MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Drishyaman · Post by **Drishyaman** » 15 Feb 2011 20:40

Seems like Rafale and Mig - 35 didn't get the time to have photo opportunity with static display, they started flying with weapons

Avid · Post by **Avid** » 15 Feb 2011 21:13

It appears that the MRCA thread is increasing becoming an "advertisement through awesome pictures" thread.

Typically, most fighter aircrafts will look beautiful like actresses. Some may prefer one beauty over another based on looks alone. However, ability and capability to act is what differentiates the Meryl Streeps from Jessica Albas.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 15 Feb 2011 21:36

yes but in all cases, mujahids will maalish their mijjiles...

kmc_chacko · Post by **kmc_chacko** » 15 Feb 2011 22:08

we have taken almost 10 years to issue RFI & testing for buying 126 combat aircrafts either equal to or exceeding performance compared to IAF Mirage-2000's. and now if they say they will increase the order from 126 to 200+ aircrafts then it is utter foolishness. They first sign deal with somebody then we can think of either going for 126 or 260.

we need another deal like Su-30. IAF got deal for procure 40 4gen Su-30MK's in 1996 and just look at where the order and quality of aircraft stands, a majestic 270+ now that what we call a execution follow up of a order.

That how we should go not like taking decade to decide how much we need and another decade for testing and finalizing.

aditya.agd · Post by **aditya.agd** » 16 Feb 2011 03:10

India should not buy anything that has American foot prints especially in the multi-role fighter category.

I will vouch for

200 LCA
300 MCA
300 Rafale
300 MKI

50 Mirage 2000-5mk2
60 Mig29 UPG
Jaguar 150

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 16 Feb 2011 03:34

aditya.agd wrote:India should not buy anything that has American foot prints especially in the multi-role fighter category.

You will be sad to know that there is not a single plane in the MMRCA which doesn't have US-made components. Forget the Euro-canards, not even the Mig-35!

Such a blanketed prejudice doesn't help us, but that is my opinion. You are completely entitled to your opinion. I don't intend to change yours. Just wanted to bring the above information to your notice.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 16 Feb 2011 04:10

We never hated khan foot prints, and in fact we an infatuation towards it. Who doesn't like to catch up with un-kill?
The point of contention should be all about who can choke us more, and choose the least choker.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 16 Feb 2011 04:45

IAF set to soar again

jimmy_moh · Post by **jimmy_moh** » 16 Feb 2011 12:19

http://www.thalesgroup.com/Press_Releas ... on_Rafale/

nits · Post by **nits** » 16 Feb 2011 12:51

jimmy_moh wrote:http://www.thalesgroup.com/Press_Releas ... on_Rafale/

Suggest you to please post headline and quote some part of article to give an idea what this article is referring to, or speaks about...

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 16 Feb 2011 13:07

Thales AESA RBE2

Click for hi-res.

Thales AESA RBE2 radar validated on Rafale

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 16 Feb 2011 13:17

aditya.agd wrote:India should not buy anything that has American foot prints especially in the multi-role fighter category.

I will vouch for

200 LCA
300 MCA
300 Rafale
300 MKI

50 Mirage 2000-5mk2
60 Mig29 UPG
Jaguar 150

Pay too ?

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 16 Feb 2011 13:52

F-16 IN

http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/1894/f16in.jpg

saptarishi · Post by **saptarishi** » 16 Feb 2011 14:01

PratikDas wrote:Thales AESA RBE2

Click for hi-res.

Thales AESA RBE2 radar validated on Rafale

853 T/R MODULES very less compared to other MMRCA competitors,gripen ng has 1000,f-16in has 1000,f-18in has 1100,eurofighter has 1427,,mig-35 fga35 has 1084,,,sos the range might be less

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 16 Feb 2011 14:19

Rahul M wrote:the gripen NG is a nice plane but choosing it for MRCA would kill the LCA, as simple as that. the signs are everywhere.

How much choosing a double engined might hurt the AMCA also has to be considered.

sumshyam · Post by **sumshyam** » 16 Feb 2011 14:45

abhik wrote:How much choosing a double engined might hurt the AMCA also has to be considered.

I don't think any of the double engine can as of now affect AMCA in negative way. It is pretty much on the drawing board..I hope that technologies from these aircrafts will be a feeder for AMCA...!

Henrik · Post by **Henrik** » 16 Feb 2011 16:07

saptarishi wrote:853 T/R MODULES very less compared to other MMRCA competitors,gripen ng has 1000,f-16in has 1000,f-18in has 1100,eurofighter has 1427,,mig-35 fga35 has 1084,,,sos the range might be less

Just wanted to point out that SAAB and Selex says that the ES-05 RAVEN will have 1000 T/R modules. But so did Thales with the RBE-2AA for Rafale, which apparently turned out to only have ~840 T/R modules.

However, the Gripen NG has a slightly larger nose cone diameter than the Rafale and the radar will be tilted when fitted to the swashplate mechanism, so in theory 1000 T/R modules shouldn't be a problem for the Gripen NG. A pre-production model of the RAVEN will be delivered during Q3 this year, hopefully there'll be some pictures out by then.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 16 Feb 2011 19:52

Guys,

All the discussions are good WRT the merits and demerits of the different contenders for the MRCA programes. The qustion looking at the 155 MM mess comes to mind is. Just what will prevent the repeat of the same farce with this program. IOW, just what prevents the looses from raising the cry of kiskbacks and Renuka Chaudhary running to CBI with that.

aditya.agd · Post by **aditya.agd** » 16 Feb 2011 21:14

It seems that both IAF and Indian Army appear to be against indeginization and Indian Navy seems to be a champion of the indeginous affairs.

Let us all put all the indegenous components on the indian navy and let IAF and Indian army depend upon imports. I hope that Indian navy emerges as the largest component of indian armed forces in future.

It's extremely frustrating to hear that Gripen may sound the end-bells for LCA. Gripen is comparable to LCA and should be rejected outrightly. Since it also carries American Engine it can be a threat to our nation. We cannot have 1/3rd of our force depending upon American engines.

Choosing F414 was itself a bad choice. We should have selected EJ200.

aditya.agd · Post by **aditya.agd** » 16 Feb 2011 21:18

Just imagine an irony of a situation where a Pakistani F16 dropping bombs on Indian positions and Indian Planes (with American Engines) fighting them off.

The profit from both sides go to Uncle Sam. I hope nationalist Indians on this forum take cognizance of that fact. If gripen was with European Engines I would have still considered .....

I hope MMS doesn't interfere .....

Drishyaman · Post by **Drishyaman** » 16 Feb 2011 21:51

Very valid points aditya.agd ji.
Hopefully, our MOD takes into consideration all these factors.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 16 Feb 2011 21:58

aditya.agd wrote:J..I hope MMS doesn't interfere .....

Too late, too little. .. should have thought about it when you(people) voted him to power.

Drishyaman · Post by **Drishyaman** » 16 Feb 2011 22:04

PratikDas wrote:Thales AESA RBE2

My 2 cent. It would be in the best interest of india to go in for Rafale considering its other strenghts afpart from technical like being sanction proof and political gains, if not Mig - 35
Also , we can ask for help from Thales for developing our own AESA Radar, considering the fact that Thales RBE2 AESA Radar is smaller having only 853 T/R MODULES, which being small would be ideal for our Tejas MK - II.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 16 Feb 2011 22:06

If numbers are less, it does not mean the sizes are small.

Raveen · Post by **Raveen** » 16 Feb 2011 22:10

aditya.agd wrote:Just imagine an irony of a situation where a Pakistani F16 dropping bombs on Indian positions and Indian Planes (with American Engines) fighting them off.

The profit from both sides go to Uncle Sam. I hope nationalist Indians on this forum take cognizance of that fact. If gripen was with European Engines I would have still considered .....

I hope MMS doesn't interfere .....

More ironic than Chinese planes powered by Russian engines bombing us from both borders?

Or Russian planes/clones of Russian planes bombing us from both borders?

Sir, kindly stop trolling and realize the cold war is over and the world is sold to the highest bidder now, no true friends just the same old enemies and desi mismanagement

MarcH · Post by **MarcH** » 16 Feb 2011 22:13

aditya.agd wrote:It seems that both IAF and Indian Army appear to be against indeginization and Indian Navy seems to be a champion of the indeginous affairs.

Let us all put all the indegenous components on the indian navy and let IAF and Indian army depend upon imports. I hope that Indian navy emerges as the largest component of indian armed forces in future.

It's extremely frustrating to hear that Gripen may sound the end-bells for LCA. Gripen is comparable to LCA and should be rejected outrightly. Since it also carries American Engine it can be a threat to our nation. We cannot have 1/3rd of our force depending upon American engines.

Choosing F414 was itself a bad choice. We should have selected EJ200.

Sorry, you can't select the F414 as engine for Tejas and then disqualify Gripen because of it beeing powered by the very same engine. By the way there are very good reasons to pick the F-414 over the EJ-200 for a single engined fighter. The engine has already been certified for use on single engined fighters. A procedure that could have delayed Tejas even more, in case the EJ-200 had been selected.
And considering the Tejas has been reported as quite draggy, I don't see the reason for picking an engine designed for supersonic performance over one designed for subsonic cruise speeds.

Drishyaman · Post by **Drishyaman** » 16 Feb 2011 22:15

SaiK wrote:If numbers are less, it does not mean the sizes are small.

Understand that Sir ji, but someone said above size is also small would fit into Gripen nose.
But, a question for you, I want is know is if number is less will the range also be less as well ?

Drishyaman · Post by **Drishyaman** » 16 Feb 2011 22:22

MarcH wrote:Sorry, you can't select the F414 as engine for Tejas and then disqualify Gripen because of it beeing powered by the very same engine.

Sorry, That cannot be a reason either for selecting Gripen as MMRCA

MarcH wrote: And considering the Tejas has been reported as quite draggy.

Seems you have not followed AeroIndia 2011 neither you have been surfing the net of late.
News Flash !! for you, Drag Issue will be resolved shortly for Tejas MK-II and will be in production by 2015.

Henrik · Post by **Henrik** » 16 Feb 2011 22:53

Raveen wrote:More ironic than Chinese planes powered by Russian engines bombing us from both borders?

Or Russian planes/clones of Russian planes bombing us from both borders?

Sir, kindly stop trolling and realize the cold war is over and the world is sold to the highest bidder now, no true friends just the same old enemies and desi mismanagement

It could be even more ironic with China bombing India with french-made planes.

Drishyaman · Post by **Drishyaman** » 16 Feb 2011 23:01

Henrik wrote:It could be even more ironic with China bombing India with french-made planes.

Hmm !! thatz a risk which definitely can’t be mitigated by buying a Swedish 4 th Gen Aircraft.
We need something better than a 4 th Gen Swedish aircraft.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 17 Feb 2011 00:00

Quite a nerve hitting question there drishyaman.. Dileep guru is qualified to answer you. There are various aspects right from the power output of these t/rs , beam steering, shaping and scan patterns required, etc. So imho, technically one could think reduced number of t/rs could degrade performance [again we have not established what are the requirements here] to come to a conclusive figure.

More low noise aesa receiver means more sensitivity and thus detection range is my understanding. Ask the gurus.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 17 Feb 2011 00:11

Raveen wrote:
aditya.agd wrote:Just imagine an irony of a situation where a Pakistani F16 dropping bombs on Indian positions and Indian Planes (with American Engines) fighting them off.

The profit from both sides go to Uncle Sam. I hope nationalist Indians on this forum take cognizance of that fact. If gripen was with European Engines I would have still considered .....

I hope MMS doesn't interfere .....
More ironic than Chinese planes powered by Russian engines bombing us from both borders?

Or Russian planes/clones of Russian planes bombing us from both borders?

Sir, kindly stop trolling and realize the cold war is over and the world is sold to the highest bidder now, no true friends just the same old enemies and desi mismanagement

Can't agree with you more. I wish there was a like button or something. I wish objective thinking prevails over prejudice. Buy what is best for us, as cold heartedly as the rest of the world is going about their business of milking us. Strict customer-buyer relationship. Full stop.

Raveen · Post by **Raveen** » 17 Feb 2011 00:24

indranilroy wrote:
Raveen wrote:
More ironic than Chinese planes powered by Russian engines bombing us from both borders?

Or Russian planes/clones of Russian planes bombing us from both borders?

Sir, kindly stop trolling and realize the cold war is over and the world is sold to the highest bidder now, no true friends just the same old enemies and desi mismanagement
Can't agree with you more. I wish there was a like button or something. I wish objective thinking prevails over prejudice. Buy what is best for us, as cold heartedly as the rest of the world is going about their business of milking us. Strict customer-buyer relationship. Full stop.

Well said sir, that is exactly what the is giving the Chinese the edge...they negotiate ruthlessly, and copy shamelessly...similar to what Isreal does, we on the other hand are aiming for appeasement at the highest level and are filled with prejudice at the lowest *facepalm*
Get some of those IIM MBAs to negotiate our contracts, heck even as a mid-term internship I am sure they'll beat the babus who currently negotiate the contracts

Anthony Hines · Post by **Anthony Hines** » 17 Feb 2011 00:37

Get Lakshmi Mittal, Mukesh Ambani and others like them on the negotiation panel. Offer them an incentive with a wish list and set them loose - tab ayega mazaa.

Doddel · Post by **Doddel** » 17 Feb 2011 01:00

News from: Monday 10 January 2011
After cuts in RAF budget:

It has also emerged that the RAF is to scrap more than 50 Eurofighter/Typhoon jets which became operational only three years ago at a cost of more than £4.5bn because it cannot afford to update them.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/jan/1 ... e-1bn-cuts

Any comment about this?

The Britts will rather scrap 50!!! brand new fighters than upgrading them. Upgrade??? They are 3 years old!!! Obsolete after 3 years.. haha... Is this a joke? I cannot see why India should buy this junk and then try to futher develop this a/c to catch up it's obsolete technology. EF must be the biggest fraud of all time. According to the Britts it is worth more scrapt. After ages of development the a/c have no ground and naval strike. It is not multi role... How should India ever be able to upgrade it on it's own. Burning the money seems like a better choice.

Henrik · Post by **Henrik** » 17 Feb 2011 02:13

Drishyaman wrote:
Henrik wrote:It could be even more ironic with China bombing India with french-made planes.
Hmm !! thatz a risk which definitely can’t be mitigated by buying a Swedish 4 th Gen Aircraft.
We need something better than a 4 th Gen Swedish aircraft.

In that case you shouldn't get any of the MMRCA aircrafts because they are all of the same generation.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 17 Feb 2011 05:03

Doddel wrote:The Britts will rather scrap 50!!! brand new fighters than upgrading them. Upgrade??? They are 3 years old!!! Obsolete after 3 years.. haha... Is this a joke? I cannot see why India should buy this junk and then try to futher develop this a/c to catch up it's obsolete technology. EF must be the biggest fraud of all time. According to the Britts it is worth more scrapt. After ages of development the a/c have no ground and naval strike. It is not multi role... How should India ever be able to upgrade it on it's own. Burning the money seems like a better choice.

This is Tranche 1 EF's that unlike the T2 and T3 are have design limitations preventing them from a full upgrade to T3 standards. And the scrapping is still being contemplated - its not been sanctioned.

It says it needs fewer pilots because it has reduced its fleet of fighter aircraft through the axing of 66 Harrier jets. It is also likely to shrink the Tornado fleet by half, to 60. The number of Eurofighter Typhoons will remain at 160 once all the aircraft have been built.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstop ... sq-content

Arya Sumantra · Post by **Arya Sumantra** » 17 Feb 2011 05:19

Raveen wrote:Sir, kindly stop trolling and realize the cold war is over and the world is sold to the highest bidder now, no true friends just the same old enemies and desi mismanagement

Yes, yes go ahead and get stuff from whoever offers the best terms but at least learn what options can be treated at par before getting into features and superiority. Letting foreign intel loose on your bases in the name of “monitoring” and treating a lease as equal to ownership of a gear that too which can be turned into tupperware anytime, is stupidity passing off as open-mindedness.

Here, after paying for everything take a look at who holds the rights as the customer and who is a mere operator.

Indranil Roy wrote: I wish objective thinking prevails over prejudice.

There is no prejudice. We have been unable to get what we want from the said country in terms conditions & ToT, inspite of tall claims of our new found power like below

NRao wrote:India is not a country of the 80s or even the 90s any more. She has enough power to enforce such a change

srai · Post by **srai** » 17 Feb 2011 05:25

Doddel wrote:News from: Monday 10 January 2011
After cuts in RAF budget:
It has also emerged that the RAF is to scrap more than 50 Eurofighter/Typhoon jets which became operational only three years ago at a cost of more than £4.5bn because it cannot afford to update them.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/jan/1 ... e-1bn-cuts

Any comment about this?

The Britts will rather scrap 50!!! brand new fighters than upgrading them. Upgrade??? They are 3 years old!!! Obsolete after 3 years.. haha... Is this a joke? I cannot see why India should buy this junk and then try to futher develop this a/c to catch up it's obsolete technology. EF must be the biggest fraud of all time. According to the Britts it is worth more scrapt. After ages of development the a/c have no ground and naval strike. It is not multi role... How should India ever be able to upgrade it on it's own. Burning the money seems like a better choice.

If EF is chosen, these could be purchased and updated to IAF standards and that way another 3 squadrons could be raised quickly to address shortfall in numbers within the next 5 years.

Raveen · Post by **Raveen** » 17 Feb 2011 06:12

Arya Sumantra wrote:
Raveen wrote:Sir, kindly stop trolling and realize the cold war is over and the world is sold to the highest bidder now, no true friends just the same old enemies and desi mismanagement
Yes, yes go ahead and get stuff from whoever offers the best terms but at least learn what options can be treated at par before getting into features and superiority. Letting foreign intel loose on your bases in the name of “monitoring” and treating a lease as equal to ownership of a gear that too which can be turned into tupperware anytime, is stupidity passing off as open-mindedness.

Here, after paying for everything take a look at who holds the rights as the customer and who is a mere operator.

Indranil Roy wrote: I wish objective thinking prevails over prejudice.
There is no prejudice. We have been unable to get what we want from the said country in terms conditions & ToT, inspite of tall claims of our new found power like below
NRao wrote:India is not a country of the 80s or even the 90s any more. She has enough power to enforce such a change

*Facepalm*

Do you know what FMS is? please find out about FMS, and then make logical arguments to support your point. If GoI wants a system through FMS (for example let's say the C-130J as you have been kind enough to include above) GoI is willingly agreeing to the terms and conditions of the FMS which include *drumroll* the fact that the purchaser is just an operator, the GoUS is the purchaser and the deal is between the GoUS and GoI and not between Lockmart and GoI.
There should be some basic fact checking before posting instead of misconstruing what you don't understand...where I am from...naach na jaane angan teda
There is ONLY prejudice and no logic to your argument; no one is asking you to pay for FMS if you don't like the terms (which was our pt to begin with) but using FMS as an example of sinister evasdropping and snooping is illogical and self-evidently prejudiced