage...

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 15 Feb 2011 12:52

I'm not in favour of carving up the state either, but currently Kashmiri Muslims are sucking up every thing. Unless Jammu and Laddakh are given assembly seats and budgetary grants comparable to their size, population and contribution to economy, Kashmiris will have no incentive to play nice. Being a problem child is beneficial for them.
You don't need to formulate grand strategies spanning continents to solve this problem. A powerful pro-Indian lobby is already present in J&k. All it needs is diversion of resources and power to Jammu-Laddakh from Kashmir.

ManishH · Post by **ManishH** » 15 Feb 2011 19:14

jamwal wrote:Will these NRI Pandits come back for real if such a UT is created ?

They've been tested and found wanting. The army should train and arm a new generation of civil militia from Jammu/Doda region. You need hardy rural folk as the seed, whereas most KPs were urban white collar.

munna · Post by **munna** » 15 Feb 2011 19:30

jamwal wrote:Will these NRI Pandits come back for real if such a UT is created ?

Utterly rhetorical question stemming from a need to criticise the victim! The said conversations are with the Interlocutor Padgaonkar, this teleconference was conducted to ascertain views of all Pandits whether in India or abroad. So out of all the voices some are resident and other are non-resident. Very unfair characterisation of those petitioning for their rights as NRI Pandits!
The larger point is that as it is Valley is dominating and dictating the terms for all 3 regions in the state and it has to be cut down to size and not handed over more influence. Panun Kashmir was initially opposed by me as an idea but after 2010 disturbances and Amarnath agitation prior to that there is no other way but to sandbox the insurgency. In the current stalemate it is far too easy for the RANDEs to sell us down the drain by confusing and convoluting issues involved. Naa rahega naa bajegi bansuri, divide and break the state to make it unprofitable and illogical to claim anything out of the mess. Period, creative chaos.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 16 Feb 2011 16:37

I have no intention to start another NRI debate here and am not criticizing the victim either.
I pointed out NRI Pandits because this group is unlikely to come back to India except for a few R-to-I cases. It's the exiled Pandits living in India who need to be taken care of. How big is NRI expat community? a few thousand at maximum ? Compare it to 3lakh+ living in India.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 16 Feb 2011 16:41

ManishH wrote:
jamwal wrote:Will these NRI Pandits come back for real if such a UT is created ?
They've been tested and found wanting. The army should train and arm a new generation of civil militia from Jammu/Doda region. You need hardy rural folk as the seed, whereas most KPs were urban white collar.

Yup. There is 5-6 lakh strong community of displaced people from POK living without citizenship rights in J&K and near by states. Most of them are non-muslim, so no particular attention is given to their plight.

Edit: This link says the number is 12 lakh

munna · Post by **munna** » 16 Feb 2011 19:25

jamwal wrote:I have no intention to start another NRI debate here and am not criticizing the victim either.
I pointed out NRI Pandits because this group is unlikely to come back to India except for a few R-to-I cases. It's the exiled Pandits living in India who need to be taken care of. How big is NRI expat community? a few thousand at maximum ? Compare it to 3lakh+ living in India.

Being expat or non-expat is irrelevant to this debate because the group talking to Padgaokar had Pandits from India and abroad. It was NOT a mere NRI pandit sammelan, it included Pandits from all walks of life, states and countries.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 16 Feb 2011 20:22

ramana wrote:X-posting CRS as as usual went of on tilt and posted in pakI thread!

CRamS wrote:Sorry to sound harsh, but Indian elite and many a Indian public were ecstatic at slum dog Oscars witout realizing that they are pissed upon.

Thus, I am wondering if US isn't capable of pulling of the following stunt post Egypt. First instigate the Kashmiri Muslims to go on a revolt Egyptian style demaning "azaadi" and "freedom" from "Indian oppression". They then call up their boy MMS and tell him to restrain the security forces, as if he needed any prodding (he might actually deploy the security forces against any Indian nationalist opposition to KM demands). In the mean time, with some nudge, nudge strategy from CIA, the Bakara types, Sagarika Ghosh types, and other "green generation" as Sagarika calls western aping Indian middle class; all go marching into the streets of New Delhi in support of the the "right of self determination" and "azaadi" and "freedom" of KMs from "oppression"; and rope ever more #s in a day or two using facebook and twitter, all this circus augmented with round the clock commentary on CNN, BBC, Faux about what a great democracy India is, how Gandhian Mirwaiz fakroo and the vegeratrian terrorist are in their peaceful demands for freedom, and wallah the final nail on India's coffin, MMS declaring in address to the nation and world from the ramports of the red fort that as the world's largest democracy and living up to democratic principlesz, he grants KMs their "azaadi". And of course, the Sweedsih Nobel committee announes the joint Nobel for him, Mark Zuckerberg, and Kiyani soon after.

This kind of a scenario is not fiction, a realistic scenario speculated on recent developments under MMS & Co.

If anyone really even dicusses this idea as a possibility on forum or elsewhere, do please also discuss along with it - how good an example it would be for a majoritarian version for larger parts of India. Let us cheer the Kashmiri Muslim to try an and do an Egyptian for liberating Kashmiri Muslims from Hindu and Indian rule - because that clears the way for a similar dance based on the culture and religion of the majority of the Indians. Whoever finds the Kashmiris exercising their humanitarian rights cannot object to similar humanitarian rights extended to other communities.

The unbiased, and totally neutral humanitarians, on this forum and outside, in-desh or out-desh, will be up twisting their trousers, pajamas, choosts to protest such "Egyptians" from happening!

munna · Post by **munna** » 16 Feb 2011 20:27

brihaspati wrote: The unbiased, and totally neutral humanitarians, on this forum and outside, in-desh or out-desh, will be up twisting their trousers, pajamas, chusts to protest such "Egyptians" from happening!

B-ji actually that is what the idea behind Ekta Yatra was, to show counter mobilization capacity and warn the government about any such ideas in summer. The strong rumour in circles was about a "Kashmir Spring" when thinner troop presence and 6 month residence permits were to be used in conjunction to build a critical mass of "peaceful" protests leading to a joint sell-out mechanism. A counter mobilization is not entirely unfeasible under current circumstances and "peace at any cost" lobby should better watch its step now.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 16 Feb 2011 20:45

I think the potential should be insisted on whenever this talk of "Kashmir spring" comes up - lets say a "lilac revolution" - which will open up the door for a "purple revolution" (purple is the colour of zafran when its alive and not yet dead).

munna · Post by **munna** » 16 Feb 2011 21:01

brihaspati wrote:I think the potential should be insisted on whenever this talk of "Kashmir spring" comes up - lets say a "lilac revolution" - which will open up the door for a "purple revolution" (purple is the colour of zafran when its alive and not yet dead).

To top it all the pretence of intellectual debate on policy making should be stopped now. As is apparent I have steadfastly refused to indulge in any debate with people on the other side or even explain my position because the die has been cast on that side. They have decided to engage and talk about useless plans based upon power dynamics that are more than a decade old to gain some gold coins. Any debate just serves to provide cover fire for people with other agendas. Some national issues are beyond debate and none shall be entertained to debate on those. Entire state of J&K and its final accession to India is one of those.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 16 Feb 2011 21:06

Agreed. But they should not be left the field to enjoy and propagate. They are essentially self-contradictory and inherently hidden agenda driven. So using their own logic on the items they detest ususally gets them into a bind. That is all what I was suggesting.

munna · Post by **munna** » 16 Feb 2011 21:13

brihaspati wrote:Agreed. But they should not be left the field to enjoy and propagate. They are essentially self-contradictory and inherently hidden agenda driven. So using their own logic on the items they detest ususally gets them into a bind. That is all what I was suggesting.

Actually your style of debating and getting the "peace at all costers" to tie their knickers in a knot is very refreshing indeed. I was referring to the larger and often harmless garden variety Ramus and Krishnans who venture into this debate unknowingly. People with little or no knowledge of J&K or just superficial idea of the state venture into a debate against vested folks who are well versed in the art of propaganda. In such situtations mango folks often come back home confused and little less sure of national position on J&K. That sort of one sided stage managed debate needs to be shut down.

Your posts are a veritable cornucopia of knowledge and debate points that have come handy for me in mano a mano situations

. My sincere regards...

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 16 Feb 2011 22:57

Need to open shop in Delhi to sell some French maal which may be in big demand in post 'revolution/aramb of parchand " phase to provide real piece to "peace at all cost" folks.

ManishH · Post by **ManishH** » 17 Feb 2011 14:02

jamwal wrote: Yup. There is 5-6 lakh strong community of displaced people from POK living without citizenship rights in J&K and near by states. Most of them are non-muslim, so no particular attention is given to their plight.

Edit: This link says the number is 12 lakh

Ah! if half the energy spent in pseudo-nationalist tiranga yatras are devoted to mobilizing these refugees and
creating an internal zionist movement in J&K, we can see results on the ground this decade.

Long term, a dilution of separatism by effecting a demographic change in the valley is needed.

Venkarl · Post by **Venkarl** » 17 Feb 2011 19:02

ManishH wrote:a dilution of separatism by effecting a demographic change in the valley is needed.

It can be achieved either by repealing Art.370 allowing people of India to establish business and settle down in Kashmir Valley or families in Jammu and Ladakh breed at an exponential rate and populate all over Valley. {not an immediate solution}

But it all looks like Day Dreaming to me....I have no hopes on INC as its decades of ruling India didn't even attempt of repealing Art.370...though BJP got its chance in Vajpayee's days, it couldn't repeal.."coalition dharma" may be

....I "may" have 1 more "hope" on BJP/NDA if at all it comes to power...if that too fails...we on BRF will continue to talk on Kashmir till we die until CRams's opinions don't come true...

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 18 Feb 2011 11:29

The dwindling Kashmir-Britain militant pipeline

Foreign Policy Magazine

http://afpak.foreignpolicy.com/posts/20 ... t_pipeline

Largely unremarked beyond in South Asia, last weekend marked the twenty-seventh anniversary of the death of Maqbool Butt.

...

A set of connected events that while anomalous at the time presaged what used to be the one of the main motors of jihad in the U.K.

Claiming to be members of the Kashmir Liberation Army, the kidnappers snatched Ravindra Mhatre, then the deputy Indian High Commissioner in Birmingham, as he stepped off the bus on his way home with a birthday cake for his daughter. Bundling him into the back of a car, they took him to the Alum Rock part of the city where they held him for a day while demanding through the press £1 million in cash and the liberation of Maqbool Butt. Quickly losing patience, the men waited about a day before taking Mhatre into the countryside outside the city and executing him outside a farm. The Indian government's response was swift and within less than a week they had expedited the hanging of Maqbool Butt, who had been sitting on Indian death row for almost eight years for the murder of a bank manager during a robbery.

The executions were a shock and the first public example for Britons of the depth of feeling and connection between the Kashmiri population in the U.K. and their relations on the other side of the globe. Political parties and religious leaders would use the U.K. as a base for fundraising and rallies, families would travel back and forth and send children and brides to join other family members, and militant factions would seek money and recruits to support the cause of Kashmiri liberation back in South Asia. Years later, this would provide the next generation of young men with both a network of contacts to go and join militant groups in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but also normalize the notion of going abroad to fight for a cause.

And in the years immediately after the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001, the pipeline this created was at the heart of British terrorism problems. Operation Crevice in 2004 (the fertilizer bomb plotters), Operation Rhyme the same year (the cell led by long-term Lashkar-e-Taiba warrior and author Dhiren Barot), the July 7, 2005 attack on London's public transport system and Operation Overt (the 2006 attempt to bring down seven planes as they were in transit across the Atlantic) all owed something to this pipeline, with key individuals in all cases being initially drawn to the cause of jihad through the Kashmiri cause. The proximity of Kashmiri groups to their ideological brethren in al-Qaeda and interchange between them meant al-Qaeda was able to tap this network for a string of plots targeting the U.K.

But since this apex in the mid-2000s, the problem has now shrunk a bit. While security officials are clearly still alert to the potential problems engendered by the enduring Pakistani connection in the U.K., the threat has now evolved in a number of different directions.

One recent example of how this threat has evolved is the case currently on trial at Woolwich Crown Court in which Rajib Karim, a confessed member of Jamaat ul Mujahedeen Bangladesh, a Bangladeshi jihadist group attempting to establish a shariah state in that nation, is accused of plotting with Anwar al Awlaki, the American-Yemeni preacher linked to al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula, in Yemen to carry out attacks in the U.K. or U.S. It does not appear as though any of the strands in the plot lead back to Pakistan, and seems instead to have been an externally directed effort from Yemen linked up with Bangladeshi extremists in the U.K. This is merely the latest such plot from al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula in a string that includes Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab on Christmas day 2009 and the parcel bombs from late last year -- both of which also had London links.

Then over Christmas, police disrupted a cell of mostly Bangladeshi-Britons they accuse of plotting to carry out a series of attacks in the U.K., while in Stockholm an Iraqi-Swede radicalized in Luton blew himself up in a suicide attack attempting to target a shopping mall. And late last year, Roshonara Choudhry, a young woman who had attempted to kill British parliamentarian Steven Timms for his support of the Iraq war, became the latest in a growing list of lone wolf attackers who seemingly using only the internet radicalized and attempted to carry out an attack in the U.K.

In none of these plots has there been evidence of a Kashmiri connection. This does not mean that the Pakistan-U.K. connection has now been completely severed, however. In April 2009, British police disrupted what they think was a major plot emanating from Pakistan's tribal regions as part of a wave of attacks in New York, the U.K. and Oslo (admittedly all in varying degrees of preparation), and according to the confession of David Headley, a key plotter in the deadly 2008 Mumbai attacks, in August 2009 he connected with a cell of Pakistanis from Kolti in Derby who were in contact with Ilyas Kashmiri, the former Lashkar warrior now thought to be close to al-Qaeda. And in the fall of 2010, European officials searched for a group of plotters supposedly coming from Pakistan's tribal regions allegedly seeking to attack targets in the U.K., France, and Germany.

But none of these resulted in a plot emanating from Kashmiri-British network, and for almost three years now it has been tough to see a plot that draws as from this nexus in the same way as the plots of several years ago. Problematically for British counterterrorists, this has not apparently reduced the overall threat -- just sent it scattering in a variety of different directions.

ManishH · Post by **ManishH** » 19 Feb 2011 08:12

Venkarl wrote:It can be achieved either by repealing Art.370

Even if art370 was repealed today, you won't find anyone from our saffron brigade volunteering to take up residence.

Settlers need to have a stake traditionally these categories ...

1. Displaced inhabitants who are willing to resettle and defend themselves
2. Outsiders who want to settle out of religious zeal
3. Men of arms or kin of armymen who have laid down their lives.

Since we don't have 1. and 2., the only alternative is 3. Existing paramilitary camps should be expanded into residential enclaves by offering tracts of land to their families. Many of the jawans come from landless agricultural families or whose land parcels have shrunk. I'm sure they will be willing to take the opportunity; not to mention effect on morale that families bring to fighting men.

Land parcels should also be awarded to J&K inhabitants who demonstrate loyalty to the state - eg. what do the J&K police medals get today ? http://jandkpolice.org/medals.htm - a paltry reward for loyalty.
Let us give them a big estate where they can raise a large family and
influence their kin to show loyalty too the nation.

It's a lesson of history that territory cannot be held by arms alone if settlers are absent - Russia in Alaska, France in Louisiana, Spain in Calif/Ariz/Texas.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 19 Feb 2011 22:17

ManishH wrote:
Even if art370 was repealed today, you won't find anyone from our saffron brigade volunteering to take up residence.

Who is this "saffron brigade". Can you explain.

ManishH · Post by **ManishH** » 20 Feb 2011 10:36

Acharya wrote: Who is this "saffron brigade". Can you explain.

Sir - it's the brigade that is asking for rights to cultivate zafran in
the valley

given a chance, will tuck it's tail. Anyway, I have a
feeling that's controversial, so I suggest we just drop
it like gentlemen; and discuss constructive ways of diluting the
separatist population in the valley and increase the number of
loyalists ...

Encouraging news - J&K youth throng to army recruitment rally ...
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 530771.cms

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 21 Feb 2011 02:29

I hope beta is hearing what abba is saying
Kashmir will never be separated from India: Farooq

Patna: Despite inflamed socio-political conditions, Kashmir would not be separated from India, Minister of Renewable Energy Farooq Abdullah said here on Sunday.

Speaking at a conference on Urdu, Mr. Abdullah regretted that the events that had taken place in the strife-torn valley during the last few decades had deviated from Mahatma Gandhi's “vision of an ideal Hindustan.”

The former Chief Minister bemoaned the fate of the Hindu Kashmiri Pandits and the repeated allegations against the State's Muslim populace — who were being dubbed as “secessionists” and “militants” by divisive and anti-secular forces.

According to the former Chief Minister, the special place that Kashmir held in the hearts of the body politic in 1947 had steadily corroded as a result of the bloody strife that engulfed it in the early 1990s.

Lamenting the fact that the Muslim populace was often looked upon as a “fifth column” acting against the interests of the nation, Mr. Abdullah stressed that the people of Kashmir were not to be looked upon as Pakistani Muslims.

Mr. Abdullah took particular note of the fact that Kashmiri youth had been frequently denied lodgings in Delhi merely on suspicion that the latter had links with Pakistani insurgents.

“We have brought this misfortune upon ourselves. All of us are equally responsible for the Valley's troubled condition today,” he said.

Stressing the need to preserve Urdu, Mr. Abdullah said the Central government must accord it the status of a “second state language.”

He said the 40 Muslim parliamentarians would place demands before Parliament during this Budget session, calling for special status to Urdu, notably in the implementation of a “tri-lingual language formula” system in schools, as per the Ranganath Mishra commission's recommendations.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 21 Feb 2011 05:23

So now after all talk of being part and parcel - now support to reservation even in the linguistic department? It is time we reject languages that heavily borrow [and not just a few loan words] from foreign languages from nations who themselves do not acknowledge any contribution of India [except perhaps Islamic preachers and missionaries going out there and contributing to Islamism] in their culture and language. Why should we support languages that take pride in their Turkic or Arabic or Persian heritage given that Turkic or Arabic or even modern Persian do not easily acknowledge any debt to Indic languages - with public money?

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 21 Feb 2011 06:12

Its OT on this thread, but people like Farooq Abdullah do great disservice to Urdu by associating it with "muslims" only (muslim MPs!)..In the current Lok Sabha, the most erudite Urdu speaker is a certain Pawan Kumar Bansal, the Parliamentary Affairs minister..Urdu is a grand part of India's heritage, and hindus (non-muslims rather) have made as much contribution to its enrichment as muslims - Daya Shankar Naseem, Firaq Gorakhpuri, RS Bedi in recent times - the list is long...

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 21 Feb 2011 07:39

and please add Gulzar(for the uninitiated Gulzar is his pen name his original name is Sampooran Singh Kaltra) to the list of non muslim Urdu writers/poets

Vikas · Post by **Vikas** » 21 Feb 2011 09:57

Why should a Muslim MP from say Kerala or TN or WB or MH care about Urdu ?
What is his/her fascination for a language that is hardly spoken or understood by his/her constituency ?