LCA News and Discussions

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 16 Feb 2011 04:49

A Sharma wrote:Tech Focus on LCA Technologies

This is the most comprehensive exposition of the LCA to date. Hats off to the team that worked on the project and brought it to completion despite the many ups and owns.

Great job!!!

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 16 Feb 2011 05:06

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 16 Feb 2011 07:39

vina wrote:
Dileep wrote:You don't need gigahertz bandwidth to pass guidance info. A single burst of less than 200 bits (not bytes) would easily do the trick. Jamming OTOH needs continuous emission, which can be homed on by the missile..
Well, it would be possible for the jamming platform to send a equally short burst of 200bits of false guidance signal to mislead (if they knew the communication codes, protocols and data encryption and protection schemes)

Nope. You need to know/guess the encryption key, which is impossible. There is no time to brute force the key either.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 16 Feb 2011 07:59

If anyone not noticed, height of LCA Mk1 is 4.4 m and for Mk2 is 4.6m.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 16 Feb 2011 08:10

Yes ... I thought it was because the rudder had to grow taller with the lengthening of the fuselage.

I may be wrong.

Arunkumar · Post by **Arunkumar** » 16 Feb 2011 08:12

Nope. You need to know/guess the encryption key, which is impossible. There is no time to brute force the key either.

Thats right. Also to mention techniques like random number generation, 64 bit encryption algorithm, device authentication etc. And these are nowadays implemented on cheap memory chips to keep lines secure on a printed circuit board (PCB).

nits · Post by **nits** » 16 Feb 2011 09:13

HAL orders 24 additional F404-GE-IN20 Engines for Tejas fighter jet

Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) has ordered an additional 24 F404-GE-IN20 afterburning engines to power the first operational squadron of Tejas fighter aircraft for the Indian Air Force. Value of the order is in excess of $100 million and follows an initial 2004 purchase of 17 F404-GE-IN20 engines to power a limited series of operational production aircraft and naval prototypes.

nits · Post by **nits** » 16 Feb 2011 09:14

Kaveri engine to be installed in 2018

The Indian-built engine for the country’s Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) may be ready for installation in 2018, a senior official of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) has said.“The gas turbine engine Kaveri will replace the GE-404 engines which are now being put in the LCA,” DRDO’s chief controller of research and development Prahlada told reporters here.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 16 Feb 2011 09:47

ramana wrote:
A Sharma wrote:Tech Focus on LCA Technologies

This is the most comprehensive exposition of the LCA to date. Hats off to the team that worked on the project and brought it to completion despite the many ups and owns.

Great job!!!

Thanks Ramana !

so the LCA has been designed keeping in mind the RCS of the aircraft and apparently some parts have been designed to minimize the RCS. This is probably the first confirmation of that. Plus machines that can transfer Indium-tin-oxide on the windshield and canopy to reduce cockpit RCS reflections. So maybe later on when production Tejas' join squadron service, they'll have golden shaded canopies !

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 16 Feb 2011 10:22

So does this mean, that the order for LCA-Mk1 is now around 60 ? 20 + 20 for IAF and + 19 for Navy ? We are already at 59 for MK-1's till 2015/2016 time frame.

Arya Sumantra · Post by **Arya Sumantra** » 16 Feb 2011 10:52

Kartik wrote: Plus machines that can transfer Indium-tin-oxide on the windshield and canopy to reduce cockpit RCS reflections. So maybe later on when production Tejas' join squadron service, they'll have golden shaded canopies !

Some colour not necessarily gold. Colour depends on film thickness and refractive index of the film material(ITO here). The gold shaded canopies looked golden from every angle so they have to be metallic gold thin films, thin enough to be translucent. Acco. to someone on keypubs those were polycarb impregnated with gold. ITO is a smarter choice.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 17 Feb 2011 01:19

Kartik, Also ponder about the whole system engineering capability displayed in those charts! The comprehensive requirements planning and verification displayed. Every para in that report has gobs of info for those who know what it means! A pointer on the software process achieved is in line with Capability Maturity Matrix level 3 or above.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 17 Feb 2011 01:24

Cybaru wrote:So does this mean, that the order for LCA-Mk1 is now around 60 ? 20 + 20 for IAF and + 19 for Navy ? We are already at 59 for MK-1's till 2015/2016 time frame.

No. Navy will only use mk2 AFAIK.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 17 Feb 2011 01:28

Gaur wrote:
Cybaru wrote:So does this mean, that the order for LCA-Mk1 is now around 60 ? 20 + 20 for IAF and + 19 for Navy ? We are already at 59 for MK-1's till 2015/2016 time frame.
No. Navy will only use mk2 AFAIK.

Suman sharma report above alludes to 19MK-1's. Am I reading it wrong ?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 17 Feb 2011 01:29

Cybaru wrote:So does this mean, that the order for LCA-Mk1 is now around 60 ? 20 + 20 for IAF and + 19 for Navy ? We are already at 59 for MK-1's till 2015/2016 time frame.

has navy ordered Mk1 specifically ? all I saw was a 46 Mk2 order from IN. Mk1 orders could be trainer though

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 17 Feb 2011 01:42

Kartik wrote: so the LCA has been designed keeping in mind the RCS of the aircraft and apparently some parts have been designed to minimize the RCS. This is probably the first confirmation of that. Plus machines that can transfer Indium-tin-oxide on the windshield and canopy to reduce cockpit RCS reflections. So maybe later on when production Tejas' join squadron service, they'll have golden shaded canopies !

Kartik,
Marketting angle aside, how much partial LO characteristics really matter? I mean, the fighters like Su-30 MKI and F-22 can practically act as mini AWACS while the firing range of most BVRs is still realistically under 50-60 km (optimistically speaking). So, whatever rcs reducing measures the fighters like Rafale, Typhoon, SH or even LCA incorporate, is not there a limit till which one should go? Admitiddly, any reduction in rcs is welcome. It certainly has "some" value. But are golden canopies even needed? My knowledge regarding the engineering process behind this is less than zero, but if F-22's canopy is anything to go by then it will be horrifyingly maintainance intensive.

My point is that I sometimes get a little baffled regarding the excessive LO measures taken (or demanded) in 4 gen fighters.

PS: Yes, we will not be fighting against against BARS or APG-77, but tejas will be in service for 40 years and it has been more than a decade since those radars were made.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 17 Feb 2011 02:00

Gaur it's not the golden canopies that make the F-22 maintenance heavy. even F-16's feature those.

srai · Post by **srai** » 17 Feb 2011 02:05

Rahul M wrote:
Cybaru wrote:So does this mean, that the order for LCA-Mk1 is now around 60 ? 20 + 20 for IAF and + 19 for Navy ? We are already at 59 for MK-1's till 2015/2016 time frame.
has navy ordered Mk1 specifically ? all I saw was a 46 Mk2 order from IN. Mk1 orders could be trainer though

IN could make use of the LCA Navy Mk1 for something like the Operational Training Unit/Conversion (OTU/C) after pilots complete their training on the Hawk AJT. Since the Mk1s are capable of operating from an aircraft carrier, it will be useful for the IN to have these for training purposes before pilots move on to the operational LCA Navy Mk.2, MiG-29K, and future a/c type.

On the other note, if the 20 (IAF) + 20 (IAF) + 19 (Navy) are true, then the production lines at 8 units/year rate will be busy till 2017 ... just when the Mk.2 version achieves its IOC and goes into serial production.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 17 Feb 2011 02:14

prod rate was said to be 8 for first year and scalable to 12 from next. they can touch 15 if pushed or given a large commitment I would guess.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 17 Feb 2011 02:27

Rahul M wrote:
Cybaru wrote:So does this mean, that the order for LCA-Mk1 is now around 60 ? 20 + 20 for IAF and + 19 for Navy ? We are already at 59 for MK-1's till 2015/2016 time frame.
has navy ordered Mk1 specifically ? all I saw was a 46 Mk2 order from IN. Mk1 orders could be trainer though

Thinking more about it, I think that report is wrong.

Suman sharma reports 4 single seaters and 4 two seaters in her claim for order of 19 Mk-1's.

I think what happened is, she is probably counting the 6 Mk-1 that navy ordered for 150 crores each sometime back and NP1 and NP2 to arrive at figure of 8. Not sure where she is getting the number of 19 from.

And then I think the navy will probably order 46 Mk-2's. That probably makes more sense for the navy.

So the final order for Mk-1's will probably be around 46 planes. 40 for IAF and 6 for navy.

Raveen · Post by **Raveen** » 17 Feb 2011 02:43

I have been trying to avoid asking this question but after numerous reviews of videos and pics and reading all over the interwebs...Tejas seems to have HUGE voritces for an aircraft it's size, if you review the videos with the smokewinders, you will notice what I am talking about and this seems to be a peculiar thing since I haven't noticed anythign similar (in terms of magnitude) from other contemporary aircraft. I assume this could tie in with the high drag issue which is probably also why we need more powerful engines.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 17 Feb 2011 02:51

deflection could be cheaper than absorption for RCS, but costly aerodynamics. If canopies can't deflect, then internally it needs to be absorbed. right?

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 17 Feb 2011 03:22

Rahul M wrote:Gaur it's not the golden canopies that make the F-22 maintenance heavy. even F-16's feature those.

F-22's canopy certainly contributes to F-22's maintainance nightmare.
http://www.domain-b.com/aero/20090711_m ... are_5.html

The plane's famed 'gold canopy' a million-dollar, radar-absorbing cause of envy for other fighter pilots has also caused problems. A stuck hatch imprisoned a pilot for hours in 2006 and, to date, engineers have been unable to extend the canopy's lifespan beyond about 18 months of flying time.

Anyways, my point was not agaisnt golden canopy persay. I know too little regarding the particular item to debate much upon it. I touched upon the subject as I was reminded of many members (not Kartik) who were hoping/demanding for addition of more "stealth features" in LCA mk2 before AI. This had included "f-22 like nose" and "diamond intakes". I was always bewildered by this and wanted to know his and others opinioin regarding this.

IMHO, rcs of 4gen fighters should not matter much. Sometimes is is good to try reducing rcs of 4gen fighter but only when
1>It does not add too much to complexity, maintainance, cost and development time.
2>When it is not at the expense of other things.

I feel tejas is a good example of this. The two major features of Tejas that contribute to decreasing its rcs are y-shaped air duct and extensive use of composites. The first was somewhat given considering small (you need to slow down the air somehow) and single engined nature of LCA . The second has more to do with weight. So, even with reduction in rcs, no other aspect was compromised.

So, I am just curious regarding other member's opinion on further rcs reduction measures on LCA.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 17 Feb 2011 04:05

Unless we know details on the type of composite, we have no idea about RCS reduction in LCA. Of course it shall be classified info and all assumptions. Let us assume a super duper composite that permeates all radiations then the internal structure of LCA decides how the waves get reflected back to source.

So, how are they done to avoid these waves inside matters right?

Sidhu · Post by **Sidhu** » 17 Feb 2011 10:24

I do feel that we would see a MK3 LCA with stealth features from the AMCA (way down the line). I also feel that LCA would be a good platform to experiment AMCA stealth aerodynamics also.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 17 Feb 2011 11:02

Dileep wrote:^^Of course, but the ready antidote is to switch to passive mode and home on the jamming signal.

That may not work if you put the jammer on a flying decoy (either autonomous or using wires).

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 17 Feb 2011 11:04

A few more items that may not have been reported before

1. Night flights of Tejas have started with the new NVG compatible cockpit lighting. 7-8 flights completed.
2. Tejas does not have an HF designation because its not a HAL product.

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 17 Feb 2011 15:44

Indian Air Force Set To Form Tejas Squadron

BENGALURU, India — The Indian air force (IAF) has begun preparations to form the first Tejas Light Combat Aircraft squadron here.

The No. 45 Sqdn. will be known as the Flying Daggers (the same as MiG-21/MiG-21BIS squadron).

Air Cmdr. B.R. Krishna, chief test pilot at the Aircraft Systems Testing Establishment (ASTE), tells Aviation Week that ASTE has identified two pilots to fly the Tejas as part of the IAF’s user evaluation, following the initial operational clearance (IOC) granted on Jan. 10.

The squadron will be first raised in Bengaluru before moving to Sulur in Coimbatore

On his blog Ajai Shukla is trying to compute the actual development cost of Tejas! Let us see what he comes up with...

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 17 Feb 2011 17:23

Gaur, that's not exactly a problem with the golden tint of the canopy glass. the mechanism and SW that controls the canopy movement is an entirely different thing.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 17 Feb 2011 17:43

Kailash wrote:Indian Air Force Set To Form Tejas Squadron

BENGALURU, India — The Indian air force (IAF) has begun preparations to form the first Tejas Light Combat Aircraft squadron here.

The No. 45 Sqdn. will be known as the Flying Daggers (the same as MiG-21/MiG-21BIS squadron).

Air Cmdr. B.R. Krishna, chief test pilot at the Aircraft Systems Testing Establishment (ASTE), tells Aviation Week that ASTE has identified two pilots to fly the Tejas as part of the IAF’s user evaluation, following the initial operational clearance (IOC) granted on Jan. 10.

The squadron will be first raised in Bengaluru before moving to Sulur in Coimbatore
On his blog Ajai Shukla is trying to compute the actual development cost of Tejas! Let us see what he comes up with...

I hope its inflation adjusted. I hope he takes into account the infrastructure that was also setup. Strictly speaking infrastructure setup costs must not be included in Tejas development costs since they will be used for other projects also.

What he is doing is not an easy task and there will be lots of arguments on what to include and what not. Fun times ahead.

Sancho · Post by **Sancho** » 17 Feb 2011 20:18

vina wrote:
Sancho wrote:From this Aero India? Can you post it please!
It is in this link of aeroindia 2011 pics

Thx!

Rahul M wrote: err sancho, that is just a loadout done by ADA for photo op, not necessarily what IAF would once it inducts and evaluates the bird. of course, even in that config it can carry 2 BVR AAMs on the centreline pylon, although that would certainly look odd. in a real war scenario we are hardly likely to see a lone fighter go on a strike mission. it would have at least another LCA escort with it, if not more.

Man it's hard to convince you.

Maybe this helps:

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2011/01/ph ... e-ioc.html

As you can see, they are simulating the same config that was shown on the ADA pic and as I said earlier, the Jags carry the same now in operational service as well. Btw, when we take the latest specs of LCA MK1 to account, this is the heaviest weaponload config it will be able to carry, because of payload restrictions. That rules out any further loads on the centerline station, let alone multi pylons. Actually are there any hints that we develop them? Would prefer to see them on MKI instead.

Regarding fighter escorts, I disagree, because LCA won't do deep penetration strikes on high value targets. LCA is meant for CAS, maybe anti ship strikes too, but that's it and the advantage of an multi role LCA, over an single role Jaguar, is the fact that it should be useful in both roles at the same time. With a good MMR and 4 x AAMs, it offers way more than the basic self defense capabilities of Jags, but exactly that is why I say, more stations (or more internal fuel) and a higher payload are badly needed to increase the capabilities. The same config than Jaguars can't be the aim for LCA, not to mention that N-LCA will be even more limited in terms of weapon configs.
The ski-jump take off will limit the payload and fuel and even with inflight refuelling, it hardly will be useful in any other role then air defense. Imo, a waste of money, time and resources, that could have been used better to improve the IAF version!

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 17 Feb 2011 22:07

sancho, frankly you are reading too much into a picture and ending up over-analysing from what is insufficient information. FYI, there's also a pic of a 'heavier' loaded LCA going around with a PGM or tank (I forget which) on the centreline. that means nothing.

secondly, did you even look at the link I gave you ? surely, a bit of serious range analysis by an expert has more weight than what you and I 'think' ?

Hiten · Post by **Hiten** » 17 Feb 2011 22:23

i believe some of these picturea haven't been posted before & some that have, have been watermarked by bloggers

http://www.aame.in/2011/02/india-light- ... tejas.html

Sancho · Post by **Sancho** » 18 Feb 2011 02:44

Rahul M wrote:sancho, frankly you are reading too much into a picture and ending up over-analysing from what is insufficient information. FYI, there's also a pic of a 'heavier' loaded LCA going around with a PGM or tank (I forget which) on the centreline. that means nothing.

secondly, did you even look at the link I gave you ? surely, a bit of serious range analysis by an expert has more weight than what you and I 'think' ?

Don't know, I just think there must be a reason why they test exactly these configs, that's all.
I did read it, but it's comparing strike loads and ranges with Mig 21s. LCA offers the same LGB strike capability like M2Ks, or Jags don't you think?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 18 Feb 2011 03:35

Can we look at the picture with LCA with a centerline load and the pod?

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 18 Feb 2011 05:13

ramana wrote:Can we look at the picture with LCA with a centerline load and the pod?

From Aero India

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/media/Aer ... 9.JPG.html

srai · Post by **srai** » 18 Feb 2011 05:52

Sancho wrote:
Rahul M wrote:sancho, frankly you are reading too much into a picture and ending up over-analysing from what is insufficient information. FYI, there's also a pic of a 'heavier' loaded LCA going around with a PGM or tank (I forget which) on the centreline. that means nothing.

secondly, did you even look at the link I gave you ? surely, a bit of serious range analysis by an expert has more weight than what you and I 'think' ?
Don't know, I just think there must be a reason why they test exactly these configs, that's all.
I did read it, but it's comparing strike loads and ranges with Mig 21s. LCA offers the same LGB strike capability like M2Ks, or Jags don't you think?

Typical Load Profiles (likely):

Combat Air Support (CAS)

2 x CCM (231lb x 2)
2 x 1,000lb bomb (LGB/PGM/Dumb) (1,000lb x 2)
2 x 1,200L external fuel tank (317gallon x 8.35lb x 2)
1 x Liten Pod (440lb x 1)

Total Weight (external): 3,717.6 kgs

Combat Air Patrol (CAP)

2 x CCM (231lb x 2)
2 x BVR (Derby/Astra/R-77) (441lb x 2)
2 x 1,200L external fuel tank (317gallon x 8.35lb x 2)

Total Weight (external): 3,010.9 kgs

Baldev · Post by **Baldev** » 18 Feb 2011 07:10

standoff weapons still needs to be integrated on LCA and derby falls short of requirement.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 18 Feb 2011 10:19

Baldev wrote:standoff weapons still needs to be integrated on LCA and derby falls short of requirement.

Derby is an excellent starting point.... It will all happen in due course..

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Feb 2011 12:22

since Derby is the LR component of the Spyder system , we can probably get rafael to update it with newer techs for use in our Tejas also.