Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Feb. 12, 2011

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somnath
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Feb. 12, 2

Post by somnath »

SSridhar wrote:Brad, the response to the bolded portion is a plain NO.
It is important to discern between islamist terror and the Kashmiri insurgency...the Paki factory of Islamist terror keeps humming unabated...But the J&K insurgency has been continuously winding down in its potency over the last 7-8 years...

http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/countries ... index.html

Its a secular decline in the last decade..

It isnt a tribute to "diplomacy" alone - the CI grid, border fencing have also played their part - but the insurgency is on a decline..Which is precisely why the attempts for intifada style uprisings...Diplomacy has played its part, of both the coercive as well as the "influencive" types - Musharraf's "wont allow territory to be used for terror" onwards...

While SATP is (as usual) quite scathing about the political initiatives (or the general lack of them), the final nail in the insurgency coffin is always political...And the political steps have also helped, including the elections that brought the quasi-spearatist PDP to power..
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Feb. 12, 2

Post by shiv »

VikramS wrote: A trade corridor built right along the Indus is not the same FATA/NWFP/Balochistan where the writ of TSP(A) exists in name only. Take a map and plot where the attacks on transportation infrastructure occur. FWIW the heartland along the Indus is fairly secure by TSP standards. Acess controlled highways, by their very nature are significantly isolated from the people who live along them.
The planned trade corridor is actually along the Indus and goes down South to skirt Karachi. It then heads east to Gwadar. Karachi is seen as too unstable and too close to India to be a safe port. Apart from that ships from the Gulf have to sail much further from the Gulf to reach Karachi. That is why Gwadar was considered a safer bet.

But as things stand, Gwadar was too insecure for Chinese expatriates to live and build projects there and it ws unprofitable to boot. The Chinese pulled out and the contract was awarded to a Singapore firm. Now some Pakistanis want the contract to be awarded back to the Chinese but I am not seeing the Chinese jump in with alacrity.

In the meantime the railways and roadways to connect China to Gwadar are either in a state of disrepair or incomplete.

One can expect China to execute those projects quickly and efficiently up to the Pakistan border. In the Himalayas there is a geographical problem of unstable passes that are frequently blocked by landslides. This might be an engineering issue that can be solved in the next 10-15 years.

The infrastructure that China requires for transport through Pakistan could be built by China in (my estimate) 5 years. If they started in 2011 it would be ready in 2017 - but the Himalayan part would not be ready. Gwadar could probably be readied in 3 years. But in my view the land route via Pakistan cannot start working with full efficiency till 2020 at the earliest mainly because of the geographical choke point in the Himalayas.

But all these estimates are based on work starting in 2011 and proceeding unhindered. China has the money and manpower, but China requires the Pakistani army/local Pakistani governments to provide security to the Chinese workforce who will require housing, a decent lifestyle for families of workers and engineers for period of 2-3 years at a time. Pakistan has not been able to do that. In theory China could put the PLA in Pakistan. Two problems there. That can't happen until the US pulls out. Secondly the PLA wil have to provide the security that the Pakistan army is unable to provide. If they face a security issue and use force that kills Pakistanis locally - it becomes a political issue that will delay things at best - but might stop everything at worst. That means uncertainty.

One can assume that China will put in any amount of money and any number of men, but I do not see that giving them any guarantees on the time that it will take to complete the corridor. My best estimate would be 2020 if work starts today and 2030 or beyond with delays.

In the final analysis I believe that it is not Chinese money or willpower but local factors on the ground in Pakistan that are the biggest hurdle. From an Indian viewpoint I want those local factors on the ground to be as hostile to China as possible. It is pretty hostile as things stand.

The local situation on the ground in Pakistan is hostile to America. One can theorize that the local situation on the ground will magically become friendly to Chinese workers if the US goes and is replaced by China. There are two confounding factors here. One is that the Chinese experience so far has not been good. Secondly. the "local factors" that make things difficult for the Americans are an effort by local groups like Pashtuns and Baluchis to control their own territory against the efforts of the Pakistan army and the Americans. If the Americans move out the Pakistan army will still have to do that job and I can't see how those groups would become friendly to China which would also act in coordination with the Pakistan army, just like the US.

So what can improve the "local situation on the ground" in Pakistan and make it friendly to the construction of major infrastructure projects to help China? Does India have a role at all? A whole lot of analyses from America say that the local situation on the ground in Pakistan can improve only if India-Pakistan relations can be normalized. Pakis are telling Americans that those relations cannot be normalized until the Kashmir issue is "solved". The Americans are therefore pressing India and Pakistan to "normalize relations" so that the local situation on the ground in Pakistan can get better for them. A stable Pakistan of course will help China too. It is therefore in India's interest not to cooperate with the US in stabilizing Pakistan especially if it means concessions to Pakistan. Pakistan must continue to be unstable as long as a stable Pakistan is against Indian interests. That is why I sound hostile to people who speak as if the American role in Pakistan is benign and positive.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Feb. 12, 2

Post by somnath »

GuruPrabhu wrote:Where I differ with you is that a "significant military presence" is good for India. A significant presence requires supply routes and that is the only handle TSP has on the US. A minimal presence with a massive airpower support is in India's interest.
It will be there - even an air presence require logistical support inland, unless you are talking of sustaining an air cover exclusively through a carrier-based force (which is prohibitely expensive)...

So it is a bit of a prisoner's dilemma - we need US in Af, it serves our interests..But US presence requires Pak cooperation, at least just yet...The issues therefore are not black and white, which is the mistake a lot of people make...IMO of course...
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Feb. 12, 2

Post by GuruPrabhu »

somnath wrote:
GuruPrabhu wrote:Where I differ with you is that a "significant military presence" is good for India. A significant presence requires supply routes and that is the only handle TSP has on the US. A minimal presence with a massive airpower support is in India's interest.
It will be there - even an air presence require logistical support inland, unless you are talking of sustaining an air cover exclusively through a carrier-based force (which is prohibitely expensive)...
Dronacharya has a nice comfy home in UAE. Plus, there are the carriers. All of this is infinitely superior to having a supply route that has its gonads in a Paki squeeze.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Feb. 12, 2

Post by A_Gupta »

As long as there is Iran and Russia (even if India is powerless) Pakistan won't have a free run of the region - if the region in question is Afghanistan.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Feb. 12, 2

Post by shiv »

GuruPrabhu wrote:
If the article had stated that "Powell was frothing at the mouth" would you have brought out your froth-o-meter to measure the froth level?

If the article had stated that "Powell saw red", would you have brought out your red-filter photometer to check the accuracy of the claim?

If the article had stated that "Powell was seriously pissed off", would you have contemplated the choice of bringing your piss-o-meter or alcohol blow-a-breath meter?

Expressions are expressions. Let them be and you will find peace.
Sir Thanks for your advice on how I could find peace. I will find peace in my own time and on my own terms.

However the article says nothing in terms of stating what role Powell had in talking to Musharraf in the 2002 standoff. That being case it makes me wonder how much of that article is "journalistic licence" that hides lack of information behind colorful "expressions" like "the riot act". I believe you missed that question when you chose to educate me that the riot act is just an expression. If you have any insight into facts as opposed to your insight about colorful "expressions" that you excel in using I would be grateful to hear it.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Feb. 12, 2

Post by GuruPrabhu »

shiv wrote:If you have any insight into facts as opposed to your insight about colorful "expressions" that you excel in using I would be grateful to hear it.
Saar, one service at a time. I attempted to educate you about expressions -- not sure how much you learned. Given the experience, I doubt I will attempt another shot at educating you. Save your gratitude for those who can help you. Be at peace and fare thee well.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Feb. 12, 2

Post by shiv »

GuruPrabhu wrote: Saar, one service at a time. I attempted to educate you about expressions -- not sure how much you learned. Given the experience, I doubt I will attempt another shot at educating you. Save your gratitude for those who can help you.
Thank you for accepting your limitations. You have me helped by not misunderstanding and going off on a tangent yet again. For that you deserve my gratitude.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Feb. 12, 2

Post by PrasadZ »

@Shiv:
<Noob analysis alert>
From my side of the world (NRI but east of Indic), PRC funding of Pakistan may have better outcomes for India than the current American hegemony out there.

a) A huge trade road through the himalayas is amenable to Indian mischief even more than the Indian ocean becoming India's ocean. How feasible would such a route be if China and India remain constantly antagonistic?
b) It will spur infrastructure development on India's eastern front as minds focus on our eastern borders. Roads into burma and thailand linking Chinese and Indian markets have the potential to remake the world. Access to central asia gives indian jingoes a hard on but what are the comparative fruits of that labor ?
c) China's entry into ME via Pak results in a truly multilateral security environment there - US/Europe and Russia will need to rebalance their efforts there and India has more cards to play. American hegemony of world power, effectively, freezes us out of there, is it not?
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Feb. 12, 2

Post by abhishek_sharma »

A_Gupta wrote:
From 1990 to 9/11, Pak had a free run in Af.....
If that is what is called a free run, then India has nothing to fear from it. From 1990-94, when the Taliban emerged, Pakistan was not successful in getting its proxies into power in Kabul. In 1996, the Taliban took Kabul; also the Northern Alliance was formed. Ahmed Shah Massoud and the alliance stood in the way of the Taliban until 9/9 when he was assassinated. Maybe if the Pakis had been content with 9/9 and eschewed 9/11, they would be in full control of Afghanistan now. But from 1990 to 9/11 perhaps only 2 days, 9/10 and 9/11, was there a chance of Pakistan getting its way.
India has nothing to fear from it? Pakistan had its way for only two days? I don't think Taliban needed Massoud's permission for doing anything in most of Afghanistan. IC 814 was not taken there between 9/9 and 9/11.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Feb. 12, 2

Post by GuruPrabhu »

shiv wrote:You have me helped by not misunderstanding and going off on a tangent yet again. For that you deserve my gratitude.
Saar, it is only humble men who misunderstand the power of the last word. 8)
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Feb. 12, 2

Post by shiv »

PrasadZ wrote: a) A huge trade road through the himalayas is amenable to Indian mischief even more than the Indian ocean becoming India's ocean. How feasible would such a route be if China and India remain constantly antagonistic?
b) It will spur infrastructure development on India's eastern front as minds focus on our eastern borders. Roads into burma and thailand linking Chinese and Indian markets have the potential to remake the world. Access to central asia gives indian jingoes a hard on but what are the comparative fruits of that labor ?
c) China's entry into ME via Pak results in a truly multilateral security environment there - US/Europe and Russia will need to rebalance their efforts there and India has more cards to play. American hegemony of world power, effectively, freezes us out of there, is it not?
Absolutely. I agree. Ulitimately a lot depends on how suspicious India and China are about each other.

But in the Pakistan context I don't see the US or China winning anything until India's role as a spoiler or facilitator is clear. The US is asking that India be a a facilitator (whether or not Pakis want to do that). Direct involvement of China in Pakistan is miniscule compared to the US and China I believe has not had to face most of the issues that the US is facing in Pakistan. I fully agree with anyone who says that the Chinese have been antagonistic towards India and can be expected to continue that way. But an assumption that the Chinese will have an easy time in Pakistan is not something that I find easy to accept.
Last edited by shiv on 21 Feb 2011 10:18, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Feb. 12, 2

Post by Prem »

Russia's Foreign Intelligence Service (SVR) is warning that the situation on the sub-continent has turned "grave" as it appears that open warfare is about to break out between Pakistan and the United States, The European Union Times reports.The SVR warned in its report that the apprehension of 36-year-old Davis, who shot dead two Pakistani men in Lahore [ Images ] last month, had fuelled this crisis.According to the report, the combat skills exhibited by Davis, along with documentation taken from him after his arrest, prove that he is a member of US' TF373 black operations unit currently operating in the Afghan War Theatre and Pakistan's tribal areas, the paper said.
While the US insists that Davis is one of their diplomats, and the two men he killed were robbers, Pakistan says that the duo were ISI agents sent to follow him after it was discovered that he had been making contact with Al Qaeda, after his cell phone was tracked to the Waziristan tribal area bordering Afghanistan, the paper said.
The most ominous point in this SVR report is "Pakistan's ISI stating that top-secret CIA documents found in Davis's possession point to his, and/or TF373, providing to al Qaeda terrorists "nuclear fissile material" and "biological agents", which they claim are to be used against the United States itself in order to ignite an all-out war in order to re-establish the West's hegemony over a global economy that is warned is just months away from collapse," the paper added
http://www.rediff.com/news/report/cia-s ... 110220.htm
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Feb. 12, 2

Post by habal »

China can never excercise similar leverage on India via Pakistan like unkil. The reasons are many and frankly quite basic.

this much has been recognised and acknowledged by the top leadership in India long back inspite of past history of differences with China.

Unlike unkil, China is a neighbour to India & though India has been pretty relaxed vis-a-vis China's intransigencies linked to Pakistan. China knows well, that this can change quite quickly if pushed. In such a scenario, China will lose rather heavily. Kubulai took some time to overcome the Sung, and it was tough, but in the end it was overcome. Unlike how posters in this forum perceive India (impotent & flailing), India's neighbours have a better perception and know quite well the manner and scale by which India has quelled internal insurgencies and aided external destablisation. This may be hidden from Indian eyes quite effectively through media manipulation but external govts keep an hawks eye on these to gauge a nations potential and possible fault lines and are better able to judge the real situation. So imho India is no pushover and holds significant nuisance potential should it put its mind to it if it's leaders disengage from dealership and profiteering and at least one of them finds a spine. It's more a function of the 'need-of-the-hour' variable so may not be a 'tall order' in the end. US on other hand shares no land border with India and is not even a player in the vicinity, which stands to lose a great deal from regional implosion. What the US spokespersons are trying to impress upon everybody is how they can lose, but in the end it is just a matter of perception and little tangible loss.

thus they can be more freewheeling and irresponsible while handling subcontinent affairs which ultimately plays into the hands of tspa and has usually seen negative consequences for India.
Last edited by habal on 21 Feb 2011 10:25, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Feb. 12, 2

Post by somnath »

Wise men think alike (or maybe fools seldom differ :wink: )..

US and Iran could become strategic allies – with India's help
http://www.csmonitor.com/Commentary/Opi ... dia-s-help
As the US withdraws from Iraq, stability there and in the Levant is contingent on Iranian cooperation. In Afghanistan, more than 70 percent and 40 percent of NATO’s supplies and fuel, respectively, pass through northern Pakistan. This is the only transport link between the Arabian Sea and International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) troops in Afghanistan, keeping the West beholden to Islamabad’s every whim and its supplies subject to attack within Pakistan.

Multiple benefits
A transport link through Iran would reduce this vulnerability, while easing Islamabad’s own security burden. Coordination with Iran would help bring the Afghan warlords in Tehran’s sphere of influence into the political process, and open up a stable trade route to Central Asia.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Feb. 12, 2

Post by Narad »

Eight killed as coaches collide in Dera Ghazi Khan
The accident occurred when one coach crashed into a trawler while trying to overtake the other coach. {WTF} The second coach could not maintain its balance and crashed into the overtaking coach. :eek:
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Feb. 12, 2

Post by Anujan »

The Paki Ajmal Kasab's death sentence has been upheld by the High Court.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Feb. 12, 2

Post by abhishek_sharma »

NYT Editorial pontificates on Paki N-Weapons, so the State department is behind it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/21/opinion/21mon1.html
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Feb. 12, 2

Post by habal »

Prem wrote: The most ominous point in this SVR report is "Pakistan's ISI stating that top-secret CIA documents found in Davis's possession point to his, and/or TF373, providing to al Qaeda terrorists "nuclear fissile material" and "biological agents", which they claim are to be used against the United States itself in order to ignite an all-out war in order to re-establish the West's hegemony over a global economy that is warned is just months away from collapse," the paper added
http://www.rediff.com/news/report/cia-s ... 110220.htm[/quote]

this TF373(TA) may well be a CIA within CIA specifically tasked to carry out black-ops in persuance of some yet unclear global objectives.

these crude nukes may well be used against West or even India via Jihadi footsoldiers.

Again this is what is the main difference between unkil & China wrt India. A China will never think about using biological agents or dirty nukes in its neighbourhood unlike unkil who can do whatever and still have nothing to lose except something notional. This is the most dangerous equation.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Feb. 12, 2

Post by Anujan »

habal wrote:A China will never think about using biological agents or dirty nukes in its neighbourhood unlike unkil who can do whatever and still have nothing to lose except something notional. This is the most dangerous equation.
Given half a chance the Chinese will gas their own population. What to say about its "neighbourhood" ?
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Feb. 12, 2

Post by habal »

Anujan wrote:
habal wrote:A China will never think about using biological agents or dirty nukes in its neighbourhood unlike unkil who can do whatever and still have nothing to lose except something notional. This is the most dangerous equation.
Given half a chance the Chinese will gas their own population. What to say about its "neighbourhood" ?
they are too much conscious about how Chinese are perceived outside China but do not care much for their own people. Their gassing their own is not indicative of how they have conducted their foreign policy till now.

Communist regimes have a quality that they eventually despise their own populace & treat them as disposable.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Feb. 12, 2

Post by rohitvats »

Three points:

1 - in 1971 India had every bit of plan to emansculate western pakistan....Nixon-Kissinger did not allow that to happen. The USSR also expressed limitations in terms of using veto power.

2 - the India Today article is a big flight of fantasy....however, the events about Jan.2002 are likely to be true to an extend.

3 - China supplying defense equipment to TSPA - while high end items like JF-17 are OK as there is no alternative, for other things, TSPA aims to go for the best possible solution. Al-Khalid is customized for TSPA and so does JF-17.....TSPA would ideally like the money to spend as they wish; they go for Chinese stuff only to fill the numbers. As it is, on a larger scale, there is going to be incompatibility. TSPA has previous experience of using Chinese stuff; the divisions so raised were derisively called the "China Division" and the whole lot of equipment - especially the T-59 - had very serious serviceability problems.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Feb. 12, 2

Post by somnath »

rohitvats wrote:1 - in 1971 India had every bit of plan to emansculate western pakistan
Any source?
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Feb. 12, 2

Post by rohitvats »

somnath wrote:
rohitvats wrote:1 - in 1971 India had every bit of plan to emansculate western pakistan
Any source?
Please check the posts by A_Gupta in previous page. Also, the declassified documents from that era clealry point this out - the US anxiety about India bashing pakistan in west. Remember, 2 Corps had been shifted back to west - before the end of war in east- to pick up the 1st Armored and 14th Infantry Divison.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Feb. 12, 2

Post by Nihat »

somnath wrote:Wise men think alike (or maybe fools seldom differ :wink: )..

US and Iran could become strategic allies – with India's help
http://www.csmonitor.com/Commentary/Opi ... dia-s-help
As the US withdraws from Iraq, stability there and in the Levant is contingent on Iranian cooperation. In Afghanistan, more than 70 percent and 40 percent of NATO’s supplies and fuel, respectively, pass through northern Pakistan. This is the only transport link between the Arabian Sea and International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) troops in Afghanistan, keeping the West beholden to Islamabad’s every whim and its supplies subject to attack within Pakistan.

Multiple benefits
A transport link through Iran would reduce this vulnerability, while easing Islamabad’s own security burden. Coordination with Iran would help bring the Afghan warlords in Tehran’s sphere of influence into the political process, and open up a stable trade route to Central Asia.
A US-India-Iran strategic allignment or sorts is very desirable indeed although seems far fetched as of now. Things can change very fast in geo-politics so there is some hope and if some of our leaders can impress upon washington the importance of sorting out differences with Iran. The approach which washington has taken towards Iran, should have been taken against TSP in the first place i.e. Sanctions, trade blockage, threat of war etc, especially given that TSP has done much worse and been rewarded for it.

I hope India talks and US listens with both ears on the Iran issue. It'll also help significantly reduce the threat to Israel if US has leaverage in both nations.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Feb. 12, 2

Post by somnath »

^^^there are some reports and interpretations of declassified documents recently, especially of the so-called "CIA agent" in the cabinet...But the Soviet support was always for the Bangladesh war - the same documents reveal that the Russians had extracted a concession to that effect...JN Dixit, in his "India and Pakistan in War and PEace" talks of the same - and his is a first person account....So even if there was some political intent, the military intent/capacity/planning is far from definite..
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Feb. 12, 2

Post by somnath »

Nihat wrote:A US-India-Iran strategic allignment or sorts is very desirable indeed although seems far fetched as of now
No need for an "strategic alignment" at all...a tactical arrangement on the limited issue is good enough - the US and Iran (as also Israel!) have previous experience in tango-ing on those lines! :wink:
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Feb. 12, 2

Post by James B »

Image

LAHORE: Some 150 youths gathered at the Liberty roundabout on Sunday in a protest organised via social networking site Facebook, to demand that Pakistan scrap its democratic political system and replace it with an “Islamic” system of governance. :rotfl:
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Feb. 12, 2

Post by Rajdeep »



A very large conspiracy to start Pak-US War

Got to see it to believe it.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Feb. 12, 2

Post by partha »

James B wrote:Image

LAHORE: Some 150 youths gathered at the Liberty roundabout on Sunday in a protest organised via social networking site Facebook, to demand that Pakistan scrap its democratic political system :rotfl: and replace it with an “Islamic” system of governance. :rotfl:
Smiley Correction.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Feb. 12, 2

Post by PrasadZ »

Anujan wrote:
habal wrote:A China will never think about using biological agents or dirty nukes in its neighbourhood unlike unkil who can do whatever and still have nothing to lose except something notional. This is the most dangerous equation.
Given half a chance the Chinese will gas their own population. What to say about its "neighbourhood" ?
America is still the only country to have used a nuke and probably the only country to have used biological weapons as well. Haban is right - communist countries have a record of killing their own people that democratic countries tend to match in killing others. I do not doubt that China can be a mad dog but, as far as the US-Pak angle is concerned, they are no madder than country number 1 and, just by being in the neighborhood, may actually end up being a whole lot better.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Feb. 12, 2

Post by shiv »

abhishek_sharma wrote:NYT Editorial pontificates on Paki N-Weapons, so the State department is behind it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/21/opinion/21mon1.html
One quote below to show how deluded this state dept mouthpiece is and how much they feel India and Pakistan are similar
Washington also needs to urge the two militaries to start talking
In the eyes of the writer of this farticle the Indian military, like the Pakistan military lies on a separate plane from the civilian government and need to do some private talking of their own.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Feb. 12, 2

Post by abhishek_sharma »

At this stage, I am so tired of western media that I rarely read their newspapers. The 'Faking News' website provides better news. Really. (No sarcasm here).
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Feb. 12, 2

Post by Johann »

shiv wrote: One quote below to show how deluded this state dept mouthpiece is and how much they feel India and Pakistan are similar
Washington also needs to urge the two militaries to start talking
In the eyes of the writer of this farticle the Indian military, like the Pakistan military lies on a separate plane from the civilian government and need to do some private talking of their own.
I don't think so Shiv.

The Americans very seriously pursue military to military contact with the PLA in the hope of
a) influencing the PLA and Chinese security policy
b) reducing or preempting military-driven confrontations in currently sensitive areas while hoping to reduce the spread of such tension to new areas.

As usual the Americans assume that whatever they think works for them will work for everyone else as well.

What they're hoping is that increased PA contact with the IA will reduce Pakistani paranoia and defuse the situation.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Feb. 12, 2

Post by VikramS »

shiv:

1. Agree with you about Gwadar (NWFP/FATA/Baluchistan in general). However, do not see the same instability in Karachi. It is after all TSP's biggest port and most of TSP's trade goes through Karachi. Further the local mafia wars seem to be out of hand to us, but if all the parties get a share of the hafta, the transit paths will be safe. Not many NATO trucks meet their end in Karachi, or do they?

2. The KKH was ready more than two decades ago. It may not be that super-duper highway but it still works. Note that this is not expected to be a Mall/MG Road but a route dedicated to the transportation of goods; so even if stretches are tough (or even single direction at a time), it still does the job.

3. The expertise and the ability of the Chinese to build massive projects has grown enormously over the past two decades. The time taken to make the KKH should not be the yardstick to judge any future projects. They may be able to fix the most critical sections of the KKH and make them all weather much faster. Even if it takes a decade as your sources suggest, it is not that long a period, especially if it happens simultanously with the change of sugar-daddies.

4. What is or was unsafe for the Chinese when the US was calling the shots, may no longer be unsafe if the space is ceded by the US. One big reason why Uncle is willing to make those wasteful expenses is to keep China out. The two major friends also compete with each other for the affection of the TSP.

5. On a more basic level, the US/Western vision and the Islamic vision of TSP are at complete loggerheads. OTOH I do not see the same level of conflict with the CCP way of life. Both understand and use the power of the gun, and are not afraid to use unfathomable violence to achieve their goals (e.g. Pol Pot).

6. With the right financial incentives, I do not see a reason why an Islamist will not deal with the CCP. After all the Islamic bomb is essentially the Chinese bomb. If they can co-operate on them, then everything else is much simple. All the CCP is waiting for is the right time to make the moves.

7. Perhaps as a result of the time you spent studying the TSP, you put too much emphasis on the internal fissures within the TSP. The same fissures were not as visible ten years ago; they might fade away in another decade.

8. IMHO: The most important takeaway is that there may be a paradigm shift if Uncle cedes; the old rules may no longer apply. Further the lack of success on the Gwadar front in the last decade should not be seen as the end. The CCP also perhaps learnt where the writ of the TSP state runs, and where it doesn't.

9. My personal view is that the US is not going to give up and run from AfPak. There is too much at stake. But at the same time, I do not view the increasing CCP influence as benign to India. And I see very few obstacles to the CCP increasing its influence if and when, Uncle decides to cede.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Feb. 12, 2

Post by Johann »

The PA is going to reject America before America rejects the PA.

The PA's primary goal is to retain power and the domestic legitimacy that underlies it.

America's relationship with Pakistan is largely based on the PA's willingness to go after its own allies, or to permit the Americans to after them.

That is a problem for the PA, and keeps getting more serious.

The day is coming when the PA will draw as much domestic political capital from being seen to fight America as it gains from being seen to fight India.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Feb. 12, 2

Post by Gagan »

This is OT for this thread, but the Chinese seem to be making moves to rescind their own "NO FIRST USE" wrt Nuclear weapons.

Weather this is in response to India's own caveat's added to NFU or some other global development is unclear.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Feb. 12, 2

Post by PrasadZ »

VikramS wrote: 5. On a more basic level, the US/Western vision and the Islamic vision of TSP are at complete loggerheads. OTOH I do not see the same level of conflict with the CCP way of life. Both understand and use the power of the gun, and are not afraid to use unfathomable violence to achieve their goals (e.g. Pol Pot).
Just a few nitpicks.
The Khmer Rouge were defeated by the Vietnamese army with help from the Soviet Union. While SU/Vietnam tried to install a successor regime, it was the US and UN that recognised the deposed Pol Pot against them between 1976 and 1979. Neither US nor PRC come out smelling of roses from the incident, if you see where this goes. If PRC "understand and use the power of the gun", so did the US. The USAF bombings at Menu killed 40000 people and helped the Khmer Rouge come to power. If PRC is accused of being "not afraid to use unfathomable violence to achieve their goals", neither, I am afraid, is the US.
If the claim is that "US/Western vision and the Islamic vision of TSP are at complete loggerheads", for godssake, they were at complete amity against the SU, were they not?! As a matter of fact, that fight was projected as the god fearing against the godless communists, is it not?
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Feb. 12, 2

Post by BhairavP »

I don't get this NFU funda. What's to prevent me from using nukes first, despite declaring to the world that I will not use them first? When did the Chinese ever honour their own guarantees anyway?
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