Indian Naval Discussion

[Raghavendra]

Navy planning to induct four Landing Platform Docks http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_na ... ks_1507289

[Philip]

The X-47B is due to start testing within the year.Conformal radars will be used on future LR UAVs.Even China has tested/fielding a naval UAV with folding wings for its future carriers.Currently,the IN has been using its Herons extensively controlled from both land and sea.The concept of a heavy manned E-2D with a rotating radome is passe.The drag on the aircraft is literally "a drag"! It is why Israel has gone in for conformal flat slab radars for its AEW aircraft.In discussions with informed sea-salts,the increasing use of UAVs/UCAVs is the way of the future,as we do not intend to build super-carriers of USN size,where they can afford the luxury of a manned E-2D.AS said before,the IN shoudl joinhands with the IAF for acquiring its own variant of the CABS AEW aircraft using the Embraer platform.Cost-effective,will be mostly indigenously developed and will not come with strings attached like the E-2D!

[Juggi G]

Eurofighter's Pitch To The Indian Navy



From Eurofighter World

[Juggi G]

Naval Typhoon, On offer To Indian Navy, At Aero India-2011

"The work required to navalise Typhoon is quite modest. Studies have been completed and computer simulations have proved the concept. The process involves some strengthening of the existing airframe and under carriage, but this produces a weight differential of only 500kg from the existing aircraft - which is minor for an aircraft of Typhoon's power. So it has little effect on the aircraft's performance".
BAE

[GeorgeWelch]

The X-47B is due to start testing within the year.

The first trial landing on a carrier won't be till 2013 at the earliest. That will be after THIRTEEN YEARS of development. Where you will get your carrier-capable UAV from?

Conformal radars will be used on future LR UAVs.

Maybe, but how far in the future? Are there any planes with conformal radars flying now? And that's just standard radars, powerful AEW radars are a whole additional headache.

Currently,the IN has been using its Herons extensively controlled from both land and sea.

'Controlled' from the sea is meaningless, being able to actually take-off and land from a carrier is what is tough.

The concept of a heavy manned E-2D with a rotating radome is passe.The drag on the aircraft is literally "a drag"!

Yes the rotating radome has disadvantages, but it also the most capable solution available today.

It is why Israel has gone in for conformal flat slab radars for its AEW aircraft.

Which are significantly less effective directly ahead and behind the plane. Boeing has tried to address the issue on Wedgetail with 'end fire' but it remains to be seen how effective that is.

But even still, no one is using conformal arrays for AEW aircraft.

as we do not intend to build super-carriers of USN size,where they can afford the luxury of a manned E-2D

The IAC-2 is rumored to be about the same size as the CVF, which will operate the E-2 quite comfortably.

AS said before,the IN shoudl joinhands with the IAF for acquiring its own variant of the CABS AEW aircraft using the Embraer platform.

Which doesn't operate from carriers . . .

[Singha]

EMALS + Rafale2 (M88-4-EPE)/F-18 + NLCA + 4xE2-E sounds like a juicy option for IAC2 - subhanallah.

[samavedi]

Just came across this image of the IAC at the following site.

http://asian-defence.blogspot.com/2011/ ... -will.html

I am not sure if this has been posted before. Do we know how recent this picture is?

Samavedi

[johnny_m]

That looks like the Vikramaditya. See the buildings and skyline and the truck, don't look like CSIL.

[samavedi]

Thank You. Is there any published picture of the IAC showing how far it has progressed?

[putnanja]

I think SNaik had posted that image earlier, not sure whether it is the same or not. Wonder where SNaik is, he used to post regular updates on the IN ships under construction in Russia

[prithvi]

Thank You. Is there any published picture of the IAC showing how far it has progressed?

I have exactly the same question...

[chackojoseph]

IN Divers have broken a national record for diving. I will give you the details tomorrow.

[SNaik]

I think SNaik had posted that image earlier, not sure whether it is the same or not. Wonder where SNaik is, he used to post regular updates on the IN ships under construction in Russia

Not much to report
Teg (hull #1) is finally ready for builder's trials, starting in March. Trikand (hull #3) will be launched mid-March.
Vikramaditya has not changed outwardly since last December, most of the work goes on inside, they are busy installing steam pipes for heating and air-conditioning equipment.
Certainly, there will be pictures when Teg starts trial runs in the Baltics.

[Philip]

Look,IAC-2 will arrive only by 2020,9 years hence! By then,the E-2D will be obsolete.AS mentioned earlier,the drag of a rotating radome penalises the aircraft's performance in range,enndurance and speed.It is a simple case of Uncle Sam wanting us to buy another system ,like the C-17,that will be shortly ending production.From all previous reports the IN has repeatedly told the US that it does not want the E-2D.Where then can the E-2D be of any use? Landbased? Even here,it is a slow aircraft with very limited range.It cannot equate itself with either the SAAB AEW platform or our indigenous CABS AEW aircraft based upon the Embraer 145 platform.The Israeli's use conformal slab radars on their Grumman platforms similar in size with the SAAB/Embraer types.If the IN wnats a land-based aircraft,then buying the same AEW system as the IAF would be the ideal way to go.If it wants even more endurance,then the long endurance UAVs that we have (Herons,which will also be in the future superseded by Israel's Super Herons with 5 day endurance) are already operational.For even longer endurance systems,Grumman's hybrid airship,which can be manned or unmanned ,carries a 20t payload making it able to carry a mix of anti-ship and anti-sub missiles and torps,has a phenomenal enndurance of 21 days!

These examples are the future,not the E-2D,whose design and concept belongs to the past.As I also mentioned,within the next few years the X-47B and other naval UAV variants will make their presence felt ,both helo/VTOL and conventional variants,and by 2015,we will see the scenario change and general direction in which carrier-based aviation will develop futher.Unmanned aircraft,both UAVs and UCAVs are the most rapidly developing weapon system in aviation and the number of such programmes under development far outnumber those of manned aircraft.As said before,even the Chinese have studied the issue carefully and have already developed a folding-wing UAV prototype for their future carriers.Until 2010,AEW helos and unmanned helo-style UAVs will serve our carrier needs.There are no other alternatives available.The E-2D is unable to serve on our carriers Viraat,Vik or even IAC-1,and cannot compare with its rivals in a land-based mode.When we have an indgenous alternative almost at hand,why the indecent haste to buy Uncle Sam's inferior toys?

[Juggi G]

[GeorgeWelch]

Look,IAC-2 will arrive only by 2020,9 years hence! By then,the E-2D will be obsolete.

Incorrect, that would mean there was something dramatically better available in 9 years. And that's not going to happen. I know this because development would have to be starting about now to hope to be operational by then. And nobody is working on a new carrier-based AEW.

Of course there is no reason to purchase right now, but the IN is taking the first steps and investigating the available options.

AS mentioned earlier,the drag of a rotating radome penalises the aircraft's performance in range,enndurance and speed.

Weren't you just touting the Ka-31 as more than enough for India's needs?

Compare and contrast the range, endurance and speed of the Ka-31 and the E-2D.

It is a simple case of Uncle Sam wanting us to buy another system ,like the C-17,that will be shortly ending production.From all previous reports the IN has repeatedly told the US that it does not want the E-2D.

Well if the IN doesn't want it, you have nothing to worry about.

Where then can the E-2D be of any use? Landbased?

I would have to assume they meant it for possible carrier operations, but it works just fine land-based.

Even here,it is a slow aircraft with very limited range.

Incorrect, the E-2D and the Embraer have basically the same range.

It cannot equate itself with either the SAAB AEW platform or our indigenous CABS AEW aircraft based upon the Embraer 145 platform.

Incorrect, the E-2D provides greater coverage.

These examples are the future,not the E-2D,whose design and concept belongs to the past.

The problem is that you're talking about the FAR future. What may or may not be available in 30 years isn't relevant when you have a ship launching in 9.

And the E-2D will remain the absolute most capable choice in that timeframe.

As I also mentioned,within the next few years the X-47B and other naval UAV variants will make their presence felt

There will be no carrier-capable AEW UAV available by the time IAC-2 launches.

both helo/VTOL and conventional variants

If the E-2D is too slow and short-ranged, why do you keep bringing up the even slower and shorter-ranged (not to mention less capable) VTOL possibilities?

When we have an indgenous alternative almost at hand

Incorrect.

India has no indigenous carrier-based AEW platform in development, must less 'almost at hand', that is even remotely comparable to the E-2D.

[khukri]

Conformal radars will be used on future LR UAVs.

Maybe, but how far in the future? Are there any planes with conformal radars flying now?




But even still, no one is using conformal arrays for AEW aircraft.

Yes, the Israeli GF550 based system uses conformal radar arrays
http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/caew/

[VinodTK]

Japan to take part in India-U.S. naval exercises again

The Malabar series of exercises, from April 2 to 10, will include Japanese ships, in keeping with the growing proximity, in a wide variety of spheres, between New Delhi and Tokyo, said government sources.

India had stopped involving more countries in the Indo-U.S. exercises after China, in 2007, sent demarches to all the participants of a five-nation naval exercise held in the Bay of Bengal. With last year's Japanese participation raising no political storm, India was once again agreeable to the idea of allowing the Japanese Maritime Self Defence Force to participate.

The sources said that as India was keen, following the acquisition of marine heavy-lift capabilities, to engage with the U.S. Marines, the Pentagon agreed to have one such exercise off Okinawa.

[chackojoseph]

Indian Navy Divers create new national record of 233 metres

Lieutenant Commander Abhijeet Sangle, Chief Petty Officer KK Singh, Chief Petty Officer Shriom Singh, Leading Seaman MK Prusty, and Leading Seaman Narender Kumar dived to a depth of 233 metres in the seas off Kochi, breaking an earlier record set by Indian Navy divers.

[Philip]

Let me shortly list out a host of new UAV designs being developed.The one certainity that I will predict is that though the E-2Ds built recently may still be flying on US carriers,because o =f their relative youth,they will be obsolete and surpassed by new UAVs.An E-2D simply cannot match the 5 day endurance currently available on super-Herons.Even the US (GBA) is developing new large "shipborne heavylift" gyroplane/gyrodone designs for carrier ops,which can easily be converted into AEW aircraft with conformal arrays.(IDR Dec.2010 issue).These aircraft designs are about twice the size of an E-2D.Another concept is the "Fanwing" design, of 10t size,designer Pat Peebles,meant for urban surveillance and could easily be adapted for maritime surveillance too.I however maintain and predict that ultra-endurance UAVs with folding wings will replace manned AEW aircraft aboard carriers by 2020.

If the E-2 was so marvellous,why then have the Pakis gone in for SAAB Erieye AEW aircraft? Thailand has also gone in for 2 SAAB aircraft.The E-2s were available to them .Malaysia is unlikely to be offered the E-2D version however and will in all probability go in for the SAAB bird.The UAE have also made the SAAB their interim choice and the Saudi-Pak combine are planning for more SAAB joint acquisitions.

Here is a link to our very own AEW bird model from Aero-India.

http://defense-update.com/wp/20110210_n ... eiled.html

The first ERJ-145 configured for the DRDO light AEW&C mission will roll out in 10 days in Brazil. This model displayed at Aero-India by the CABS shows some of the unique design features of this aircraft.

A tail view of the new EMB-145 platform showing a different tail configuration, as some of the antennae were moved to the side fairings.
DRDO CABS and Embraer have unveiled today the new transparent configuration of the ERJ-145 configured by Embraer for India’s Defense Research & Development Organization (DRDO) Center of Airborne Systems (CABS) indigenous Airborne Early Warning and Control (AWE& C) aircraft. While the original concept was to use the standard configuration of ERJ-145 developed for the Brazilian Air Force, which is already in operation with Greece and Mexico, the Indian application required more adaptations, as depicted in the model displayed at Aero-India at CABS.

The aircraft has five workstations operating the radar, ESM and other sensors on board.
According to Sergio Bellato, Director of marketing and sales Embraer, the first aircraft is expected to be unveiled at the rollout ceremony in Brazil on February 21, 2011.

This aircraft will fly during the first half of 2011 and is scheduled for delivery to the DRDO for mission systems integration during the second half. The remaining two aircraft will be delivered in 2012. Final integration will be done by the DRDO in Bangalore, India.

The aircraft is configured to carry the Active Array Antenna Unit (AAAU), developed by CABS. An ESM system, fully integrated with the AEW&C system is also on board (presumably housed in the bulges seen on the two sides).

The aircraft is equipped with five operating consoles and seven crew seats for resting, provision for aerial refueling probe provides the aircraft with extended mission duration.

The current contract provides for the development and procurement of the first three aircraft. While India has a need for more AEW&C, the air force has not decided yet what mix of aircraft to buy.

PS:MY main contention is that for a land-based AEW aircraft,why should we buy a turbo-prop AEW E-2,when an indigenous designed AEW radar on a superior Embraer ERJ-145 aircraft platform is available! I thought that the holy grail of the MOD/natiuon was to promote indigenous defence systems so that we would be independent? As my friend in the loop says,"a US radar and aircraft can very easily be compromised during a crisis with Pak,unlike an indigenoussystem like ours",which is why he prefers the ERJ-145/CBAS AEW system for the IN.

[dinesha]

Navy to issue Rs 50,000 crore submarine tender this year
http://www.deccanherald.com/content/138 ... crore.html

The Navy will issue a global tender for procuring six next generation submarines worth over Rs 50,000 crore by the end of this year.

"The government has cleared Project-75 India which is the next lot of six submarines... At the moment we are going with the Request for Information (RFI) process, I hope within this year we would be able to push off the tender," Navy chief Admiral Nirmal Verma told reporters on the sidelines of a submarine seminar.

Project-75 India is a follow on of the Scorpene submarine project, six of which are being built by the Mazgaon Dockyards Limited (MDL) under a Rs 20,000 crore deal with French company DCNS.

With a depleted submarine strength, the Navy is planning to induct over 12 submarines in the next 10-12 years. The plans have also suffered a setback in view of the delays in the construction of the Scorpenes in Mumbai. Talking about the capabilities of future submarines, the Navy chief said, "It will be a different boat in the sense that we are revising its Qualitative Requirements. Along with better sensors it will also have better hiding capability, improved detection range and combat management system."

He said the navy would go for the Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) systems for the submarines, which would enhance their capability of remaining submerged in water for a longer time period. On the weapon systems to be put on the next line of under water vessels, Verma said Navy was planning to use a mix of indigenous torpedoes along with the missiles which are being deployed on the Scorpene submarines.

To a question on safety of Indian fishermen being targeted by the Sri Lankan navy, he said, "The issue was highlighted during the visit of the Sri Lankan President also. The joint working group on fisheries is supposed to address these issues and that is the way to resolve it."

He denied knowledge of any apprehensions expressed by China on India's forthcoming exercises with the navies of the US and Japan. "You have to bear in mind that it is not the first time these exercises are happening. I am not aware of any such apprehension," he said. On the annual exercise TROPEX, the Admiral said that besides elements from army and air force, the navy would also include its amphibious elements for the first time in the exercise.

"TROPEX in terms of involved expenses and platforms is the largest exercise we have. This time we have huge amphibious elements including the participation from army and the air force," he said. Indian Navy inducted its first amphibious warship INS Jalashwa from US in 2007.

[dinesha]

India to issue $11 bn tender for six more submarines
http://www.sify.com/finance/india-to-is ... jecah.html

New Delhi, Feb 16 (IANS) To shore up its depleting submarine fleet, India will this year issue a $11 billion global tender for building six more next generation vessels, navy chief Admiral Nirmal Verma said here Wednesday.

The new submarine programme, known as Project 75I, will be a follow-on to the six Scorpenes that are being built at the Mumbai-based Mazagon Docks Limited (MDL) under Project 75.

'The government has already cleared Project 75I. At the moment we are going through the process of Request For Information (RFI). I hope within this year we will be able to push the tender,' Verma said on the sidelines of a National Maritime Foundation seminar on submarines.

French firm DCNS is now executing the Project 75 Scorpene orders in collaboration with MDL at a cost of $4 billion.

The Indian Navy operates 14 diesel-electric submarines at present after it decommissioned two Foxtrot class submarines last year. Of the 14 submarines, 10 are Kilo class Soviet-origin vessels and the rest are HDW German-origin vessels. The navy issued the RFI for Project 75I in September last year and some of the global firms that have responded to it are Russian Rosoboronexport, French DCNS/Armaris, German HDW and Spanish Navantia. The Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) chaired by Defence Minister A.K. Antony had given a nod for Project 75I last July.

On the capabilities of the Project 75I submarines, Verma said they would have better capabilities to detect and hide from enemies and an improved combat management system, sensors and detection range.

Under Project 75I, the Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) technology will be incorporated in the submarines to increase their capability to remain submerged for longer periods of time. India is expected to induct the 12 Project 75 and 75I submarines in the next decade-and-a-half. The submarine induction programme of the navy has sufferred due to a three-year delay in the Scorpene project, resulting in the fast depletion of the fleet. The 12 vessels would now be inducted one after the other over six years beginning 2012. The vessels are part of the 30-vessel submarine induction plans of the navy that was approved early in the last decade.

The number of navy's submarines is likely to be just the half of the current 14 vessels in 2015, as most of them are aging and would be decommissioned in the next five years.

Under the plans for Project 75I, India would order two submarines from a collaborating foreign shipyard while the rest four would be built at two different Indian shipyards -- Mazagon Docks Limited and Visakhapatnam-based Hindustan Shipyard. The navy was keen on a private domestic shipyard to tie-up with a foreign vendor for the six new submarines as it was of the view that Mazagon Docks was already 'busting at its seams' with orders and timely delivery of the second line of submarines was 'critical' to maintaining its operational readiness. But the DAC decided otherwise, holding that the capabilities acquired by Mazagon Docks through the Scorpene project should not be wasted.

[John]

PS:MY main contention is that for a land-based AEW aircraft,why should we buy a turbo-prop AEW E-2,when an indigenous designed AEW radar on a superior Embraer ERJ-145 aircraft platform is available! I thought that the holy grail of the MOD/natiuon was to promote indigenous defence systems so that we would be independent? As my friend in the loop says,"a US radar and aircraft can very easily be compromised during a crisis with Pak,unlike an indigenoussystem like ours",which is why he prefers the ERJ-145/CBAS AEW system for the IN.

Philip E-2D does have advantage in naval AEW role (compared to a ERJ-145 AEW platform). The turboprop allows it operate at lower altitude and slower speeds while performing patrols for the fleet. The air to air refueling capability is a major plus and E-2s main drawback not enough consoles/operators is a moot issue since the data can be transmuted to the ships

[JTull]

John, Indian E-145s will have air to air refueling as per the AEW presentation at Aero India.

[rgsrini]

The turboprop allows it operate at lower altitude and slower speeds while performing patrols for the fleet.

If slower speed is very crucial, then the way to go about it is to leverage the Indian experience with AEW (ERJ145) and implement a similar solution on a turbo prop plane (which ever one that may be) using the Indian developed Radar.

Buying E-2D or anything else is just throwing valuable money and experience away, IMHO. My gut (has been wrong quite a few times ) tells me that RFI is just to understand the capabilities/strategies of E-2D and turn around and implement an Indian version of it.

[Baldev]

it is known that 6 helix coming with mig29k are all KA-31 but carrier should also have KA-28,although AC will not go alone in sea but still it would be better to have ka-28 to protect against subs.

[kit]

Whats the consensus on why 6 subs would cost 50,000 crore ? Infrastructure for a second line ?

[sum]

Under the plans for Project 75I, India would order two submarines from a collaborating foreign shipyard while the rest four would be built at two different Indian shipyards -- Mazagon Docks Limited and Visakhapatnam-based Hindustan Shipyard. The navy was keen on a private domestic shipyard to tie-up with a foreign vendor for the six new submarines as it was of the view that Mazagon Docks was already 'busting at its seams' with orders and timely delivery of the second line of submarines was 'critical' to maintaining its operational readiness. But the DAC decided otherwise, holding that the capabilities acquired by Mazagon Docks through the Scorpene project should not be wasted.

Wonder how far this deal will go given the past record of UPA-I and II in getting big deals ( non-FMS) through?

Something tells me this will be artillery saga redux..

[Austin]

The P-75I is another scam in the making , what the IN wants is a AIP equipped submarine from first sub in new class , which they could have got via Scorpene SSK design since its modular enough to fix an AIP.

What we have is another round of Tender to select another submarine which if not a scorpene design will mean another class of SSK with no tactical advantage , another production line up with new logistics facility and almost $11 billion spent to buy something that Scorpene AIP variant provides.

The IN should just go for a closed/restricted tender with Spain and French and opt for either S-80 design a Scorpene derivative or Scorpene with AIP.

[Singha]

S80 is larger and uses a lockheed combat system. I do not see much commonality to leverage there. if cost and time are important criteria, a enlarge scorpene with AIP section is the only logical way forward. use the exocet SM40 and keep provision for Nirbay with a couple of enlarged torpedo tubes if needed (2 XL tubes, 4 normal tubes). I really wonder why subs these days keep 6 tubes (the days of surfacing and firing a spread of 6 torps on a fat convoy are long over...)..mostly its 1-2 ships being attacked followed by a quick escape..in that sense even 4 tubes provide enough salvo and redundancy...the space saved for the tubes could be used for extra reloads.

if we had a domestic SSK sub design with substantial amt of material and machinery sourced from local suppliers it would be a different picture.

[Austin]

Singha you are right on the S-80 its a larger sub and uses lockmart CIS , I had Naval Forces issue which had nice detailed interview on S-80 will try to scan that up , it certainly is the closest you can get to Scorpene keeping the weapons system and equipment as common as possible , iirc it even has a different type of AIP. Scorpene with AIP will be quick and ideal.

I think the 2nd line of sub tender is just to ensure the Amur line creeps in , nothing against the sub but its a resource drain for IN manning two different types over a period of 30 years or its life cycle and no tactical advantage to offer.

[vishnu.nv]

i thought Amur would be cheap.... 11 billion for 6 subs is hell lot of money. I thought IN would go for some customized AIP sub similar to RAN Collins class with ability to fire Nuke tipped Nirbhay.

[Singha]

the DCN "Marlin" could be a player...as also its futuristic SMX21 concept

[Austin]

the DCN "Marlin" could be a player...as also its futuristic SMX21 concept

The pictures I saw of so called Marlin , it looks like a younger brother of Scorpene , they look identical in most respect just that Marlin is smaller , may be they just changed names and made the sub smaller to extract money from Pakis

SMX21 concept are good but they just look too revolutionary for IN to be its first customer , certainly one of the high risk design out there with not even the host country operating or planning to do it.

The U212 is a good sub certainly a much better proposition then Amur , it has a proven AIP in there and Fuel Cell is something the IN is aspiring to have ,its a proven sub as well , but it still defeats the basic concept of operating two types with no great tactical advantage to boast about.

Last time around as a last ditch effort when the scorpene got selected the germans even offered U-212/214 with a good offer of buy 6 subs at the cost of 4, the germans will be more than happy to sweeten the deal.

[GeorgeWelch]

Let me shortly list out a host of new UAV designs being developed.

We're talking about CARRIER UAVs.

An E-2D simply cannot match the 5 day endurance currently available on super-Herons.

Super-Herons won't fly from CARRIERS.

Even the US (GBA) is developing new large "shipborne heavylift" gyroplane/gyrodone designs for carrier ops

No they're not.

http://www.groenbros.com/aboutgba.php

However, while the Heliplane project continues to be a DARPA program, the funding necessary to commence Phase II has not been allocated. As a result, when it became clear in May 2008 that GBA could not be assured of timely funding of Phase II, it became necessary to let go many of the highly qualified engineers and other staff that had been responsible for the success of Phase I

These aircraft designs are about twice the size of an E-2D.

Then how are they going to fit on a carrier? Twice the size is a HUGE negative.

Another concept is the "Fanwing" design, of 10t size,designer Pat Peebles,meant for urban surveillance and could easily be adapted for maritime surveillance too.

'Fanwing' has been around for over 15 years and gotten exactly ZERO traction within the military. What makes you think anything is going to change?

I however maintain and predict that ultra-endurance UAVs with folding wings will replace manned AEW aircraft aboard carriers by 2020.

If it's not already in development, it will be literally impossible for that to happen. The X-47 has been in development for over 11 years and its first carrier trials still aren't even schedule for another 2 years. The most extremely optimistic forecast for the X-47 to be operational is coincidentally 2020, at which point it will have been in development for TWENTY YEARS. And that of course assumes that nothing goes wrong between now and then. And frankly AEW is tougher to design/build/debug than a 'simple' UCAV.

If the E-2 was so marvellous,why then have the Pakis gone in for SAAB Erieye AEW aircraft?

You can make the same argument about any competitive products.

If the SAAB is so great, why have Egypt, France, Israel, Japan, Singapore and Taiwan gone for the E-2?

If Rafales are so great, why have they never been able to win an export order?

If the MiG-35 is so great, why isn't Russia willing to buy them?

Here is a link to our very own AEW bird model from Aero-India.

Which you will note does not operate from a CARRIER.

PS:MY main contention is that for a land-based AEW aircraft

My main contention is that land-based AEW aircraft don't operate off a CARRIER.

a superior Embraer ERJ-145 aircraft platform

Incorrect, the E-2D has the same range and superior loiter time.

[tsarkar]

NG belives E-2D, that uses same engines like the latest Herc, is sufficiently powered for STOBAR ops.

The P-75I is another scam in the making , what the IN wants is a AIP equipped submarine from first sub in new class , which they could have got via Scorpene SSK design since its modular enough to fix an AIP.

Problem is Frenchies will increase price for anything beyond contact options. So fresh tender is necessary, like AJT second tender that was won again by Hawk.

Having said that L&T is out, and HSL is in. Shows Govt commitment to efficient Pvt Shipyards vis-a-vis PSU so sick that they're on Life Support.

[vina]

Yawn.. The E2D is the only game in town. The problem is not with the radar per se (for which there are options from DRDO, Isreal, France everyone), but rather the airframe. The E2 is the only carrier capable AEW (and in it's tanker version) platform avialable in the world and only the USN with it's fleet of supercarriers has the economies of scale to build and develop one in the foreseeable future.

No wonder ,even the French, despite having a radar powerhouse like Thales use EC-2 for their carriers! This is a classic case of plugging into an existing ecosystem and not some quixotic tilting at the windmills like ERJ (err.. are you telling me that someone is going to fly an ERJ off a carrier ??) . As for Unmanned AEWs are concerned, I doubt that can happen at all given current state of tech.

The key advantage of AWACS is the ability to process the radar info right there on the platform and have C4I. Historically the US could do it, because of the lead in computers and hence could mount powerful , but small and lightweight computers on an airframe to do it. The Russians historically couldn't and went with concepts like ASWACS (the radar airborne , but processing on the ground etc), beacuse of lack of processing ability!. That is simply a namby pabmy solution, that is limited by bandwidth, line of sight and all the ususal drawbacks like susceptibility to jamming and countermeasures etc.. If you want high bandwidth 2 way, beyond line of sight, then even current satellite based stuff can't handle it I think. So lets give that UAV based AEW a rest. You need processing inside the UAV and C4I control capability (which only a human being in front of a console inthe next 30 years will do, despite all the IT/Vity advances foreseeable). So , okay, you can possibly have a UAV without a pilot but with a human passenger.. which begs the question, why the hell for , if you have a passenger, it takes next to nothing to put in a pilot as well!

[Austin]

Problem is Frenchies will increase price for anything beyond contact options. So fresh tender is necessary, like AJT second tender that was won again by Hawk.

IIRC the original scorpene tender was with ( 6 + 6 option ) but if new tender can help in reducing cost it would be welcome , fundamentally i some how do not like the idea of operating two types of same gen SSK with little tactical advantage but a big over head for the next 30 years.

I like the idea of building submarine batches in blocks where major/incremental upgrades are added with each block and where ever possible the same innovation is backported to older blocks , keeps thing simple,cheaper ,common and logistically sustainable.

The USN Virginia SSN program is a good example of how to build a submarine in various blocks and keep cost low and production schedule on time.

[GeorgeWelch]

$11 billion global tender for building six more next generation vessels

11/6 = $1.8bn per sub

Coincidentally that's the same price as a new Virginia class nuclear sub, which seems a little high for an AIP model.

(Put another way, $11 billion buys two Ford class super carriers.)

[Neshant]

must be a typo.