Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 12 Feb 2011 09:03

IAI, DRDO on Course to Integrate Barak-8 on the First Vessel in 2012
February 11, 2011
http://defense-update.com/wp/20110211_i ... arak8.html

Test firing of the Barak 8 missile is expected this year. “Testing will be conducted in India and is part of the responsibilities of our strategic partner in this program, India’s Defense Research & Development Organization (DRDO)” IAI officials told Defense-Update. The missile is on schedule to complete development and be integrated on board the first combat vessels by 2012.

After being inducted into service, the system will continue development and phased improvement, toward its full operational capability phase. Barak 8 is designed to be fielded on both Israel and Indian Navy vessels.

In 2006 Israel and India embarked on a strategic cooperation in developing a new naval air defense system that will address the specific, common requirements of both Israel and Indian navies. The system, known as Barak-8 introduces a revolutionary concept of ‘network-centric air defense’, incorporating the best technologies India and Israel could offer.

Such technologies include superior missile interceptors, the latest technology phased array radars, state-of-the-art command, control and communications, integrated with missionized land-based and airborne command and control, coupled with unmanned aerial sensors.

Three years ago the program expanded this concept, adding another dimension to the Indo-Israeli cooperation, embarking on the Medium-Range Surface-to-Air missile (MRSAM) system, protecting strategic targets on land. Both programs are progressing well as IAI’s partners in India are actively involved and taking part in every phase of the development.

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 12 Feb 2011 09:07

India has technology to defend satellites: Saraswat
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 475619.cms

BANGALORE: India did not believe in space wars but had all the technology required to integrate systems to defend its satellites, V K Saraswat , Scientific Advisor to the Defence Minister, said on Friday.

"Our country does not have a policy to attack anybody in space. We don't believe in it. But as part of the Ballistic Missile Defence Programme, we have all the technology elements which are required to integrate a system through which we can defend our satellites or take care of future requirements."

As a country, "we do not believe in space wars", he said in response to a query whether India had anti-satellite weapon capabilities.

India did not have a formal anti-satellite weapon policy of attacking satellites in space, but was well geared in case of any eventuality, he told reporters here.

Giving updates on the various defence programmes, he said the 'Nirbhay' project, relating to a subsonic medium range cruise missile, is undergoing integration and the first flight trial is expected early next year.

Discussing the Hypersonic cruise missile, he said it was one of the most complex technologies under development with only two countries -- US and Australia -- having done it so far. He said the engine for the missile had undergone a test of 20-second duration on the ground and had performed "reasonably well".

He expected that in early next year the flight test of Hypersonic Cruise Vehicle can be conducted in which they would be able to demonstrate the flight engine at an altitude of 30 kms.

Giving an update on Agni-V missile, he said all the rocket rotors, first stage, second stage and third stage have been developed. "We will ground test it," he said adding the software and hardware essential for control of guidance for a long-range missile is being developed.

"We expect that by end of this year we will have the first flight of Agni-V," he said.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 12 Feb 2011 09:53

Had an opportunity to have an interesting chat with Dr Pillai during AeroIndia , most I am not in liberty to share but one interesting aspect of recent Brahmos test is they managed to lower the low level trajectory to 5 m compared to 10m which was the case , Dr Pillai mentioned that Brahmos is the the first missile to achieve this feat of flying this low.

I got a hint that there could be Mark 4 variant that would be tested , Dr Pillai mentioned to me that you will come to know when its tested ( on mark 4 )

More power to Brahmos

negi · Post by **negi** » 13 Feb 2011 22:17

^ What's the range at 5m ASL (and is this true for AShM onlee) ?

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 13 Feb 2011 22:30

He expected that in early next year the flight test of Hypersonic Cruise Vehicle can be conducted in which they would be able to demonstrate the flight engine at an altitude of 30 kms.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 13 Feb 2011 22:54

Sorry for raising this question again, but has K15 or Shaurya been defined as hypersonic cruise missile by anyone from the defence establishment ?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 13 Feb 2011 23:06

N0. However the flight profile of horizontal traverse is typical of that class.

rgsrini · Post by **rgsrini** » 13 Feb 2011 23:17

Singha wrote:did anyone notice the pic of Rustom-1 UAV in tarmak looks radically different from the boxy slab sided model shown earlier...
so who put it on a diet?

Singhaji,
I believe the Rustom-1 UAV on tarmac is HALE (High altitude version) and the low diet version which was flight tested is MALE (Medium Altitude version).

There is a AI 2011 photo circulating showing the newer version of Rustom-1 (HALE ?). More refined and curvy than the boxy prototype displayed in the previous AI. It is also on LiveFist. I will try to find it and post it here.

Added later:
Ok. the diet version is called Rustom-1 and the blue model on Tarmac is Rustom-H. Here is a link explaining the difference between them.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEPY/T ... OM-H-2.JPG

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 13 Feb 2011 23:18

There hasn't been any hint in Aero India either ? Considering the fact the test launches of cruise missiles is not announced, what can be made out in this case ?

Regarding Hypersonic Brahmos, what's supposed to be it's CEP, specially against moving targets like ships ? and is it even possible to fly just 5 meters above ground at such speeds ? Or above water for that matter ? Is FOD of no concern in this case ?
So many questions :-s

Avinandan · Post by **Avinandan** » 14 Feb 2011 00:30

rgsrini wrote:
Singha wrote:did anyone notice the pic of Rustom-1 UAV in tarmak looks radically different from the boxy slab sided model shown earlier...
so who put it on a diet?
Singhaji,
I believe the Rustom-1 UAV on tarmac is HALE (High altitude version) and the low diet version which was flight tested is MALE (Medium Altitude version).

There is a AI 2011 photo circulating showing the newer version of Rustom-1 (HALE ?). More refined and curvy than the boxy prototype displayed in the previous AI. It is also on LiveFist. I will try to find it and post it here.

Are any details (that includes payload and minimum landing length) of both the Rustom versions ?
Apologies if this has been asked earlier.

rgsrini · Post by **rgsrini** » 14 Feb 2011 00:42

^^^
Hope this link from livefist provides you some of the information you are looking for (including some of the payloads). Not sure about landing length.

http://livefist.blogspot.com/search?q=rustom-H

Rustom-H, Max Altitude: 35000 ft. Endurance 24 hrs
Rustom-1, Max Altitude: 25000 ft. Endurance 12 hrs.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 14 Feb 2011 09:26

negi wrote:^ What's the range at 5m ASL (and is this true for AShM onlee) ?

For one it wont be doing a sustained 5 m , its trajectory for low level flight is stated as 5 - 15 m , the lowest level will start at the terminal stage once it acquires the target and knows it it hitting it , for the low level flight the range is around 110-120 km.

I did confirmed with Dr Pillai the hypersonic missile range will be withing MTCR limits like Brahmos.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Feb 2011 09:32

a Mach8 missile with a hardened casing around warhead section diving from above should be able to penetrate tens of feet of soil and meters of thick concrete before exploding both the warhead and unburnt rocket fuel.

good for taking out known locations of underground command centers and armament storages.

my vision is a Mach4 hard target penetrator missile delivered from Su30 (6 each) with a range of 75km that has IIR guidance to locate and attack targets like hardened aircraft shelters on a airbase and a 'wolfpack' datalink to avoid multiple hits on same target. so two Su30s fire off 12 in direction of a airfield and these 12 formate into a pack and strike 12 such shelters located all over the base or whatever targets they are programmed to seek out (one could be set to seek out the ATC tower, one for the fuel farm tanks...)

negi · Post by **negi** » 14 Feb 2011 09:43

Austin but is it for land attack version i.e. BlockII ? or Dr. Pillai was reiterating the capabilities of the AShm version only ? 5m for a land attack version is indeed very good news.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 14 Feb 2011 09:56

negi wrote:Austin but is it for land attack version i.e. BlockII ? or Dr. Pillai was reiterating the capabilities of the AShm version only ? 5m for a land attack version is indeed very good news.

I did not specifically ask which version but from what I recollect it is for latter version i.e block 3 so yes land attack version. ( the block 3 he told me was a steep dive and something you can use in hilly terrain )

I dont see your point though if it works for AntiShip version it will work for land attack version as well or vice verse , the 5 m starts at terminal run which might just vary depending on the terrain where the target is located.

Added Later: The 5m is more useful for anti-ship version then any thing else , the lower it flies against ships with multiple sensors and ciws of different type the better ,the only other missile that can fly lower ~ 3 m are the subsonic type like Kh-35,harpoon etc , defending and defeating Brahmos with these capabilities will be nightmarish situation for any one but the most well equipped empire.

narayana · Post by **narayana** » 14 Feb 2011 11:44

Any news on further tests of 'Shaurya' last test happened very long back,IMHO

srai · Post by **srai** » 14 Feb 2011 11:56

Nihat wrote:From Livefist:

India's Nirbhay subsonic medium range cruise missile (MRCM) was supposed to have been visible this year at Aero India. Unfortunately it isn't. However, the programme is finally all set for its first test flight early next year. I asked DRDO chief VK Saraswat about the programme. He said, "The missile is under integration. All systems, subsystems, software for guidance and control etc are ready."

On the little-known high supersonic long-range cruise missile (LRCM - image above) revealed first here on Livefist, Dr Saraswat said a first flight of India's scramjet-powered hypersonic test demonstration platform would be tested at an altitude of 30-km and speed of 7 Mach early next year.
Great news about Nirbhay, once inducted this will be perhaps the most important missile to the Indian Arsenal - it's below the nuke threshold, cheap (comparativly), easily transportable and should be produced in bulk. Not to mention absolutly vital to any blitzkreig assault on deep enemy positions in <48 hrs. timeframe.

also, has the above mentioned LRCM been discussed on BR. I never heard of this program before

Will any of these new cruise missiles fit into the internal bay of the 5th gen aircrafts - FGFA and AMCA?

IMO, new R&D effort must go into cruise missiles/PGMs that can fit into the internal bays of the planned 5th gen aircrafts of the IAF.

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 17 Feb 2011 14:54

Nirbhay

India's Nirbhay subsonic cruise missile will make its first flight during 2012

With a planned launch weight of around 1,000kg (2,200lb), the Nirbhay will use a terrain-following navigation system to reach its target at distances up to 1,000km (540nm). The weapon will carry multiple warheads, according to the DRDO

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 18 Feb 2011 08:47

Barak-8, Derby with booster, Derby, Iron dome, Python-5 and Barak-1
Aero India 2011

Source

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 18 Feb 2011 08:58

^^^ The Python 5 has unusually large number of control surfaces near its nose.

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 18 Feb 2011 08:59

^^^ Derby with booster would be for SPYDER

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 18 Feb 2011 09:12

Yes more like SPYDER-MR , PSG states that Barak-8 will have a dual mode seeker ( IIR + ARH ) , if true this would be very interesting, Did any one manage to get info on Barak-8 ?

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 18 Feb 2011 09:32

Can the Derby with Booster be used from AIrcraft to get over its shorter Legs compared to AMRAAM? I am asking since Derby will be fitted on LCA.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 18 Feb 2011 11:26

karan_mc wrote:K-15 test rescheduled to Jan 31

Did they test it?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Feb 2011 12:26

looking at the huge size of derby vs even the barak8 makes me think like akash the true story is beyond just its stated modest range. it might pack enough propellent to go on powered phase longer than similar ranged AAMs , thus having a bigger effective range/no escape zone than many out there?

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 18 Feb 2011 12:44

To compare ranges we will first have to be sure that the propellants on both are of similar effectiveness.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 22 Feb 2011 14:17

Astra captive trials video on livefist
Guys unable to hear clearly what the guy is saying in the first part of the video, can anyone with a bats ears point out what the person is saying in the first half please?

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 22 Feb 2011 15:58

^^^^^ I think the person is explaining the captive trial I hear "sorties done" and "including steep dive down to ensure that we have adequate aeromechanical.....", that's all I was able to make out.

Specs of Astra are very impressive, what does Gurus have to say about this ????

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 22 Feb 2011 16:15

The latest AMRAAM and R-77 has a range of ~ 110 km , the 120C7 may even have longer range , they are comparing specs of AIM-120 and R-77 which is nearly 15 years old. The MICA has a range of greater than 60 Km

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 22 Feb 2011 17:07

The 100 km works only against KAL Flight 007 and Iran Air 655, ie, steady speed targets at altitude. Real world ranges are described here http://beta.thehindu.com/news/national/article78751.ece, though these too are design specs. The info above is realistic.

sum · Post by **sum** » 22 Feb 2011 17:11

^^ So the ranges in the ppt are actual, non-brochure figures ( which are usually classified) which the IAF has noted in actual usage( for Derby, R-77, AMRAAM ( from intel sources of Pak etc) )?

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 22 Feb 2011 17:20

Astra Mk1 is 80 kms. head-on and Astra Mk2 is 100+ kms. head-on. All are design numbers revealed publicly.

Mihir.D · Post by **Mihir.D** » 22 Feb 2011 17:29

merlin wrote:Astra Mk1 is 80 kms. head-on and Astra Mk2 is 100+ kms. head-on. All are design numbers revealed publicly.

Don't mind but the display does not say head on or tail chase.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 22 Feb 2011 17:45

tsarkar wrote:The 100 km works only against KAL Flight 007 and Iran Air 655, ie, steady speed targets at altitude. Real world ranges are described here http://beta.thehindu.com/news/national/article78751.ece, though these too are design specs. The info above is realistic.

Well that might be true for all system , the list put up by DRDO just tends to use old specs of these systems which makes Astra look better in the number game. AMRAAM and R-77 are certainly more evolved in this game with different blocks developed over period of 15-20 years.

John · Post by **John** » 22 Feb 2011 23:09

Singha wrote:looking at the huge size of derby vs even the barak8 makes me think like akash the true story is beyond just its stated modest range. it might pack enough propellent to go on powered phase longer than similar ranged AAMs , thus having a bigger effective range/no escape zone than many out there?

In case of Akash unless you switch to solid propellant you are not going to get much range out of ramjet engine. Plus missiles like barak-8 optimize their flight path to increase range, where as Command guided missile like Akash which would fly at a direct path to the target.

srai · Post by **srai** » 23 Feb 2011 01:05

dinesha wrote:
Barak-8, Derby with booster, Derby, Iron dome, Python-5 and Barak-1
Aero India 2011 Source

Given that the size of the Barak-8 relative to the Derby and Python-5 is not that much greater, it could be quite easily carried by the Su-30MKI. Maybe this could be IAF's VLR AAM (Very Long Range Air-to-Air Missiles) with a range exceeding 200km.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 23 Feb 2011 05:02

These models may not be accurate sizes.

John · Post by **John** » 23 Feb 2011 23:52

Not sure about derby with booster but i think the models size proportion is correct (atleast compared to each other).

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Feb 2011 08:30

for a wvr missile the python5 is huge and has lot of control surfaces for sharp turns....a good addition and replacement to R73 IAF-wide methinks...

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 24 Feb 2011 09:27

These mocks up are most likely real stuff in dimension etc , to watch then closely its huge and unbelievable